No Elevation

[domox 0]

Why is there no elevation adjustment for rifles that have adjustment knobs. With the m107 to get a 1-2km kill I have to aim so high the target is almost out of my sight ring. For the m107 this is absurd. It is like the howitzer, it is little more than a high caliber prop if you cannot do the anti-material/ant-personnel role at the ranges the weapon was intended to be used at.

Please add zeroing of some sort. Even having it like the stock m107 with zero ranges from 50- 1000-1500.

Thanks

[churnedfortaste 0]

I made a huge thread about adding adjustable sights for weapons, and a heck of a lot of people agreed, but BIS didn't notice the demand really

[xxbbcc 6]

I agree, it is very annoying and it happens very frequently. It's sometimes very hard to target because the sight covers up the view.

[shataan 1]

I`d love to be able to adjust my ACOG sight for distance to target /bullet drop. The adjustment is only in 100 meter increments, so peeps would still have to adjust their aim. But it would FEEL so much better.

[max power 21]

I made a huge thread about adding adjustable sights for weapons, and a heck of a lot of people agreed, but BIS didn't notice the demand really

You figure they didn't notice because the code didn't teleport itself into your hard drive?

I'm quite sure they have much higher priorities before they even begin to consider such a thing.

[4 IN 1 0]

I made a huge thread about adding adjustable sights for weapons, and a heck of a lot of people agreed, but BIS didn't notice the demand really  

You figure they didn't notice because the code didn't teleport itself into your hard drive?

I'm quite sure they have much higher priorities before they even begin to consider such a thing.

"i know what you mean but that cannot be done"

maybe this is the case

[frederf 0]

Idle note of curiosity:

Does anyone know if sight adjustment is a part of VBS1 or VBS2? For the military I imagine adjusting sights would be a big part of the product.

[chops 111]

Seeing as they STILL have those laserbeam tracers for rifles, I think adjustable sights are still a very long way off, sweet as they would be.

[4 IN 1 0]

Idle note of curiosity:

Does anyone know if sight adjustment is a part of VBS1 or VBS2? For the military I imagine adjusting sights would be a big part of the product.

it didnt show anything like this on the video nor the features page of VBS2 homepage

i think there is a differents between basic training and VBS, anyway not something needed to go deeply

[max power 21]

Seeing as they STILL have those laserbeam tracers for rifles, I think adjustable sights are still a very long way off, sweet as they would be.

This is assuming that they wish to change those tracers, which perhaps they don't.

I take it to mean that you don't like the look of the tracers or the fact that they can't turn off. I assume they mean to turn them off or modify them in some way but I doubt they will change their look very much.

[MehMan 0]

Idle note of curiosity:

Does anyone know if sight adjustment is a part of VBS1 or VBS2? For the military I imagine adjusting sights would be a big part of the product.

it didnt show anything like this on the video nor the features page of VBS2 homepage

i think there is a differents between basic training and VBS, anyway not something needed to go deeply

Yeah, I don't think VBS is meant to train soldiers how to use weapons but how to operate as unit in combat situtations.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Frederf

VBS does not teach marksmanship. You cannot learn to shoot with a keyboard simulation. Firing a gun is about the kinesthetic memory attached to a rifle not that attached to to a keyboard.

VBS teaches things like communication, situational awareness as well as tactical and low level strategic thought. Its main ability is to integrate all arms and put the user in place to think about and analyse the consequences of their actions.

That is why the military dubbed it a First Person Thinker

Elevation Modeling and the fine line between game and a munitions level simulation

Part task trainers for actual weapons and weapon systems are a whole different kettle of fish. They begin to fall under munition level simulations and big nasty bits of law where the FBI and the like will visit you. That is why you will never see a full on MANPADS simulation in ArmA. It will always be low accuracy approximation. Don't expect that fully accurate mortar Sim in ArmA either for similar reasons; we don't want the terrorists in Iraq learning how to aim those mortars do we?

As to reasonably accurate modeling of an artillery piece elevation windage leveling sighting etc. The chance of a terrorist obtaining one is very low. They cost a lot are very hard to maintain most have their own little idiosynchracies, barrel wear in its various convoluted forms has to be recorded and and added to the guns calculations, mills in different forms even degrees, minutes and seconds on some EEK! X different types of sight with tens of little parts to alter and hundreds to maintain. Big ass things to try to hide or move and modern armies will pick it out and counter battery its ass in seconds.

All of which add up to not much chance of an insurgent getting hold of one and virtually no chance of them ever being able to fire one accurately and live long after the first shell. That said if I was to add one to ArmA I would still cripple it to make it negative train.

Consequently those part task trainers are the bits that will always be reserved for VBS.

Back to the original point

That said I do not see why there can not not be a mod of rifle elevation and windage put in ArmA. AFAIK wind effects are not modeled in ArmA yet but we can model it at CoC so I do not see why we cannot add it as an overall ballistic solution at some point.

Kind Regards walker

[Donnervogel 0]

Hi all

In reply to Frederf

VBS does not teach marksmanship. You cannot learn to shoot with a keyboard simulation. Firing a gun is about the kinesthetic memory attached to a rifle not that attached to to a keyboard.

VBS teaches things like communication, situational awareness as well as tactical and low level strategic thought. Its main ability is to integrate all arms and put the user in place to think about and analyse the consequences of their actions.

That is why the military dubbed it a First Person Thinker

Elevation Modeling and the fine line between game and a munitions level simulation

Part task trainers for actual weapons and weapon systems are a whole different kettle of fish. They begin to fall under munition level simulations and big nasty bits of law where the FBI and the like will visit you. That is why you will never see a full on MANPADS simulation in ArmA. It will always be low accuracy approximation. Don't expect that fully accurate mortar Sim in ArmA either for similar reasons; we don't want the terrorists in Iraq learning how to aim those mortars do we?

As to reasonably accurate modeling of an artillery piece elevation windage leveling sighting etc. The chance of a terrorist obtaining one is very low. They cost a lot are very hard to maintain most have their own little idiosynchracies, barrel wear in its various convoluted forms has to be recorded and and added to the guns calculations, mills in different forms even degrees, minutes and seconds on some EEK! X different types of sight with tens of little parts to alter and hundreds to maintain. Big ass things to try to hide or move and modern armies will pick it out and counter battery its ass in seconds.

All of which add up to not much chance of an insurgent getting hold of one and virtually no chance of them ever being able to fire one accurately and live long after the first shell. That said if I was to add one to ArmA I would still cripple it to make it negative train.

Consequently those part task trainers are the bits that will always be reserved for VBS.

Back to the original point

That said I do not see why there can not not be a mod of rifle elevation and windage put in ArmA. AFAIK wind effects are not modeled in ArmA yet but we can model it at CoC so I do not see why we cannot add it as an overall ballistic solution at some point.

Kind Regards walker

uhm this training argument is a bit silly. It is very easy to get information about how to fire real mortars or manpads etc (some informations are ven available from official US military manuals available on the internet without restriction). Lots of people around the world have been trained to do so too (even the evil taleban have been by the CIA) and there is a number of conscription armies that teach those things to people that don't even want to know it. To get hold of a trained person and teach you how to use this stuff is rather easy. Also considering the US is exporting mortars and manpads all over the world. And as you said a computer game doies not sufficently simulate what it takes to make a 100% realistic representation. This goes for Stingers as well as for normal rifles.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Donnervogel

Quote[/b] ]British Muslim convert jailed for terrorism offences

Hugh Muir

Saturday September 24, 2005

The Guardian

A British Muslim convert was jailed for 15 years yesterday after being caught with details of how to fire mortar bombs and secret codes to facilitate terror attacks. In the first major terrorist trial since the London bombings, Andrew Rowe, 34, was found guilty of two charges at the Old Bailey. He received seven and a half years for each offence...

Follow link for the full story

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,15935,1577303,00.html

So that person got seven years for taking a training manual on mortars across a border. A point for those enthusiast who download mortar manuals and leave them on their laptop hint hint. Unless you have security clearance do not do it.

Quote[/b] ]The ITAR risk

U.S. export rules a minefield for sim companies  

By Rebecca Rayko

October 16, 2006 October 24, 2006  

The growing use of simulation technology by the world’s militaries has opened a huge new market, not only to defense companies but also to commercial software, technology and even gaming companies over the past few years. With a few software tweaks or modifications, for example, a gaming company’s latest shooter can become a military’s next battle-space simulation trainer.

But what some companies may not realize is that making certain changes to appeal to the worldwide defense market subjects them to the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) — a complex set of rules that define what may and may not be sold in the export market. Even a seemingly minor adjustment can cause an entire product to fall under ITAR control, and a company found to be in violation of ITAR faces fines up to $500,000 per incident, unannounced government audits, and reviews or even criminal penalties, according to Jeremy Huffman, a Washington-based attorney with Huffman Riley Kao, which specializes in export laws.

“You don’t have to make significant modifications to a product for ITAR to govern it. Any modification can do it if it’s a military application,†Huffman said. “That’s something many companies miss if they grew up in the commercial environment.†...

Follow link for the whole article

http://www.tsjonline.com/story.php?F=2113205

Ignorance of a law is no defence!

A little background reading and links. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ITAR

Obviously you need to read your individual nations laws on ITAR and MANPADS

You also have various parts of laws regarding simulations that classify them as a munition when they reach a certain level. This means they come under Arms Export regulation. So walking across a border with them is the point where the Law is broken.

MANPADS come under specific laws and are the most strict sections under ITAR and the international MANPADS treaty and the consequent laws enacted by each signatory nation. Soldiers trained in their use know what is classified and should know not to cross the line. These are an international laws and are very heavily policed. So don't make an exact anti aircraft missile simulation or expect an after midnight visit from the real MIB  

At Applied Gnosis Group LLC as we began to develop things that got close we asked our lawyer for an opinion of how close we could go; we then give it a wide berth. Most of it is just common sense though.

Kind Regards walker

[Donnervogel 0]

@walker

I don't doubt that it is illegal I just find it silly The argumentation that you want to prevent the knowledge to spread to your enemy/people that should not have it is undermined by the actions and practices of those that ponder on those laws most.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Donnervogel

Many laws may be deemed by some as silly or stupid or unworkable, they are still the law. Rastas may object to laws on maruajna but they still go to jail for possession in many countries. If said Rasta buys some maruajna in a coffee shop in Amsterdam or takes it off a bush in NZ they are not breaking the law but if they a carrying it on and off the airplane the minute their plane arrives in Heathrow or Kennedy airport well we all know what happens.

In the UK if you sell bananas by the pound weight instead of kilograms you can be arrested for illegal weights and measures but if you give the kilogram weight in small letters as well you are fine. Of course your accounts and suppliers have to be in Kg so you have those weights any way.

Likewise laws on simulation are very nuanced make a missile that follows a target in a game and you are not doing anything wrong. Now make that missile follow the flight characteristics of a real MANPADS missile and make the sighting the same as the real thing and add its tracking capabilities and you have a swift taxi to jail.

Have your too keen and not very bright buddy in the Army show you lots of pictures he took of the inside of his latest tank and you then use them to texture the inside of a tank Sim in ArmA and ditto. Only ever use approved open source pictures for that.  

Some laws only apply at the point of physical export. You can make some simulations legally in your own country but step across the border or post them and you just broke the law.

When it all comes down to it laws are laws and unless you are prepared to do the time don't do the crime. Encouraging others to break the law on your behalf is also against the law and plain unethical.

Kind Regards walker

[Donnervogel 0]

Well yes, I am not encouraging anybody to break the law and I understand how it works.

It was just an expression of my opinion. I understand the problem and I comment it. That's all. Don't interpret too much into it

But now we should get back on topic.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Donnervogel

Not accusing anyone mate    

Just making sure people are aware of the limits that apply to ArmA because it is a such a good simulation and of the legal limits to how far BIS as with any other developer including modders can go with a game.

It was also to act as a warning to other mod teams about using advice and information from former soldiers, apply common sense.

As to the point of the thread accurate simulation of how a particular artillery gun works is unlikely to happen in ArmA anything that is not open source info is not possible for BIS or any mod developer to use. That said a generalised solution is possible but why would you do it?

Far better and more fun is a UA type solution where the shell follows a ballistic path, though not a real gun one; so that you can play at calling in fire on the target and experience an aproximation of the application and limitations of artilery support, such as reverse slopes, high versus low angle fire and what effect they have on aproximations of the correct fuze and warhead.

Kind Regards walker

[Heatseeker 0]

I dont buy it... Arma is a neat piece of software that tries to simulate a bit of the real deal, the means to achieve are all software/code based workarounds.

The simulation will never recreate these "systems" very acurately. Rocket fuel consumption, mechanical and electronical devices... etc, there isnt much of a fundament.

You could say the same about a G36 or Kalashnikov rifle, Arma simulates the models, the sights and the rounds. It doesnt simulate the mechanical operation of these rifles.. just their behaviour.

I would understand the concern about using registered trademarks... some companies avoid it.

What about real simulators like MS's flight sim series, lock on, steal beasts, etc? You seem concerned that a few modders might offer competition to serious game developers?

[volkov956 0]

you want scope adjustments check out the Delta Force 1-3 series

Would make sniping in arma a little easier with scope adjustments tho

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to Heatseeker:

Have you read the articles I linked to?

ArmA is the basis for VBS and that certainly is used for some part task trainers. It is more than capable of doing accurate simulations for a part task trainer in any of several roles. That is why so many in the military have started to buy it.

You cannot compare a rifle to a MANPADS or more complex weapons systems. Rifles are rarely classified, though ammunition, body armor penetration tables, range, accuracy and muzzle velocity can be. Outside of weapons systems are rarely classified but the inside of things like striker often are, as photos might include OPSEC information as complex as as anti laser guidance systems or information as simple as radio channels left on the channel indicator.

ArmA is a real simulator that is why so many military have bought VBS. Steel beasts comes in several forms including a professional version that is only available to the military, they even do a part task simulator for use by Leopard turret crew. MS flight Sim flight model characteristics and weapon simulation only use permitted open source data. You will not find detailed flight envelope data on any classified weapon system in a public flight Sim what you get is a limited approximation.

I pointed out the articles as proof of what I was saying. Those were real companies being fined hundreds of thousands and even millions of dollars. That was a real person going to to jail for real for a real seven years for the real crime of taking a mortar manual over a border; yes I know he was a terrorist but just like Al Capone was got on taxes and many non gangsters go to jail for just the same, if you carry a mortar manual across a border without an export license and security clearance, you are breaking the law.

You can ignore the facts at your own peril or do like we did and get a lawyer to point out the pitfalls and what you need to do.

Kind Regards walker

[domox 0]

you want scope adjustments check out the Delta Force 1-3 series

Would make sniping in arma a little easier with scope adjustments tho

DF 1-3, DF:X and JO/JOE are hardly the same sort of game as ARMA. Those are in the arcade/action category. If there are a few adjustments arma can be considered a tactical sim.

As far as information export on arms. Scope elevation/windage is hardly a department of defense concern. Barret recently testified in courts how easy it would be for a novice to hit a vehicle sized target with the m82a1 or m107 at 1km, as a matter of fact it was designed to be simple. This means, if an extremist was able to acquire one, it wouldn't matter if they had played ARMA first or not. Not to mention, i read some articles where they were using BF2 to train, I say let them. BF2 and even ARMA are hardly ideal training environments, none of them will replace field experience and instructors.

To BI:

Rifle elevation is a must, esp. if you expect us to use the weapons in game for the roles they are intended to play.

[maddogx 13]

To bring this thread back on topic:

I don't know if anyone noticed this, but as of 1.07, there has been a small change to the engine:

Quote[/b] ]

5153 - New: Weapons - optics camera can have a different direction than muzzle direction now

^^ that, my friends, is basically the door to adjustable sights, and If I'm not mistaken, it should not be impossible for BIS to implement them.

It's all down to:

1. Do they have the time for it?

2. Do they even wish to do it?

3. Would they be facing legal problems if they did?

Just my 2 Eurocents.

regards

Mad

[Sniperdoc 0]

I agree. Adjustable windage and elevation would be pretty cool... Well, just elevation really since there's no modeled wind in the game.

It really is odd that on the first Sniper mission in the Campaign, when I'm shooting from the water tower, that I have to aim LOW to hit the targets. I have to aim high between the crosshair and first upper mil dot (just a tad below the first mil dot).

So, something's up with that... unless the rifle is zeroed for 400 yards.  

[Spokesperson 0]

Yes it would be great. It would be great if we could smell the arma smell too.

I don't see any ways to implement this in a non-clumsy way. (Ok, maybe +/-) And it would require loads of people to learn how to adjust guns etc.