Please fix the AI

[fabrizio_t 58]

A simple example of AA AI inconsistencies: the LOS issue.

Look here: [im]http://www.storage01.net/Immagine.JPG[/img]>100kb

These 2 units can't spot each other: they both stare at the opponent, LOS is clear and distance is around 70 meters.

They just can't see. Something basic is wrong here ...

You do know that's caused by you setting the unit skill setting too low don't you?

Try it again with the skill settings at least at the 1/2 mark.

Then try it maxed.

Then try one maxed and one at 0.

The skill settings determine how quickly a unit recognizes and enemy and how quickly it reacts.

I replicated this, then very easily fixed this ai "bug" by jacking up the skill of them in the editor.

I'll agree that it looks rather silly with one vs one duels, but in large battles this more than works itself out by having AI squad and team leaders with greater skill designate targets for the lower skilled and lower ranked ai.

There is enough wrong with this game without people making shit up. This is a setting, not a bug. You could have at least tested it a few more times with various settings  

Hi Ebud,

glad to hear your voice.

Unluckily i made many tests and i can assure you that this behaviour does NON depend on:

1) unit skill / setting in editor. I already tried maxing values;

2) unit skill / setting in options . Same as above.

3) terrain / object geometry complexity. Tried low, normal, high settings.

To me it sounds like a real issue, unless it's my german copy of AA

BTW: I would like to thank RAEDOR for letting us all continue this discussion and hope we will keep it on topic in the future.

So please let other games out, what really matters is getting problem sorted in AA ... and to do that we have at least to check them out and discuss them.

Sorry for my poor english, not my primary language.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Another test-case, now in Dolores, Sahrani.

Screenshot cropped, taken from test mission in editor.

Units can't spot opponents. No cover involved, clear LOS, maxed skill, distance under 100 meters.

Some interesting things:

1) moving units are spotted by steady units at that distance, on the contrary moving units can't spot steady units. That can explain why advancing units are often slaughtered by opponents holding, in absence of any cover ...

2) distance is triggering this LOS problem. Any distance under 60-70 meters make thing work fine. Unluckily that distance is too close for any realistic engagement tactics

3) Putting snipers in place of other units make things works fine even at this distance.

4) LOS issues appear to happen into towns and close to them, not "in the wild".

EDIT: since i can only test this on my copy of AA on my machine i'll provide a .zip with my ugly test-case mission: maybe somebody can test that in the editor and check the behaviour of the AI. Thanks for any feedback.

zip

[Lonewolf1980 0]

I just tried this exact test in the the editor but the AI rifleman shoots me everytime (skill level at default)

Tried 20 metres,50 metres,70 metres,100 metres....how did you get that to happen ? removed ammo ?

edit> i'll try that test mission u just posted...

ok i just tried it,the ai doesn't see eachother in your test mission....weird that.

[Zombie_Mod 0]

In what way is confined spaces easier to program than open? because they have large distances ahead of them?

Granted, I'm not a programmer and therefore not acquainted with the problems of AI programming even though I can imagine the difficulty of doing it.

It is easier because there are far less possibilities for the AI. What they do is largely pre-scripted in the game's level editor. They usually only get attacked from one direction. Paths for the AI to walk on are placed in the level editor and sometimes they will have multiple paths which they choose depending on circumstances.

Programming AI for games like Rainbow Six Vegas is completely different. Imagine if the mission editor had to define almost exactly what the AI would do in OFP or ArmA? How would you enjoy making your own skirmishes if you had to tell the AI EXACTLY what to do? The AI in ArmA has to make it's own paths dynamically unlike other games.

Are you one of the R6 vegas team? If not, how do you know that the R6 AI is scripted?

The player's team AI can't be scripted, because you tell them where to go. Sure, it's walk to point X and hunker down there usually, but that is still more than what ArmA does!

ArmA's AI is:

foreach (Soldier s in EnemySoldiers)

{

if (s.IsUnderFire)

{

s.GoProne(); // a job well done BIS team

}

}

The enemy behaviour of Vegas might be scripted in some circumstances, and of course all the setpieces are too, but how do you know that the places where they run for cover when under fire from ANY angle, and their firing actions are scripted?

[fabrizio_t 58]

I just tried this exact test in the the editor but the AI rifleman shoots me everytime (skill level at default)

Tried 20 metres,50 metres,70 metres,100 metres....how did you get that to happen ? removed ammo ?

edit> i'll try that test mission u just posted...

ok i just tried it,the ai doesn't see eachother in your test mission....weird that.

Hmmmm  ... so it's not just me.

Let's see if other people have the same problem ...

[znashin 0]

I think he meant scripted as in the map has points flagged as cover where the ai will attempt to move and cover. Obviously in ofp and arma sized maps this technique becomes redundent.

As for coding the ai to compute where good cover is on the fly, well, if it was that easy it would be in. I'd guess that it's too processor intensive to be practical or just too unreliable/buggy/hard-to-code.

[Linker Split 0]

Well, the AI is still brainless...

The prob in my opinion is that AA doesn't have a good Source code... They took too little time to upgrade their game!

FarCry, Brothers in arms are good for AI!

[kavoven 4]

ArmA's AI is:

foreach (Soldier s in EnemySoldiers)

{

if (s.IsUnderFire)

{

s.GoProne(); // a job well done BIS team

}

}

haha, that was a good one

[Maddmatt 1]

Are you one of the R6 vegas team? If not, how do you know that the R6 AI is scripted?

The player's team AI can't be scripted, because you tell them where to go. Sure, it's walk to point X and hunker down there usually, but that is still more than what ArmA does!

ArmA's AI is:

foreach (Soldier s in EnemySoldiers)

{

if (s.IsUnderFire)

{

s.GoProne(); // a job well done BIS team

}

}

The enemy behaviour of Vegas might be scripted in some circumstances, and of course all the setpieces are too, but how do you know that the places where they run for cover when under fire from ANY angle, and their firing actions are scripted?

I know the R6 AI is scripted because I have the damn game . I never said that they will do the exact same thing every time. They have paths placed on the map that they use to get to different places. They have places to take cover pre-defined on the map.

Do you ever see that AI hunt you down in the way ArmA AI does? NO. Play the terrorist hunt mode, those maps are more open than the single player maps. Notice how bad the AI is now? The AI can't do it's own pathfinding.

ArmA AI can't work in the same way. In ArmAs mission editor you can place a squad, give it a waypoint and they will find their own path. In R6 you have to define paths in the level, otherwise they wouldn't find their way around a wall.

[fabrizio_t 58]

I was able to reproduce the LOS / invisibility issue with a distance of 47,5 meters, on a straight road. See screenshot.

Other findings:

--------------

1) this issue is related to infantry units. Vehicles are usually spotted without problems.

2) It seems to be somewhat related also to the range of weapons: snipers have longer firing range and they can spot opponents from greater distance.

PLZ, can you people confirm this issue ?

Provide feedback here if possible.

2ND .ZIP TEST-CASE

[Maddmatt 1]

1) this issue is related to infantry units. Vehicles are usually spotted without problems.

2) It seems to be somewhat related also to the range of weapons: snipers have longer firing range and they can spot opponents from greater distance.

1) Well vehicles tend to be bigger and louder .

2) Probably the soldier class, not the weapons. In OFP the sniper was configured to see better in the config. Give a sniper an M4, or a soldier an M24 and you should see that it's not the weapons. That's how it was in OFP as far as I can remember.

[sorrow 0]

another problem with ai is they don't keep formation and don't cover each other in urban combat most of the time. they act rather random and careless.

Even when not in combat they dont act well, for example the way they simply move around in the streets, and intersecting streets - no cover, no leaning, everyone watches the same direction while moving, most of the time someone simply runs into the unknown area without any support from his teammates and etc.

[Heatseeker 0]

How many complainers here are making missions? (im not talking about throwing some units at the editor and hitting preview).

The a.i. in most games is not fully independant, much of what they do is set up during level assembly, even/especially random actions. Call of Duty a.i., FEAR a.i., R6 a.i. etc are not just thrown at a level editor and left alone.

Everyone knows that a single a.i. unit with no waypoints wont do much other than standing in the open...

On the other hand an Arma a.i. squad will do alot on their own, they will identify and react to enemy presence, adapt their behaviour and engage, share and report information like casualties, killed targets, health condition, ammo amount, report target locations, etc and react to it using a real chain of comand.

They will interact with other friendly units (provide rearm, repair and medical support).

They will retreat, regroup and re engage if they sustain heavy casualties.

This is all unedited real a.i. behaviour, with some basic editing knowledge you can easily achieve more with some triggers, waypoints and syncronisations..

Keep in mind that the a.i. interacts with the whole game (diferent environments and vehicles) and you can use alot more units per mission now.

I knew Arma would bring alot of newbies but i expected people who have been around for a while to understand how the game works, sometimes i think people would be more impressed if BIS overscripted their missions and left the editor out of the game... players would then be praising how the a.i. flanked their squad because they wouldnt understand how or why it happened .

[Maddmatt 1]

...

Exactly!

[Zombie_Mod 0]

I think he meant scripted as in the map has points flagged as cover where the ai will attempt to move and cover. Obviously in ofp and arma sized maps this technique becomes redundent.

As for coding the ai to compute where good cover is on the fly, well, if it was that easy it would be in. I'd guess that it's too processor intensive to be practical or just too unreliable/buggy/hard-to-code.

Yeah well it makes sense to mark points on the map as cover, I mean how else are the AI enemies to know where to go? Texture recognition?

You can give it all the flannel you like but I'm playing Vegas right now and I'm telling you every thing that can be hid behind, has been marked as such to the AI. The points where enemies appear, yep thats scripted, but where they run to - nope, I don't see that. I've had to play maps more than once (cos save points are few in the game) and tried different tactics and the enemy has behaved differently. Look, the R6 AI isn't setting the world on fire, but its better than ArmAs!

If I were running BIS, I would ensure that 3D models have "cover vertices" that indicate to Ai troops where they can take cover safely, and fire from. As I'm not, they won't.

EDIT: As for the difficulty of implementing large open maps and AI, how do you explain company of heroes' ? Sizeable playing field, multiple attack areas and the troops take cover, run, flank and have a chain of command.

[sorrow 0]

Heatseeker, imho this topic is about the ai flaws ppl would like to see fixed and etc., not about what the ai can already do

[Zombie_Mod 0]

Heatseeker and Madmatt, are you developers? Just interested.

I am, have been for 20 years since C64 days. What's your background?

I like to know who I am talking to

[fabrizio_t 58]

On the other hand an Arma a.i. squad will do alot on their own, they will identify and react to enemy presence, adapt their behaviour and engage, share and report information like casualties, killed targets, health condition, ammo amount, report target locations, etc and react to it using a real chain of comand.

I think that in the case AI does not "identify and react to enemy presence" can be a major basic problem.

I am just showing you a case in which AI does not behave this way, and what i show you is not the "bug", but it's "demonstration".

I have not discovered this issue by randomly placing units in the editor, like you may think: when i tried coding advancing and cover behaviours i suddenly i noticed that in most cases AI was "blindly" advancing through cities running into enemy without identifying it.

Then after many attempts i was able to reproduce the test case i provided here. I hope it will be useful.

[Maddmatt 1]

Heatseeker and Madmatt, are you developers? Just interested.

I am, have been for 20 years since C64 days. What's your background?

I like to know who I am talking to

No I'm not a developer .

And what exactly do you develop? Knowing programming doesn't necessarily mean that you know alot about AI .

And have you tried terrorist hunt mode in Vegas yet? I know I didn't find the AI very impressive there!

Just because the AI doesn't do the exact same thing every time doesn't mean that paths are not pre-defined. They can have multiple paths to handle threats from different direction. For the kind of game it is, the AI in Vegas is good but nothing I havn't seen before.

Have you ever opened up the mission editor of these kinds of games? I have and they are far from independent. You need paths and points defined as cover.

Now how hard is it in ArmA? All you do there is give them a few waypoints and they look after themselves. They flank and tend to avoid open areas. They find their way to places without intervention from the mission editor. They can hunt you down no matter where you are.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Please guys keep discussion on-topic.

I'll be personally grateful to anybody who can collaborate to determine the AA AI issues and bugs, since i am still an OFP/AA addict.

As a programmer let me say that what does not work can be usually fixed, it's a a matter of efforts.

So let's spend some time to tell BI what's not working with AI and elaborate about it. Hopefully they'll fix some issues .

[Zombie_Mod 0]

Heatseeker and Madmatt, are you developers? Just interested.

I am, have been for 20 years since C64 days. What's your background?

I like to know who I am talking to

No I'm not a developer .

And what exactly do you develop? Knowing programming doesn't necessarily mean that you know alot about AI .

And have you tried terrorist hunt mode in Vegas yet? I know I didn't find the AI very impressive there!

Just because the AI doesn't do the exact same thing every time doesn't mean that paths are not pre-defined. They can have multiple paths to handle threats from different direction. For the kind of game it is, the AI in Vegas is good but nothing I havn't seen before.

Have you ever opened up the mission editor of these kinds of games? I have and they are far from independent. You need paths and points defined as cover.

Now how hard is it in ArmA? All you do there is give them a few waypoints and they look after themselves. They flank and tend to avoid open areas. They find their way to places without intervention from the mission editor. They can hunt you down no matter where you are.

Erm, I used to write video games years back in ye olde assembler days..... its still available if you google... so I know how AI works, to an extent

Oh yeah and I wrote the AI for the Zombie Mod.... (not much AI needed for brain dead humans, right enough, but still they have to prioritise targets, know when to attack)

What scripts did you code for OFP???

You'll defend ArmA to the death won't you? You're inventing behaviour that doesn't exist in the game.

The AI tend to avoid open areas, oh really? So, how come in the examples listed above the AI just sit there??

Finding your way from A to B over a map isn't difficult to write and the A* algorithm (or derivative from it) that does it is already familiar to many games developers, so whats so special there?

Matt, I don't believe this magical ArmA AI you talk about. Why don't you place an AI squad without AT in a field next to a forest, start shooting at them with a tank, and lets see how many of them take cover in the forest, shall we? Ramp their skill up to max too.

[Heatseeker 0]

Heatseeker and Madmatt, are you developers? Just interested.

I am, have been for 20 years since C64 days. What's your background?

I like to know who I am talking to

No im just an ordinary gamer, but if you are the developer of anything other than the zombie mod i expected you would understand what the diferences betwean real a.i. and scripted behaviours are. To understand the diference betwean a large scale WAR game taking place in a gigantic, diverse, open environment with almost 1 million objects and a simple corridor shooter with respawning bots around corners using level design tricks.

Please let us know about what fantastic AAA productions using state of the art artificial inteligence you are involved with and i promiss to check them out...

Quote[/b] ]

Heatseeker, imho this topic is about the ai flaws ppl would like to see fixed and etc., not about what the ai can already do.

I understand that the a.i. is not perfect but unlike some claims here its not bad and i cant think of any other a.i. that would perform this well in a open, diverse and huge game like this.

Edit

I understand the need to report possible bugs, if you do so without making absurd comparisons with other games chances are the feedback is more likely to reach the developers (BIS).

[fabrizio_t 58]

I understand that the a.i. is not perfect but unlike some claims here its not bad and i cant think of any other a.i. that would perform this well in a open, diverse and huge game like this.

Aren't you interested in pointing out things that don't work and have to be fixed ? Not perfect is fine and enough for you ?

Concretely I think we will get eventually a patch when EURO/US AA will be released in February and many bugs will be ironed out.

I'd like to see some AI problems fixed with that patch. I don't know how many patches we will get later ...

[Zombie_Mod 0]

Heatseeker and Madmatt, are you developers? Just interested.

I am, have been for 20 years since C64 days. What's your background?

I like to know who I am talking to

No im just an ordinary gamer, but if you are the developer of anything other than the zombie mod i expected you would understand what the diferences betwean real a.i. and scripted behaviours are. To understand the diference betwean a large scale WAR game taking place in a gigantic, diverse, open environment with almost 1 million objects and a simple corridor shooter with respawning bots around corners using level design tricks.

Please let us know about what fantastic AAA productions using state of the art artificial inteligence you are involved with and i promiss to check them out...

Quote[/b] ]

Heatseeker, imho this topic is about the ai flaws ppl would like to see fixed and etc., not about what the ai can already do.

I understand that the a.i. is not perfect but unlike some claims here its not bad and i cant think of any other a.i. that would perform this well in a open, diverse and huge game like this.

I do know the difference between real AI and scripted behaviour.

Also, I mentioned the game Company of Heroes - explain how that game has such good AI and ArmA does not? The maps there are densely populated, it's squad based and yet 100% better than ArmA even on a Radeon 9700pro.

What games am I working on with AAA? I dont work in games any more, the pay's lousy, and besides I'm a bit too old for that side of the industry - can you imagine a 34 year old working on Sonic the Hedgehog type stuff???

but like I said to MadMatt you can check out my previous work with Google. I wrote a streetfighter 2 clone 10 years ago, reworked the game BoulderDash (not bad for 64K on a PC), have rewritten the C64 game BRUCE LEE with smart AI, so I know the challenges. I can give you the source if you like...

[KeyCat 131]

... it's just same FPS game like Delta Force or Spec Ops.

You must have thoose rose-tinted glasses on if you say that the AI in ArmA is the same as in DF

I mean come on... In DF 1/2 the AI was non existant and they just stood there like billboards looking stupid, i know for sure since we tried to play it co-op and IMHO it was a complete joke compared to both OFP/ArmA.

I'm not saying that the current AI in ArmA is perfect, there are still room for improvments. But the limited testing I've done shows that it at least it's better than OFP in several ways. Totally realistic? No, but ArmA is still the best title in it's genre and all we can do is hope for more AI improvements in the future.

Another related thing I observed last night when I was able to actually play some co-op missions on a dedicated server was that the AI seemed much more lame. Of course it could be the missions we played but the AI dind't act nearly as good as I've seen them do in the editor while testing? Was it my imagination or have anyone else noticed the same???

/KC