Arma and VBS2

[USSRsniper 0]

Quote[/b] ] VBS2 is not simulator, real simulatos that military uses soldiers axctually hold weapons not keyboard and mouse....

The first military customer for VBS1 was the United States Marine Corps (USMC), who were provided VBS1, a USMC addon pack and MOUT training facilities modelled to a high level of detail in late 2001. The majority of development work was carried out by BIA, with distribution and limited development conducted by Coalescent Technologies.

So I guess the usmc isn't a Real military force? I guess my friend who is in the usmc special forces, and almost lost his leg when his humvee ran over an IED in iraq was just a funny gag?

I'm gonna reach here and assume that you have purchased  VBS2 for $1500.00usd and even some of the addon disc's for 300.00ea. Because it certinally sounds as if your making an intelligent post based on personal expierience.

So if USMC buys it, then it means its "simulator"? It's realistic as ArmA. Its just a game to train tactics, etc. Same thing is possible in ArmA, ever played coop with realistic chain of command? this is what they do every day when they play VBS2. Why i said its not "simulator", because after palying it you dont become "good soldier". But with other simulators as Air Force uses for airplane training, you can apply everything into real world, except the G forces.

About VBS2 having boring features, there are alot of people who would love those features in ArmA.

[Sevan 0]

VBS and ArmA are as much "simulators" as Air simulators. VBS although is specifically designed for training purposes and not entertainment. I don't understand this continued discussion over the difinition of simulator.

[USSRsniper 0]

VBS and ArmA are as much "simulators" as Air simulators. VBS although is specifically designed for training purposes and not entertainment. I don't understand this continued discussion over the difinition of simulator.

If you land in military air simulator you will land the airplane in real world... Military simulator is jsut as playing Falcon 4 but with real cockpit    But with VBS2 what you get nothing then just to trrain situations that can happen, so when in real lfie IED explodes and soldiers run around without knowing what to do but what VBS does, it makes sure soldiers know what to do. Because setting up those sittuations for life training is very, very expensive.  VBS2 is used by military not to help soldiers, but to save money on training.... or they wouldn't be calling it "cheap training software for military"

I dont get why not make simulator for price of regular game for people?

There are simulators as Falcon 4, Lock On, IL-2, why not make battlefield simulator? Even with simulators you can get entertaiment. And there is not alot of entertaiment in ArmA, if you want entertaiment you play Doom3, HL2, CSS, Crysis, etc. this is where its real "entertaiment".

[r2101 0]

interesting views into the making of vbs2... especially enjoyed the part about new ways of learning...

i guess that is the exciting aspect about stuff like vbs/opf etc... it can be used as a tool to evaluate and monitor group dynamics ... communication processes...

besides i could imagine that it makes a very nice interactive replacement for overhead projectors or the use of board and chalk *lol*...

instead of just drawing a scene and discuss it you could set up an interactive movie depicting the same scene, watch from different angles...easily change parameters, try out different approaches etc... (the realtime editor has to be brilliant for that kind of stuff)

the perfect visualization tool imho...

and it is probably more "fun" than to just watch some dry diagrams/maps...and "fun" is important ...even in "serious" stuff... in terms of motivation and actually positively connecting with the subject...

but in the end...i think the use of "pros" to teach other "pros" is what makes it serious or realistic...

[ShrubMiK 0]

Oh yawwwwwn...yet more semantic meta-argument about exactly what the word "simulator" means. Let's not go too far down that route, please...it means different things to different people in different circumstances, depending on exactly what it is they are trying to achieve at that time.

>I dont get why not make simulator for price of regular game for people?

I'm making assumptions here, it is true, but anyway...

1. Because they think it won't sell well enough to recoup the development cost.

2. Because they think there is a smaller potential customer base that will pay a enough extra for something targeted more at the "simulation" domain and less at the "entertainment" domain to recoup the development cost.

Do try to remember that they are a business, not a charity existing for the sole purpose of giving you exactly what you want for exactly the price you want!

[USSRsniper 0]

interesting views into the making of vbs2... especially enjoyed the part about new ways of learning...

i guess that is the exciting aspect about stuff like vbs/opf etc... it can be used as a tool to evaluate and monitor group dynamics ... communication processes...

besides i could imagine that it makes a very nice interactive replacement for overhead projectors or the use of board and chalk *lol*...

instead of just drawing a scene and discuss it you could set up an interactive movie depicting the same scene, watch from different angles...easily change parameters, try out different approaches etc... (the realtime editor has to be brilliant for that kind of stuff)

the perfect visualization tool imho...

and it is probably more "fun" than to just watch some dry diagrams/maps...and "fun" is important ...even in "serious" stuff... in terms of motivation and actually positively connecting with the subject...

but in the end...i think the use of "pros" to teach other "pros" is what makes it serious or realistic...

VBS2 I think is mainly to track every units with ease, unlike in real training, its almost impossible to see what every soldiers on battlefield did. And to change the setting of real battlefield training you have to spend hours by moving vehicles, targets, etc. With VBS2 you can do this in minutes.

About "fun" part, but military is not about "fun"..... This is problem with US military right now, you might seen youtube video where some Marines  find the war "fun"... Or because of having "fun" breaking vehicles. Saw this video where soldier broke HUMVEE becaue they had "fun".

ShrubMiK

People who made Falcon 4, IL-2, and Lock On is buisness too, and they make money.

[r2101 0]

hiho...

i think you misunderstood my idea of "the fun part"...

i wasn´t trying to say that it is all fun, or war is fun (well it is as a game *g*)...

instead i was refering to motivations and learning... and i think you will be able to integrate something better into your "memory" if you actually expirience it as interesting (which i refer to as fun)... and i think an interactive system is more "fun" / interesting as a normal diagram in a educational setting...

might sound strange ... english isn´t my first language

[USSRsniper 0]

it should be hard in training, but easy on battlefield, not the way hiho...

i think you misunderstood my idea of "the fun part"...

i wasn´t trying to say that it is all fun, or war is fun (well it is as a game *g*)...

instead i was refering to motivations and learning... and i think you will be able to integrate something better into your "memory" if you actually expirience it as interesting (which i refer to as fun)... and i think an interactive system is more "fun" / interesting as a normal diagram in a educational setting...

might sound strange ... english isn´t my first language

I agree that is good to have some "fun" during training, but sometimes it can get too far which is bad.  Hmm , does anybody know what happens when you die in VBS2 when you serve in USMC? Do they scream at you? saying that in real lfie you would be dead, etc?  

[Sevan 0]

I dont get why not make simulator for price of regular game for people?

There are simulators as Falcon 4, Lock On, IL-2, why not make battlefield simulator? Even with simulators you can get entertaiment.

Here is where I agree with you.

[-RE-Monk 0]

I own both Armed Assault and VBS2,ever since first firing up VBS2 and giving it a quick run through,ArmA was removed completly from my machine,this training tool just blew me inside out,Yes its a very steep price tag for those outside the "intended" use for VBS2 which has been mentioned,its for the Armed Forces,hence the hefty price tag,

As for those asking about why stuff from VBS2 was not included in ArmA,first of all for those that dont quite grasp the fact that we are talking about 2 completly different companys,aswell as there were some seriously major tweaks made to the ArmA engine from the VBS2 developers so addon makers/scripters etc will certaintly struggle as they will not be able to "tweak" the game engine in this manner,

Lastly for all this "bashing" of VBS2,im affraid you cannot really comment on that matter as you dont have the "hard facts" sitting on your machine because i could assure you,if you had so,ArmA wouldnt even be on your PC either.

@USSRSniper,

 You obviously have NO clue what so ever to the capabilitys of the VBS2 training program.

Basically it falls down to jelousy,plain and simple.

[Pom 0]

I own both Armed Assault and VBS2,ever since first firing up VBS2 and giving it a quick run through,ArmA was removed completly from my machine,this training tool just blew me inside out,Yes its a very steep price tag for those outside the "intended" use for VBS2 which has been mentioned,its for the Armed Forces,hence the hefty price tag,

As for those asking about why stuff from VBS2 was not included in ArmA,first of all for those that dont quite grasp the fact that we are talking about 2 completly different companys,aswell as there were some seriously major tweaks made to the ArmA engine from the VBS2 developers so addon makers/scripters etc will certaintly struggle as they will not be able to "tweak" the game engine in this manner,

Lastly for all this "bashing" of VBS2,im affraid you cannot really comment on that matter as you dont have the "hard facts" sitting on your machine because i could assure you,if you had so,ArmA wouldnt even be on your PC either.

@USSRSniper,

You obviously have NO clue what so ever to the capabilitys of the VBS2 training program.

Basically it falls down to jelousy,plain and simple.

I agree with Monk.

Its a training programe designed for training proffesional soldiers not to entertain a bunch of Civis that wont to feel like there in a real Combat situation.

At the end of the day you wont realisum you join the mob and serve your country maybe then you will understand why VBS2 is such a good traning aid.

Core i hate being Disslexic

[ShrubMiK 0]

>People who made Falcon 4, IL-2, and Lock On is buisness too, and they make money.

Maybe because flight sims is a different market segment?

There's also MS Train Simulator you could point to, if you want further "proof" of your point of view.

It's also worth noting that the heydey of combat flight sims seems to have passed, IMO. I went through numerous titles in the late 80's/90's. F19 Stealth Fighter. F117 Stealth Fighter. TFX. EF2000.

Then Micrprose went bust and DiD moved away from pure hard-core flight sims...Total Air War was ...different...Eurofighter Typhoon was disappointingly arcady and unsatisfying. And then DiD disappeared from the companies landscape as well.

Falcon 4.0 : AF I do have and am trying to find time to get into right now...it does look good.

But isn't it yet another example of commercial problems with combat flight sims?...originally a Microprose title, later picked up and resurrected by "the community" and given a new lease of life through large amounts of volunteer (i.e. cheap) effort.

[Fudge 0]

Again, I agree with Monk. USSRSniper, you seem to have little or no experience with the military; it isn't all about firing a gun, as combat isn't exactly like a foxhunt in a forest somewhere in Wiltshire. Soldiering is about tactics and fieldcraft. Fieldcraft is difficult to train with a simulator, yes, but navigation, and more importantly, infantry tactics can be taught and trained effectively. VBS2 isn't a substitute to conventional, practical training, but rather a supplement. It's engine is tweaked to allow observation and recording, and has been tailored for military use.

Fire and movement, contact drills and other tactics can be practiced in a safe, cheap environment allowing the recruits to concentrate on the elements themselves, and can train more dynamically without having to mobilise a regiment for training.

Young soldiers may only have X weeks of basic training and infantry training before they go to Iraq or Afghanistan. VBS2 can make them more confident in their abilities, and can also start adapting them to the environments they will be working in, since maps are realistic recreations of various areas of operations.

And finally, VBS1 and 2 are not games. They're training-tools developed for the armed forces, not for the consumer. Bohemia Interactive Australia have chosen to make them available to the public, but they're clear about what their products are; simulators.

[Second 0]

Well that is quite like USSRsniper said about VBSs afterall

[USSRsniper 0]

|RE|Monk

But with VBS2, you will not find alot of players playing it online so good luck with that..... Or AI in VBS2 is much better then in ArmA to paly in single player?

Fudge

ummm... isn't this what i said too that is good for observation and etc...? its still far from being simulator, its more a training tool to get even better training and save money, then a simulator.. because what it simulates other than overall battlefield and chain of command? What I call real simulator is Steel Beasts 2 Pro PE, or military version of steel beasts 2 which is not even made public.

Also whats the point of people saying if you want realism join the real army. What if i want realism but not joining the military?  Or is there something wrong about wanting this?

[-RE-Monk 0]

|RE|Monk

But with VBS2, you will not find alot of players playing it online so good luck with that..... Or AI in VBS2 is much better then in ArmA to paly in single player?

Your very correct mate but i have over a dozen team mates with VBS2 so that helps a great deal,not including all the other VBS2 owners,id say around 20-30 of them so we can join forces to run the very big missions made,and its great fun at that

[USSRsniper 0]

|RE|Monk

But with VBS2, you will not find alot of players playing it online so good luck with that..... Or AI in VBS2 is much better then in ArmA to paly in single player?

Your very correct mate but i have over a dozen team mates with VBS2 so that helps a great deal,not including all the other VBS2 owners,id say around  20-30 of them so we can join forces to run the very big missions made,and its great fun at that    

So same thing can be done in ArmA even did few missions... but i wish that players of ArmA played more big scale battles...

[ShrubMiK 0]

a certain amount of self-contradiction there USSRSniper

>its still far from being simulator

>...it simulates...overall battlefield and chain of command

So there we have it, it IS a simulator, just not a simulator of the exact things you want it to simulate in detail.

[Swamp Donkey 0]

I used VBS to train in Nam. The only thing the simulation had a hard time simulating was the sucky sucky long time.

[dslyecxi 23]

Quote[/b] ]I own both Armed Assault and VBS2,ever since first firing up VBS2 and giving it a quick run through,ArmA was removed completly from my machine,this training tool just blew me inside out,Yes its a very steep price tag for those outside the "intended" use for VBS2 which has been mentioned,its for the Armed Forces,hence the hefty price tag,

I own ArmA and have unlimited access to VBS2. I have never once, not even for a moment, considered ditching ArmA to play exclusively with VBS2. Not once, ever. VBS2 has all sorts of great things for military training purposes, and I have a blast designing scenarios and such for it for my job, but there is nothing in it that would make me give up the fantastic community that my group has developed these past years in OFP and ArmA. We can get 60-70 people in an ArmA session on a regular basis, and out of the entire group, noone - repeat - noone has vbs2 aside from me, and I only have it because it is my job. There is nothing in VBS2 for us that would be compelling enough to get even a tiny fraction of us to spend our money on it and attempt to switch over to it for MP.

Anyhow, that's my $0.02. As someone who has seen the good and bad sides of both games in great depth, I will always regard ArmA as far, far superior for civilian gaming purposes.

edit: Oh hey, I missed this gem from your post, Monk.

Quote[/b] ]Lastly for all this "bashing" of VBS2,im affraid you cannot really comment on that matter as you dont have the "hard facts" sitting on your machine because i could assure you,if you had so,ArmA wouldnt even be on your PC either.

Funny how ArmA's still on my PC, eh?

[USSRsniper 0]

a certain amount of self-contradiction there USSRSniper

>its still far from being simulator

>...it simulates...overall battlefield and chain of command

So there we have it, it IS a simulator, just not a simulator of the exact things you want it to simulate in detail.

Then why not call ArmA simulator? Played mission with simulated close to real life battlefields, and chain of command...      So ArmA is simulator too! Or because it doesn't cost $1000 its not a simulator?

[STRYKER555 0]

Bah about VBS2 vs Arma. I just want BiS (not an addon maker) to put in some working mortars in the game... 60mm for US forces and larger caliber Russian built one for SLA troops.

[bravo 6 0]

Quote[/b] ]I own both Armed Assault and VBS2,ever since first firing up VBS2 and giving it a quick run through,ArmA was removed completly from my machine,this training tool just blew me inside out,Yes its a very steep price tag for those outside the "intended" use for VBS2 which has been mentioned,its for the Armed Forces,hence the hefty price tag,

I own ArmA and have unlimited access to VBS2. I have never once, not even for a moment, considered ditching ArmA to play exclusively with VBS2. Not once, ever. VBS2 has all sorts of great things for military training purposes, and I have a blast designing scenarios and such for it for my job, but there is nothing in it that would make me give up the fantastic community that my group has developed these past years in OFP and ArmA. We can get 60-70 people in an ArmA session on a regular basis, and out of the entire group, noone - repeat - noone has vbs2 aside from me, and I only have it because it is my job. There is nothing in VBS2 for us that would be compelling enough to get even a tiny fraction of us to spend our money on it and attempt to switch over to it for MP.

Anyhow, that's my $0.02. As someone who has seen the good and bad sides of both games in great depth, I will always regard ArmA as far, far superior for civilian gaming purposes.

edit: Oh hey, I missed this gem from your post, Monk.

Quote[/b] ]Lastly for all this "bashing" of VBS2,im affraid you cannot really comment on that matter as you dont have the "hard facts" sitting on your machine because i could assure you,if you had so,ArmA wouldnt even be on your PC either.

Funny how ArmA's still on my PC, eh?

reading this statment i think the thread was answered.

ArmA all the way.. It will last long years for sure.

[mr reality 0]

aswell as there were some seriously major tweaks made to the ArmA engine from the VBS2 developers

This is what i dont understand. If BIA can make major tweaks to the ArmA engine, how come BIS cant do the same. It's there engine.

Now if the answer is, BIS can do it, but wont, then you have to ask yourself is ArmA the ultimate simulation. Are we just getting a pale imitation of a simulation with ArmA and has BIS taken this as far as it can go without breaking into VBS territory.

There are some glaring omissions in ArmA with regards to engine improvements, that were added to VBS2. Now if this is the ongoing trend, we'll have the same problem with Game2 with VBS3 taking the best features....

[dslyecxi 23]

aswell as there were some seriously major tweaks made to the ArmA engine from the VBS2 developers

This is what i dont understand. If BIA can make major tweaks to the ArmA engine, how come BIS cant do the same. It's there engine.

Now if the answer is, BIS can do it, but wont, then you have to ask yourself is ArmA the ultimate simulation. Are we just getting a pale imitation of a simulation with ArmA and has BIS taken this as far as it can go without breaking into VBS territory.

There are some glaring omissions in ArmA with regards to engine improvements, that were added to VBS2. Now if this is the ongoing trend, we'll have the same problem with Game2 with VBS3 taking the best features....

You are grossly over exaggerating things.