4 IN 1 0 Posted March 3, 2007 The only reason I could think of why we might not at least get formations for teams is that BI has designed ArmA so very bad that such a slight change would affect many other parts of the game and thus they fear to implement it.But if that would be the case I'm really surprised how ArmA could be released in the first place  the flaws for the new patch as far as i see is fuckup done together by stupid "starf##k" and stuffs, some little sounds bug, and random killed preforcements and unplayability for random users, despide all that (which i only got the starf### fuckups and lucky enought to get pass it with 1 last use of keys ) and i am now having much more fun then b4 i really cant see the engine is that bad Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wamingo 1 Posted March 3, 2007 It was of course just a hack for very large squads. Nothing else. For tiered command you don't need squads > 10 units. You need normal squads (10man's) being given orders by someone in a different squad (a commander). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frederf 0 Posted March 3, 2007 I'm afraid it could lessen the flexibility mentioned by Frederf; there may be mission where you want to use the old-school method to control your squad and other missions would need a hierarchical structure. The mission designers and players should not be limited to one hardcoded mode, like it is now. I hardly think this is the case. If you made a tiered command system so you could have 3 squads of 10 for a platoon, there's nothing preventing the mission designer from just using a single-tier method of 30 guys just like the old OFP/ArmA command system. It's like saying "Oh no, they added 2nd gear and 3rd gear to my bicycle. I'll never be able use 1st gear again!" The new 'gears' are strictly extra, it wouldn't take away anything we already have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zwobot 17 Posted March 4, 2007 I hardly think this is the case. If you made a tiered command system so you could have 3 squads of 10 for a platoon, there's nothing preventing the mission designer from just using a single-tier method of 30 guys just like the old OFP/ArmA command system. I just wanted to make you aware of the (unlikely) possibility, I don't think either that we will loose flexibility if BIS implements changes wisely First of all I hope they will change something at all sooner or later (sooner hopefully). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wolfrug 0 Posted March 4, 2007 Once again, may I remind you of the concept of FAIR, which states the game is supposed to be "fair" both for AI and players : e.g. that anything a player can do the AI can do. For instance, can you not make a mission in which a group of AI are attacking an enemy stronghold, and then play that same mission from the defenders and the attackers perspective, as well as the leader's and teammember's perspectives? Yes, you can : even if the AI teamleader will never be as intelligent as a player. With that in mind, implementing the kind of tiered system you're suggesting would NOT be the easiest thing for the AI to comprehend, seeing as it would no longer be a central unit (the group leader) giving engagement and behavioural commands to everyone, but rather smaller units within the larger hierarchy. For the player, controlling squads of +10 men, such a system would be indispensible ; for the AI, it would probably mostly be confusing. Also there's the question of setting it up in the editor, the addition of many more scripting commands, (AddFireTeam, SetFireTeam, RemoveFireTeam etc)... Although I think it would be very "cool", especially for multiplayer...it seems to be to be something that isn't urgently needed. Since it would require a lot of very fundamental code rewriting, at least in my eyes. Although undoubtedly it'd be very nice. With scripting, everything you suggest is very much possible, to varying degrees of clunkiness. Part of the fun, I say! Kind regards, Wolfrug Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EricM 0 Posted March 4, 2007 The units to squad collapse function would be great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaveman 0 Posted April 10, 2007 With that in mind, implementing the kind of tiered system you're suggesting would NOT be the easiest thing for the AI to comprehend, seeing as it would no longer be a central unit (the group leader) giving engagement and behavioural commands to everyone, but rather smaller units within the larger hierarchy. For the player, controlling squads of +10 men, such a system would be indispensible ; for the AI, it would probably mostly be confusing. Also there's the question of setting it up in the editor, the addition of many more scripting commands, (AddFireTeam, SetFireTeam, RemoveFireTeam etc)... Not really, the reason behind implementing the tiered system of command is to help us players manage and order more effectivelly our team members. The AI team leaders can spit out 250 orders/sec  we can't. I think it could be implemented in two ways for the AI team leader, as is now everyone is under his command, or assign leaders of subgroups as one unit and command it like a single unit. For example, A.I. TL says "2, move to XX XX" A.I.2 wich has 3 other A.I's under is command receives that order like a waypoint and orders his group members to move just like he would with a waypoint. Of course I have absolutly no idea how hard it would be to implement this. But after playing last night with my friends we felt the need for something more when controling squads, we wished we could have a "General" Officer wich could pass info to us like "move here" ou "target that" etc. And then sub officers that also could directly control his AI teammates like now and receive those orders from the "General" Officer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrub 0 Posted April 10, 2007 I'll vote for the collapse/tiered idea.  It would be nice to have top down control of large groups.  Like 5 squads of 10, hit F3 to get the 3rd squad, and the group opens up showing the contents (and the level you are currently at ) selecting the whole group by default, but also allowing you to select more specifically if so needed with the F-keys. [wild rumor] M$ will now create a freeware app called 'Squad Explorer' to counter the costly 'Platoon Navigator' for organizing and commanding groups  [/wild rumor] Edit: One more idea to throw into the fray. What do you all think of a mission specific 'quick call' like hit a key to call a mini menu showing active units filtered by function (or assign a key to bring up directly) Such as 'AT', 'AA', 'MG', 'grenadier'.. etc. And now you have a list of those specific units to assign in a hurry. I've needed that in my missions where a big battle is going on and have more than 10 units - and several BMP's are closing from behind a hill. I am looking down, paging through the unit list, when I just want to holler 'AT!!' and get some guys prepped for them to crest. An assignable key for this would really make me happy. Nice ideas all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
4 IN 1 0 Posted April 10, 2007 I'll vote for the collapse/tiered idea.  It would be nice to have top down control of large groups.  Like 5 squads of 10, hit F3 to get the 3rd squad, and the group opens up showing the contents (and the level you are currently at ) selecting the whole group by default, but also allowing you to select more specifically if so needed with the F-keys. [wild rumor] M$ will now create a freeware app called 'Squad Explorer' to counter the costly 'Platoon Navigator' for organizing and commanding groups  [/wild rumor] Edit: One more idea to throw into the fray.  What do you all think of a mission specific 'quick call' like hit a key to call a mini menu showing active units filtered by function (or assign a key to bring up directly)  Such as 'AT', 'AA', 'MG', 'grenadier'.. etc. And now you have a list of those specific units to assign in a hurry.  I've needed that in my missions where a big battle is going on and have more than 10 units - and several BMP's are closing from behind a hill.  I am looking down, paging through the unit list, when I just want to holler 'AT!!' and get some guys prepped for them to crest.  An assignable key for this would really make me happy.  Nice ideas all. may be a slight changes in function of the quick command list(spacebar by BI)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
madrussian 347 Posted April 10, 2007 Chalk up another vote for the collapse/tiered squad control idea. Just make sure the AI can use it independantly too! Â Also need to make sure you can freely mix human players with AI at any position in the tier AND be able to swap them out freely w/o issue. Â (i.e. System musn't break when using selectPlayer.) Should also point out it's important to keep the current group member system while adding in command of the subgroups. Â So you could have a mix of the normal units in your group you control plus seperately the new subgroups. Â That way the colonel can command the grunts remotely while keeping his personal protection force! Here's another thought for all this... I'm not sure the commander of a given subgroup should be able to select and command an individual unit in that subgroup. Â Wouldn't that kind of defeat the purpose of having subgroups? Â My initial thoughts on this are that the menu to command the selected subgroup should be far more general than the current squad control menu. Perhaps though, it should be possible to establish fine control over a given subgroup, temporarily taking control away from the groupleader? Â Thinking that might turn into a real mess. Yeah, probably better to stay with more general command of subgroups... You give the subgroup a general order and let the squad leaders sort out how to get it done! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrub 0 Posted April 10, 2007 Yup.. I see your point that it could get real messy real fast.. Also, good point about letting the AI handle it themselves, I guess I'm use to micromanaging the whole AI affair.. Instead of saying "spread out and keep quiet" like what happens on my LAN for an ambush, and we humans pick the spot, commanders of AI have to pick the unit, pick the place, call 'hold fire'... ad nauseum. Would be nice to say ambush here 'X' and maybe let a special FSM mode do the dirty. I wonder if we can call or trigger a special FSM with elements and situations, or if it's all hardcoded events... hmmm. Anyone know? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites