Helicopter CONTROL? please help

[RN Malboeuf 12]

I also noticed that RotorDive do not work in arma for human controled heli's. You can only tilt the whole machine not rotors ( But i only have keyboard. I wonder if it's diferent with joy ?

[Sosna 0]

No they haven't all done it wrong, well not completely, and you are getting actual pilot consultation right now. As far as basic cyclic movements to roll into and out of a turn in ArmA and X-plane, they are the same, I just tried it. When I roll into a bank and then relieve cyclic pressure from the bank, it just rolls more and more into the bank. And then I tried it in the airplane, yoke into the bank, relieve pressure, it just stays in the bank until I input opposite aileron. Maybe you did something to F up your controls.

What I don't understand is that you seem to you think the helicopter would level out from a bank without opposite input, why would that happen?

I criticize your diagnosis because it isn't correct, and I don't want to see the Devs make a change based off incorrect information.

Missing the point again

In X-Plane, releasing the stick makes the helicopter resume a default "attitude".

In Arma, releasing the stick does absolutely nothing.

This has nothing to do with flight dynamics, but how Arma treats control input. I apologize for any confusion - before I was describing symptoms, now I have realized the cause.

If you visualize 2 joysticks: The real one in your hand, and Arma's virtual joystick. Arma's joystick does not center when released, while the real one does. This causes the situation where the pilot must move his real joystick in order to center Arma's virtual joystick.

To simplify: the input is relative rather than absolute. It's most definitely an error on the developers part.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

If I release the stick in X-plane in say a 10 degree bank, it will stay in at least a 10 degree bank if not increase the bank angle.

If I release the stick in arma from a 10 degree bank, it will maintain the same angle of bank. So essentially arma does the same thing as x plane, which is correct. If I want to roll to level attitude from that bank, I have to move the stick past "center" and into a right pressure. Thats how it works with my setup, and thats how it should be.

I'm thinking that your theory is that if your joystick returned to the center, then the helicopter should return to a level attitude, if so thats not how it works.

If something else is happening for you then you have something screwed up somewhere.

[Sosna 0]

Ah, I've figured it out.

The problem is that Arma uses the same input method for the mouse and the joystick.

As we all know, a mouse does not center as a joystick does. A non centering input makes sense in this case. The virtual joystick stays aligned with mouse movements. If the virtual joystick did center, mouse flying would be complicated.

Unfortunately, when using a real joystick, the virtual joystick does not center itself. So the two joysticks are misaligned, causing the symptoms I have described.

The devs may have done this to prevent input conflicts. For example: if a joystick was detected, but untouched, it would be constantly sending center input while the pilot tries to fly with the mouse.

BI simply needs to keep the virtual joystick and the real one aligned. I'm not sure what that would entail technically, but it would make joystick helicopter flight handle like any other sim (flight model aside).

[max power 21]

Ah, I've figured it out.

The problem is that Arma uses the same input method for the mouse and the joystick.

As we all know, a mouse does not center as a joystick does. A non centering input makes sense in this case. The virtual joystick stays aligned with mouse movements. If the virtual joystick did center, mouse flying would be complicated.

Unfortunately, when using a real joystick, the virtual joystick does not center itself. So the two joysticks are misaligned, causing the symptoms I have described.

The devs may have done this to prevent input conflicts. For example: if a joystick was detected, but untouched, it would be constantly sending center input while the pilot tries to fly with the mouse.

BI simply needs to keep the virtual joystick and the real one aligned. I'm not sure what that would entail technically, but it would make joystick helicopter flight handle like any other sim (flight model aside).

I'm now confused as to whether you're using the keyboard and mouse or a joystick.

ArmA behaves as it should when using a joystick. How it should behave with a keyboard and mouse is open to debate.

[Sosna 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm now confused as to whether you're using the keyboard and mouse or a joystick.

I typically use a joystick

Quote[/b] ]ArmA behaves as it should when using a joystick.

No... Currently, joystick movement in Arma is wrong. It behaves as if by tilting the joystick, you move the mouse cursor, and the cursor is left wherever you placed it once you center the stick.

It is relative, when it should be absolute. Centering the joystick should behave as center input, but it behaves as no input.

If it were absolute, centering the joystick would put the cursor in the center of the screen, holding the joystick tilted left would place the cursor left, and centering again would return the cursor to the center.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer than that, it's not an easy thing to explain...

Quote[/b] ]

How it should behave with a keyboard and mouse is open to debate.

With the mouse it's currently as good as it will get (relative input = relative movement). The other option is self-centering, similar to Arma's current driving input (Which most seem to find frustrating)

Keyboard, however has options: Either it could be absolute, i.e. pressing no cyclic key assumes center input, and each cyclic key assumes input in that direction. (Typical in flight sims)

Or, relative: where no key pressed assumes no input. It's Basically identical to moving the cursor around with the keys.

Hope this helps.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

Quote[/b] ]It is relative, when it should be absolute. Centering the joystick should behave as center input, but it behaves as no input.

Centering the joystick centers the cyclic in Arma for me, I don't know what to say anymore. You have an isolated problem or something. For me, the way ArmA handles the inputs works the same way it does in x-plane, fsx, and real helicopters.

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]I'm now confused as to whether you're using the keyboard and mouse or a joystick.

I typically use a joystick

Quote[/b] ]ArmA behaves as it should when using a joystick.

No... Currently, joystick movement in Arma is wrong. It behaves as if by tilting the joystick, you move the mouse cursor, and the cursor is left wherever you placed it once you center the stick.

It is relative, when it should be absolute. Centering the joystick should behave as center input, but it behaves as no input.

If it were absolute, centering the joystick would put the cursor in the center of the screen, holding the joystick tilted left would place the cursor left, and centering again would return the cursor to the center.

I don't know if I can make it any clearer than that, it's not an easy thing to explain...

So deflect the joystick to the left, the helicopter begins to bank to the left. You centre the joystick, the helicopter ceases to increase the angle of its bank and maintains the banking angle that you left it at. In order to level the helicopter again, you must deflect the joystick in the opposite direction until it is level, and then cease deflecting the joystick. This is how ArmA behaves for me and this is close to how helicopters truly behave, as far as I understand it. It is certainly how fixed wing aircraft behave, even highwing ones with dihedral. You do not have to maintain stick deflection in order to maintain bank angle. If this is not how your ArmA, then something is wrong.

[Yoshama 0]

they built the game so you can use the keyboard too. it would be anoying to keep pressing a key over and over to keep the same pitch. its not real but it works. with the joysticks its not perfict but it is also not fsx.

its easyer they way they have it.

[wamingo 1]

As we all know, a mouse does not center as a joystick does. A non centering input makes sense in this case. The virtual joystick stays aligned with mouse movements. If the virtual joystick did center, mouse flying would be complicated.

Actually...

Go try the flying mode in Google Earth (no bull). The setup and such is bad, and it takes some practice, but this is basicly the way I want flying to be with in arma with mouse/kb.

Ctrl+Alt+A in Google Earth (I think), else google it

The benefit of this is that you have much greater precision with controls - Whether it'll be easier to hit a target is debatable though

Where realism is concerned I think it's a better system.

[Sosna 0]

As we all know, a mouse does not center as a joystick does. A non centering input makes sense in this case. The virtual joystick stays aligned with mouse movements. If the virtual joystick did center, mouse flying would be complicated.

Actually...

Go try the flying mode in Google Earth (no bull). The setup and such is bad, and it takes some practice, but this is basicly the way I want flying to be with in arma with mouse/kb.

Ctrl+Alt+A in Google Earth (I think), else google it

The benefit of this is that you have much greater precision with controls - Whether it'll be easier to hit a target is debatable though

Where realism is concerned I think it's a better system.

Google Earth does it nicely. Relative control for the mouse, (Cursor does not snap to the center like, for example, when driving in Arma) and absolute control for the joystick. "Cursor" is centered when joystick is.

For another example, check out FlightGear It's free and open source. They also managed to have simultaneous relative input for the mouse, and absolute input for the joystick. It has a helicopter flight model quite similar to X-Plane's.

[dwringer 45]

hooold on just a second here; when using the mouse to steer or fly vehicles on Arma, when you stop moving the mouse, the control in-game WILL center itself. Hasn't anyone ever driven a hum-v and steered with the mouse? When you leave the mouse alone, the steering wheel snaps to the center. That's just like on a joystick. When you center the joystick, the in-game control snaps back to the center because it's not receiving any input signal (just like when you stop moving your mouse.)

So the entire debate on the previous page is bunk, more or less

(no offense to anyone's experiences who may actually have a problem with the way their controls are set up, which is what it seems to me :-\

[ryankaplan 1]

i couldnt quite decide whether to start a new thread called 'flight dynamics as of 1.11 beta' so i thought i'd post this here. this is a copy from the 1.11 thread, becuase nobody seemed to confirm or notice or care.

Quote[/b] ]

However i have a problem with the new flight model. I use the keyboard and mouse, and i noticed it when i realised it was a hell of alot harder in 1.11 to accurately engage singluar targets like tanks with the A10's cannon.

It appears to me that in 1.11, the mouse control (Turn left and Turn right) not only banks the plane using the airelons (the flaps on the wings) but also utilises the rudder(the flaps at the back)? While i was able to engage targets accurately out to more than a kilometer in 1.09, i cannot in 1.11 due to erratic mouse movement.

I am not a pilot and have no clue how planes handle in real life, but as far as i understand the controls for each should be seperate since they basicly do different jobs. I checked my controls and they were unchanged from 1.09.

Anyone who used fixed wing aircraft to strafe tanks and so on will notice the difference immediately, and i would appreciate if more people commented on the subject.

To reproduce:

-try to fly an a10 and kill some stationary tanks with the cannon in 1.09 from longe ranges (1km ish)

-And then try the same in 1.11.

-the result should be that it will be alot harder to aim in 1.11.

[Sosna 0]

hooold on just a second here; when using the mouse to steer or fly vehicles on Arma, when you stop moving the mouse, the control in-game WILL center itself.  Hasn't anyone ever driven a hum-v and steered with the mouse? When you leave the mouse alone, the steering wheel snaps to the center.  That's just like on a joystick.  When you center the joystick, the in-game control snaps back to the center because it's not receiving any input signal (just like when you stop moving your mouse.)

So the entire debate on the previous page is bunk, more or less

(no offense to anyone's experiences who may actually have a problem with the way their controls are set up, which is what it seems to me :-\

I'm aware that the mouse centers when driving cars/tanks. However, it does not center when flying. That's fine for mouse control, but it also doesn't center for the joystick, when it should - That's the problem.

[max power 21]

hooold on just a second here; when using the mouse to steer or fly vehicles on Arma, when you stop moving the mouse, the control in-game WILL center itself. Hasn't anyone ever driven a hum-v and steered with the mouse? When you leave the mouse alone, the steering wheel snaps to the center. That's just like on a joystick. When you center the joystick, the in-game control snaps back to the center because it's not receiving any input signal (just like when you stop moving your mouse.)

So the entire debate on the previous page is bunk, more or less

(no offense to anyone's experiences who may actually have a problem with the way their controls are set up, which is what it seems to me :-\

I'm aware that the mouse centers when driving cars/tanks. However, it does not center when flying. That's fine for mouse control, but it also doesn't center for the joystick, when it should - That's the problem.

I don't see how you can use flight simulator experience argue against an actual helicopter pilot... but what do I know.

[DumaUK 0]

An interesting (perhaps) note: When the original OFP demo came out some clever chaps worked out how to unlock the Blackhawk for player control. The flight model for that aircraft was far closer (in fact, uncannily similar) to ArmA's flight model than the simplified FM of the release version of OFP.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]That's fine for mouse control

Actually not. It´s the biggest nonsense they have served us.

Go play the Delivery boy mission with mouse and keyboard and you´ll understand. It´s simply stupid and what I like most is that BIS does absolutely nothing against it while it´s one of the most wanted fixes since Arma has been released.

I don´t take washy excuses anymore as they seem to have all the time in the world to embedd new features like VON as it will certainly be a new part of Arma 2 while we still have to wait for bugfixes that are so old that they are falling over their own beard.

If this "control" system isn´t extended or fixed for Arma 2 I certainly won´t buy it. I have no interest in unguidable vehicles anymore. I simply have enough of it.

[Sosna 0]

Quote[/b] ]That's fine for mouse control

Actually not. It´s the biggest nonsense they have served us.

Go play the Delivery boy mission with mouse and keyboard and you´ll understand. It´s simply stupid and what I like most is that BIS does absolutely nothing against it while it´s one of the most wanted fixes since Arma has been released.

I don´t take washy excuses anymore as they seem to have all the time in the world to embedd new features like VON as it will certainly be a new part of Arma 2 while we still have to wait for bugfixes that are so old that they are falling over their own beard.

If this "control" system isn´t extended or fixed for Arma 2 I certainly won´t buy it. I have no interest in unguidable vehicles anymore. I simply have enough of it.

I meant that when flying the mouse does not center. I agree though that mouse centering while driving is irritating. (Since it does center though, joystick driving does feel correct)

It seems that right now we can have either:

-The mouse behaves as a mouse, and joystick behaves as a mouse. (current flying in Arma)

or,

-The mouse behaves as a joystick, and joystick behaves as a joystick. (current driving in Arma)

Obviously, we want the mouse to behave as a mouse, and the joystick as a joystick. I think the solution would lie in giving different devices their own input characteristics, rather than sharing input between devices, as I guess it is now.

[wamingo 1]

maybe I shouldn't beat an old horse here but...

Sosna, are you saying, when flying with mouse, say you move it left, your plane keeps rolling without moving the mouse further?

If not, surely the virtual stick does center?

[Frank-O 0]

I'm sorry Megahunt. You're a licensed fixed wing pilot. What you're complaining about was OFP's ability to yaw the nose so you're facing say, 1:30 when flying into the 12 oclock direction. In ArmA, it is reduced, but still there.

Rotary is a different animal. BIS decided to reduce the ability of a rotary wing veh to rudder yaw left and right when at speed without sliping. This is correct. The level of reduction may still be debated, but the reduction of the ability to yaw to 1:30 when flying into the 12 oclock direction when AT SPEED is correct.

Totally unrealistic was the ability of a rotary wing veh to rudder yaw skidding 180 degrees, collective increase, and slow to a complete stop without raising your altitude. I know. I've done it on numerous occasions in OFP.

I congratulate BIS for removing this ability in ArmA. Of course, you can still do this at hover speeds. (about 30-40kph in most rotary wing veh in ArmA)

[Sosna 0]

maybe I shouldn't beat an old horse here but...

Sosna, are you saying, when flying with mouse, say you move it left, your plane keeps rolling without moving the mouse further?

If not, surely the virtual stick does center?

When I say flying in the context of this thread, I mean with helicopters.

When flying planes input is centered with the mouse, and with joystick. Similar to driving. It should not be centering with the mouse, since long turns require excessive mouse movement - just like with driving.

With helicopters both are non-centering. Ideal for mouse, terrible for joysticks.

[twisted 128]

I congratulate BIS for removing this ability in ArmA.  Of course, you can still do this at hover speeds. (about 30-40kph in most rotary wing veh in ArmA)

+1

[frederf 0]

It gets me every time someone asks for better flight controls and then it turns out they want to fly with keyboard and mouse If you are talking about how the controls respond to keyboard and mouse input in the same paragraph as you are talking about realism and ability, you fail.

The weathervane torque that restores the airframe to face the direction of incoming air is of course a sound physical concept. The tail rotor torque is limited and thus at higher and higher speeds yaw authority does go down. Anyone disagreeing with this fact has already removed themselves from discussion and their words need not be considered any further.

However, I protest the smoothness of the decrease in yaw authority as it relates to relative wind. In ArmA at 40kmph you can spin like a top but at 60 kmph you have maybe 2-3 degrees left/right yaw authority. It's very on-off.

Of course there is the notion that you cannot assume that relative wind speed is the same as indicated airspeed (which gives just the forward component of relative). Also one must remember that the raw torque provided by the tail rotor also decreases as the wind blows across its disk.

It should be a simple matter of integrating the cross sectional area of the helicopter body rear of the main rotor times the distance from the rotor, subtract the area forward of the rotor times its distance (since that wants to anti-weathervane).

Multiply that lever arm moment times the sine of the slip angle and then times the wind pressure at a certain speed. Find all resulting torques that equal the max counter-torque provided by the tail rotor and you have a nifty graph that displays what slip angle you should be able to hold at every speed.

I have a feeling that such a graph would be a lot more smooth than the behavior in ArmA.

[max power 21]

I think the aerodynamic pressures should increase in a relationship as a square of the airspeed or something. A book I'm reading says that the required tail rotor torque decreases in forward flight to a point and then increases again, they don't say why tho.

[Frank-O 0]

@Plaintiff

Yeah. It's proportional to aerodynamic stability in the air current envelope, forward momentum, and gyroscopic inertia. OK, I'm BS'ing. but I bet some of you said...yeah...that makes sense...

@Frederf

2 sides. You're right, but now BIS has to act like Corben Dallas in the "Fifth Element" and do the "Lelu" extraction...shorter....shorter? faster coding? no half page equations to calculate rate of yaw and limit of yaw at speed? Approximate? Worked for Cleanrock and his ai code... Compromise and approximate? Simplify and yet achieve simulated feel?