The death of freedom

[baddo 0]

I'm wondering,

are American website forums generally more restrictive regarding what you can say compared to for example European website forums?

I don't want to make a judgement yet, I need more opinions than mine to do that.

Thank You for your opinion.

[AWDrift 0]

American forums vary too much to really generalise them. You get some really weird disturbing **** in some places(like gay spongebob porn). Once you start digging through the sites you get the extremes of both sides.

[baddo 0]

The place I've seen isn't about any weird subject.

It is a forum owned by a commercial company. I won't mention exactly which forum, it's not necessary here.

A topic is allowed there, but it is not possible to discuss it properly because some of the keywords closely related to the topic are banned    and the words are no-where near swearing or offensive in my opinion.

It's like "you can have this topic here but don't talk directly about it". I was wondering, why allow such topics at all if they feel that there is something "politically incorrect" in the topic itself, and thus they have a need to delete most of the posts.

I think censorship goes too far in that case.

But I give Americans the benefit of the doubt, I've seen one very bad case of censorship now but that doesn't mean others are like that too. I would mainly compare now forums which are run by commercial companies, and not hobby forums.

What I'm a little bit worried about is that USA should be a country in which freedom of speech is valued and protected highly, but sometimes I feel like there are some very serious problems of hypocrisy and censorship there. When I've seen Americans advertize their "liberty" and "freedom of speech" I have every single time wondered "so what do they have over the place I am living in?" because I have never in my life felt restricted here where I've born and lived my life (the defensive bloodshed against USSR helped I think, if they would've conquered this land then things wouldn't have gone so smoothly for me).

My feeling at this time is that if I move to USA, I would in fact be more restricted than here in Finland. But only experience would tell me if that would really be the case. This feeling isn't based on this one case of forum censorship, it is the sum of the things I have learned about USA.

Just thinking about it, I am not a judge here about this topic at all, would like to hear what others think. Insider opinions are valued.

[MehMan 0]

American forums vary too much to really generalise them. You get some really weird disturbing **** in some places(like gay spongebob porn). Once you start digging through the sites you get the extremes of both sides.

Pfft, that stuff hasn't been on 4chan for a while. At least on /b/. But if you think gay spongebob porn is disturbing then I presume you haven't been on 4chan.

[Spokesperson 0]

always your same blablabla. please go in china or russia and let us poor stupid and manipulated occidentals.  

Quote[/b] ]Before China liberated Tibet

sorry to write that. but you are just an asshole. if you like this kind of government north-korea is waiting for you.

See the politics topic and you'll hear what the situation is like by a Russian guy himself. Opinion polls say his opinion is the most common.

Before China liberated Tibet, it was a religious and feodal dictatorship ruled by Dalai Lama. China put an end to tibetian feodal oppression. They changed that and introduced capitalism. So there's still oppression, but capitalism is better than feodalism.

[baddo 0]

always your same blablabla. please go in china or russia and let us poor stupid and manipulated occidentals.  

Quote[/b] ]Before China liberated Tibet

sorry to write that. but you are just an asshole. if you like this kind of government north-korea is waiting for you.

See the politics topic and you'll hear what the situation is like by a Russian guy himself. Opinion polls say his opinion is the most common.

Before China liberated Tibet, it was a religious and feodal dictatorship ruled by Dalai Lama. China put an end to tibetian feodal oppression. They changed that and introduced capitalism. So there's still oppression, but capitalism is better than feodalism.

I'm curious to learn more about this.

Was the liberation of Tibet done by China a similar thing like the Soviets tried to do to Finland during WW II?

As in, the Soviet propaganda told us that they are liberating us. And we refused to be liberated to their surprise. Well, that was Soviet propaganda. I don't know how much they believed in it. If they did believe in what they were saying then they had missed something crucial about our society.

How did it go in Tibet? Did they welcome the Chinese with open arms or did they have significant resistance?

[-Snafu- 78]

There ain't no point in debating with him. He already made up his mind long ago. Maybe he was run over by a business man in a BMW or something. People like me, Baddo and MehMan would condemn a mass slaughter caused by any Government no matter what their political leaning was. But for Spokes a Communist/Socialist nation could go in and rape every pregnant woman in a nation and he would say 'it's okay they are defending the revolution'. Just like he said about the Purges. Which was obvious BS to anyone with an ounce of common sense. Bet he would change his mind if he was on the receiving end though. It's like that saying; 'the ones who want war have never experienced it.'

With the Winter War in Finland. Anyone in that nation who dreamed about the glory of socialism must have got a shock when Soviet bombers hit population centres. Killing the people they were supposed to be saving. Destroying their homes and lives. Oh wait a minute. The Soviets said that they did not bomb any population centres and caused no civvy casualties. They must be right of course. The Finnish must have blown it all up themselves despite needing all the munitions for fighting the Soviets. Oh those damn "liberals".

Since Spokes started debating on these forums a few months ago, thanks to him, I utterly hate Socialism and Communism now.

[Spokesperson 0]

According to wiki:

Quote[/b] ]Before 1951, according to anthropologists, a vast majority of the people of Tibet were serfs ("mi ser"),[78][79][80][81] often bound to land owned by monasteries and aristocrats. Tibetans in exile have claimed that the serfs and their masters formed only a small part of Tibetan society, and argued that Tibet would have modernized itself without China's intervention. However, the Chinese government claims that most Tibetans were still serfs in 1951,[82], and have proclaimed that the Tibetan government inhibited the development of Tibet during its self-rule from 1913 to 1959, and opposed modernization efforts by the Chinese government.[82]

This 1951 agreement was initially put into effect in the Tibetan regions under Dalai Lama's administration (Ü-Tsang and western Kham). However, Eastern Kham and Amdo(Qinghai) were considered by the Chinese to be outside the administration of the government of Tibet in Lhasa, and were thus treated like any other Chinese province with land redistribution implemented in full. Most lands were taken away from noblemen and monasteries and re-distributed to serfs. As a result, a rebellion led by noblemen and monasteries broke out in Amdo and eastern Kham in June 1956. The insurrection, supported by the American CIA, eventually spread to Lhasa. It was crushed by 1959. During this campaign, tens of thousands of Tibetans were killed. The 14th Dalai Lama and other government principals fled to exile in India, but isolated resistance continued in Tibet until 1972 when the CIA abruptly withdrew its support. After the Lhasa rebellion in 1959, the Chinese government lowered the level of autonomy of Central Tibet, and implemented full-scale land redistribution in all areas of Tibet

The tibetian army ruled by Dalai Lama resisted just like 50 years earlier when the british invaded, but people in general didn't.

Now the issue has turned into one of nationalism, racism and religion on the Tibetian side. I personally don't see those things as good reasons for a riot I would support. Naturally west wants to have a share. A weak and cooperative china is in their interests and has been since the times of Marco Polo. The opium war is probably the first important part of this story.

The USSR never tried to liberate Finland, just some territories vital for the defence of their second largest city. I think we discussed that earlier.

War atrocities were comitted by all fighting sides. But especially by the nazis who would execute whole villages of children women and elderly people.

[Supernova 0]

I have justed watched several documentaries on Banking and the reason we have the death of freedom is due to BANKING.

[MehMan 0]

Bah, not Zeitgiest again. If you believe anything told in Zietgeist you can order a Do-It-Yourself kit for a tin foil hat.

Quote[/b] ]War atrocities were comitted by all fighting sides. But especially by the nazis who would execute whole villages of children women and elderly people.

Soviet retribution was the same, so when it comes to war attrocities all sides have done some, no side is innocent.

Stop quoting wikipedia.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Before China liberated Tibet

And what did the Tibetians gain from it, apart from supression, removal of their religious freedom and distributing their belongings among the chinese ?

Seriously guy, put your propaganda nonsense to where the sun doesn´t shine. That´s the right place for it.

[Guest Ti0n3r]

Well said Balschoiw.

[chops 111]

Spokesperson, on occasion it is good to hear from somebody who sees things very differently, such as yourself.

However, I for one am getting pretty sick of you high-jacking every otherwise interesting topic in this section and turning it into your own personal communist soapbox. Please open your own thread, save it for the student union or start your own cult.

Re Tibet;

It seems to me that the Chinese government view these Olympics as theirs as opposed to their turn to host them. There were reports that the Chinese government had requested that Australia let Chinese troops guard the torch through it's Australian leg. Since been denied but I wouldn't have been surprised.

A few years ago we had Chinese minders telling security guards at parliament house, which MPs and Senators could and couldn't enter (some planned to interrupt the Chinese Premier's speech) their own parliament! A sad day for democracy. Even the fact that the head of a police state was allowed to address our parliament (the speech was given IN the Lower House, not in the Great Hall, as per usual) is a disgrace.

A Chinese consul has even started telling State MPs, which musicals they can and can't go to.

The only thing more sickening than the cruel totalitarianism of the Chinese leaders is the bootlicking of Western politicians, trying to make a buck for their big business mates out of China's development (which is better referred to as industrialisation).

[MehMan 0]

How we got from a controversial video about islam to Tibet I'm not quite sure.

But Tibet has chosen a wrong time to voice their demands. While they are getting media coverage they are not getting closer to their goal because China isn't going to let them go now or in the next 10 years. Their demands for everybody to boycott the Olympic games is also leaving state officials in an odd spot. I believe that the fact that every big country rushed to support Kosovo and recognize it's independance made them think that they will gather enough support to make a stand. But it's just a different situation. China isn't exactly known for treating people nice, so they did expect the reaction. They have done this before, people died, but nobody outside Tibet knew much. Now they lost a lot, their goal is not a lot closer, but the media coverage is far greater than at any other time.

[baddo 0]

I decided to retract my further comments relating to my previous post.

Might be an interesting side-discussion going on here but I don't see it progressing much.

It's going to end up (it already did in fact) with Spokesperson defending communists and others trying to do the opposite. I'm actually a bit tired of that kind of discussions.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Mehman, the topic was never about the video about islam, but it's a topic about FREEDOM, in this particular case about freedom of expression. Which is actually one thing the chinese state is very actively suppressing - apparently even outside it's own borders, as Chops revealed - I must say I was shocked. I mean, I bet whatever is made in China could be done elsewhere, so I cannot understand how so many supposedly respectable nations, as well as their officials, bow to such extremes, when they defend freedom elsewhere - looking at Australia for instance, who made up the brunt of the UN forces that freed East Timor from Indonesia (of course they wouldn't have done it without it being in their interest, but at least they could still be seen as liberators, even if under the UN flag), and yet as Chops reveals their officials bow meekly to such irrational demands by chinese diplomats (which actually aren't diplomatic at all). I hope that rather sooner than later the world will give the chinese government the finger in a clear statement that such practices are no longer tolerated in the world in the 21st century... And China of course wouldn't be the only country that should be targeted, there's Burma as well, just for an example...

Edit: Actually, IMHO, the Olimpics, whose spirit of fair-play sportsmanship is totally contrary to such authoritarian practices, should not be held in China because they don't deserve at all to be the host of such an event, and a boicott of it would indeed be a good sign of protest towards the chinese government and its practices.

[-Snafu- 78]

Quote[/b] ]I mean, I bet whatever is made in China could be done elsewhere

Yes but the public of Western Nations would not be willing to fork out huge sums of money for products that could be a lot cheaper. Workers in Western nations demand good working conditions and decent pay which would cause the price of say, an ipod, to rise quite a bit.

Basically, products made in China are a lot cheaper.

[MehMan 0]

Quote[/b] ]I mean, I bet whatever is made in China could be done elsewhere

Yes but the public of Western Nations would not be willing to fork out huge sums of money for products that could be a lot cheaper. Workers in Western nations demand good working conditions and decent pay which would cause the price of say, an ipod, to rise quite a bit.

Basically, products made in China are a lot cheaper.

If the products were made here the price would rise as an excuse, not because everything is so expensive. Many products are so incredibly overpriced that it's amazing how much we're getting ripped off. But that's another topic.

Quote[/b] ]Mehman, the topic was never about the video about islam, but it's a topic about FREEDOM, in this particular case about freedom of expression.

Ah, I thought the discussion was limited to video and if freedom of expression applies to it.

People bow to China for various reasons, militarly they have nukes, politcally they are crazy, economically they are the manufacturers of many goods most of us have. They can pull some strings, but not all.

Quote[/b] ]It's going to end up (it already did in fact) with Spokesperson defending communists and others trying to do the opposite. I'm actually a bit tired of that kind of discussions.

So am I, but we can actually have a normal discussion if we just ignore him. Don't reply to his posts.

Simply put: Do not feed the troll.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

[OT] China isn't the only asian country that is able to produce cheap goods Korea and Indonesia for instance would LOVE to take up all that trade and manufacturing should the world decide to boycott chinese goods. [/OT]

And thankfully China isn't the only country in the world to have nukes so it's not like they could impose themselves on the whole world holding it hostage. So I think the world showing its discontent towards the practices of the chinese government, would neither be suicidal nor impossible, I think.

[MehMan 0]

The world does go: naughty naughty China. But that's where it ends. While the world could easily boycott China it doesn't, because it's cheaper. It's all about money here, imagine some big company decides to boycott China, they'd have to move all their factories out and somewhere else. And that is wrong. Instead of actions being taken that would actually affect China and make it change we go naughty naughty and then forget about it.

[TWCRASH 0]

Well what a piece of crap that was. Headlines from newspapers woven in with various speeches from radicals, some shocking images (including executions), graphs of the number of muslims in the Netherlands and Europe, and in the 'Netherlands in the future?' part, some shocking punishment images with captions like "Gays", "Women". With all the hype I thought we were getting a carefully grafted documentary, what we got was a low quality hate film. Nice one.

I don't see it as a hate but more so a educational film telling you what the extreme islamic attempt is. After watching this i looked around for other stuff and found "Islam: what the west needs to know" which is even more educational without the shock value. It uses Koran passages and people to support what is being said in the film. Disturbing stuff.

[MehMan 0]

Bah, I wanted to bring up that crap too.

You can easily mark christinaty as a religion full of hate. And watching a documentary that's named What The West Needs To Know is exactly what we don't need. What this means is that you're going to get 1,5h full of same chanting, Islam is going to kill you, bla bla, hate mongering.

[chops 111]

Hard to find a definite line between accepting others cultures and religion and not putting up with sexism/homophobia/violence excused in the name of Islam.

The Catholic Church pretty much excused, covered up and ignored paedophiles in their ranks for years, but that said, I can't remember the Pope issuing a kill-on-site order to Catholics worldwide because somebody somewhere wrote a book.

I can't find a link anywhere, but I remember a news story about a university professor in France, who said that 'Islam is a violent religion'. As he had insulted Islam, some fundy-wundy beardy-wierdy published a map to the professor's house on an islamic website, complete with a demand that somebody behead him.

Sounds like a Monty Python skit.

[MehMan 0]

The Catholic Church pretty much excused, covered up and ignored paedophiles in their ranks for years, but that said, I can't remember the Pope issuing a kill-on-site order to Catholics worldwide because somebody somewhere wrote a book.

I don't think the role of extremist leaders can be exactly equaled to the pope. They're probably equal to Fred Phelps. And as such, Fred Phelps is the same as Islamic extremists.

Quote[/b] ]Hard to find a definite line between accepting others cultures and religion and not putting up with sexism/homophobia/violence excused in the name of Islam.

True, but it also isn't fair to accept an image of violence from a documentary.

My personal opinion about islam is a bit devided. I'm trying my best to not see an extreme angle of islam, but the more I try to find the nice things about islam the more I find nasty things. Like Sharia law. What the hell is that? A woman guilty if she gets raped? Are you kidding me?

But that's for a whole other topic really.