The death of freedom

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

If the in the USA, the land of "freedom of speech," companies begin blocking web sites... what does this mean for the future?

I think this is a valid question.

Surf the web and you will find a bounty of porn, illegal downloads, hate web sites from white supremacists to terrorist sympathizers, and a plethora of violent and arguably disturbing images.

So what would make a U.S.-based Internet company pre-emptively suspended access to a Web site?

I can only guess, but is it fear?

This matter has my mind racing.  Look into it, and you should begin to wonder too.

LINK>>>http://www.fitnathemovie.com/

If you don't know what I'm talking about, start with this and search for more on your own.

LINK>>>Read and start thinking... it is the hope you will ignore this, buy the spin, and not use your own mind to think critically.

I'm not telling you what to think, I'm just asking you to think about it.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Well in this case the website host may be in its right to not divulge that content, because it CAN be interpreted by some to be against the site's Acceptable Use policy - Geert Wilders should have chosen a different host, willing to post such a content - he even may find a host amongst his dutch supporters.

But seriously, all this controversy tells him, and the dutch cartoonist before him, that he may be not that wrong, and since everything is open to criticism anyway, I think that noone should be afraid of expressing his thoughts, no matter what his oppinion is (for everything can be - in a civilized manner - rebuked) .

[shinRaiden 0]

There's two reasons, both of which I do not expect you to either understand or accept, but which I will mention anyway. I presume that your context applies to ISP's, however similar contexts apply to employer-provided access at work etc.

1 - The providers have to them an unacceptable exposure to litigation resulting from usage activities that are not protected as free speech.

2 - Customers actually want those kind of restrictions.

From an IT administrative standpoint, it is far simpler and cheaper to implement an open, un-monitored, and un-filtered connection. However, the potential risk in terms of exposure to litigation by personnel believing that the provider contributed in part by negligence to the actual harassment actions of other personnel, combined with the negative publicity and costs of lost productivity is substantially less than the costs of implementing 'restrictions'.

Similarly, history of past litigation has set a precedent of risk of litigation if the provider allows access to content illegal in the relevant jurisdiction. This has nothing to do with whether the litigation is generally tossed out or not, the very existence of risk of exposure is sufficient for the provider to take preemptive action to reduce exposure to risk. "It's just good business."

At the end user level, it may be unfathomable for you, but there are actually politically and commercially viable sections of the general populace that view assisted self-discipline as a virtue, and not a vice. While on a strictly technical it may seem laughable to attempt to block everything objectionable (take for example a false positive block on a variety of edible Japanese mushrooms, or abuse of html/bbCode to pass content past censoring scripts), that does not reduce the fact that many people do want those filters for reasons that are not negotiable.

Unfortunately, every time this subject comes up, it rapidly devolves into an ugly and insulting flame war. Yes, there are valid points about who gets to determine if there should be limits, and if so, what they should be. By and large, the implementations I have seen have been matters of personal choice. If you do not like your internet provider's choice of access policies, perhaps it is time you either moved out of your parent's basement, or sincerely listened to their reasons for concern for your welfare. You don't have to accept them, I'm just saying it would be highly advantageous in the long run to understand them. There is always another provider willing to give you anything you want. Whether that is actually in your best interest, is a determination you should give more than just a passing consideration.

[Supernova 0]

Quote[/b] ]or sincerely listened to their reasons for concern for your welfare. You don't have to accept them, I'm just saying it would be highly advantageous in the long run to understand them

This is a very very controversial bees nest you are hitting with that stick. I believe that parents say one thing but mean another thing , for example they say we are doing this for you're best interest but it is their opinion of best interest not you'res. Russian parents are especially a bad example of parenting because it is frequent that you will encounter their "stalin" style of ruling/administration , heck I have even experienced it from my own parents. I don't know what more I can write at the moment.

[shinRaiden 0]

Quote[/b] ]or sincerely listened to their reasons for concern for your welfare. You don't have to accept them, I'm just saying it would be highly advantageous in the long run to understand them

This is a very very controversial bees nest you are hitting with that stick. I believe that parents say one thing but mean another thing , for example they say we are doing this for you're best interest but it is their opinion of best interest not you'res. Russian parents are especially a bad example of parenting because it is frequent that you will encounter their "stalin" style of ruling/administration , heck I have even experienced it from my own parents. I don't know what more I can write at the moment.

And I'm sure that the disciplined consumption for medicinal uses of traditional, therapeutic, and patriotic tonics had no factor either in their less than illustrious parenting.

My point, made in sarcasm, was in rebuttal to the "waaa, mommy doesn't want me looking at pr0n" comments made previously. I was trying to make the point that there is the remote possibility that just maybe others have a different world-view than he does (as incredulous as that may seem), and it would be quite beneficial to understand why different people see things differently, instead of whining about how everyone is out to make his life miserable.

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

If you do not like your internet provider's choice of access policies, perhaps it is time you either moved out of your parent's basement, or sincerely listened to their reasons for concern for your welfare.

shinRaiden, as I said, the author of the movie made a poor choice in terms of internet host for the content he is about to publish. But make no mistake, he knows what he is doing by being willing to publish what he intends to, and will of course have to deal with the consequences. Though, the interesting thing is, he may well become a martyr - and what that spells for the extremist views that support him, which in Europe as a whole have been growing, is the real issue. Every martyr makes them stronger, and if you don't think that the past cannot happen again, you better think twice - for the past has a tendency to repeat itself. It is indeed crazy but it could be this very issue that may prompt a repeat of things which have happened already, and may happen again (remember "The Wave"! ) . If whoever is offended by what is going to be published would only answer in kind, then things may be ok. But I think that in Europe at least, one should be "Roman in Rome", meaning Freedom of speech should be respected - and any suppression of it by threats should not, cannot be tolerated.

[Spokesperson 0]

Freedom of Speech only exists on paper. You need money to use it. Those with a lot of money have a lot of freedom to spread their ideas.

[Colossus 2]

Thats one narrow way of looking at it. Did Lenin have large amount of money when he stod up against the Czar? Did Alberto Korda take the picture of Che for large amount of money? And you know what influence that has had ever since.

Freedom of speech isnt about money. Not the speech itself.

[JdB 151]

Did Lenin have large amount of money when he stood up against the Czar?

Well, Lenin wasn't in Russia when the Czar was still in power, as he had been exiled at the time. After the Czar had been deposed, and the Provisional Government had taken over. These wanted to continue the war however, so he was brought back into Russia to fuel the starting revolution (Lenin being backed by the Germans with large sums of money, who were hoping for a quick end to hostilities to be able to concentrate fully on the Western Front) through Scandinavia to St. Petersburg (which was later renamed "Leningrad").

A rather poor example imo.

Regarding the original issue, I find it difficult to determine where freedom of speech (should end) ends, and where discrimination/hatred begins, although I can understand the basic sentiment behind the planned movie, due to the problems we've been having with (predominantly) Islamic immigrants over the last 30 years. Back when the Constitution was established in 1848, they never could have imagined information would be available to such a wide audience at such speed, and with everyone being able to make up their own version of the news. No law exists for this kind of matter that does not damage the freedom of speech. I do believe constitutional rights are/should be valued more than laws.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

I find it difficult to determine where freedom of speech (should end) ends, and where discrimination/hatred begins

Exactly...but...

The point is in America, where freedom of speech is concerned, its not supposed to matter.

Hate speech is not supposed to be restricted so long as it does not insite violence.

If speech is suppressed before it can be gagued by such a test, then you have not even allowed it to be tested.  Therfore you are in oppsosition to freedom of speech. (IMHO)

To supress it out of fear of violent opposition, is cowerdece of the hightest degree.

There is no freedom FROM offence in the constitution. Only the freedom TO offend.

Regardless, my purpose was to foster discusion and thought on the matter.  It appears I have done that.

Thank you for your thoughful responses.  

I don't have to agree with you.  I just have to respect your right to have an opinion, and express it.  

That's what this is all about.

Unfortuneately, the complicated global environment, tied together through a digital medium, is not something that could have been predicted. (As was stated)

But I contest it should not matter. Freedom as described is only made the more fragile by it.

And therefore all the more imperative to preserve.

[Necromancer- 0]

Freedom of speech ends where violence is insited. Wilders does not insite violence. Of course Wilders is very controversial in his words, because it's politically incorrect and that attracts a lot of attention. If anyone murders Wilders, then Wilders practically becomes a martyr for Freedom of Speech.

Nuance is what it's all about. Not every Dutch person supports Wilders ideology, but every Dutch person does fully support freedom of speech.

The Arabic League is planning to make a protest-movie against "Fitna". Which is very good in my opinion, because it starts discussion.

This issue is just a collision of old culture with modern culture. It will end in probably 5 years and modern culture will prevail.

[NeMeSiS 11]

LINK>>>http://www.fitnathemovie.com/

Apparently it has been I havent seen it yet, loads very slow here.

[JdB 151]

LINK>>>http://www.fitnathemovie.com/

Apparently it has been I havent seen it yet, loads very slow here.

Yup. I've given up trying to watch it. Will watch it when the first wave of interest has dissipated. Both pvv.nl (Wilder's political party), as well as geertwilders.nl have gone offline. I assume it's due to the massive number of hits, although I wouldn't be surprised if they have been hacked either. Now where is my damned riotgear

[Colossus 2]

Did Lenin have large amount of money when he stood up against the Czar?

A rather poor example imo.

Yep.. penalty for quick replies. I do hope you got my point though. ^^

[HotShot 0]

Well what a piece of crap that was. Headlines from newspapers woven in with various speeches from radicals, some shocking images (including executions), graphs of the number of muslims in the Netherlands and Europe, and in the 'Netherlands in the future?' part, some shocking punishment images with captions like "Gays", "Women". With all the hype I thought we were getting a carefully grafted documentary, what we got was a low quality hate film. Nice one.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

*Edited*

Please keep your discussion on the topic of freedom, not on the validity of the film itself.

[Placebo 29]

Linking to the movie is grounds for a permanent ban from these forums due to the content it contains. Be warned.

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Understood.  As my original post stated, the topic is about "freedom."  

The example given of the removed website was related to the movie, but NOT meant to start a discussion of the movie itself.

Keep on the original topic of "freedom" or this thread will get the lock-down.

[Sennacherib 0]

I know that you speak about freedom of speech. But there is something more important. in our occidental countries we are free to speak, to live etc etc).

For the moment Tibetans have only a right ---> to die

but this is not important. olympic games are more important, no? like the band Abba said "money, money ......."

Sc@tterbrain, we live in a world of hypocrisy.

[chops 111]

What a load of bullshit!

"OOOoooh let's all be ever so careful not to upset the Muslims!". If ANYBODY is upset about watching a bloody movie they should act like an adult and either not watch it or make one themselves about how wrong the aforementioned movie is.

Besides, if Alah/God/The fuckin Tooth Fairy is so all mighty and powerful, the commander of all life on this planet, surely, surely he could destroy the creator of this film in a blink of an eye!

How can you need more proof that your God is a mere superstition?

This is the same shit that kicked off when there were some cartoons in a newspaper in Northern Europe? Yes that's right, pictures. And the result? Pre-enlightenment savages rioting in the streets, torching that great symbol of Danish cultural imperialism, Kentucky Fried Chicken.

This self-censoring, political correctness stifles dialogue discourse and debate, the very things that set the West above the troubled regions of this weary planet, where writing, painting, saying or drawing the wrong thing can get you killed. And these are the very things that many people are fighting hard to achieve in those same oppressive societies.

It's woeful to think of all of those in Western history, right back to Socrates, who fought to be able to freely speak their minds. We're now apathetically backsliding into tip toeing around barbarians, instead of decrying this behaviour that would earn any errant 5 year a scolding.

I might disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it to the death.

Voltaire

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

I might disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it to the death.

THE STATEMENT of the thread!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!!! Death of Freedom of speech?? Hell no - Death to censorship!!!

(Oops, hope my last sentence wasn't an incitement to violence... Phear...)  

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Good posts!

I tried this same discussion on another forum ...and the results were dismal.  It was mostly young Americans who called the movie hate speech, then used the opportunity to bash other religions in the same post.

Quote[/b] ]World of hypocrisy

is right.

But it’s worse then that.  Ignorance of the world outside what is absorbed through the pea soup of media has turned the minds of westerners to mush.

They cheer on and nod to the bobble-head politicians, allowing themselves to be incrementally boxed in.  I say "they" because my mind is still my own.

We have already reached a time when our leaders act in spite of our beliefs, doing what they damn well please.  And the idiot masses grin, drool and bow.

I have been told not to worry so much, that you can look at the rampant corruption in the early 20th century to see historical "cycles."  I'm having a hard time believing the conditions are so similar.

The collision course seems to be set.  And while that future does not bode well for the common "peasant," history shows the repercussions for the elite (or ruling class) to be rather nasty as well.

Chops, I have found myself disagreeing with your opinions in many previous topics.  That being said, I would gladly do the same to protect your right to anger, shame, insult, or generally piss me off.

Quote[/b] ](Chops @ Mar. 28 2008,16:11)

I might disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it to the death.

-Voltaire

That certainly captures the principle of this topic.

[MehMan 0]

What a load of bullshit!

"OOOoooh let's all be ever so careful not to upset the Muslims!". If ANYBODY is upset about watching a bloody movie they should act like an adult and either not watch it or make one themselves about how wrong the aforementioned movie is.

Besides, if Alah/God/The fuckin Tooth Fairy is so all mighty and powerful, the commander of all life on this planet, surely, surely he could destroy the creator of this film in a blink of an eye!

How can you need more proof that your God is a mere superstition?

This is the same shit that kicked off when there were some cartoons in a newspaper in Northern Europe? Yes that's right, pictures. And the result? Pre-enlightenment savages rioting in the streets, torching that great symbol of Danish cultural imperialism, Kentucky Fried Chicken.

This self-censoring, political correctness stifles dialogue discourse and debate, the very things that set the West above the troubled regions of this weary planet, where writing, painting, saying or drawing the wrong thing can get you killed. And these are the very things that many people are fighting hard to achieve in those same oppressive societies.

It's woeful to think of all of those in Western history, right back to Socrates, who fought to be able to freely speak their minds. We're now apathetically backsliding into tip toeing around barbarians, instead of decrying this behaviour that would earn any errant 5 year a scolding.

I might disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it to the death.

Voltaire

I knew that Bill Hicks couldn't truly be dead.

[Spokesperson 0]

Thats one narrow way of looking at it. Did Lenin have large amount of money when he stod up against the Czar? Did Alberto Korda take the picture of Che for large amount of money? And you know what influence that has had ever since.

Freedom of speech isnt about money. Not the speech itself.

At that time there was no freedom of speech, even after the czar's resignation. And there were special social circumstances at that time. Feodalism collapsed no matter how much money was invested to fight the people. And the german Lenin money theory is just a theory.

But I'm speaking of society today. Sure the foundation is the same. But now mass-media has taken the role of the church in most places. The new religion is called liberalism.

It's it that's spreading its lies about Tibet:

Funny thing Nepal and similar countries aren't condemned by the west. Nepal was a royal dictatorship just until very recently. The king seized power and abolished "democracy". Tens of thousands dead. No word about it in the press. No weeks of press coverage.

In the same way the Lamas ruled Tibet for centuries. Before China liberated Tibet it was a feodal theocratic regime. The tibetian exile "government" is no unpartisan source. They have less information about the situation than the police that's there, yet the claim things and western media sees their words as facts.

However, Dalai Lama is an outspoken marxist, but many capitalists are as well. That doesn't make them socialists.

[Sennacherib 0]

always your same blablabla. please go in china or russia and let us poor stupid and manipulated occidentals.

Quote[/b] ]Before China liberated Tibet

sorry to write that. but you are just an asshole. if you like this kind of government north-korea is waiting for you.