ARMA needs squad system

[big 0]

Even with a proper WOIP working u wont be able to get complete teamwork on public servers (no matter coop or tvt).

In those servers there will be people who are:

- new to the game so they don't know how to use it

- from Germany, Italy, France, Spain, UK and other countries speaking English, ...

- just fooling around ---> need and admin to kick/ban them.

- more things

To get that working u need time to coordinate all and most of people just wanna connect/play/have fun and all instantaneously. Most of those guys don't wanna wait 10 minutes between game and game.

So my point is that u can have all u want but at the end is a matter of finding the right people to play with. It happens on all games and will always be like that.

U say that for coop works, but its the same, if people who joins a server doesn't want to cooperate it doesn't matter if u set orders, ... it wont work cause its up to the decision of those players.

As i said before, in our server (while we play, we cant control it and don't think many people uses it when we are not there) if someone joins and starts working on his own we kick him. In the other way people who likes to play the same way of us, uses to come back for more games. It will take time to get a base of good people on our server who likes to play as we do.

What they cant do is join someone's server and ask to play the way they want, for that create their own server and do it.

Shifty, that was what i meant when u said that people played on servers where the missions sucked, there is a topic from Tom Anger (also at armaholic):

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=60855

And unfortunately he doesn't get so much feedback but for ur team and few others. If i played TvT i would be trying to help him to develop something that fits my needs and tastes (I'm sure he is a really good mission maker cause he likes it and works hard).

I would say that most of people who plays online just wanna have fun directly, and then there are people like u and ur team, among other teams and players, and like us, talking about coop, who like to play more "seriously".

Do u think we at *El nino* (coop side) started easily and quickly?

No way, at the beginning there were 2 guys, then few months later i joined and few months later another one, and so on.

In the meantime there were lots of players on our GR server but most of them didn't like to play the same way we did and most of those who liked were from other "coop clans".

It takes time to find the people who likes to play the same way than u.

So summing it all up its up to people, if they want, they will play the way u and others like, but u cant force them to do it.

PS: also playing with respawns will be more difficult to play using teamwork cause people tends to take care only when they are "using" their last life.

[Gecko-KOSB- 0]

The JO Reality project came to an end because they  just couldnt squeze any more  in the way of reality out of the JO engine. It was another team that did the BF2  reality project.

Bezerk maps, well,  they have potential, but the vehicle spawn in the ones we have makes for a sort of  Chinese wave assault with vehicles. Untill thats sorted ( in jo, server switch  Vehiclespawn=0 ) they have little practical use to us except frustration.

The funny thing is, the JO engine had potential, but Nova went down the wrong road, and basically sold their souls to gun toting rambo players, this is when my tenour with JO ended...although i came back for a blast due to the Reality Mod, but as you say, there was only so much they could do with the engine itself.

Regarding the BErzerk maps, it should be quite simple to disable or even delete the vehicle respawn ability.

[Rambo-16AAB 0]

Tom Anger & 16AAB go way back, pre dating the Joint ops reality project in fact when we used vanila Joint Ops and the best reality settings we could squeeze out of the vanilla server options & his maps.

If BIS could implement a mode like the RTS mod mode, into the retail game that could be used by someone who wants to play commander & chief for their side by selecting a commanders screen mode of some description. ( over ridable by an admin incase you get a complete numpty in charge ) It would make commanding a large force a lot easier.

[Rambo-16AAB 0]

Quote[/b] ]sold their souls to gun toting rambo players

OI! do you mind !

[=jps=sgtrock 4]

Every thread that I've seen that mentions the Berserk maps comes across as very positive. Personally, I've never had a good round playing one. No squad assignments, no cooperation, no teamwork at all. How on earth do you find good games?

[sirex 0]

Every thread that I've seen that mentions the Berserk maps comes across as very positive. Personally, I've never had a good round playing one. No squad assignments, no cooperation, no teamwork at all. How on earth do you find good games?

clan mates.

[Rambo-16AAB 0]

The Majority of our squad dont, but we do recognise the maps possibillities with a few minor alterations.

good points:-

1:- The loadout & combined spawn selector screen he has.

2:- good working capturable spawn areas.

3:- Functional dead body removal

4:- No AI

5;- its not another bloody CoOp

Bad points:-

1:- instant vehicle respawn

2:- No squads, everyones an individual

The Vehicle spawn issue allone turns a good map into a Vanila BF2/Joint ops clone with every man and his dog hanging arround to nick the next bit of equipment to respawn. If map makers are going to include Spawns of any kind ( men or gear ) they should atleast tell hosts how and where to adjust the length of the spawn time to suit their server ( since there is no server side controll available )

The No squads issue can be worked arround if everyones using coms etc so its not quite as cruicial.

[sirex 0]

its not instant spawn. there's a 5 minute delay on tank/jeep/chopper respawns.

i hate no-respawn games, but i do think the timer is too low on berserk servers (my one gripe) i think the round timer should be 4 hours, tank/jeep respawn of 15 mins and player respawn of 2 mins.

just my 2c on it though.

edit: yeah, lack of squads does suck, but at least you can see people's names on the map.

[Dwarden 1125]

so if i get it right ? ...

You want simple light multisquad system with easy to use GUI

sorta like now but smaller, easier to read and use and so on

[Heatseeker 0]

The Majority of our squad dont, but we do recognise the maps possibillities with a few minor alterations.

good points:-

1:- The loadout & combined spawn selector screen he has.

2:- good working capturable spawn areas.

3:- Functional dead body removal

4:- No AI

5;- its not another bloody CoOp

Bad points:-

1:- instant vehicle respawn

2:- No squads, everyones an individual

The Vehicle spawn issue allone turns a good map into a Vanila BF2/Joint ops clone with every man and his dog hanging arround to nick the next bit of equipment to respawn. If map makers are going to include Spawns of any kind ( men or gear ) they should atleast tell hosts how and where to adjust the length of the spawn time to suit their server ( since there is no server side controll available )

The No squads issue can be worked arround if everyones using coms etc so its not quite as cruicial.

I personally see these as bad points:

1:- good working capturable spawn areas.

Capturable spawn areas... why?

2:- instant vehicle respawn

I agree.

3:- No squads, everyones an individual.

This one is enough to make me disregard a map. Also a good reason for people to say there is no squad system in Arma. This option actually encourages players to play on their own, DM style.

[sirex 0]

so if i get it right ? ...

You want simple light multisquad system with easy to use GUI

sorta like now but smaller, easier to read and use and so on

i think the overall idea (and my opinion is in play here) is to pull that away from the mission designer, so by default there is a squad system in armed assault which will be functional enough for most maps not to alter it, but also flexible enough for map designers to replce it if required.

btw with regards to capturable spawn areas: its important because it draws action together so you get better games with less people. it has pros and cons, so its not the be-all end-all.

[Rambo-16AAB 0]

The capturable spawns are only realy relevent to some game types I admit, but The availabillity of a good script for that is a good thing, if hed release it as a stand alone script for mission makers. Try CTI with only one spawn for each side, ever. Players wouldnt play it due to taking 3/4 an hour to reach the battle lines. the logistics required would be beyond the menatality of most normal players ( note I said "most" not All ).

Overall though I still think that having a server host being dictated to by a map maker on what features his/her server can or cant have isnt realy a good thing on the most part. Life would be a lot easier if the server controlled quite a number of the features, or for the sake of argument, the server could over ride a map makers settings, if they so wished to do so ( vehicle spawn, player spawn, spawn times, number of players etc )

[SBSDelta 0]

Quote[/b] ] add a point system which includes ASSIST points --> bf2 and jointops are evidence enough that this will encourage teamplay.

That system in my opinion of BF2 was one of the main reasons there were so many dickheads and point farmers.

Join a clan's TS during a clan match and listen to the control and coordination as they work as a team , the squad system works excellently in this scenario, you just will not find it on public servers, because of the random players, maybe a few from one particular clan are on TS and will control a certain area but the majority of the players are operating o thier own with no other coordination other than what can be typed into the side channel , whereby the recently killed can give a rough location of the enemy.But a point system will be a backward step in my opinion. Also ArmA is not BF2 and will not benefit from this system as a means of encouraging teamplay it will lead to points farming, chuck in weapon unlocks as well , and you will see,' cool i only need 200 more points and i can get the M24 .Thanks but no thanks, BF2 was for me probably the worst fps i ever played for that reason alone, the effects were ok but it was an arcade game not a sim, there is a massive difference and the implementation of point would be unworkable, i dont wish to sound hostile in this reply, but the only team/squadwork you will hear is on ts with an organised unit be it in a co-op or multiplayer in a clanwar.

[Talbot 0]

I have played a couple of MP games and they were just pointless. Everyone is a rambo and you have the usual w*nkers sitting in a bush for the entire round popping players off.

I want to play on TS with a team but I don't want to have to join clan or something like that. They all take it so damn seriously, it's boring, this is a game, nothing more. Just wanna have coordinated game play because without it ARMA MP is dead boring, unless you like Vehicles, which bore me to death.

[mchide 0]

I have played a couple of MP games and they were just pointless. Everyone is a rambo and you have the usual w*nkers sitting in a bush for the entire round popping players off.

I want to play on TS with a team but I don't want to have to join clan or something like that. They all take it so damn seriously, it's boring, this is a game, nothing more. Just wanna have coordinated game play because without it ARMA MP is dead boring, unless you like Vehicles, which bore me to death.

You say that you want to play on TS and with sqad, not like rambo. But as a reall team member.

Now tell me. How will you acive that if teammates will not be coordinated and serious?

[Zisme 0]

I find this to be lacking in MP too....I played JO for along time and even with random people you would get team work..this is becaue the hold(AAS) maps where linear in the order you had to attack them..this alos made for the most intense online fire fights i have ever played in (think 100 plus players fighting over the smae spot) not random like this or BF2. BF2 does have a good squad system. It is not fully taken advantage of by random players....but the option to use it is nice to have and when used right is very effective.

[sirex 0]

thats one thing that project reality adds for bf2 (the capping flags in a certain order) -- its nice, im not sure if it'd work for ArmA or not. one thing i like in arma is the ability to plan an attack on a flag, without "bah the next flag is the target now, i moved 50km in this tank for nothing".

teamplay can happen, and i've noticed its getting better every week actually. -- sure, when the americans get the game itll go down the drain agiain (due to new players, not the country) - but it'll be good again after a few months. This is where the fun begins.

if you find a good server or meet good players put em on your buddy list (there's a thread on this forum about that system that someone made), its awesome) and try to stick together.

...And if you get a muppet (teamkiller etc etc). go hunt down the admin and get their ass kick/banned. you might just save a good teamplayer from giving up with the game and putting on their shelf.

[mahuja 12]

It's not impossible to operate as a squad even while none of the players are grouped, as in the berzerk (bf2-arma, as i call them) maps.

It takes a discipled set of players to go together and stick together, but when they do, it helps. That said, one could make a script for "join this players group", as in "let him be your leader" - but mister, how many of the "pubbers" do you expect to actually use that option?

Even in BF2, where there were incentives to grouping up, rarely was as much as half of the players on public servers in a squad. (BF2142 is supposed to add further incentives, can anyone tell me how well that worked? I'm not hopeful.)

USM has on earlier occasions held public trainings, in which anyone could enter, learn how to do some basic teamwork, and the advantages of doing so. One excellent example being that with fire sectors, you don't have as much area to scan for enemies, and can therefore see them quicker when they do appear, or not get shot in the back as often.

These people easily leave the "pubber-hood" - some sign up, others leave with a bit more teamwork orientation. And of course, some people just never learn.

Doing that for a while will have a positive effect for everyone. Except those few you just can't make care about it.

usmsquad.com

[=jps=sgtrock 4]

I have played a couple of MP games and they were just pointless. Everyone is a rambo and you have the usual w*nkers sitting in a bush for the entire round popping players off.

I want to play on TS with a team but I don't want to have to join clan or something like that. They all take it so damn seriously, it's boring, this is a game, nothing more. Just wanna have coordinated game play because without it ARMA MP is dead boring, unless you like Vehicles, which bore me to death.

You say that you want to play on TS and with sqad, not like rambo. But as a reall team member.

Now tell me. How will you acive that if teammates will not be coordinated and serious?

It's easy. Just don't play with people who take themselves too seriously.

Hey, it works. I was on a squad that held the top of a 100+ clan ladder for over a year. We did it through fantastic talent combined with some of the best team play that I've ever experienced. We never took ourselves too seriously, though. It kept us loose, which definitely helped us deal with tough games without cracking.

[Shifty-16AAB- 0]

PLZ, BIS...DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NONEXISTANT SQUAD FEATURES IN ARMA!!!!!

[max power 21]

That evolution mod is pretty cool. You can have AI in yoru squad or even players depending on your rank.

[thready 0]

We at MTD (mission design team) have built a script that can be used in any mission, it gives the squad members the ability to spawn at the squad leader in a similar manner to bf2. The squad member can move to a tent at base and then spawn at thier squad leader. We have found that it helps keep the squad together increasing close teamwork. U can spawn into vehicles. It keeps the squad flowing becouse members are not travelling from base to action after every kill.

U find that the squad leader has to work alot harder to keep himself alive, and his squad has to work hard at protecting themselves as well as him.

Its very easy to implement, it works with reapons respawn. It gives the dead player the option to spawn on the squad or do what ever he/she wants to as normal in Arma after base spawn.

It can be found here

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=61199

give it ago and feel free to use it as u wish in missions.

[sirex 0]

i got to be honest, spawning on the squad leader was my least favorite element in bf2. -- maybe if you air drop in within 500 meters by parachute it would be a bit better, but the appearing poof next to the SL really wound me up when your trying to defend a point and there's just more and more guys respawning on a hidden sl

[whisper 0]

PLZ, BIS...DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NONEXISTANT SQUAD FEATURES IN ARMA!!!!!

This is my next developpement axis See "NEW GAMETYPE" post in this forum