Aircraft Rudders

[frederf 0]

@HailStorm: My understanding of rudder-causing-bank is that the center of the rudder's pressure on the airframe is above the aircraft's roll center, but no matter. It did look rather wings-level in the video and I was simply surprised at the yaw rate with rudder at wings-level, my fading memory of a C172N was different. Of course different planes have different flight characteristics.

Overall I find ArmA to be an infantry sim with "stuff on top" and it's with attitude that I hope not to be caught up in the helicopter-drooling, jet-afterburner frenzy that distances me from the humble and satisfying ground experience. Not to say that if armor/air plays a secondary role to the primary focus on infantry that those minor roles should be performed without hokey controls.

I appreciate the idea of "identify the biggest flaw in the FM, address it, repeat" manner of improvement. The rudder thing is pretty much tied with thrust-management and fuel-management issues.

[max power 21]

Pennywise, I don't see any high speed maneuvering with the tail-rotor in any of your videos. Without seeing the instrumentation, nothing can be gleaned from those videos. Most of the maneuvering in those videos is at the top of hammerhead turns, where the aircraft will have lost significant airspeed from climbing. Moreover, a black hawk pilot stated that in earlier patches in arma, the loss of tail rotor authority was by and large realistic but the onset was too early, IIRC. BIS has since changed the way the tail rotor handles significantly, and it would be nice to hear another appraisal. And lastly, comparing RC helicopters to real ones isn't going to help you. RC helicopters have so little stress put on them and so much available power that they really aren't the same creature. Most of them also operate differently in that they have devices on the main rotor with gyroscopic arms that auto-correct the model aircraft because they are so tiny and unstable. Instability = maneuverability. The only thing that's similar between real helicopters are their model counterparts is that they both fly with rotating wings above their fuselages.

[suma 8]

in addition, i've noticed a peculiar aspect of ArmA's flight model that i haden't noticed before - when the pilot banks his aircraft in-game, the program also automatically applies full rudder INTO the turn.

Thanks for pointing this out, really the current turn auto coordination done by the autopilot is buggy and I will fix it, I will also make sure it is always possible to override automatic rudder by a manual input.

Quote[/b] ] but only if the understand the physics behind it - why it happens, what causes it, etc., and in addition, the physics of the methods pilots use to rectify it. if they don't understand all that, then DON'T ADD IT. i'd rather an 'autopilot' that makes flying easier. i don't want one that gives me problems that shouldn't be there.

While I do not like some of your comments and I find them somewhat unnecessarily aggressive, still I appreciate your dedication - the fact you are able to shoot a video in the real life flight just for the purpose of us fixing the turn dynamics really impresses me, and I guess it probably indicates you are interested in ArmA really a lot.

I cannot make any promises, but I will try to revisit the turn dynamics one more time and hopefully we will find some way to come with a solution which will satisfy your wishes and yet will not be very difficult to implement.

(Please, be aware discussing details is currently way beyond my possibilities, having other tasks to do. I will not post further comments to this topic until a next patch is published and there is something new to be discussed)

[malick 0]

While I do not like some of your comments and I find them somewhat unnecessarily aggressive, still I appreciate your dedication - the fact you are able to shoot a video in the real life flight just for the purpose of us fixing the turn dynamics really impresses me, and I guess it probably indicates you are interested in ArmA really a lot.

I cannot make any promises, but I will try to revisit the turn dynamics one more time and hopefully we will find some way to come with a solution which will satisfy your wishes and yet will not be very difficult to implement.

(Please, be aware discussing details is currently way beyond my possibilities, having other tasks to do. I will not post further comments to this topic until a next patch is published and there is something new to be discussed)

Suma, you never cease to amaze me !

I've been following many threads like this one, with dissatisfied players raging about specific aspect of the simulation.

Even if ArmA/ArmA2 will never be complete simulations for every available vehicle (car, bike, tank, plane, helicopter, ship) , the fact that you correct bugs or improve/tweak the simulation proves your and your team's dedication to the game.

Now, I hope you won't be too offended by some of the comments on most of these threads. People (me among them) tend to forget what size BIS really is, and how hard it is to develop a program.

And I will gladly take any improvement over the flight model you can come up with !  

Malick

[[aps]gnat 28]

... the fact you are able to shoot a video in the real life flight just for the purpose of us fixing the turn dynamics really impresses me, and I guess it probably indicates you are interested in ArmA really a lot.

Great to see a post from you, but I assume you are seeking a few more views.

No disrepect to HailStorm, he has brought up some very good discussion, but I would caution against expecting 1 video to tell the whole story.

Some/many/most (strike out whichever you feel appropraite) aircarft also bank when rudder only is used.

[suma 8]

Gnat @ Jan. 09 2008,15:25)]Great to see a post from you, but I assume you are seeking a few more views.

No, I am sorry, I am not seeking for any more views. There is already more than enough of views expressed in this topic - and there is already more of them then we can implement.

I am not trying to simulate exactly what is shown in the video, it only made me to revisit the topic because I think such dedicated and non-trivial effort deserves some effort on our side.

[[aps]gnat 28]

... it only made me to revisit the topic because I think such dedicated and non-trivial effort deserves some effort on our side.

And fair enough too. Cheers.

Sorry, when I said "assume you are seeking a few more views." I didn't so much mean more views typed here, I actually meant more along the lines of professional third parties .... you know, head to the Pub where all the pilots hang out.

[subs17 9]

While the flight model in ArmA has improved some, I think there is still room for more improvement on aircraft in ArmA.  I agree with many in this thread; the rudder just doesn't respond as you would expect it to.

Its not a matter on basing the performance on what people expect it is more a matter on basing it on real flight data and flight characteristics. I think overall any increase in detail in such areas helps make the sim more realistic and could have the benefit of getting military purchases such as VBS series.

[hailstorm 4]

Suma, what else can i say, Thanks for reading this thread again and replying!

i'm really sorry if i sound short, i really do appeciate what you and the team do, and i think such tactiful and thought out responses deserves one in return - so i formally apologise if i come off as overly hostile or aggressive. sometimes i think the link of what i'm trying to say in my brain and what appears in the forums can get somewhat severed at times! so, once again, sorry if it all sounds awkward and ungratified. it's not my aim.

if you want my opinion, i think the ideal effect that should be represented (in terms of turn rate and circumfrence) would be the Falcon 4 video that's on page 1 of this thread (and here as well - but any documents relating directly to the performance of the AV-8B, A-10, Su-34 and Sopwith Camel would obviously have precidence) but, failing that, it should feel 'comfortable' i.e., it should feel like the rudder position signifigantly affects an aircrafts' flightpath, but not make the pilot rely too much on it - for example, he/she shoud be able to rely on it to fine-tune the lining-up of guns on a moving ground target (regardless of how far away the nose was initially), but at the same time not rely on it for turning instead of banking the wings (a la BF2).

i can't vouch for helicopters, as i've never flown one - but  if anyone out there that can fly a (real) helo and has the ability to - please submit a video of a tail rotor/rudder turn in straight and level flight (at signifigant speed). i'm sure it'll make all the difference.

can i just ask one thing, suma? exactly what 'autopilots' are modeled into the flight model, and is it posible to switch some of these off? i'm not sure the 'auto-coordination' one (and the throttle one, to be honest) are actually needed at all - shouldn't it just be left solely up to whoever is flying to enter in these inputs and others like it? as i said before, i can understand if you're trying to make things simpler, but these are things that really arn't needed - and at times can really make things a handful when the player is one who knows what their doing. if they want a certain throttle setting, even if that makes them stall and pancake the ground, let them hold it; if they want to keep rudders neutral while turning, even if they slip out and dutch roll because of it, let them have that too. it's just annoying to get the feeling that the player is never fully in control - and also, it prevents some perfectly alright manuvers from occuring (sideslips, cobras, etc.)

edit: i also wanna add one thing as well: take your time on this! i never asked for an improvement in the next patch, i just asked for an improvement. i also understand there are more serious issues/bugs to fix - so what i'm saying is that maybe it won't be ready for 1.09 final, maybe it'll be for 1.10 or whatever, it dosen't matter - as long as eventually, we'll see a flight model good and worthy of the game it's in. take your time, do the research, get coding - create something that really works - i think the issue really deserves that.