An Odd mix of Realism and Arcade…

[Gimpster 0]

Helicopters are not Fixed Wing Aircraft, so why are they sharing the same base physics and control interface mechanics?

This has been one of the main issues I have with the combined arms Sims/Games we have seen of late. OFP, BF2 and now ArmA all make the mistake of basing their helicopter implementation off their implementation of fixed wing aircraft and the two are just not that similar to make it work well. There are a few places where the two basic physics models overlap but it’s not enough to have the two tied together since in the areas where the two do overlap the physics dynamic at work are different despite having a similar effect on flight.

I can fully understand the need to allow for some relaxation of the hard physics to allow for greater accessibility for the masses that may not have the hardware or skill to effetely use these parts of the package if they were made to be highly accurate and doing so would not also handicap those with the required hardware and skill. By choosing to base the physics off a very inaccurate model the end result is that it’s just difficult for everyone.

It goes beyond that though, a wheeled vehicle also works in a different basic way then a tracked vehicle, a boat or amphibious vehicles works differently then a wheeled or tracked vehicle. ArmA is a based on a tool used to assist in the training military and peace keeping forces across the globe and has implemented many realistic traits to try and accurately simulate things such as ballistics, yet vehicles are implemented in a way that is far from realistic in an environment where their used is almost mandatory given the size of the virtual space we have been given to use.

I really had higher hopes for ArmA and am a bit disappointed. I hope that for Game 2 they really take a closer look at the vehicles and try to implement their different incarnations in a way to make each feel closer to what they are and to make each feel unique. Sure it adds complexity, sure is increases the overhead and power needed of the CPU, and makes the control configuration a bit large and intimidating, but the payoff is worth the added difficulties. ArmA is a great improvement over OFP, but it’s still not what we hoped it would be. I would love to see ArmA patched in the future or modified in an expansion to shift more towards realism but I can wait until Game 2 if that is what it takes and enjoy ArmA for what it is, even if it is not what we hoped it would be.

[Heatseeker 0]

Gets my vote, not saying full sim alike but atleast realistic performance and handling would have been a major improvement for me. I think one dificulty is combining vehicle physics with the diverse terrain and a.i. handling. Basically if they went that far Arma would have to stay in development for a very long time and they really had to get it out but i do hope that improved vehicle simulation is considered for game2 .

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

I like OFP the way it is, I haven't played ArmA yet and will have to wait until a US publisher picks it up unless Sprocket will contain an English version.

If I wanted to play a game of real life, I would just go to work and live the game, instead, I play a game that is fun and takes all the fun things about work and puts them in one place. I'm not a helicopter pilot, and I don't want to have to be in order to enjoy that aspect of the game.

[mattxr 9]

If you ask me, it looks like they fly realistic.. Maybe they might need tweaking but i saw 2 videos of some good helicopter flying with no crazy manuovers. and it looked good. and it looks like the AI fly helicopters great.

Practice Makes Perfect

In My Eyes It Doesn't look like theres much wrong..

.. Practice Makes Perfect ..

[Gimpster 0]

I would not call that good helicopter flying but its passable, about the same level at my ability as well though I can not do that from the cockpit with my control setup given I do not have a hat switch or headtracking solution.

Did you look close enough at that video to notice the lack of percise cyclic angles? Probaly not. If you look closely you will notice that the helo only pitches and roll in 5 -10 degree incrments. How does that make good control easy? On the landing he nearly put the helo on its side to correct for some small latteral movment and ended up landing several meters to the right of his target helipad.

The point is that vehicle physics have been poorly implimented in general which is odd considering they are a large part of this package.

[CanisDEK 1]

It's not just the flight model that is a strange mix of arcade and simulation.

The guns are strange too. Ballistic model is very well done and the iron sights are great.

It is really dumb however that you can easily aim with the quake like cross hair and hit everything with a saw easily at 200m+ without even being prone.

Shooting without the iron sights up needs to be tweaked! It's just way to arcadish now.

[BlackAlpha 10]

I agree with Gimpster. Would be nice to have realistic choppers but I don't see this happening until maybe the next game. I can imagine that they would need to change a lot, probaby the whole engine. Also if you look at OFP and ArmA and the physics. They are pretty much the same in both games so I don't expect them to change something big like this chopper thing anytime soon.

We should still make suggestions though. Would be nice to make suggestions for everything but then you would get a huge list.

[Sentralia 0]

Dear God,

Please take the stupid crosshairs out of the game and the third-person view. I want a simulation. Also, increase gun sway tremendously when standing and moving. While your at it, smite the people who whine about the helicopters. Thank you!

[DrBobcat 0]

Dear God,

Please take the stupid crosshairs out of the game and the third-person view. I want a simulation. Also, increase gun sway tremendously when standing and moving. While your at it, smite the people who whine about the helicopters. Thank you!

Lucky for you, the crosshairs and third-person view can both be disabled in the difficulty menu.

- dRb

[Sentralia 0]

Dear God,

Please take the stupid crosshairs out of the game and the third-person view. I want a simulation. Also, increase gun sway tremendously when standing and moving. While your at it, smite the people who whine about the helicopters. Thank you!

Lucky for you, the crosshairs and third-person view can both be disabled in the difficulty menu.

- dRb

I know. But the fact that they even exist in a game that promotes "ultimate combat simulation" is just plain annoying. This game will probably turn into a slow-paced BF2, not a simulation. I understand it is a game and it has to be fun, blah blah blah. I don't think any game will be made for us hardcore-sim people, because it doesn't appeal. It's all about the money, not the customer satisfaction. I hope this game doesn't let me down....

Also, take out that stupid zoom thing!

[Gimpster 0]

Sentralia,

If the modding comunity have anything to do with it, it will tend to move more towards simulation then arcade, or at the very least will be pushed as far as possible in both directions.

Personaly I am more for the Simulation camp, but I will admit to using 3rd person in some cases.  Mainly when comanding or opperating a vehicle.  Without the ability to easily look about me I just can not keep track of all the terain when flying a heli or effectly select targets for my gunner.

But the other things I can live without.  If I am denighed 3rd person on a server I will choose to be a grunt or gunner, nothing more as I lack the hardware solution to effectly fill the roll.

[december 0]

Sentralia, if you want a sim play VBS1 if you want a game play ArmA

I stopped playing VBS coz I prefer a game to a sim.

[Gimpster 0]

ArmA - $50

VBS1 - $500+

Is there even a compairison?

[Metal Heart 0]

Even most sims, such as Falcon 4 have settings where any noob can just jump in, take off and blow shit up. It doesn't really make it less appealing to hardcore-sim people in my opinnion.

[MAA3057 0]

I know. But the fact that they even exist in a game that promotes "ultimate combat simulation" is just plain annoying. This game will probably turn into a slow-paced BF2, not a simulation. I understand it is a game and it has to be fun, blah blah blah. I don't think any game will be made for us hardcore-sim people, because it doesn't appeal. It's all about the money, not the customer satisfaction. I hope this game doesn't let me down....

Also, take out that stupid zoom thing!

Sentralia:

The WGL mod has everything you're looking for.

[Antichrist 0]

Unfortunately BIS compeletely murdered vehicle control system in ArmA. There is nothing else to it. As it stands now it is even worse than BF2.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

Quote[/b] ]Also, increase gun sway tremendously when standing and moving

Why? If you know what you are doing, it's not that difficult to control your weapon, besides, that is what training is for.

[Victor_S. 0]

Removing crosshairs and 3rd person is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. It can be disabled...... I think some people just like to bitch about things.

[frederf 0]

When standing and moving at a jogging pace? I could believe that the weapon sway was originally too little for this.

Attempting to control your weapon (for the purposes of firing it) is the 'aimed walk' feature of ArmA. Thus your comment about trained weapon control in a movement mode that is by-definition not designed to have the weapon fireable is moot and misapplied.

Hopefully your classmates payed attention in kindergarten and faired better than you.

[Clavicula_nox4817 0]

When standing and moving at a jogging pace? I could believe that the weapon sway was originally too little for this.

Attempting to control your weapon (for the purposes of firing it) is the 'aimed walk' feature of ArmA. Thus your comment about trained weapon control in a movement mode that is by-definition not designed to have the weapon fireable is moot and misapplied.

Hopefully your classmates payed attention in kindergarten and faired better than you.

I am a soldier, I've actually been to war and in combat, unlike you I imagine. Controlling your weapon while moving, and quickly, is something you can train yourself to do by simply bracing the stock into your shoulder. This is made more difficult by the IBA, so instead you can brace it in your elbow or in your arm halfway from the shoulder to the elbow.

[4 IN 1 0]

i just wish that they remove the sharpen control on chopper and bring back the heavy, weighty feeling we used to get from the chopper in ofp, there is notthing to do with the control, however, it would be even better to have fix wing and chopper be in different config

[USSRsniper 0]

Sentralia, if you want a sim play VBS1 if you want a game play ArmA

I stopped playing VBS coz I prefer a game to a sim.

is this joke? VBS is not even close to sim.. with their arcadish helicopter controls. If you want real siimulator, Falcon 4, IL-2 and many more.... but i would not call VBS a simulator.... its basically buffed up OFP   If military uses it for training it does not mean its 100% realistic   Actually i find simulators even more FUN than crappy BF2..   About helicopter controls, first people wanted it more realistic now more arcadish controls from OFP? we should be moving forward not backwards

[Antichrist 0]

There is a big difference between realistic and crap. ArmA helicopter controls and flight model are crap. Yes, I'd rather go back to OFP controls.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

About helicopter controls, first people wanted it more realistic now more arcadish controls from OFP? we should be moving forward not backwards  

Have you actually tried them? I’m sure most people that have been defending the Flight Model haven’t played with it. Or at least they have a version different to mine.

I do fly a lot of sims, I even fly light aircraft when I can afford it, and i play a lot of games, OFP, BF2 etc. While I think the helicopter flight model was a step in the right direction I think it wasn’t very well implemented.

I'm lucky enough to have a Cougar HOTAS complete with rudder pedals, even I can’t get fine enough control to fly the helicopters on a precise attack run. While the flight model is what people claim to be "realistic", I can tell you its not. Its impossible to fly a helicopter precisely even with lots of practice.

Its easy to get off the ground and fly around, sure. Everyone should be able to do that but even the Ai cant manage to fly the bloody things and use FFARs. The flight model IS fucked/borked/screwed/bollocks'd/FUBAR *delete as appropriate, it does need adjusting.

And as for the Harrier...well let’s just say if BIS aren’t going to fix the flight model the plane makers might as well just all pack up and go mod something else. I know I won’t be bothering to make aircraft anymore. There's going to be no point.

I dont want the OFP flight model back, it was arcadish and overly simple. But I do want the current ArmA flight model changed for somethign usable.

[frederf 0]

When standing and moving at a jogging pace? I could believe that the weapon sway was originally too little for this.

Attempting to control your weapon (for the purposes of firing it) is the 'aimed walk' feature of ArmA. Thus your comment about trained weapon control in a movement mode that is by-definition not designed to have the weapon fireable is moot and misapplied.

Hopefully your classmates payed attention in kindergarten and faired better than you.

I am a soldier, I've actually been to war and in combat, unlike you I imagine. Controlling your weapon while moving, and quickly, is something you can train yourself to do by simply bracing the stock into your shoulder. This is made more difficult by the IBA, so instead you can brace it in your elbow or in your arm halfway from the shoulder to the elbow.

Clearly your ears were shot off in the war.

Your character during normal forward movement is not attempting to hold his weapon in an employable way. If a trained soldier could hold their weapon steadier if they wanted to is irrelevant since the ArmA character under normal forward movement isn't trying to.

"This ArmA character is doing a poor job of holding his weapon ready to fire accurately while walk/job/whatevering!"

"He's not attempting to hold his weapon in that way... thus his lack of success isn't an oversight but a decision."

ANYWAY... this sadistic jaunt of making fun and out-arguing (arguably) other forum goers is now becoming borderline trolling. My apologies for the 20% of you using this forum for good, not evil.