The Great ARMA Turkey Shoot

[5cent_at_NY 0]

ok, I know my english is crap as I couldn't make you understand. But what I mean "taking cover propery" is a terrain that where you hide when sniping. You guys know you should also check your six often during sniping, right?

Imho, How could you being "flanked" by those stupid AI? or you guys just sitting and waiting to be surrounded by them? and... do you think this is realistic combat?

[-Puma- 2]

..If they just would SHOOT back and not crouch, lie, turn, walk 100 meters, turn, crouch,cover teammate, shoot 1 perfect headshot....

[pathetic_berserker 4]

..If they just would SHOOT back and not crouch, lie, turn, walk 100 meters, turn, crouch,cover teammate, shoot 1 perfect headshot....

LOL how true, also painfull when you kill the first guy and the second falls to the ground and snaps a 200m head shot. Not to say its impossible but I think a bit too frequent still. But this is diverging

I think walker was right regarding the FSM tools.

I could be that that the tighter BIS script the AI to behave the less flexible it will become for mission makers. So the FSM may be the answer.

[urbanwarrior 0]

ok, I know my english is crap as I couldn't make you understand. But what I mean "taking cover propery" is a terrain that where you hide when sniping. You guys know you should also check your six often during sniping, right?

Imho, How could you being "flanked" by those stupid AI? or you guys just sitting and waiting to be surrounded by them? and... do you think this is realistic combat?

if i were a sniper and i was allready in position to shoot, i would not be moving at all, i wouldn't be getting up to check my 6 either. the problem arises when people fire shot after shot after shot and dont move, eventually after killing 5 or 6 guys the AI decides to flank you, your to busy looking down the scope to bother about looking behind you and your probably in the editor so you dont care anyway. allthough i do agree with the snap shots that manage to get you in the head from afar, the first thing i setup in the editor was an opfor squad across the bay from me(sniper) at corozon, a good 900yrds maybe more across the water, when i started firing, the went prone and when the eventually started firing they had killed me 1 shot to the head, everytime i tried it

[Radic 0]

I'm only playing the Demo version at this point (ie. not seeing the "upgraded" AI of patched full version) but my thoughts on for example the co-op mission is:

the business of that first squad on the hill just laying down and letting themselves be picked off seems to be because they go from "aware" mode to "danger" mode but they don't know AT ALL where you are - which is reasonable considering you're firing from distance and in cover - but what should be programmed in is that they should be given SOME understanding immediately of at least the rough direction - specified as a radial angle or "quadrant" - if not initally any idea of range - the fire is coming from - ie. so they'll take cover from your general quadrant but won't yet know exactly where you are - then maybe the angle of the quadrant could be reduced on each shot + some initially broad idea of range (ie. defined initially as within X maximum distance) from the second shot onward - so that after say 5 shots they know pretty precisely where your DIRECTION is - tho the range refinement should probably be kept fairly loose - ie. so that at that time they'll know pretty precisely your direction but the range will still be somewhere within a few hundred meter stretch along that bearing.

This would make the real life imperative of the sniper - ie. shoot, RELOCATE - very relevant to your behaviour/tactics in the game too. Even after that second shot the AI will start flanking the whole quadrant you're in - so the longer you stay put the greater the real risk becomes etc. And when you open fire from a different location the whole calculation process resets to initial values.

The initial broadness of the quadrant awareness could be set according to the type of cover and class of soldier - ie. sniper inside or right up against a dense bush at max range would get something like a 240 degree initial quadrant and take something like 16 shots to get it down to an exact bearing and a range within a couple hundred meters - vs std soldier on a slope with just grass at max range who would get a starting quadrant of maybe 70 degrees and take only 3 shots to get it down to exact direction of fire and maybe within 50 meters of exact range. And as the firing range is lessened from max then those figures would be reduced + the reduction rate per shot increased - especially with regard to range location -

AND THEN:

AI response could be geared according to the two variables (ie. "quandrant" and "range") ie. defensive behaviour would be in direct response to the "quadrant" and offensive behaviour would respond to the range - ie. AI would be trying to maneouver out to the "range" zone they currently have whilst staying outside the threat "quadrant" angle (ie. staying actively under cover whilst inside the quadrant angle - so effectively they could only maneover closer to you once they'd moved laterally in cover to get outside the quadrant) - this would automatically create very clever AI behaviour because essentially it's exactly the way real people handle the situation.

In fact I think that AI response system could be used all thru the game with the initial values and then subsequent "deltas" (change values) being set according to situational, environmental and soldier class factoring - when I think about the possibilities I get the feeling that this AI control method would work just as well in a pitched street battle situation just as effectively as for the long range sniper type scenario - and of course everything in between.

[l mandrake 9]

Radic, please quit your day job immediately and begin scripting these AI improvements. Thank you

Mandrake

[Radic 0]

Sorry, I actually got a bit carried away there - went into auto-dribble mode a bit

[5cent_at_NY 0]

if i were a sniper and i was allready in position to shoot, i would not be moving at all, i wouldn't be getting up to check my 6 either. the problem arises when people fire shot after shot after shot and dont move, eventually after killing 5 or 6 guys the AI decides to flank you, your to busy looking down the scope to bother about looking behind you and your probably in the editor so you dont care anyway.

I won't move either while the enemy looks "don't know what's going on" state. but once they seems noticed where I am, start to "flanking maneuver" and if I missed to shoot them, I immediately retreat from the position and try to ambush them. then they comes to exactly where I am carelessly - so all I need to do is just pick them one by one. at least I won't give them a chance. probably this is unrealistic "tactics" (well, not much like that...), but most easiest and effective way. and that's the point that gives me frustrating.

Why the hell I could act like rambo in this "realistic combat sim"? and why the stupid tactics like that IS the most effective way against the AI? Is every real life combat a turkey shoot?

[robert(uk) 0]

ok, I know my english is crap as I couldn't make you understand. But what I mean "taking cover propery" is a terrain that where you hide when sniping. You guys know you should also check your six often during sniping, right?

Imho, How could you being "flanked" by those stupid AI? or you guys just sitting and waiting to be surrounded by them? and... do you think this is realistic combat?

I understand what you are saying, but I did have cover. I was behind some rocks on the Sieze the Base mission, so I also had teammates around to cover my 6. This AI machine-gunner was able to use the hill to my left as cover, or at least that's where I guess he came from, as we'd pretty much cleared all other areas of the map. Fair enough, I know I should have moved more frequently, but that's not the point of this discussion. Either way, I'm still impressed sometimes, and utterly amazed at how dumb AI can be other times...

[urbanwarrior 0]

if i were a sniper and i was allready in position to shoot, i would not be moving at all, i wouldn't be getting up to check my 6 either. the problem arises when people fire shot after shot after shot and dont move, eventually after killing 5 or 6 guys the AI decides to flank you, your to busy looking down the scope to bother about looking behind you and your probably in the editor so you dont care anyway.

I won't move either while the enemy looks "don't know what's going on" state. but once they seems noticed where I am, start to "flanking maneuver" and if I missed to shoot them, I immediately retreat from the position and try to ambush them. then they comes to exactly where I am carelessly - so all I need to do is just pick them one by one. at least I won't give them a chance. probably this is unrealistic "tactics" (well, not much like that...), but most easiest and effective way. and that's the point that gives me frustrating.

Why the hell I could act like rambo in this "realistic combat sim"? and why the stupid tactics like that IS the most effective way against the AI? Is every real life combat a turkey shoot?

have to disagree with you there, doing the rambo thing is not effective AT ALL in this game, the moment you forget yourself and try and gain a little bit more ground than you should, the enemy takes advantage and shoots the sh!t out off you, especially in the urban enviroments

[Bunks 0]

I stopped playing ArmA for many reasons, but the AI was a big let down. I started playing Vietcong2 recently to fill the gap till things get worked out, so if you want to see how AI should behave...play VC2 for a few minutes. Cant see why a game over 2 years old now can do this but BIS cant? If Arma AI acted even 10% of the time like VC2 does, it would be mana from heaven.

[l mandrake 9]

I stopped playing ArmA for many reasons, but the AI was a big let down. I started playing Vietcong2 recently to fill the gap till things get worked out, so if you want to see how AI should behave...play VC2 for a few minutes. Cant see why a game over 2 years old now can do this but BIS cant? If Arma AI acted even 10% of the time like VC2 does, it would be mana from heaven.

In what way? Please describe some impressive AI behaviour in VC2?

[Dallas 9]

edited... please delete

[Mongoose_84 0]

OK, I have 1.04, I absolutely love it, in fact it is, despite the bugs, the best computer game I have ever played, period.

However.... one thing is really spoiling the immersion for me. When I am a sniper and I attack a group of enemy soldiers at 500m (like at the start of the 'Seize the Base' Coop map) - I shoot the first AI, all the others lie down on the ground. I shoot some more. The survivors still lie there calmly watching their mates getting killed. I kill EVEN MORE of them. There is no panic, no rush for cover, no wild suppressing fire, nothing, just a bunch of robotic sheep awaiting slaughter....

Either BIS (I know you're busy) or any other coders out there is it possible to improve the AI's reaction to bullets flying around them and soldiers nearby getting killed? Could they figure out the rough direction of the incoming fire and seek cover from it? Would this be possible to implement (I'm guessing it's difficult or BIS would have done it?

To be honest this is the one thing for me that really 'bursts the bubble' at the moment.

What annoys me much more than that is how the ai sometimes spottes you in the most impossible situations.

If you shoot a single bullet at a tank from a perfect cover and 1000 meters distance, it instantly knows where you are and probably starts firing immediately.

And hiding from the ai after you have been spotted once seems impossible, too - no matter what you do.

I really hoped BIS would improve ai in that respect compared to OPF, but it's stayed exactly the same, unfortunately. I know, it must be a very hard thing to implement, but it really would've been great...

Ah well, still a very good game, of course...

edit:

hmm... i haven't played in a while, so i just quickly checked in game, wether what i just wrote is actually true or not (shot bullets at a tank) - and it really doesn't seem to be that bad anymore... funny, i remember when i got the game one of my first thoughts was whyever they hadn't "tweaked" these super-human-ai-senses. dunno what made me think that, maybe they changed it in 1.02? ah, doesn't matter...

[Shifty-16AAB- 0]

what i totally dislike about the ai is the it will always know where you are once you blew up satchels, or fired at4s at a tank. so 2 seconds later you will already receive fire from them.  

edit: lol. that mister above me already stated that fact. okay.

[Scrub 0]

Fixed in 1.05  

( need to make a WinVB macro for that, typed it 5 times today alone, good news)

[5cent_at_NY 0]

@Robert(UK)

Right. Looks like you know the tactics. But in this game, using realistic tactics against AI causes some very funny situation... almost I don't need to think a bit about "tactics".

Quote[/b] ]

doing the rambo thing is not effective AT ALL in this game

Have you ever tried to play the campaign mode? There's several "rambo" mission. Just ONE guy was ordered to infiltrate behind the enemy line, destroy many enemy vehicles and attack enemy camp...  You know it's totally unrealistic and is impossible in real war, but it's not the point. The point is "you can deal with a whole enemy forces w/o any friendlies". In ArmA, the best way to achieve maximum result (in terms of military operation) with minimum damage is to act like a rambo - "thanks to the stupid AI". The problem is not the AI's ability (such as reaction time and shooting skills) but the tactics that AI uses...

btw, someone said that AI is now doing such things as "using building as cover", "split to several groups", in patch 1.05. I hope it's not his "imagination"...