Some ?s before I buy ArmA in U.S....

[Kyle_K_ski 1]

Hello All,

With the release of ArmA in the U.S. being so close, I'm looking for some feedback before I consider buying the title. I've been a long time OFP fan, but our money situation is pretty slim right now, so I'm not just going to run out and buy it because of its relationship with a game I know and love.

I have some concerns after reading a number of player posted reviews and comments, so I'm hoping that some of my questions can be answered here to assist me in making my decision. Since I'm stuck with a dialup connection, the majority of my questions are related to the AI's performance.

(1) Does the AI effectively lean around cover?

(2) Is the AI capable of effective close quarter combat?

(3) Do they take advantage of enterable structures during a battle?

(4) Can the AI strafe? Please note that I am not hoping for "Counter Strike" or "Half-Life" type strafing tactics, but something that is realistic. In OFP the AI could never strafe so they were stuck doing their stupid "slow pivot on heels" maneuver before they could bring their gun to bear on their target, when it would've been much quicker and much more believable for them to strafe just a teeny tiny bit to take out an enemy in a more reasonable and sane fashion.

(5) Do the AI scan their environments more thoroughly than in OFP?

(6) Do the AI wisely use smoke grenades?

(7) Do they use suppressing fire, and suffer from its effects when directed towards them?

(8) Does aiming down one's sights "disorient" the player? I found that OFP's greatest drawback was how easy it was to lose one's target when the weapon's sights were brought up to the eyes, especially in close quarters battle situations.

(9) How does the AI compare to OFP's when the revolutionary SLX mod is being used? SLX elevated OFP in a major way to me in regards to the AI, and in creating a believable combat environment where AI is trying to rescue downed comrades. How does ArmA compare?

As one can see, my concern is not so much on graphics, as gameplay is much more important to me.

I'll be looking forward to your replies!

Kyle

April 15, 2007

[Second 0]

I see that you have been keeping close eye on these formuns

That's long list but i think that most of it can be fulfilled with "negative"-reply at the moment.

[messiahua 0]

That's long list but i think that most of it can be fulfilled with "negative"-reply at the moment.

Oh yeah:

1) No

2) No

3) Maybe?

4) No

5) Maybe?

6) No

7) No

8) Maybe, but I think this is a problem only if you have no visible crosshair.

9) Don't know. Didn't play with SLX.

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ](1) Does the AI effectively lean around cover?

No.

Quote[/b] ](2) Is the AI capable of effective close quarter combat?

They seem to be reasonably effective.

Quote[/b] ](3) Do they take advantage of enterable structures during a battle?

Sometimes by accident... sometimes by walking through walls...

Quote[/b] ](4) Can the AI strafe? Please note that I am not hoping for "Counter Strike" or "Half-Life" type strafing tactics, but something that is realistic. In OFP the AI could never strafe so they were stuck doing their stupid "slow pivot on heels" maneuver before they could bring their gun to bear on their target, when it would've been much quicker and much more believable for them to strafe just a teeny tiny bit to take out an enemy in a more reasonable and sane fashion.

I've never noticed..

Quote[/b] ](5) Do the AI scan their environments more thoroughly than in OFP?

They seem much more aware.

Quote[/b] ](6) Do the AI wisely use smoke grenades?

Never. They never use smoke grenades.

Quote[/b] ](7) Do they use suppressing fire, and suffer from its effects when directed towards them?

No. They do shoot at you if they think they know where you are, though, and they are not always correct.

Quote[/b] ](8) Does aiming down one's sights "disorient" the player? I found that OFP's greatest drawback was how easy it was to lose one's target when the weapon's sights were brought up to the eyes, especially in close quarters battle situations.

Sort of, but not as much. The zoom level changes quite a lot.

Quote[/b] ](9) How does the AI compare to OFP's when the revolutionary SLX mod is being used? SLX elevated OFP in a major way to me in regards to the AI, and in creating a believable combat environment where AI is trying to rescue downed comrades. How does ArmA compare?

ArmA compares to OFP, not 3rd party scripts. It compares favourably in that light. Its AI features are subtle, and there aren't any gameplay altering elements like dragging wounded soldiers around.

[sektor 2]

Put their reaction on high, and you are not going to last very long.

[MBot 0]

Unfortunatly it is pretty much 'no'. For me the gameplay of ArmA feels exactly like OFP. Some people consider that as a advantage, I feel otherwise. While OFP was revolutionary when it came out, it also was lacking in many aspects ( and I mean by design, not bugs ). While ArmA is is a overall good product, unfortunatly it has failed to improve where OFP was weak and instead improved where OFP was already good.

For me, ArmA is mostly about exploring the islands and expierience immersive missions ( like The Cause by Rejn ). This is realy great stuff. The combat is pretty one-dimensional and simple because of the AI.

[AWDrift 0]

No to pretty much everything. Not sure if they strafe though.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Since humans cannot straff in either ArmA or the real world I do not think AI can.

AI will enter any building, and move to a particular position you tell them too. You can also do this by waypoint and script.

7. They will do if you alter these values in your user profile

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">precisionFriendly=0.850000;

precisionEnemy=0.600000;

Kind Regards walker

[froggyluv 2130]

Hi Kyle, good to see another SLX-Head in here

While there are some positive improvements in AI, mostly the enemies ability to flank you, most of the questions you've asked are a soundly no. I was definitely hoping for AI lean/cover, and suppresion fire though the latter is already being worked on in mods. CQB seems pretty much the same and you won't find any of your shovels, knives, bayonets or rifle-butts a la' SLX. Wound system is generic and your pretty much dead when shot which leads to extremely brief firefights if your using your old OFP tactics. Youll need to shoot and move in this one as the AI are all crack shots and will find you quickly after you take a shot.

That being said ARMA is still great fun once you make adopt to its playing style. The sights are great as you can lower the gun even while in iron sight/zoom mode to reacquire your target. You'll feel both the weight of your gun and your body when moving around which took some getting used to but now I could never go back.

ALL in all, great fun despite some major blemishes.

[MBot 0]

Since humans cannot straff in either ArmA or the real world I do not think AI can.

I can

Regarding the suppression fire. It might be doable trough a mod, but as long as the AI wont react on it ( using cover ! ), it will only affect the player and be otherwise a cosmetic thing.

[INNOCENT&CLUELESS 0]

In WGL 5.1 LMG/MG gunners got a huge dispersion to some so-called high-dispersion magazines. If the gunners are equipped with those mags, they open up from long distance - as in reality - and also AI was taking cover since a lot of bullet impacts near by. Due to the high dispersion it was avoided that you got sniper-MGs

But it was always necessary to have a lot of ammo stored in supporting APCs and any other vehicles cause AI burned their ammo as long as they could find a target.

I recommend you try WGL 5.1 in OFP or the new OCE? if it ever sees the light to see what is possible.

[froggyluv 2130]

Dispersion values should be equated to rank/ and or skill setting and should be AI side only. Its hard enough for the player to hit his mark without random left/right deviation. Obviously since the computer always knows exactly where you are, dispersion makes sense to simulate human error.

[Second 0]

I just made small suppression script... When bullets fly near, guys hit ground, start for look cover, their skills (hand shaking and aiming accuracy) drops to bottom... Not hard infact.

When having more time, i could improve it... But i should be working on something else or GrimErazer is going to kill me

BIS should do something about that 'Take Cover'-thing... I don't know what is wrong with it, but guys act as they couln't deside is this better cover or that next one. Or then 'move' messes with 'take cover' and so for every ~second they try to move and seek for cover?. Any one else has better clues?

[Col. Faulkner 0]

I just made small suppression script... When bullets fly near, guys hit ground, start for look cover, their skills (hand shaking and aiming accuracy) drops to bottom...

From a "combat simulation" point of view, that alone is

probably one of the most interesting and salient things

ever posted on here. Please continue to develop and

release this!

[Jack-UK 0]

MadDogX has also released a supression script (see Mission Editing section) from the video he posted it seems that the AI will suppress YOU. Maybe you two could talk and try and combine your scripts to work both ways? it would be good to be able to supress AI and be supressed

At the moment the AI arent too smart at all. Yet somehow they will know you are behind them, 50 metres away.. and they turn around and kill you... they got rear view mirrors or something?

[NeMeSiS 11]

At the moment the AI arent too smart at all. Yet somehow they will know you are behind them, 50 metres away.. and they turn around and kill you... they got rear view mirrors or something?

Do we have to go trough that discussion again? They are NOT psychic, its either because you made noise and the AI can hear too good, or some groupmember of him spotted you and reported it to his group.

If you want to prove it try it out in the editor and film it.

[Daniel 0]

When the term "strafe" is used, I don't believe the author means Quake style running at full pelt, 90 degrees to the target.    

"Strafing" as in the way human players can side step around obstacles to engage targets would have been nice to see for the AI. I personally think they need a big overhaul to bring them up to standards in the way they move.

BIS should, in my opinion, spend a lot of time getting the AI to act believably rather than relying on super human reactions to balance AI with humans, once most of the bugs are out of the way.  

[Scrub 0]

MadDogX has also released a supression script (see Mission Editing section) from the video he posted it seems that the AI will suppress YOU. Maybe you two could talk and try and combine your scripts to work both ways? it would be good to be able to supress AI and be supressed

At the moment the AI arent too smart at all. Yet somehow they will know you are behind them, 50 metres away.. and they turn around and kill you... they got rear view mirrors or something?

I think you stepped on a stick.

[Jack-UK 0]

lol yeah i must be walking on sticks.. and he was the last soldier in his group, prone facing the opposite direction... strafed out from behind a wall and he turns round and shoots at me. Im pretty sure i was far enough away to have been 'heard'.. :\

[NeMeSiS 11]

lol yeah i must be walking on sticks.. and he was the last soldier in his group, prone facing the opposite direction... strafed out from behind a wall and he turns round and shoots at me. Im pretty sure i was far enough away to have been 'heard'.. :\

In that case he might have already known your position.

It may be related to a bug in the knowsabout value, it doesnt drop down in steps like in OFP, instead it stays at the same value and goes down to 0 in 1 step after x time.

On the other hand maybe he was just engaging you. What else did you want? let him wait in the same position forever until you come there to shoot him in the back? If he was in the group you shot at then there is a very big chance that you were reported in the past by his groupmembers, and he just engaged you.

[MBot 0]

Daniel @ April 16 2007,18:55)]BIS should, in my opinion, spend a lot of time getting the AI to act believably rather than relying on super human reactions to balance AI with humans, once most of the bugs are out of the way.

I very much agree with that. The AI seems to be limited to a degree by their behavior and movement abilities. They don't use all the movement options that the game offers, they are inefficient in using these options ( robotic behavior ) which means they generally are slow in doing things, they suffer from the overall clumsy and unresponsive movement/control/animation system of the game ( the player does too ) and they suffer from the sloppy collision detection of the game ( respectivly they avoid getting close to objects ). All this doesn't help to display some of the nice AI features the game has, but rather gives the impression that the AI is generally quite dumb. The whole issue relates to some key game area and is therefore not easily fixed. The collision detection and clumsy movement for example. The other day I was moving trough a wall when I went prone out from a sprint. I have several times got stuck between two objects, got stuck and jittered when moving up a stair, could not turn around because my weapon stuck on a object etc. Trying to sidewalk ( strafe ) trough a small clearing of a wall is next to impossible because the gun keeps stuck. No wonder the AI tries to stay away from objects ( and potential cover ). When you walk along a house with AI following in close column formation, they actually follow you 2m displaced on the road. And they refuse to enter large parts of cities altogether, because they seem to be made out of large objects rather than terrain ( Paraiso and Ortego ). The rigid animation system keeps adding to this with difficulties to go prone where you want out of a run because it varies how many steps your character keeps running etc.

All this problems are rooted in core areas of the game and are therefor hard to fix in my opinion. Still I think it would be important because without a solid foundation it will be difficult to create a AI that not only is smart but also acts believable.

[dirtylarrygb 0]

Hello All,

With the release of ArmA in the U.S. being so close, I'm looking for some feedback before I consider buying the title. I've been a long time OFP fan, but our money situation is pretty slim right now, so I'm not just going to run out and buy it because of its relationship with a game I know and love.

I have some concerns after reading a number of player posted reviews and comments, so I'm hoping that some of my questions can be answered here to assist me in making my decision. Since I'm stuck with a dialup connection, the majority of my questions are related to the AI's performance.

(1) Does the AI effectively lean around cover?

(2) Is the AI capable of effective close quarter combat?

(3) Do they take advantage of enterable structures during a battle?

(4) Can the AI strafe? Please note that I am not hoping for "Counter Strike" or "Half-Life" type strafing tactics, but something that is realistic. In OFP the AI could never strafe so they were stuck doing their stupid "slow pivot on heels" maneuver before they could bring their gun to bear on their target, when it would've been much quicker and much more believable for them to strafe just a teeny tiny bit to take out an enemy in a more reasonable and sane fashion.

(5) Do the AI scan their environments more thoroughly than in OFP?

(6) Do the AI wisely use smoke grenades?

(7) Do they use suppressing fire, and suffer from its effects when directed towards them?

(8) Does aiming down one's sights "disorient" the player? I found that OFP's greatest drawback was how easy it was to lose one's target when the weapon's sights were brought up to the eyes, especially in close quarters battle situations.

(9) How does the AI compare to OFP's when the revolutionary SLX mod is being used? SLX elevated OFP in a major way to me in regards to the AI, and in creating a believable combat environment where AI is trying to rescue downed comrades. How does ArmA compare?

As one can see, my concern is not so much on graphics, as gameplay is much more important to me.

I'll be looking forward to your replies!

Kyle

April 15, 2007

Buy have fun with Sp its not perfect but as good as any other shooter out ehre, then come play multiplayer.

Arma is about the most fun multiplayer you can have right now.

[4 IN 1 0]

lol yeah i must be walking on sticks.. and he was the last soldier in his group, prone facing the opposite direction... strafed out from behind a wall and he turns round and shoots at me. Im pretty sure i was far enough away to have been 'heard'.. :\

In that case he might have already known your position.

It may be related to a bug in the knowsabout value, it doesnt drop down in steps like in OFP, instead it stays at the same value and goes down to 0 in 1 step after x time.

On the other hand maybe he was just engaging you. What else did you want? let him wait in the same position forever until you come there to shoot him in the back? If he was in the group you shot at then there is a very big chance that you were reported in the past by his groupmembers, and he just engaged you.

yeah knowsabout value, would it be more realistic to have it drop as a curves like this?

didnt worth to start another topic, nor that ontopic but.....

[NeMeSiS 11]

lol yeah i must be walking on sticks.. and he was the last soldier in his group, prone facing the opposite direction... strafed out from behind a wall and he turns round and shoots at me. Im pretty sure i was far enough away to have been 'heard'.. :\

In that case he might have already known your position.

It may be related to a bug in the knowsabout value, it doesnt drop down in steps like in OFP, instead it stays at the same value and goes down to 0 in 1 step after x time.

On the other hand maybe he was just engaging you. What else did you want? let him wait in the same position forever until you come there to shoot him in the back? If he was in the group you shot at then there is a very big chance that you were reported in the past by his groupmembers, and he just engaged you.

yeah knowsabout value, would it be more realistic to have it drop as a curves like this?

[Big Dawg KS 6]

(2) Is the AI capable of effective close quarter combat?

Compared to OFP, this is definately a major improvement. Their reaction time in close quarters is excellent, if you run into one without your rifle up you probably won't live.