Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for ArmA

[dmarkwick 261]

Yeah it's pretty difficult to have coherent discrete discussions with the strange rules here. Merges, outright locking, banned (yet relevant) topics. However, not my forum etc etc.

So.. this guide, it's a living document yes? As must-have addons & mods come into popular use I expect some areas can be expanded on etc.

[opteryx 1562]

...........Anyway..

I'm curious to know if the PDF version of the guide coming out will have updates when there's more info added to the online version?

[walker 0]

Hi all

In reply to froggyluv

Both threads are clearly about where and in what ways one applies "Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for ArmA"

Having duplicate threads on one subject is not constructive.

Dslyecxi's article :

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html

...which we are all in agreement is an excellent starting point; clearly triggered the debate as Dslyecxi intended. orlok the originator of the other thread admitted the same above.

Quote[/b] ]...Yes Dix's site did to some length influence my original post, but  it was something that i had thought about before his site (good as it is) came into being.  

And unfortunately due to the similar time of the threads (my fault perhaps) they seem to have run together in a squidgy mess...

the "...squidgy mess.." was inherent in the concept of a duplicate post on tactics. I certainly thought they were identical posts. While orlok's post might have some value as an anti-thesis it could only support that in the light of the original thread that triggered it. Thinking of something while valuable to this forum is not the same as publishing. As with any academic argument the publisher sets the thesis it is then up to the originators peers to post comment and anti-thesis. This is what drives debate.

One thing I can say is the merging of these threads on the same subject has clearly triggered an increase in the debate and raised the passion in it. Probably because there was some atempt at anti-thesis. My opinion is that keeping them seperate was not beneficial orloks thread was degenerating into a CTF/CS discusion and Dslyecxi thread was becomming an all praise the great Dslyecxi thread, while I do praise him I do not want his head to swell too much.  

The moddies merging them did that most important of moddy jobs: stimulation of debate! A stagnant forum is a boring forum.

This is all to the good of the ArmA community, for it is by such debate we can come to cultural and community understandings of why people create particular addons, scripts, missions and articles or guides; and it is one of the ways via that process that those who create within the community gain ideas for new concepts.

We then come back to the core of the subject and the questions that Dslyecxi's original article triggered:

1) Can real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures be applied to ArmA?

2) Should real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures be applied to ArmA?

3) Where can real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures be applied to ArmA?

4) How can real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures be applied to ArmA?

5) How must we alter real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for ArmA?

6) Is any game an appropriate place for real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures?

7 Do real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures enhance game play in ArmA?

8) How can use real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures be used to enhance game play in ArmA?

9) Can the traditional CTF form be improved by real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures in ArmA?

10 What new forms of gameplay can be created by applying real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures in ArmA?

Those are just some of the questions that Dslyecxi's original article have triggered.

We then can come to some ideas on what additional things to include in scenarios many of those who have read Dslyecxi's original article have said it has triggered them to do new missions.

It is noticeable that ArmA, like OFP with CTI before it, is spawning totally new game forms, Evolution and Berzerk are just the latest forms to have sprung from the freedom to create that is ArmA.

Once again having such a lively debate on ArmA and such a good article as Dslyecxi's for the new US members of the ArmA community to participate in; is to the ArmA communities good.

We are discussing this after all in order to improve ArmA and to make more out of it thus making the game even more enjoyable.

Kind Regards walker

[chipper 0]

STICKY THIS!

[mattxr 9]

i dont get what all the arguing is about..

He gave us Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures and IMO when testing them they work.. so really thats the end of the story.. They work he says they work what more do people want, instead of question these why dont get ingame with some pals and test them out foryour self.

If you say using real tactics ingame is lame then dont use them simple as.. i just dont understand some people in these fourm

[4 IN 1 0]

LOL walker became a teacher!!

anyway try not to frame something useful or non-useful without even trying, you got to know if something works, it works, and no one (well atless me) would care even if it is 10 clowns wearing super shinney 7 colours camo BDU and clean the town without problem, as long as it finish the job

*OK kids! here is your a-bit-too-early summer holiday homework, go home and write me an essay of 50000 words based on Mr. Dslyecxi's articles, with these 10 points covered*

sorry cant hold that

[walker 0]

i just dont understand some people in these fourm  

Hi Matt Rochelle

But is it the last word on the subject, Dslyecxi's article is based in US Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures.

In Urban operations the The United States military term for urban warfare is MOUT, an abbreviation for Military Operations in Urban Terrain. It starts from a particular viewpoint and service experience; as does any military doctrine.

The British military term is FIBUA (Fighting in Built-Up Areas), although it has been called OBUA (Operations in Built-Up Areas) and, unofficially, FISH and CHIPS (Fighting in Someone's House and Causing Havoc in People's Streets) The latter is used to express the political hearts and minds consequences of urban warfare.

Clearly both are NATO allies but approaches are different. The same applies in ArmA. And we have seen the same in Iraq. And different regiments also approach the problem in different ways. 82nd versus 101st airborne methods in Iraq. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

Also what about the question: Can the traditional CTF form be improved by real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures in ArmA? I think they can, but there is an argument in an unlimited re-spawn world for Rambo tactics and pure camping both are valid CTF tactics that are proven to work, although they require canalization and removal of grenade based weapons.

Rambo technique is as has been mentioned a RW technique originated by the early SAS and LRDG in North Africa it is also when set up with god mode what the US did in the drive by into Baghdad on the day Saddam's statue was toppled.

CTF is a perfectly valid form of game play that came out of the old traditional CS style of play but can we advance it and bring in new forms to replace and update it to a modern game like ArmA. I still enjoy my mad half hour of hexenkessel before sitting down to a big PvP coop or Berzerk or before tackling hours of fun in Evolution or working on some of the things CoC are creating.

Dslyecxi's article :

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html

Is clearly a seminal work and a "must read" for all those new US players of ArmA in order for them to understand ArmA's culture and to make it easier for those who are transitioning to ArmA from older forms of game like BF and CS. Although there is nothing to stop them playing such forms in ArmA bit we want to encourage more people to play the more advanced forms of game that the freedom of ArmA allows.

Kind Regards walker

[celery 8]

CTF is a perfectly valid form of game play that came out of the old traditional CS style of play

CS style of play has nothing to do with flags and there is no respawn during rounds in that game either, so we can just as well drop Counter-Strike from the discussion. You can call it Unreal Tournament if you need to compare the game mode to something.

but can we advance it and bring in new forms to replace and update it to a modern game like ArmA.

What needs updating in the game mode and why does it need replacing? If you don't take the enemy's flag and bring it to your own, it's not CTF anymore, now is it? I still get the feeling that the only kind of CTF you have played are Hexen, Cluster and San Tomas which are jokes in comparison to league maps.

[walker 0]

Hi Celery

I have actually played the other CTF forms even in OFP and prefer the larger CTFs with with all weapons and vehicles such as Under the Hill and others like it but generally prefer C&H such as Berzerk. My real passion is for PvP coop where Dslyecxi's article :

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html

really applies

I am not really that interested in playing in a league as it takes too much time and does not really interest me.

If I want to play in a league I think it would be better for my fat belly if it was a Sunday pub football league PS and my girlfriend says I need to climb more on the roof at the climbing wall to get rid of that which is true enough.

Kind Regards walker

[mchide 0]

Dslyecxi,

Congrats... Lots of words and effort from you to us all...

TY  

[shoaibz 0]

Hi,

Very nice work indeed, can we have a PDF download version so I can print it out and make it a bed time read ?

Thankx

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

Great work Dslyecxi.

Question: any chance to get this formatted to a printable format?

One remark: real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures are more or less driven by western ethic, they don not deal and consider guerillia tactics and the general approach of terrorists. Once you analysed and understood how they think (ok, that might be the wrong word for that`s what`s going on between their ears) you can play their tactic (most of players behave in fact like terrorists at most maps with respawn since there is another life after death) and train the other team to deal with that.

[dslyecxi 23]

Great work Dslyecxi.

Question: any chance to get this formatted to a printable format?

There's a PDF version in the works, yep. Should be out in a week or so.

[celery 8]

Hi Celery

I have actually played the other CTF forms...

You didn't answer the question I asked you which was: "What needs updating in the game mode and why does it need replacing?"

[walker 0]

You didn't answer the question I asked you which was: "What needs updating in the game mode and why does it need replacing?"

Hi celery

I still play the odd game of space invaders for nostalgia's sake but games have advanced. CTF and DM are an old form in FPS from the days of doom, quake, unreal and CS. Like my game of space invaders it becomes old hat. One needs to stay current and not harp back to ancient forms of FPS play if one is to continue to attract game players.

ArmA is a more advanced game and new forms of game play are already taking over. People will still play traditional CTF same as they have five minutes playing space invaders. That said it is inevitable that CTF will either adapt or die out. The application of real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for ArmA to CTF may be one of the ways that CTF can continue.

The increased immersion resulting applying Dslyecxi's article:

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html

to CTF may be one way of maintaining interest in CTF beyond the mad half hour most people use hexenkessle for.

It is common complaint, one I think even you have raised, that CTF's often suffer from too much camping or ramboism some have pointed to the lack of communication and cooperation being the cause.

I would say that that is the result of players who come on to a clan server or a public server camped by a clan, finding that the clan are communicating and working as a team thus getting lots of kills. On a few occasions I set up a plan for the public team I joined and got 4 or 5 players to agree to it and we gave the clan such a bloody nose they accused us of cheating.

Having a standard set of real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures (TTP) gives the majority of players who come in for a mad half hour a ready made plan to follow to beat such a clan.

If public teams are regularly beating semi profesional league clans like that surely it argues applying a TTP is a better form for CTF.

As Field Marshal Bernard Law Montgomery, 1st Viscount Montgomery of Alamein, was fond of saying The plan is the thing.

Kind Regards walker

[zen2k 0]

Speaking of attitude, you are as if you are the author on the matter. You spent a lot of time writing that guide but forgive me if this comes as a surprise, many of your tips work only on a theoretical level.

I'm making a guess here and say that you are mostly a coop player. That's fine, but you shouldn't exclude CTF, C&H or other PvP modes from this discussion as irrelevant just because human opponents don't do what you want them to do.

I believe he is is the author on the matter

But, anyway, and this is just a suggestion, but, maybe, take a step back and say to yourself, 'hey, this guide isn't for me,' chill out, and stop pissing in people's cheerios? I dunno, maybe that's just me.

The guide's intended for people unfamiliar with the game and who have no experience with a more tactical shooter like ArmA. If you're some uber veteran milsim virtual incarnation of rambo then pat yourself on the back and call it a day, there's no need to grind an axe.

As a ShackTac'r I'm obviously biased, but when I want to play CTF/DM I prefer the arcade style of play. That's the Quake/UT/Enemy Territory style of games. It's not better or worse, just different, like the people who play them. What I've enjoyed most out of OFP are the giant cooperative combined arms maps we've played as a group, and, as we progress into this new game, we'll definitely be putting ArmA through its paces. There's not many games where you can get that, and that's what this guide was aimed at, not you and what you think is best.

If that's not your thing, then fair enough, but dsl's put a 'bit' of work into this and has done a lot for this community, whether you know it or not, for you to be saying the things you have.

I feel so dirty replying to the troll.

[celery 8]

I believe he is is the author on the matter

But, anyway, and this is just a suggestion, but, maybe, take a step back and say to yourself, 'hey, this guide isn't for me,' chill out, and stop pissing in people's cheerios? I dunno, maybe that's just me.

The guide's intended for people unfamiliar with the game and who have no experience with a more tactical shooter like ArmA. If you're some uber veteran milsim virtual incarnation of rambo then pat yourself on the back and call it a day, there's no need to grind an axe.

As a ShackTac'r I'm obviously biased, but when I want to play CTF/DM I prefer the arcade style of play. That's the Quake/UT/Enemy Territory style of games. It's not better or worse, just different, like the people who play them. What I've enjoyed most out of OFP are the giant cooperative combined arms maps we've played as a group, and, as we progress into this new game, we'll definitely be putting ArmA through its paces. There's not many games where you can get that, and that's what this guide was aimed at, not you and what you think is best.

If that's not your thing, then fair enough, but dsl's put a 'bit' of work into this and has done a lot for this community, whether you know it or not, for you to be saying the things you have.

I feel so dirty replying to the troll.

What's the goal of your post? I stated an opinion based on my experience about real life tactics two posts prior to that (no mention of ultrarealism or tactic guides) and then I get snide remarks about my gameplay preferences and attitude by the maker of a tactic guide. Please think before posting unneeded inflammatory text in the future, thank you.

[Gaizokubanou 0]

I still play the odd game of space invaders for nostalgia's sake but games have advanced. CTF and DM are an old form in FPS from the days of doom, quake, unreal and CS. Like my game of space invaders it becomes old hat. One needs to stay current and not harp back to ancient forms of FPS play if one is to continue to attract game players.

ArmA is a more advanced game and new forms of game play are already taking over. People will still play traditional CTF same as they have five minutes playing space invaders. That said it is inevitable that CTF will either adapt or die out.

I agree with some fundamentals, such as game modes evolving and whatnot, but disagree on the appliances of such fundamentals.

ArmA or other kinds of "sim" like methods are not the only way in which a FPS genres such as CTF can evolve their gameplay.  Abstract is not acient form.  As long as arcadish shooters such as Unreal series brings new kind of weapons, different map interactions and better map designs into the play, it would have done a ton to improve upon the gametype such as CTF.

It is perfectly feasible to think of future games being played out in a "gamey" way while still being very advanced in gameplay.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

DOH! Gents you try to compete with me in bad behavior or what?

I guess the intention of Dslyecxi to provide a guide how to behave in ArmA as in real life and maybe benefit from that in gameplay.

So maybe someone else will describe other tactics - like mine: use Mi17 as a bomb. Incredible successful, but a little bit material intensive.

[walker 0]

Hi INNOCENT&CLUELESS

The application of chopper bombing is direct from the Real World Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures (TTP) for Asymmetric Warfare Manual.

Essentially you are practicing what was done in 9/11 or by the Japanese kamikaze or by the suicide bomber.

The history of this particular tactic of asymmetric warfare is very long You can trace it back through people like the Prussian soldier Karl Klinke on 18 April 1864 at the Battle of Dybbøl, when he blew a hole in a Danish fortification. In Napoleonic war the British had something called the "Forlorn Hope". Suicidal attacks are a very old real world TTP it goes back to at least biblical times with Samson taking down the temple with the Philistines in it.

Kind Regards walker

[celery 8]

I can go out there to the virtual battlefield with a machine gun and charge in the open desert firing full automatic against three enemy squads and a tank and call it a real life tactic because someone was stupid enough to do it before.

[4 IN 1 0]

I can go out there to the virtual battlefield with a machine gun and charge in the open desert firing full automatic against three enemy squads and a tank and call it a real life tactic because someone was stupid enough to do it before.

not to be offend, but this kind of statment needs reference to support

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

Right walker, this part yes.

But it is not asymmetric since a Mi17 is not that low tech, it is a kind of triple use:

- drop your mates over the hot area

- use FFAR where appropriate

- drop your copter onto a high value target

So I guess just suicide tactic applies here...

[txalin 2]

Dslyexci, i sent you a pm regarding the translation a few days ago, any news?

We are just waiting for you answer to start....

[celery 8]

Right walker, this part yes.

But it is not asymmetric since a Mi17 is not that low tech, it is a kind of triple use:

- drop your mates over the hot area

- use FFAR where appropriate

- drop your copter onto a high value target

So I guess just suicide tactic applies here...

And nobody in the sane world would use an expensive helicopter to crash it someplace. With luck it might take out one tank at most with a direct hit and there goes your trained pilot (who you can't order to make a suicide run) and 10 million dollars worth of chopper plus all the equipment it's carrying. In a game it's effective but in real life it would be idiotic gambling.

I can go out there to the virtual battlefield with a machine gun and charge in the open desert firing full automatic against three enemy squads and a tank and call it a real life tactic because someone was stupid enough to do it before.

This was an admittedly exaggerated statement to point out the stuff above. Almost every kind of stupid thing has been done at some point, but I don't consider it a real life TTP unless it actually works and is in use because of that. The goal of western tactics is to inflict damage to the enemy with minimal losses to own forces and that is not shown in the average game of Armed Assault (as players have developed better ways). I have yet to see an ultrarealistic map where all the ranger and SWAT tactics work, anyone want to point me someplace to get them?

And this is written assuming that we are talking about western TTP without wiseguy comments about the nuts who want everyone to ride the suicide express to heaven.