Aircraft Rudders

[hailstorm 4]

Small arguments aside, i believe this ISN'T a 'Small Matter'.

i'm not asking for total realisic flight operations, nor 'difficulty of gameplay' adjustments, i'm asking for A CRITICAL COMPONENT OF FLIGHT DYNAMICS.

i'm sure those bitching that ArmA 'is an infantry simulator' would be absolutely pissed if they could do everything they currently can with their rifles, except use the iron sights. and likewise, i'd like to see tank drivers fight without the ability to turn their turrets. cause Pilots are having an 'interesting' time flying without a control THEY KNOW EXISTS. just because someone out there thinks they can fly without it, just because others don't use aircraft, dosen't mean something isn't wrong.

yeah, it can be done, sure i can line-up my attack run from five kilometres away, but if my aim is slightly off (or maybe i'm aiming at a moving target), i'd like to be able to use my rudders and correct my flightpath, like i should be able to. likewise, if i'm sideways and need altitude NOW, i wanna point my nose at the sky and actually go up, or at least stop my descent.

i'm not a helo pilot, so i ain't gonna comment too much on sideways flight. This Video (Westland Lynx Flight Envelope) gives some food for thought, though. (yes, i am aware that this heli has one of the best perfomance envelopes so far)

last note: sure, different aircraft have different roles, but all can use their rudders to turn, just to different extents. i never expect an AV-8B to have the same rate of rudder turn as say an A-10, cause the roles are different. BUT, ArmA's jets can't even turn. that's the point i'm trying to raise here.

[max power 21]

I don't really see anything in that video that you can't do in Armed Assault... Except maybe make sustained turns at 140 kts.

[Hunin 0]

In capitals this time ( forgive me mods):

THE FCS DOES NOT AUTOMATE RUDDER INPUT: IT AUTOMATICALY REACTS TO CHANGES MADE TO THE OTHER INPUT DEVICES.

Another example to show you what I am talking about, just answer the question:

Can the F-16 make a barrel role? Yes/No?

Of course it can and yes the rudder can be used but as I stated its rarely used. Including dogfights you will see why when you check the above link. I agree with the idea of having separate FMs for each aircraft but the rudder depends on the aircraft type and how its used IRL.

I seem to lack the brainpower to explain to you why your statement is wrong.

Rudder was used in BFM from the Fokker E.III to the F/A-22 and it will be used until FBL systems can automaticaly manouvre into lead positions.

At that time there won't be a pilot in the cockpit anyway.

Nevermind mate...gone off topic for to long...

[max power 21]

The fact that the Falcon's rudder isn't an all-flying surface (I don't think) would allude to the fact that it isn't really designed to be used at transonic speeds and above, though, wouldn't it?

[Beagle 684]

IF ARMA HAD A PERFECT HELICOPTER SIMULATION:

1. Player climbs into Kiowa.

2. Player clicks on the battery and fuel. Hits the starter.

3. Engine explodes.

4. Player gets out and climbs into next Kiowa on the flight line.

5. Repeat steps 2-4 until player figures out he's doing something wrong.

6. Player reads flight manual.

7. Not understanding what the words "hot start" mean, player attempts to start engine again.

8. Engine whirrs a little, then explodes.

9. Feeling discouraged, player hops into a nearby trabant to grab some fast food.

10. Player finds out he has destroyed $20mil in turbine engines, is unable to afford cheeseburger and fries, opts for two salt packets and a bullion cube.

I guess the moral of the story is: be careful what you wish for. Helicopters are VERY complex machines. Trying to figure one out is not "video-game fun". If BIS put in a complete aircraft simulation, people would be complaining it's too hard.

Even the newest flight simulator from Microsoft simplifies a helicopters startup...and this sim has a lot of buttons to press.

The only near real startup of a jet is in Falcon 4.0 AF... a procedure the takes at least 5 minutes to roll on if done to all air traffic rules.

[snakefang 0]

IF ARMA HAD A PERFECT HELICOPTER SIMULATION:

1. Player climbs into Kiowa.

2. Player clicks on the battery and fuel. Hits the starter.

3. Engine explodes.

4. Player gets out and climbs into next Kiowa on the flight line.

5. Repeat steps 2-4 until player figures out he's doing something wrong.

6. Player reads flight manual.

7. Not understanding what the words "hot start" mean, player attempts to start engine again.

8. Engine whirrs a little, then explodes.

9. Feeling discouraged, player hops into a nearby trabant to grab some fast food.

10. Player finds out he has destroyed $20mil in turbine engines, is unable to afford cheeseburger and fries, opts for two salt packets and a bullion cube.

I guess the moral of the story is: be careful what you wish for. Helicopters are VERY complex machines. Trying to figure one out is not "video-game fun". If BIS put in a complete aircraft simulation, people would be complaining it's too hard.

Wow, just wow.

I didnt think anyone here said they wanted a f@#%ing perfect simulation of a helo or plane.  Where you got such an idea makes me wounder about your thinking abilities....

We want the ability to do something we know we can do, its not the freaking difficult.  Like an earlier poster said, youd be pissed too if you could do everything we can now do with rifles, sept look down the sights.

Or how about the ability to shoot the M24, but not the ability to pull the bolt back.  How about the ability to pull the pin on the grenade before throwing it?

Yes, i understand people can learn to fly like this, yes i understand i could simply not fly, but that isnt the point.  There are those that have learned to play games that lag 100% of the time, are full of hacks, cheats, and glitches, and are no where near as fun as rolling a ball up a hill.  So I guess we should just shut up and play no matter what problems exsist right?

Its a very simple, we dont want the ability to track 15 targets all at onces and fire heat seaking tactical nuclear warheads at them all while doing trig and making a steak in our rooms.  We want the ability to TURN LEFT OR RIGHT with the rudders.  Its not that hard, the fact that it isnt already in the game makes me wounder about BIS and their ability to think clearly. I mean BF2 even has rudder control, and its up their with Doom now in therms of game play.

[subs17 9]

In capitals this time ( forgive me mods):

THE FCS DOES NOT AUTOMATE RUDDER INPUT: IT AUTOMATICALY REACTS TO CHANGES MADE TO THE OTHER INPUT DEVICES.

Another example to show you what I am talking about, just answer the question:

Can the F-16 make a barrel role? Yes/No?

Of course it can and yes the rudder can be used but as I stated its rarely used. Including dogfights you will see why when you check the above link. I agree with the idea of having separate FMs for each aircraft but the rudder depends on the aircraft type and how its used IRL.

I seem to lack the brainpower to explain to you why your statement is wrong.

Rudder was used in BFM from the Fokker E.III to the F/A-22 and it will be used until FBL systems can automaticaly manouvre into lead positions.

At that time there won't be a pilot in the cockpit anyway.

Nevermind mate...gone off topic for to long...

No rudders are generally only used in a dogfight in the slow speed. Generally the pilots try to keep the energy rather than losing it as the slower you are(or faster) turing less tight than what can be acheived whilst turning at the corners speed 330-440kts. By taking the fight to slow speed against a Mig29 or SU27 you are essentially playing the fight at their advantage. If you read the USAF tactics manual you will have a better understanding of what the immediate drills are for F-16 pilots. I'm not saying not to model rudder or flight models correctly what I'm saying is the F-16 pilot rarely uses them. As for the A-10 it may well use the rudder more although I wonder myself so next time I see an A-10 pilot I'll have to ask unless there is any here?

[subs17 9]

Speaking of aircraft check out this video a new 3d model for Arma a Tornado.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=U4a0H1df8TQ

I think the animation for this aircraft looks bloody good I wonder if its a 2 seater online?

[KJAM 0]

All you guys going on about Simulation, you're forgetting the original point and that was that the rudders don't respond well enough when having to engage ground targets.

[Hunin 0]

You are free to believe what you want.

It's off topic and I'm tired to repeat the same thing again and again .

You have had the last word, let it rest.

PS

Yeah, the Tornado looks fine.

And since it is a two seater in real life it will probably be one in this incarnation.

I wonder about the workload of the WSO though.

Hell cool anyway.

[Beagle 684]

Thre is no doubt that the implementition of the loss on rudder authority is plain wrong in current ArmA.

It seems they mistok kilometers per hour with knots.

That would mean the increasing loss of of yaw authority would beginn above 180km/h not at 100km/h with helicopters...and not under 450km/h with fixed wings.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

PS

Yeah, the Tornado looks fine.

And since it is a two seater in real life it will probably be one in this incarnation.

I wonder about the workload of the WSO though.

Hell cool anyway.

Yes it will be a two seater.

The WSO workload will be fairly low but never the less essential to use LGB's

More info here: RKSL Studios website

and here: BIS Forums thread

As i said before, it would be good if the engine could be adapted to support some variable that we could use to define the yaw rate and speed at which you lose authority.

[Hunin 0]

For the sake of independent smart ammunition alone this will be one addon to hold a centre place on the harddrive.

Do you plan to fake an ADV ( meaning no stretched fuselage but AA armament)?

It wouldnt make sense over Sahrani but once the bigger maps appear it sounds like a very cool idea - and feasible without major redesign.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

For the sake of independent smart ammunition alone this will be one addon to hold a centre place on the harddrive.

Do you plan to fake an ADV ( meaning no stretched fuselage but AA armament)?

It wouldnt make sense over Sahrani but once the bigger maps appear it sounds like a very cool idea - and feasible without major redesign.

I think future discussion about the Tornado would be better in the RKSL thread rather than here.

And no i wont be faking anything there will be an F3 version.

[Hunin 0]

All the better

[subs17 9]

Thre is no doubt that the implementition of the loss on rudder authority is plain wrong in current ArmA.

It seems they mistok kilometers per hour with knots.

That would mean the increasing loss of of yaw authority would beginn above 180km/h not at 100km/h with helicopters...and not under 450km/h with fixed wings.

That makes sense although the fixed wing FM is really quite bad(worse than acecombats FM if you could call it one). I think not only the rudder but roll rate, acceleration and rate of climb .

[subs17 9]

PS

Yeah, the Tornado looks fine.

And since it is a two seater in real life it will probably be one in this incarnation.

I wonder about the workload of the WSO though.

Hell cool anyway.

Yes it will be a two seater.

The WSO workload will be fairly low but never the less essential to use LGB's

More info here: RKSL Studios website

and here:  BIS Forums thread

As i said before, it would be good if the engine could be adapted to support some variable that we could use to define the yaw rate and speed at which you lose authority.

Is it possible to have an optical view with zoom for the WSO and are you guys using a similar mod to the one in OFP where a soldier could paint a target for aircraft to drop LGBs on? How would you go about implementing A/A radar for the F3? That Tornado looks excellent BTW.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

PS

Yeah, the Tornado looks fine.

And since it is a two seater in real life it will probably be one in this incarnation.

I wonder about the workload of the WSO though.

Hell cool anyway.

Yes it will be a two seater.

The WSO workload will be fairly low but never the less essential to use LGB's

More info here: RKSL Studios website

and here:  BIS Forums thread

As i said before, it would be good if the engine could be adapted to support some variable that we could use to define the yaw rate and speed at which you lose authority.

Is it possible to have an optical view with zoom for the WSO and are you guys using a similar mod to the one in OFP where a soldier could paint a target for aircraft to drop LGBs on? How would you go about implementing A/A radar for the F3? That Tornado looks excellent BTW.

You should use the RKSL thread if you want to ask questions about RKSL projects. if you read it you'll find all the answers.

[subs17 9]

IF ARMA HAD A PERFECT HELICOPTER SIMULATION:

1. Player climbs into Kiowa.

2. Player clicks on the battery and fuel. Hits the starter.

3. Engine explodes.

4. Player gets out and climbs into next Kiowa on the flight line.

5. Repeat steps 2-4 until player figures out he's doing something wrong.

6. Player reads flight manual.

7. Not understanding what the words "hot start" mean, player attempts to start engine again.

8. Engine whirrs a little, then explodes.

9. Feeling discouraged, player hops into a nearby trabant to grab some fast food.

10. Player finds out he has destroyed $20mil in turbine engines, is unable to afford cheeseburger and fries, opts for two salt packets and a bullion cube.

I guess the moral of the story is: be careful what you wish for. Helicopters are VERY complex machines. Trying to figure one out is not "video-game fun". If BIS put in a complete aircraft simulation, people would be complaining it's too hard.

How about this for a startup sequence.

http://www.thebattlesim.com/index.p....lang=en

Try the startup video and the Abris/WCS.

[Hunin 0]

Great stuff.

Check out the new GA movie "Egde".

http://www.virtual-jabog32.de/index.p....bcat=28

or on youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qywam5omwO0

[hailstorm 4]

riiight. anyhow, suma and i have managed to come to an agreement - aircraft will now be able to use their rudders like they should. hopefully it'll work fairly well, but we'll see.

Bugtracker listing 0002723

[Hunin 0]

This is outstanding and great news!

Thanks a lot.

[Thirdup 0]

I wish ArmA had multi-joystick support.

My rudder peddals are a seperate device as seen thru Windows. Some games/sims allow you to configure "joystick_2" for certain fucntions but I haven't seen any way to do this in ArmA.

[subs17 9]

riiight. anyhow, suma and i have managed to come to an agreement - aircraft will now be able to use their rudders like they should. hopefully it'll work fairly well, but we'll see.

Bugtracker listing 0002723

Thats good to hear I wonder what their intentions are with aircraft in Arma 2? Theres a good opportunity there for them to make some extra money with fully modeled aircraft and vehicle addons. It would certainly add alot more to the enviroment to have actual jet and helicopter sim pilots doing their stuff on the battlefield online. Its possible FighterOps might go the FPS path one day but that will be a few years yet.

[Hunin 0]

I wish ArmA had multi-joystick support.

My rudder peddals are a seperate device as seen thru Windows. Some games/sims allow you to configure "joystick_2" for certain fucntions but I haven't seen any way to do this in ArmA.

I have just bought a new pair of paddles ( Saitek this time) and there is an easy workaround for using a second controller.

Just use your programming application and assign the rudder axis to work like the X-axis of the mouse.

In case of Saitek open the Profile Editor and klick on the "rudder" tab.

There are four options you can choose "axis, bands, mouse X axis and mouse Y axis".

Select one of the mouse axis and activate the profile. Then just map the rudder to this axis in the games controll setup.

Works perfectly.