RPG, 2 ("sort of") questions...

[Tanaka_ 0]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and to ArmA, been a long time OFP player though...

Over the last week a few doubts have spawn into my mind regarding AT weapons in this game.

I've used the search function of the forum and a few old topics regarding this matter did come up, but none answered clearly to my questions.

Without going into old beaten horses such reloading times and armor damage model (no doubt the place where the game engine is in a more dire need of a revamp), could someone please answer this two questions, thanks in advance

1) Why does the RPG7 has a so "archaic" sight? Why it isn't equal to the one OFP had? At least since the 60's the RPG7 has sights at its disposal that help the soldier make the calculations regarding gravity and movement of the target... is this the 100$ Iranian version of the weapon ? If so, why does the “rebel†Russians have it?

2) Maybe it is my impression, but it has happen to me quite a few times in MP... a direct hit of a RPG7 grenade on a soldier (i.e. the grenade hits the soldier or the grand just where he is standing at a respectable angle of impact) does nothing to him, indeed, has a return I receive 2 perfect assault rifle aimed shots

Now coming to my mind, is that also, when I fire a grenade projectile (a PG) into a sandbag that has a soldier prone behind, the sandbag evaporates but the soldier just stays there has if nothing ever happened.

Regards,

[bazooka_boy 0]

Certainly for your point number 2 it will depend on the ammo you use.  There is an anti armour round VR and an anti personnel round V.  V is a fragmentation round, but VR is like a shaped charge designed to penetrate armour not flesh.

I would guess that it would still really injure if not kill someone but there is a limited to what effects you can model.  Use the right round and you should see better results.  For more details on the round types check out the wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RPG-7

[memnoch 0]

I saw a program on Discovery about the shaped charge and how it works. They even tested a homebrew one on some metal plates so I would imaging when that jet of hot copper shoots out, if it hit you in the chest and the explosives didn't get you somewhow that jet of metal would give a new definition to open heart surgery. If it hit the ground near you, maybe it wouldn't be so dangerous?

[Tanaka_ 0]

OK thanks, it’s a game limitation then...

Hmm...the thing is that, in game (as I suppose many have experienced), when a VR round hits an armored vehicle, most of the times it doesn't kill its occupants. So it is kind of ridicule when I hit a 2nd round and a soldier laying on the ground very close to the vehicle can fire back perfectly aimed shots when that metal near him should be nearing melting point...

It is one of the things I’m trying to workaround in game, how to counter that horrible and unreal effect of the tank crew turning in a formidable fighting infantry squad in 4 seconds after the armored vehicle has turned into a “baked turkeyâ€.

The only way I found so far is to be well hidden when firing, wish is hard since it is a jet propelled projectile and most of times the targets are moving…

As for point 1 of my original post; anyone?

[l mandrake 9]

Re point 1: for some reason the rpg in ARMA flies in a perfectly straight trajectory forever (unlike the M136 which follows gravity) - so you dont need a better sight right now!

[Maddmatt 1]

Re point 1: for some reason the rpg in ARMA flies in a perfectly straight trajectory forever (unlike the M136 which follows gravity) - so you dont need a better sight right now!

In my experience it drops over distance, it definitely doesn't fly in a straight line .

[TiGGa 0]

Re point 1: for some reason the rpg in ARMA flies in a perfectly straight trajectory forever (unlike the M136 which follows gravity) - so you dont need a better sight right now!

In my experience it drops over distance, it definitely doesn't fly in a straight line .

Yap, you will notice that when fighting against targets at 500m+. You will have to aim a few mm above the target for a hit.

[opteryx 1562]

I saw a program on Discovery about the shaped charge and how it works.

Probably

one.

[Tanaka_ 0]

Quote[/b] ]Re point 1: for some reason the rpg in ARMA flies in a perfectly straight trajectory forever (unlike the M136 which follows gravity) - so you dont need a better sight right now!

I didn't spoke about the LAW because I'm not that familiar with the weapon, but yes, the situation regarding point one is even more "serious" with the M136 then with RPG7...

The sight is so small that is very hard to make a good "leading" on the target when it is moving at high angular speeds related to the attacker.

Without going into the reality of the gravity effects in game, I can handle (as all of us) well with its effects (within 300m), my problem is with the leading... I miss the reference points in the sight, and with the LAW, I can't even see the target

[Big Dawg KS 6]

OK thanks, it’s a game limitation then...

Who said so? No limitation, just very small indirectHit values. BIS already said they're increasing them in the next patch. A direct hit definately should kill them, direct hit meaning the projectile actually hits the unit's body, because if an RPG does no damage to infantry with a direct hit I don't see how it could possibly damage armored vehicles. It only has 1 direct hit value and infantry has much smaller armor values than any vehicles. But you said the RPGs definately destroy vehicles, that means the infantry thing is probably a hit detection bug, coincidentally, we know such a bug was introduced with v1.05, something about bad hit detection for hits to infantry in the head. If they're related, BIS already fixed that bug for the next patch anyway.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Be thankful they didn't correctly model the real life RPG-7 iron sight.    

It's more or less identical to the Kalashnikov rifle sight (a post in a notch),

and therefore would be even more "challenging" than the current in-game

sight to use to lead a moving target with.

I suppose the sight in game is as it is to allow you to "hold over" a

target to compensate for the way the grenade drops as it flies in

the game (the real RPG-7 iron sight is adjustable for range, of course)

I'm hoping someone will make a mod that includes a properly-calibrated

optical sight unit for the RPG-7 (I stress"properly-calibrated").

The shaped charge warhead has a lethal blast radius of about 4 metres

in real life, with lethal frags able to fly up to 150m.Modelling a "blast radius"

of 4m in game would be a basic config editing job I think.

[max power 21]

What version are you using, Tanaka? This (rpgs not killing infantry) was a problem in the original release but they have since been tuned to have some blast area.

Shaped charges do explode in such a way as to make a jet of copper like everyone likes to talk about, but the blast still goes outwards in all directions. Given that they make antitank warheads as powerful as possible, I'm sure that one detonating between your legs (or nearby) would be quite lethal... what with the blast and fragments...

[Tanaka_ 0]

I'm hoping someone will make a mod that includes a properly-calibrated

optical sight unit for the RPG-7 (I stress"properly-calibrated").

I see you have the same "manual" I have... we never know when we might need to fire a RPG nowadays

Yes, that was the sight I expected, at least when the weapon was on shoulders of the "pseudo" Russian troops

plaintiff1

I'm using 1.05...

Maybe it is my bad... but going by KyleSarnik post, the things should be improved in 1.06

[max power 21]

I wonder in reality if the grenade would detonate if it hit a person. I would be inclined to think it would just pass through, probably sustaining a bunch of damage to the fins as they hit the poor guy... but hitting a guy in the chest with an rpg, having it explode.. and when the smoke clears he stretches his neck and smiles knowingly at you... that must have been slightly unnerving.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

I see you have the same "manual" I have... we never know when we might need to fire a RPG nowadays

That old RPG bulletin is freely available on-line. I hope when

someone mods the optical sight it will work properly. There

were some for OFP but the sights never worked correctly.

As well as interesting historical documents, official manuals

are excellent references for making authentic models for toy

soldiers (ArmA toy soldiers included). Most of the American

ones are online for free download and are easy to find. The

ones for my favourite army in my favourite post-war era are

not on-line (yet) so at least my private collection is still a

little bit "special".  

[Col. Faulkner 0]

I wonder in reality if the grenade would detonate if it hit a person.    I would be inclined to think it would just pass through, probably sustaining a bunch of damage to the fins as they hit the poor guy...

Several people in the real world have been hit by RPG

grenades and ended up with the live unexploded rocket

impaling them. This has also happened with 40mm launched

grenades.

These things do pack quite a punch though. In one incident

in the 1970s a police station in Northern Ireland was fired on

by the PIRA. One soldier was lying on a bunk when the RPG

rocket (fired from about 300 yards away) came through the

brick wall (unexploded) whooshed under his bunk and out the

wall on the other side again leaving two neat holes! I'm sure

there are similar examples from current conflicts.

[opteryx 1562]

I wonder in reality if the grenade would detonate if it hit a person.

I've seen a video of that, pretty much a smoke cloud with limbs flying out of it...

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

Well as you can immaged throughout the decades many little things have been refurbished and changed on the RPG7 and made it fit more to the situations it was used in.

I admit that the aiming system that can be seen on Faulkerns pic is new to me (same as in game) but the one I know is calibrated in 50 meter steps I guess, and you can chose the elevation.

As for the blast .... yeah thats one of numerous mistakes and bugs BIS has left us to fix. The range of explosion is ridiculous, even a handgrenade does 5-10 times the killradius of an RPG.

Some config value needs to be changed there. Although the PG7 is a heat warhead and thus leaves only a small whole on the target hit, it has a mature pre-explosion which significantly is stronger than what we see in ArmA.

My two cents

[memnoch 0]

I saw a program on Discovery about the shaped charge and how it works.

Probably

one.  

No. It was this old, white haired excentric guy and with him he had the inventor of the explosive, reactive armour. I think he is German. Anway, he had a model of a tank turrent and to this he strapped metal plates at an angle to effectively double the thickness of the armour. Inside this he hung a watermelon to simulate the crew. When he detonated the charge, set up on a platform a few feet away, whic looked identical to the RPG picture Col. Faulkner has posted BTW, the jet of metal sliced right through the plates, through the tank hull and the fruit and out the other side!! The hole the metal made was very narrow though and at one point the jet split in two.

They then tried the same test with reactive armour inbetween and it only manage to go through 6 of the 10 or so plates, completely saving the "crew" inside. Very interesting program that one.

[memnoch 0]

SOBR[1st-I-R] @ Mar. 23 2007,06:51)]Although the PG7 is a heat warhead and thus leaves only a small whole on the target hit, it has a mature pre-explosion which significantly is stronger than what we see in ArmA.

It may be a moot point I'd grant you but if an RPG round did hit someone, what do you think would kill them first: the pre-explosion/detonator or the shaped charge itself?

[Heatseeker 0]

Shouldnt the rpg and m136 have 3d sights too? When we use the rpg we are looking at a big chunk of hand (that shouldnt even be there) and the front sight.

[Sergei_Q 0]

1) Why does the RPG7 has a so "archaic" sight? Why it isn't equal to the one OFP had? At least since the 60's the RPG7 has sights at its disposal that help the soldier make the calculations regarding gravity and movement of the target... is this the 100$ Iranian version of the weapon ? If so, why does the “rebel†Russians have it?

Why do you think it's archaic? Most of real sights are adjustable "iron" sights, just like in the modern M136. They're less costly and more robust than any kind of optical sights (which can get dirty, broken or off target in field conditions). The thing with these weapons is that at longer ranges they become too inaccurate to be useful for 'sniping', so there is no benefit for optical sights.

The problem in the game is that you can't adjust the sights, so instead you will have to make adjustments based on gut feeling when fighting at longer ranges. Likewise you can't adjust rifle sights for longer range firing.

[Tanaka_ 0]

The problem in the game is that you <b>can't</b> adjust the sights, so instead you will have to make adjustments based on gut feeling when fighting at longer ranges. Likewise you can't adjust rifle sights for longer range firing.

Yes, one thing that crossed my mind once o got my hands in the game was: Who did the sight calibration of "my" rifle ?

Yes, it would be nice to have adjustable sights... perhaps in the next game engine

[crashdome 2]

Assuming, and this is a BIG assumption, that BIS calibrated the 3D model to a fixed point in the distance as accurately as possible (something which shouldn't be hard to do), is it possible you are experiencing the effects of wind, distance, and trajectory?

Alternatively, it would be nice to calibrate sights based on two axis (distance and wind correction). Would be an excellent feature to brag about to other game companies within the genre.

[max power 21]

For that you would need wind.