If the Mi-24 Hind is In Somalia for the mission...

[Hasha 2]

I just watched the movie black hawk down and man it is good!It made me gained a lot of respect to the soldiers in war and what they are truly facing. The US should have "borrowed" some Hind or use the pakistani's for the mission instead of the flimsy UH-60 that have paper armour. Those 19 soldier would not have been killed if an old chubby Hind in hovering in the air!

Any ideas, comments? I think the US sent in the wrong Heli that is y everything is messed up.

[christophercles 0]

No, the americans would never send in a hind, and it doesnt matter anyway, since both of the rpg's hit sensitive parts on the helicopters armour, which probably would have taken down even a hind.

[Assault (CAN) 1]

The U.S. didn't send in any heavy battle equipment to Somalia because they did not think that there was any need for it. They had no idea what would happen, so they witheld their heavy gear, like the AC-130 Spectre gunship. Things would have been alot different if the heavy gear had been there.

Tyler

[christophercles 0]

They didnt even have any bradleys, or for that fact, ANY armour there, they had to borrow armour from other countries.

[Hasha 2]

At least the Hind has better fire power that the crap UH-60s

[Assault (CAN) 1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">At least the Hind has better fire power that the crap UH-60s<span id='postcolor'>

There is nothing wrong with the UH-60. It was not designed to be an attack helicopter, it was meant for transporting soldiers and equipment which it does quite well.

The U in UH-60 = Utility. (i think..)

Tyler

[christophercles 0]

Yes it does. If they too use hinds, they would be shot down even easier, because they are so slow, and wouldnt be able to fire at the urban areas easily because of the slow turn rate.

[Hasha 2]

How about the Hokum, the cobra or the Appache?? Where are they? I really feel sorry for the soldiers : ((((

Boooohooooooooooooooooooooooooo :*****(

[Frizbee 0]

It wouldn't have mattered what helicopters the Americans had been using. Any transport helicopter would have been taken down after two RPG hits like that.

[EveronVetsAgainstTheWar 0]

Hasharajimia, you are truley an idiot. Why would you replace a Blackhawk with an Apache? Do Apaches transport troops? What are you thinking? The Blackhawks were used to carry the soldiers there, and the Littlebirds were used for transport as well as some support. It was a catostrophe because they had no idea they would meet thousands of armed militia, and they had no idea that an RPG would hit their tail rotors. It was meant to be very quick, get in get out. You don't need huge assault choppers for a mission like that.

You always put stupid posts on this forum like, "honor the japs who died at Pearl Harbor" and "What is the best way to kill myself" Think of something to post that's half intelligent even if you have to fake it.

[christophercles 0]

Yeah, the only reason they had the Ah-6 little birds there (which saved alot of lives, but also took them) , was because it was fast and it could cary a small commando team.

[Wobble 1]

if you think a hind would survive a RPG hit .. well anywhere.. you are gravley mistaken of its abilities.. RPGs are made to kill ARMOR.. and even what would be referred to as "LIGHT" armor is still a HELL of a lot thicker than any thing any helicopter has...

and there is NO WAY a hind could perform the task the UH60s were sent in to do.. its is far too cumbersome and low fedility aircraft.. it turns slow, accelerates slow, decelerates slow.. its about as nimble as an 18 wheeler.. it would just be a bigger, slower, more sluggish target for the skinnies.

[christophercles 0]

An m113, is built out of aircraft grade material, and yet it will succumb to an rpg, why would you thing anything different of the hind?

[Guest]

There have been many reports from Chechenya of Hinds taking 2 RPG hits and getting home, but that's not the point. A hind doing straffing runs down the streets using S-5/S-8 rockets and KAB250KG Bombs would of been alot more successful than the AH-6's with their very limited weapons and ammo load. The hind in the role of the UH60 wouldn't of worked so well, hind is too large for inner-city picking up and droping off troops.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">An m113, is built out of aircraft grade material, and yet it will succumb to an rpg<span id='postcolor'>

M113 is made of crappy Alluminum, the hind is made of armoured steel plating to the best of my knowledge.

You know what really fucked me off? right at the end you see two M60 tanks just sitting there..Fucking outrageous..

[Mister Frag 0]

The US used the assets they had, nothing more, nothing less. The restrictions were imposed by people who fly desks back in Washington D.C., and to speculate what some imaginary equipment would have done is pointless.

The HIND is exceptionally well armored in some places, and not so well in others. The tail structure is covered with WW II-style canvas, for example, and components critical to controlling the tail rotor (and thus the entire gunship) are unprotected underneath it all.

Every aircraft ever made can be brought down with relative ease. Occasionally we see evidence that suggests otherwise, but on close examination it becomes obvious that these aircraft that have limped home against all odds did so not only due to the extraordinary skills of their pilots, but also due to sheer luck.

[Sandman 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">M113 is made of crappy Alluminum, the hind is made of armoured steel plating to the best of my knowledge.<span id='postcolor'>

I hate to do this...  

The M113 is in fact made of aluminium, but NOT crappy aluminium, but the same aluminium alloy that we use in modern combat airplanes.

Maybe thats what Cristphercles tried to say...if u 2 combine your answers U´re closer to the truth...

Sorry, I just had to correct this....

[christophercles 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mister Frag @ Jan. 31 2002,10:39)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The US used the assets they had, nothing more, nothing less. The restrictions were imposed by people who fly desks back in Washington D.C., and to speculate what some imaginary equipment would have done is pointless.

The HIND is exceptionally well armored in some places, and not so well in others. The tail structure is covered with WW II-style canvas, for example, and components critical to controlling the tail rotor (and thus the entire gunship) are unprotected underneath it all.

Every aircraft ever made can be brought down with relative ease. Occasionally we see evidence that suggests otherwise, but on close examination it becomes obvious that these aircraft that have limped home against all odds did so not only due to the extraordinary skills of their pilots, but also due to sheer luck.<span id='postcolor'>

Yes that is what i meant about the materials of the m113's, and the above quote is why i was saying the hind still would have went down, because the first blackhawk was hit in the tail. Im not sure about the armour plating on the gearing on the hind, but thats where the other blackhawk was hit.

[Guest]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I hate to do this...  

The M113 is in fact made of aluminium, but NOT crappy aluminium, but the same aluminium alloy that we use in modern combat airplanes.

Maybe thats what Cristphercles tried to say...if u 2 combine your answers U´re closer to the truth...

Sorry, I just had to correct this.... <span id='postcolor'>

Huh? I fail to see what you've corrected?

Making an Armoured vehicle of aluminium is retarded. Making a plane from aluminium is smart. Even combat airplanes. An M113 doing 30mph down a road is one hell of a bullet magnet, and considering it can be easily penetrated by 12.7mm rounds from EVERY side (some say even 7.62x39mmAP rounds can penetrated it too) makes it a death trap.

By "crappy aluminium" I was refering to ALL aluminium being crappy in the role of armoured pretection. If you dont believe me go try turning steel and aluminium on a lathe or cutting it with a hacksaw..You'll soon get my point.

(btw I have 10mm sheets of "aircraft grade aluminium" so please dont lecture to me on the difference in metal quality)

[sn1per 0]

Yep. M113 is like paper in modern (and was like that even 1960's) combat. A handgrenade will puncture the armor. Check out the M113s in combat, they have lots of additional protection on them. Not just in the way normally tanks or APC's have. Using aluminum for armor sound really stupid. Oh well, crappy APC the M113 anyway. Really old design and armed only with HMG...

And what comes to the Hind vs. UH-60 discussion, I've read combat reports of hinds surviving 5 RPG hits and They are not as slow and hard to control that this topic says.

In chechnya at the grozny fighting hinds had to fly in cover of "secure" buildings (note: in urban environment) to reach the targets. Then they would "pop" from behind buildings to attack. I don't believe that a clumsy chopper could do that.

But UH-60 and Mi-24 are for different purposes, the other one is a utility chopper and the other one is a gunship. although a hind can carry passengers

[Wobble 1]

the M113' armor is Rolled 5083/5086 H32 aluminum armor, its NOTHING like aircraft aluminum.. thats stupid.. its a more compressed and MUCH MUCH tougher.. its 1.75 inch thick in the front 1.5 inch on the sides and 1.25 on the bottom.

aluminum is not aluminium.. there are different kinds just like steel.

its can effectivly stop most small arms fire (rifles..etc) ..

the reason its so lightly armored is because:

A: so it can hold 11 men and still be small

B: it is amphibious.

l

quite trying to compare it to a tank and say it sucks.. its not ment to be a tank, is not ment to go blasting into combat with gun blazing.. its just a vehicle used to get troops frm point A to point B with a deacent level of protection and defensive capability... basically its made to go places that are not full fledged combat areas.. but are still a tad too dangerous for a truck..

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (sn1per @ Feb. 01 2002,23:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yep. M113 is like paper in modern (and was like that even 1960's) combat. A handgrenade will puncture the armor. Check out the M113s in combat, they have lots of additional protection on them. Not just in the way normally tanks or APC's have. Using aluminum for armor sound really stupid. Oh well, crappy APC the M113 anyway. Really old design and armed only with HMG...

And what comes to the Hind vs. UH-60 discussion, I've read combat reports of hinds surviving 5 RPG hits and They are not as slow and hard to control that this topic says.

In chechnya at the grozny fighting hinds had to fly in cover of "secure" buildings (note: in urban environment) to reach the targets. Then they would "pop" from behind buildings to attack. I don't believe that a clumsy chopper could do that.

But UH-60 and Mi-24 are for different purposes, the other one is a utility chopper and the other one is a gunship. although a hind can carry passengers <span id='postcolor'>

In general, hand grenades are anti-personnel weapons, and not terribly effective against armored vehicles.

[Jinef 2]

Okay, i've been briefed on the opposing forces helicopters and hace even got to fly a Hind when i went to the Chech rep.

An RPG would probably not destroy or even damage a hind much if it hit it's underside armour. But the tail rotors are the hinds weakness. In afghanistan the rebels threw rocks at the tail rotors and they fell out the sky! The stingers the americans gave them had a lot less of a reliability rating!

Also the UH60s should have been flying higher because in real life (the film doesn't like to make somalis look smart! one of the helicopters was shot down when flying circuit and the rpg gunner must have worked out the correct angle using the sight!

The americans should have been more aware to the fact that the Somalis had RPGS before they even set out. they probably should have extracted the deltas and hostages by littlebird as well instead of trucks.

[bn880 5]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (christophercles @ Jan. 29 2002,23:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Yes it does. If they too use hinds, they would be shot down even easier, because they are so slow, and wouldnt be able to fire at the urban areas easily because of the slow turn rate.<span id='postcolor'>

What... They are slow? How fast do you think the GIs were intending to fly? If you put a grandma in an F1 car, and she causes an accident by driving too slow, was the vehicle to blame?

Anyway, the point is, they were not prepared and over confident. Not going to say any more.

Like Jinef just said, Hinds can and do take RPG hits. They can also transport, as you know.

[Die Alive 0]

8--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Guest @ Feb. 01 2002,098)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">blah blah blah<span id='postcolor'>

Sorry, just checking what happens if you quote someone who is banned, see if the person name shows up.

I wish ppl would type their names at the bottom of each post so when they get banned, we know who they were.

-=Die Alive=-

[Warin 0]

Another moribund thread. Stop it!