clan of command and squad control

[4 IN 1 0]

now here is one thing i really dont like in OFP, and wished it to have in ARMA but no show.

to start off yes i am totally aware that you can creat a squad with some 100+ units in it, while it may sounds cool, it is totally rubbish IMO, squad became totally uncontrolable when pass 15 ppl, and its clearly that the extra units became usless when in formation even in open area and getting very bad in urban combat(saw the 13X units test video? yes thats what happen when you have some over 20 unit)

so the idea is clear, while having such high unit number, why not class them into different smaller squad and fire teams? in OFP you could creat different colour team, but thats not enought, then someone came up with a script that make a GUI clan of command in platoon size possible(it should be the guys who are creating extra script for ues with VME PLA mod to use), but that thing is too script heavy that even without the AI enhancements script it lag the computer so much, and there are other guy that have creat a more realistic squad command with handsign too but without the OFP use of GUI(which i dont like), so my idea is set, how about have them mixed together, and with the enhanced command in ARMA now, to creat a super realistic squad control that bring the game into hold new level instead of the half done stage right now? i am sure this change can make ARMA into a ture FPShooter killer

i might post some pic to show my idea more clear, but TBH i dont have that time, will see

p.s. i am aware that some topic earlier have talk about this problem and i had posted in them, but seems no one care about that, so plz mod keep this topic alive so it can see daylight

p.s. no.2: this is clearly a "i have an idea" topic, not "s#@EW YOU BIS" topic, if anyone want to bitch / moaning / pointless Bcrap talking i would be pleased to see mods to have their post deleted, but thats up to mods i think

[frederf 0]

I had this suggestion like... 6 months ago. "Tiered command" or "Squads of squads".

This allows fireteams, squads, platoons, etc much better than now. There is a reason why the US Army is set up how it is. Even a trained staff sergeant cannot control 8 men easily, so he controls 2 fireteams and the fireteam sergeants control 3 men directly. They did a study to show that a leader cannot effectively control more than 4 other people besides himself! That is trained military, not video gamers eating chips!

That was a squad leader would make a fireteam group, then a leader for that group is assigned. Then the assigned leader of the "sub group" would get a command bar. This works for a small squad to break up into teams however you want (and change later) of course a platoon or company needs to have leaders also be members of "super groups" So a platoon leader would have a command bar with a few members (platoon XO, medic, radio telelphone operator, and then SQUAD1, SQUAD2, etc).

[lwlooz 0]

It would be a start if the color-teams were to move as a unit. That means that they move together in their own little formation,which as of 1.02 they don't.

BIS seemed very concerned putting the 9-Assign Menu back into the game , so it would be very nice if the teams we can assign are actually somewhat useful as a tactical unit.[i don't know if that already works in 1.04 or 1.05]

Once you have that sorted , you could change the new quick-command menu into something that only controls those color-teams and gives you the option to quickly order basic things like "Cover that sector/angle/direction","Target this thingy I am clicking on [sweet if that would work for area target/fire,but thats not part of this suggestion/idea]","Move there".

That way it just takes 3 steps to order your units around and you can do it all with the mouse and mousewheel.(or whatever keys you use).

As it is now the new "quick"-command-menu just linking to the old one is rather awkward and makes no sense to me.

The other thing I think would improve commanding a bit is if like in OFP the units in the command-bar(at bottom) could be sorted into their vehicles again. I found that be much more clear and informative. [but perhaps there are programming reasons for the new way to sort it].

Another irritating thing is the "Playable"-tab in the Notepad. In my eyes it serves very little to no use and it removed the Gear-Tab which I personally found to be much more userfriendly than having to go into the new dialog each time now.Especially for quickly gathering what kit your guys are equipped with.

Goodie , another useless post typed down. If only BIS would read and implement some of the stuff we write.Most of it is garbage or would take way too much time to implement,but some things sound pretty smart .

[Jinef 2]

Looz is 100% right.

[richard_dean_anderson 0]

Wow, I didn't even know the team assigning thing was in Arma. It wasn't in 1.01 or .02 was it? I thought I heard that it wasn't.

But it's in 1.04, but yes, it seems totally worthless.

I assigned 2 guys to red, 2 to green, and 2 to blue. So, their icons turn to the color of the team that I assigned them to.

So then I select one guy from team red, and order him to move to a bush. But instead of all of team red doing it, only the guy that I ordered moved.

In OFP, couldn't you order entire teams just by selecting one team member and ordering him to do something? My memory sucks, but I thought that's how it worked. The way it is in Arma seems sort of worthless, unless I'm doing something wrong.

But yes, it should work the way the other guy was saying. You assign a leader to each of your teams, and they can order the guys underneath them, while the overall squad leader commands the individual team leaders.

[milobr 0]

Do you guys think is it possible to have voice commands? I mean you say "One, Two, Three, Attack *click*" in the microphone, so you don't need to waste your time and attention pressing a lot of buttons on the keyboard.

Have you ever heard of any software that could implement that? Gameplay'd be a lot better.

[lecholas 2]

In OFP, couldn't you order entire teams just by selecting one team member and ordering him to do something? My memory sucks, but I thought that's how it worked. The way it is in Arma seems sort of worthless, unless I'm doing something wrong.

No, you couldn't do it in OFP. If you ordered something to one member of the team you ordered it only to him. To order something to the whole team you had to select it by 9-9-1 or 9-9-2 (etc, where 1-team red, 2-team green etc till 5-team white-default).

Do you guys think is it possible to have voice commands? I mean you say "One, Two, Three, Attack *click*" in the microphone, so you don't need to waste your time and attention pressing a lot of buttons on the keyboard.

Have you ever heard of any software that could implement that? Gameplay'd be a lot better.

This was mentioned many times. Look for example here:

Topic in OFP Addons and Mods Disscusion

[frederf 0]

Quote[/b] ]It would be a start if the color-teams were to move as a unit.

They do. Try it.

Once you have that sorted , you could change the new quick-command menu into something that only controls those color-teams and gives you the option to quickly order basic things like "Cover that sector/angle/direction","Target this thingy I am clicking on [sweet if that would work for area target/fire,but thats not part of this suggestion/idea]","Move there".

That way it just takes 3 steps to order your units around and you can do it all with the mouse and mousewheel.(or whatever keys you use).

As it is now the new "quick"-command-menu just linking to the old one is rather awkward and makes no sense to me.

Already does watch, move, attack are all quick commands you can give to groups or individuals without using the old 0-9 menu.

[zwobot 17]

Quote[/b] ]It would be a start if the color-teams were to move as a unit.

They do. Try it.

I think he meant they should move in a proper formation and with different behaviours and stances per team. Just like a group inside your group and not every team always in the whole group's formation.

I cannot believe BIS did not improve anything about the teams, it really shouldn't be that hard to assign formations and behaviours to teams.

[EricM 0]

Back in the days, Battlezone 2 controls where very good for controling many units in a mixed FPS/RTS environment.

With the F1-f12 keys you could select single units, just as in Arma and OFP, BUT by pressing ctrl at the same time you could instantly group them together.

The individual units icons would then collapse into a "group" icon, with small dots beneath to tell you how many people it contains.

You would then control whole squads just as you would do with standard units.

Eg : with say 5 squad of 10 guys, you would command 50 guys with only 5 icons...

Arma has everything to do that... except the "Collapse" function, with is key.

[lwlooz 0]

Thank you for pointing the things out you did Frederf.

I think we have one of the many misunderstandings that happen on these forums tho.

Yes they do move together,but not in a formation like I said.

Yes,I know you can use alt,or mouseclick on something to order the things I mentioned,but I was proposing a GUI change. The quick command "only" deals with the color-teams and instead of going to the old menu it goes to a new one with the Entries "Move","Cover","Watch".That way you can do all the stuff with that one command-menu button and your mouse.All I am saying is to split up the individual unit command menus from the team ones. And that new team-only menu could be enhanced in the future

I know it isnt a very ambitious suggestion, but it is relatively easy for BIS to implement into a patch if they could be bothered.

I see no point in arguing with you anyways, since I wouldn't mind your idea as well

[zwobot 17]

Then anyone tell BIS to bring it in the next patch, this is the latest of the uncountabble threads about the command menu and color teams and I dont want to see it disappear again like all the others with nothing changed

[the unknown 0]

To command large groups you need a couple of tings.

1. more collors 5 aint enough.

2. The ability to assign squad leaders that command the groups them selfs. Basicly the callopse function. You only have to tell the leader where to go and he applys tactics.

I do tink point 2 wouldnt get into arma cause its a big engine change.

[Soviet Spetsnaz 0]

Get rid of the colors altogether and reintroduce the greek naming convention (Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc).

Also, each side should have a command tree structure with a command slot (root) wich branches off into the lower levels.

[wamingo 1]

Indeed without proper tiered command it makes for little else but a very large firefight - which is kind of fun though..

[zwobot 17]

Due to the lack of changes in the 1.05 patch regarding issues mentioned in this topic, I bump this up.

At least teams are assignable in the normal command menu now but you still have to command them via quick menu exclusively.

I demand formations and behaviour for individual teams!

[Rhodite 3]

...

Goodie , another useless post typed down. If only BIS would read and implement some of the stuff we write.Most of it is garbage or would take way too much time to implement,but some things sound pretty smart .

While you may feel you have very valid points.

That kind of comment is simply not going to motivate anyone.

Everyone on these forums have ideas and suggestions, because your feel suggestion/s have not "been looked at" there is no need to behave like that.

Make suggestions by all means, but drop the glib comments.

[frederf 0]

I don't think anyone expected a major feature like tiered command in 1.05. It is definitely something to consider. I know the folks at BIS have more on their plate than they have plate, but this innocuous seeming feature could have very large payoffs in terms of game flexibility.

The game prides itself and benefits from being so flexible and open ended. One of the more common brick walls I come up against while playing is that the group command structure is SO STRICT. I can't reorder, subdivide, addon, depart, members of a group nor can I change who's leader. If I could lead another group leader then things get really interesting.

P.S. this is the kinda thing that a dedicated team of scripters could pull off, a complete package of tiered command and on-the-fly group management. But we all know it would be CLUNKY at best without some powerful tools from on-high.

[NeZz_DK 1]

How about multi group membership, so you can group squad leaders in to at command squad and then assign each of them team members they individualy command by what they are commanded from their command squad leader

[messiahua 0]

This is one of the most expected features by me. It's just not right, that you have only one level of command.

The solution to this problem is relatively simple. It should be like C++ inheritance with classes. Every unit class should have parent (only one or even multiple if possible to implement) and array of child for reference to all child unit classes. I can't say, that it is easy to implement it and take into account all "ifs" which can arise during this process, but it IS possible. It should be in the core of the game, not as additional modification. You should be able to launch editor, place some units and just draw group connections! That's all!

[zwobot 17]

A real chain of command is something I would like to see myself in ArmA but I find it quite unlikely that BIS will work on that.

I'm afraid it could lessen the flexibility mentioned by Frederf; there may be mission where you want to use the old-school method to control your squad and other missions would need a hierarchical structure. The mission designers and players should not be limited to one hardcoded mode, like it is now.

BIS has ramped up group size but has failed to give us better control about it. It is ridiculous when 30 units follow you in a big wedge formation.

It would be nice for mission designers and players to have the choice of a "classic" command interface (like it is now + improved team control as said) and a "hierarchical" command interface.

[DieAngel 0]

maybe in VBS2

[4 IN 1 0]

well i wouldnt expect this in very near future, but i just keep hopeing that BIS will put it into the engine, or in the worst case, tell us why it cannot be done

[derfalpha 0]

I found that the Brothers In Arms system was very good.

[zwobot 17]

The only reason I could think of why we might not at least get formations for teams is that BI has designed ArmA so very bad that such a slight change would affect many other parts of the game and thus they fear to implement it.

But if that would be the case I'm really surprised how ArmA could be released in the first place