I can't rotate the helicopters it's when moving?

[-=seany=- 5]

The one thing that points out to me that the flight modeling of the rudder for air vehicles is wrong is the A10. At speed, in this too, the ruder is completely useless. This is a CAS aircraft which is highly maneuverable and unless the guys who made LockOn totally messed up (which I some how doubt) that plane should be able to use the rudder with ease to line up ground targets for attack with the gun and rockets.

I have never flown a helo sim or a harrier sim, so I was hesitant about posting about the irritating yaw control in these. But since flying the A10 there is definitely some thing wrong here with the yaw control for all aircraft.

[walker 0]

Hi all

If you are going to show a KA50 video I think this one shows its capabilities better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCGwurm94ZM&NR=1

As to the ArmA KA50.

Config changes and possibly some rebalancing of the geo load are needed all doable. I would expect it in a future realism mod from someone like the ACE mod team.

Kind Regards walker

[fish44 0]

Your observations are correct.

And to make a long story short: It's not a bug in ArmA.

To explain it I first need to adress the orginial problem.

The rudder authority is very restricted in high speeds.

This means that you cannot quickly change your direction of motion .

It is a misconception that the Ka-50 can turn on a dime.

It can however yaw the nose very rapidly.

How that?

The helicopter moves into a certain direction with a given force.

This force is generated by the collective.

If the pilot steps onto the rudder he basicly cuts or adds power to the tail rotor ( or one of the 2 main rotors in case of the Blackshark).

This yaws the fuselage because of the rotation force of the main rotor.

So if a pilot yaws he does not automaticaly change the collective and therefor does not automaticaly change the direction of movement.

From second 30 onwards you can see it pretty nicely in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEULmkKbw0Y

The whole process is a matter of engine power ( the Ka-50 having plenty of it) - but this kind of manouvering isn't only for double Rotor systems; I remember seeing a Bundeswehr UH Tiger

doing exactly the same thing on the last ILA in Berlin.

So BIS has it correct that in ARMA you move the fuselage in relation to the direction of movement, rather then the miracle

rudder turn from OFP.

The point where your angle of rudder authority decreases is the point were the airflow ( speed ) is a greater force then the power capabilitys of your tail rotor.

Depending on Helo this point should be present at an average 270 km/h.

I have the strong feeling that rudder and collective are not really seperated by the engine to enable mouse and keyboard users to "somehow" get into the air.

But it is the same problem with the planes.

They have zero rudder authority.

Good post.

Couple of points to add.

Pilots dont' use rudder at high speed. It can cause structural damage to most rotary wing aircraft.

In dual rotor aircraft, due to the time taken for the rotor speed to adjust, its quicker to use the clyclic input to either slow or to turn the machine. Again rudder is not used at high speed.

Since neither of the above is modelled, in ArmA, the compromise which BIS made is a valid one.

I have spend many hours in both rotary and fixed wing PC flight simulators, and my advice is if you want to fly simulators, dont use ArmA for it, it is a battle simulator, not a flight simulator.

[fish44 0]

BUZZARD @ June 15 2007,18:47)]............ BIS should put up the use of a joystick as a mandatory requirement ...................

I have to disagree.

For rotary wing aircraft. BIS have kept the model simple enough that with mouse and keyboard, you can become quite adept with these. Especially given the short nature of most of the flights. And if you use TIR then it the icing on the cake. Its great to be able to get in fly, fight, land jump out, and run into battle, all with the same controls.

I do agree that trying to fly with keys for cyclic inputs is tricky, and dont recommend that for comabt, but you could work it for some basic transporting at a push.

[Gisen 0]

I think the best current flight model for helicopters is Enemy Engaged Comanche Hokum with all the community updates (they released the source code a while back. EECH 2 is not as good in terms of flightmodelling as they used an older version then updated the graphics)

If you try those helis with the flight model on full (i.e. the rudder seperate from the main cyclic, not crosscoupled) you can, with a lot of practice, start doing the kind of manoeuvres that real helicopter pilots use. Which is exactly how it should be in Arma. In order to use rockets and forward firing cannons properly the rudder is absolutely essential.

And it shouldnt magically stop working at a certain speed, it should just not work as well proportional to the airspeed.

[fish44 0]

I think the best current flight model for helicopters is Enemy Engaged Comanche Hokum with all the community updates.............

Until Black Shark comes along  

[Hunin 0]

O my.

How long are we waiting for this now?

I slowly tend to believe it will be 08 till we have version 1.21 ( or whatever they will give BS).

[Sedarine 0]

I think the best current flight model for helicopters is Enemy Engaged Comanche Hokum with all the community updates.............

Until Black Shark comes along  

>.>

The Arma FM needs work, I agree...but link the people to some of what is going on rather that just the site

youtube

[sle 0]

I think people are missing the point. There's always people who will come along here on the internets and say their best buddy's a helo pilot and blah blah blah.. But the fact remains that if an object is moving, it suffers inertia, which, as I'm sure you all know, is a (strong) resistance to change in direction or speed.

Please consider this when expecting helos to turn on a dime midair at any speed.

[-=seany=- 5]

What about the planes then? when i mention this no one seems to be bothered, but what is with the lack of Yaw control in the A10 and harrier???

[Gisen 0]

I think people are missing the point. There's always people who will come along here on the internets and say their best buddy's a helo pilot and blah blah blah.. But the fact remains that if an object is moving, it suffers inertia, which, as I'm sure you all know, is a (strong) resistance to change in direction or speed.

Please consider this when expecting helos to turn on a dime midair at any speed.

...and there are always people who don't know anything at all about physics or realistic flight models, but who bandy about terms like inertia or attack straw man claims.

Nobody said helicopters should be able to 'turn on a dime midair' [sic] at any speed. People want a better simulation of the real life abilities of helicopters, because the present model in Arma is not good from a gameplay perspective or from a realism perspective.

@fish:

Yes, I forgot to mention black shark.

[Hunin 0]

I think he didn't even read the posts.

It was stated ten times ( directly and indirectly) that its not about turn but yaw.

Fact is that the yaw in Arma is realistic.

Its just the speed that is wrong ( as we can see on the planes wich have no rudder input at all).

The problem here is that both helos and planes use the same basic FM in ArmA - but a plane does not yaw without automaticaly changing the direction of movement.

If both use the same basic FM, it will be impossible to have both - realistic helo yaw ( ingame now ) and realistic plane yaw ( impossible because planes helo yaw right now ).

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

Yeah, I've discovered that too whilst testing out my new Speedlink Black Widow controller, Aircraft yaw is completely insufferable and unrealistic, and then it dawned on me that they had helo yaw... All I can say is: This needs to be fixed, because planes don't yaw like that!!!    

Why oh why did they have to change the flight model since OFP? Definitely didn't follow the rule: If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!!

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

BUZZARD @ June 25 2007,14:01)]Yeah, I've discovered that too whilst testing out my new Speedlink Black Widow controller, Aircraft yaw is completely insufferable and unrealistic, and then it dawned on me that they had helo yaw... All I can say is: This needs to be fixed, because planes don't yaw like that!!!

Why oh why did they have to change the flight model since OFP? Definitely didn't follow the rule: If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!!

Well, I never flew a jet, but I have flown gliders for a long time. The yaw in the planes feel very much like a the yaw of a glider.

But as I said, never flewn a jet.

The flight model in ArmA is much better than in OFP. I remember being able to land the A-10 anywhere on the map by simply shutting down the engine, and put the noise up, the a-10 would then slowly glide to the ground making a vertical landing

[-ZG-BUZZARD 0]

The problem is, when you do a victory roll, the plane doesn't turn about its own axis in the direction it's going, it turns around an axis that is far above it, which makes no logic at all...

[Hunin 0]

Again this may be due to the fact that planes and helicopters use the same "mass inertia engine".

In the planes if you bank to either side or produce a high AoA

situation you can almost feel the non existend rotor loosing vertical thrust.

Try performing a shallow High Yoyo and I'm shure you will see what I mean.

At least the yaw should be easy to correct.

I mean I dont expect them to build a complete. new energy modell for the planes but fixing the "concrete-rudders" will both benifit helos ( more realistic controll ) and planes ( at least the ability to aim properly ).

[max power 21]

You can expect a high degree of skidding in helicopters because of their very small wing area. I don't think that helicopters are the best platform for yo-yos. Do not expect them to behave like aeroplanes. I don't see anything unrealistic about helicopters skidding all over the place per se.

[frederf 0]

I think he means that airplanes (fixed wing aircraft) are behaving like helicopters during such yoyo maneuvers instead of like airplanes.

[max power 21]

Well then, permit me to shut my mouth

I only notice lots of skidding when the a10 is stalling below 250 km/h, myself.

[azdood 0]

Well since I've actually flown helicopters for half my life I believe I can give some advice on the situation.

First of all, when a helicopter is in forward flight using your right or left pedals just to turn, (just pressing the x or c button to turn around) this would cause an instant stall. OR If you were flying in a MI24 Hind just applying too much pedal would cut your tail boom in half.

Im not saying its impossible, usually the tail rotor is used to counter the main rotors natural torque. Usually when your hovering or in a slow low forward speed, like 15mph and 20 feet from the ground, you would yaw using the pedals.

So BI is probly trying to simulate more accuratly what it would be like to fly a helicopter.(To me they are no where close, its more like flying a gyrocopter)

Hopefully yall learned a little more bout helicopters.

P.S. To many of you that think flight sim games for the computer are realistic and you think you know how to fly a helicopter now should go steal a helicopter and I'll visit ya in a hospital or your grave. The ONLY sim game that is anywhere close to flying an actual helicopter would be the flight simulators the military I've been in and helicopter schools use.

[LeftSkidLow 1]

First of all, when a helicopter is in forward flight using your right or left pedals just to turn, (just pressing the x or c button to turn around) this would cause an instant stall. OR If you were flying in a MI24 Hind just applying too much pedal would cut your tail boom in half.

Instant stall? what is going to stall? I know you aren't talking about retreating blade stall, so maybe LTE but that doesn't involve anything stalling. I don't know anything about Mi-24's but if you jam a legfull of pedal in a Hughes 500 at 100 knots its gonna fly out of trim, if slow down a bit more you can fly that sucker sideways. In ArmA the A/Mh-6's are cruising around 200 kilometers per hour which is about 108 knots and they will barely fly out of trim.

[frederf 0]

By "fly out of trim" I assume you mean uncoordinated flight. Instant stall? WTF?

[LeftSkidLow 1]

By "fly out of trim" I assume you mean uncoordinated flight.

Yeah

[seba1976 98]

BUZZARD @ June 25 2007,14:01)]Why oh why did they have to change the flight model since OFP? Definitely didn't follow the rule: If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!!  

Spot on. I could only guess they tried to change as many things as they could, within the limited time/resources framework they had, so they change all the easiest things to change - and there it went our perfectly balanced flight model.

As I have come to realize lately, the "new" "flight model" - and I use the quotes because to me it is neither new nor flight model - is only the old movement model, with all the helping code routines removed. And though that is the first step in the way to a dedicated flight simulator, they didn't take the next ones - like for example, a long-time-to-develop relation between the control imputs and the effects on the FM. To me BIS do not have the kind of people needed for that.

I think that's pretty much all what they did, and that's all what we're suffering from. Needless to say, no patch is gonna ever fix this - the code to be patched is not even written. I guess the probabilities are pretty low on this, but I think the best thing for BIS to do will be to put the old FM back - if at all possible.

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]Why oh why did they have to change the flight model since OFP? Definitely didn't follow the rule: If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it!!

I think you have a gas leak in your house. The OFP flight model was most assuredly broken.