Reality vs. Myth, Fantasy & Legend.

[Journeyman 0]

I am currently playing Thief 3 Deadly Shadows and am quite enjoying its atmospheric medieval setting.  But like with so many RPG/FPS games of this genre I get annoyed at how developers always have to ruin the immersion by introducing Myth, Magic and most of all historical inaccuracies.

OK this game was never meant to be a history lesson but in my view I think it is a shame! Just looking at the detail that has been put in to recreating those medieval cobbled streets, the clothes of civilians and guards, weapons etc. It feels very historical. Then they go and spoil it by having flickering electric streetlights alongside street torchlights and totally stupid things like medieval elevators operated by push buttons! …FFS!

Wouldn’t it be a great way to learn history and understand how our ancestors lived if games like this would just stick to historical facts or at least think before sticking things like elevators & electric lights along side torch lights and candles in a period that we know was pre electric?

Then we have to have the silly mythical monsters, magic spells and of course the fucking zombies!!  Brilliant! Lets bring on the Incredible Hulk while were at it! Oh and yes of course we need Werewolves and Vampires don’t we?

I must admit I’m still enjoying the game but only because it has that ‘sneak em up’ atmosphere that I love in these kind of games. I played the IGI games and loved them too. But It would be nice to have a factual historical game of the same genre.

The same thing happened with Far Cry too! And I read so many peoples complaints about this so I know I am not alone! In this case it was utterly ridiculous monsters, which totally killed the game for me and after such a brilliant first few (monster free) missions. If I ever buy Crysis it will be to see the graphical effects only!

My main gripe though is with historical games. It seems just such a brilliant opportunity to replay history from a FPS point of view so why go and spoil it with silly historical inaccuracies and myth, magic & silly fucking monsters?  …The Un Dead! … Gimme a break!!  

Any one else think like this, or am I just fantasy killing reality freak?    

[5133p39 16]

I agree completely.

I would be VERY happy to see a game with realistic historical setting - whether it will be more RPG-like, or FPS-like, i don't care, i am just too sick of all that "magicka" bullshit, and silly monsters.

But i really doubt someone will make a game like this, i think there aren't much people who wants that sort of a game.

It seems to me like everybody wants just an eye candy, and that would be hard to give them without those "great" magical effects.

[Messiah 2]

i agree about far cry - i played the demo endlessly, and loved it, only to read about mad experimental monsters... i never bothered buying it after that... i bought Doom3 because i was in the mood for a bit of running around shooting spawn of hell monsters... but when a game decides that 'oooh, whats missing here is a zombie or two' then i switch off.

[Donnervogel 0]

Oh come on. If you had followed the story a bit you would know they didn't stick the electrical stuff and elevators in there "without thinking". The whole thing is greatly elaborated. Play Thief 2 if you want to know even more.

And it IS a fantasy world after all. That's what the story is and has always been from Thief 1 on. Or do you complain too that there are Wizzards and Orcs in Lord of the Rings? Besides I might add the Thief series is a great and original story and the only one ruining immersion is yourself by getting pointlessly annoyed about things that don't match up with your unfounded expectations. Just open up a bit. The Mental Asylum "mission" is going to freak you out. In a good way. That's got to be the scariest "mission" I ever played in a computer game. And it would be simply boring if it was "realistic".

[VictorTroska 0]

Oh come on. If you had followed the story a bit you would know they didn't stick the electrical stuff and elevators in there "without thinking". The whole thing is greatly elaborated. Play Thief 2 if you want to know even more.

And it IS a fantasy world after all. That's what the story is and has always been from Thief 1 on. Or do you complain too that there are Wizzards and Orcs in Lord of the Rings? Besides I might add the Thief series is a great and original story and the only one ruining immersion is yourself by getting pointlessly annoyed about things that don't match up with your unfounded expectations. Just open up a bit. The Mental Asylum "mission" is going to freak you out. In a good way. That's got to be the scariest "mission" I ever played in a computer game. And it would be simply boring if it was "realistic".

I agree 100%. Thief 1,2,3 -probably the best stealth games i ever played...great story,interactive,atmosphere...dark age,sometimes scary....

[mattxr 9]

Oh come on. If you had followed the story a bit you would know they didn't stick the electrical stuff and elevators in there "without thinking". The whole thing is greatly elaborated. Play Thief 2 if you want to know even more.

And it IS a fantasy world after all. That's what the story is and has always been from Thief 1 on. Or do you complain too that there are Wizzards and Orcs in Lord of the Rings? Besides I might add the Thief series is a great and original story and the only one ruining immersion is yourself by getting pointlessly annoyed about things that don't match up with your unfounded expectations. Just open up a bit. The Mental Asylum "mission" is going to freak you out. In a good way. That's got to be the scariest "mission" I ever played in a computer game. And it would be simply boring if it was "realistic".

I agree 100%. Thief 1,2,3 -probably the best stealth games i ever played...great story,interactive,atmosphere...dark age,sometimes scary....

Bring on Neverwinter Nights 2 woowooow

[Eda Mrcoch 0]

AFAIK Mount & Blade (which has been discussed on these forums quite a lot) has no magic elements in it although the setting is a bit ahistorical. So why not make a mod for it?

[Tovarish 0]

While I agree that it would be nice to have a game like the Thief series set in a 'realistic' world, I thoroughly enjoyed Thief II: The Metal Age, for what it was. I found it to be a very refreshing mix of Medieval and Sci-fi.

Probably part of the reason I enjoyed The Dark Tower series by Stephen King so much - mix of Western, Fantasy, and Sci-Fi - How often do you see something like that?

[Journeyman 0]

Oh come on. If you had followed the story a bit you would know they didn't stick the electrical stuff and elevators in there "without thinking". The whole thing is greatly elaborated. Play Thief 2 if you want to know even more.

And it IS a fantasy world after all. That's what the story is and has always been from Thief 1 on. Or do you complain too that there are Wizzards and Orcs in Lord of the Rings? Besides I might add the Thief series is a great and original story and the only one ruining immersion is yourself by getting pointlessly annoyed about things that don't match up with your unfounded expectations. Just open up a bit. The Mental Asylum "mission" is going to freak you out. In a good way. That's got to be the scariest "mission" I ever played in a computer game. And it would be simply boring if it was "realistic".

Thanks for your contribution, but I think you're kind of missing my point. Whether Thief 1 & 2 was also a fantasy world setting is irrelevant to this argument! My point is about this kind of game in general. The name 'Thief' doesn't conjure up any Myth, Magic and fantasy in my dictionary, whereas Lord of The Rings is a known Mythical Fantasy story and if I were to buy such a game (as I did Oblivion) then I would expect this kind of content.

I for sure don't wish to offend any of you fantasy game lovers as they have their place and I have enjoyed many myself. I just wish that occasionally if a developer should go to so much trouble over historical content that they cannot go just that little step further to please reality game lovers like myself!

Like I said I am enjoying Thief 3 for what it is, and if I had been bothered enough to read up on it before I bought it I would probably have known what to expect!  

I would just like for some developers to make a game similar to this but with more credible and historically accurate content and for those that don’t to make it more obvious that it is a fantasy game!  However, I suppose that I cannot dictate a market and I’m sure to be grossly outnumbered by the majority of the gaming community in general!

As for Far Cry I was expecting a strait shooter and some of the early creatures in the game were almost acceptable within the storyline. However, the monsters just got more and more ridiculous as the game went on! Then there was ‘Return to Castle Wolfenstien’! What a great World War 2 setting and intense atmosphere of the period! What a total load of stupid and ridiculous zombies and creatures! … But then again I guess that bes just I!

[D.murphy man 0]

Although i have nothing against the fantasy settings in games one thing i really find a shame is the MMORPG market. Why oh why does every developer automaticly have to make an MMORPG in a fantasy setting?!

Of course theres one or two exceptations (planet side, auto assualt, star wars, EVE) but theres so much more intresting settings that would be perfect for an MMORPG/FPS/etc.. such as post nuclear style world (Fallout Online would rock!, post zombie apocalypse (Id LOVE a game like this, scavaging, fighting other survivors, barricading buildings with a few clan mates, fighting off hordes of zombies!, Sci-fi (already been vaugly touched upon by the MMO market) , and even modern/1930's style crime mafia game would be cool.

[Messiah 2]

to be honest you have to remember that RTCW was following on from the original wolfenstein, that had those bizare creatures etc.... it would be like removing the pinkys from Doom 3

[Journeyman 0]

to be honest you have to remember that RTCW was following on from the original wolfenstein, that had those bizare creatures etc.... it would be like removing the pinkys from Doom 3

Yep! Point taken! ... Like with Thief 3 I did not play the previous versions to get the background! However, I think you get the general drift of my gripe!  

... I'm just waiting for someone to say: "don't buy a game if you don't know what it is all about in the first place!"     The problem is there isn't that much choice and we have to take what there is!  

[XCess 0]

I much prefer fighting humans than monsters,, especially if they have just been chucked in for the hell of it. The worst part is when a monstr can take 5 swipes of a sword, or 4 bullets with no visible effects

[kegetys 2]

One of the great things in Thief was the surreal game world. It's not, and never was a medieval setting, but a sci-fi/fantasy steampunk world. I found it to do an excelent job in creating atmosphere, and all the things in it were interesting and well thought out and it worked great for the game. If you really want to experience thief yout should play the first part, Thief 2 and Thief 2x. Deadly shadows while still and ok game lacks alot of the things that made the originals so great (imo).

[Donnervogel 0]

Thanks for your contribution, but I think you're kind of missing my point. Whether Thief 1 & 2 was also a fantasy world setting is irrelevant to this argument! My point is about this kind of game in general. The name 'Thief' doesn't conjure up any Myth, Magic and fantasy in my dictionary, whereas Lord of The Rings is a known Mythical Fantasy story and if I were to buy such a game (as I did Oblivion) then I would expect this kind of content.

Well my point was specifically aimed at the fact that Thief is a well known series set in a pseudo-medieval-fantasy-sci-fi world. Thus everybody knowing the series would expect such a game. And even if you don't. The Lord Of the Rings doesn't imply any fantasy either just from the name - as far as I'm concerned it could be about a noble goldsmith making nice jewelery. You've got to have some knowledge about what it is to imply that it's a fantasy story. Same with Thief.

Quote[/b] ]I for sure don't wish to offend any of you fantasy game lovers as they have their place and I have enjoyed many myself. I just wish that occasionally if a developer should go to so much trouble over historical content that they cannot go just that little step further to please reality game lovers like myself!

Well the Thief devs went through a great deal of trouble to recreate the Thief world and that's what they did. There isn't much historical accuracy. You could mention tons of things that are historically inaccurate if you imply it to represent the Medieval times in Europe. (Houses, Fashion, Swerer Systems, Roads, City Sizes, Lock picking/locks etc) . If you remove the fantasy and sci-fi elements you're not gonna have much left except some cliché movie style middle ages scenery that is not like most of the real middle ages were.

But I get your point that you'd like a historically accurate game for a change and it would be interesting to see if that would offer much entertainment (personally I'm sceptical). Just don't expect it in something like Thief. Such a game would have a totally different look. Of course it would also depend on the setting of the game, especially what exact time it would be set in. For example there weren't many locks to pick in the middle ages in europe. Only very few primitive lock constructions survived into the early middle ages from the ancient times where locks were well known. Most locking mechanims were much more primitive though and real locks (to use with keys) were a privilege of the rich - even though even many rich people did not have access to them. Locks started coming back again in the late middle ages and the Renaissance when they got rediscovered by studying ancient techniques but it took time until the 18th century until the first new lock design was invented wich eventually led to modern locks.

[ebns72 0]

For how overused the medieval time period is in games, I am so surprised we have yet to see one accurate depiction of the period.

It kind of saddens me in a way how medieval times are always depicted as whimsical, beautiful, and magical.

I would personally prefer a game that brings out the grittiness and rawness of the period any day. The war, disease, absolutely atrocious living conditions, people dumping waste into the streets, thelack of education, corruption, etc. of the period have yet to be seen in a game.

One new game that looks promising as a step in the right direction however is assasin's creed, which takes place during the crusades. It looks quite interesting

[Journeyman 0]

One of the great things in Thief was the surreal game world. It's not, and never was a medieval setting, but a sci-fi/fantasy steampunk world. I found it to do an excelent job in creating atmosphere, and all the things in it were interesting and well thought out and it worked great for the game. If you really want to experience thief yout should play the first part, Thief 2 and Thief 2x. Deadly shadows while still and ok game lacks alot of the things that made the originals so great (imo).

... Hmmm... How many clues do you need? The period dress, period weaponry, period buildings even a rather poor attempt at period pre Shakespeare English! You might as well say that Wolfenstien was not set in WW2!  

Quote[/b] ]For how overused the medieval time period is in games, I am so surprised we have yet to see one accurate depiction of the period.

It kind of saddens me in a way how medieval times are always depicted as whimsical, beautiful, and magical.

I would personally prefer a game that brings out the grittiness and rawness of the period any day. The war, disease, absolutely atrocious living conditions, people dumping waste into the streets, thelack of education, corruption, etc. of the period have yet to be seen in a game.

One new game that looks promising as a step in the right direction however is assasin's creed, which takes place during the crusades. It looks quite interesting  

... My point exactly! ... I will keep an eye out for Assassins Creed!

Quote[/b] ]If you remove the fantasy and sci-fi elements you're not gonna have much left except some cliché movie style middle ages scenery that is not like most of the real middle ages were.

... Disagree! The later Middle Ages was a very eventful period and would do well to be told to the innocent masses!  

[Blake 0]

I think you can in some instances combine magical elements and the realities of middle ages/dark ages, this worked very well for instance in 80s TV series 'Robin of Sherwood'. Recent HBO's Rome is also refreshing look into ancient history and era, just to stray away a bit from the topic.

Games in the other hand have mostly been too glossy about middle ages and history in general, maybe it's due to the fact that graphics-wise it's easier to create smooth stuff without grit, dirt etc. attention to detail. But main reason of course is too shallow view of history which is usually represented by overwhelming amounts of polish-perfect plate mails, swords and helmets lying around which IRL were very rare and coveted commodity.

Games which have a certain good grip of the subject include the Thief-series up to a point. Strategy game Crusader Kings is perhaps the best representation in general on how feudal system, vassals, iheritence, kingdoms, and religion interact. On more secular side there is also everything from plagues, intestine worms, lustful sexual habits, chastities and insanities that characters can 'gain' during the course of the game. But I still forecast that mainstream polished view of the past and perhaps present is not changing in mainstream games.

[kegetys 2]

... Hmmm... How many clues do you need? The period dress, period weaponry, period buildings even a rather poor attempt at period pre Shakespeare English!

Well, if you had started the game from the beginning instead of part three it would most likely have been immediately apparent that it's not a medieval setting (The main menu already has some "strange" machinery on it).

[Journeyman 0]

... Hmmm... How many clues do you need? The period dress, period weaponry, period buildings even a rather poor attempt at period pre Shakespeare English!

Well, if you had started the game from the beginning instead of part three it would most likely have been immediately apparent that it's not a medieval setting (The main menu already has some "strange" machinery on it).

... Do I hear the sounds of someone digging themselves out of a hole?    Sure I do not know the full story of the Thief series, but even so it is still pretty apparent that the theme is that of a medieval setting. Every game is based in a period otherwise why bother with all the dress, scenery, speech dialects etc.

Also I am not knocking thief as a bad game as I am enjoying it for what it is and the atmosphere it creates is awesome and definitely feels, as it should - deeply historical even though obviously pumped up with mythology.

I just feel that there is a big opportunity missed here as there can be no better way to re-tell history than to put the player right into a period and force him to live and survive that era in a realistic RPG/FPS game such as this.

Hmmm.... Who knows a developer some day will do a series just like this!  

[Donnervogel 0]

The only one digging himself out of a hole is you.

You should read my postings again. I went a long way explaining that Thief is a totally inaccurate representation of medieval Europe. To put it simple. It is not "realistic". By far not. And it is not meant to be, as it is meant to represent the Thief world. But I also see you didn't really bother reading it correctly as you refered to one of my quotes in totally wrong context above.

If you want a "deeply historical" feel then read a history book to start with. At least it could tell you what to expect from Medieval Europe and when to expect wich style/fashion at what time and wich level of infrastructure/technology and what kind of social structure and population density in what places etc.

You would come to the conclusion that Thief without the Fantasy elements is a setting that never ever existed on this planet like that. It mixes up different eras/fashion/social models (from ancient Mediterranean to Modern Europe) and different places/culture/fashion (From the Caribbean to Asia) In other words... it's a Fantasy world.

[Journeyman 0]

The only one digging himself out of a hole is you.

You should read my postings again. I went a long way explaining that Thief is a totally inaccurate representation of medieval Europe. To put it simple. It is not "realistic". By far not. And it is not meant to be, as it is meant to represent the Thief world. But I also see you didn't really bother reading it correctly as you refered to one of my quotes in totally wrong context above.

If you want a "deeply historical" feel then read a history book to start with. At least it could tell you what to expect from Medieval Europe and when to expect wich style/fashion at what time and wich level of infrastructure/technology and what kind of social structure and population density in what places etc.

You would come to the conclusion that Thief without the Fantasy elements is a setting that never ever existed on this planet like that. It mixes up different eras/fashion/social models (from ancient Mediterranean to Modern Europe) and different places/culture/fashion (From the Caribbean to Asia) In other words... it's a Fantasy world.

How about reading my first post properly? I started this thread to see whether my views on having more realistic historical games rather than myth and fantasy ones were an interest to others other than myself. … I'll count you out shall I?  

As for reading books I've done plenty of that but fail to see what place it has in this debate for sure!  

[Donnervogel 0]

You keep making in hard, don't you?

I told you I got you general point about realistic games but also I tell you for about the third time I was referring to your criticism on the Thief series in my postings. And you keep mentioning the Thief series as a specific example so stop acting as if you didn't. If you apply your points to specific examples you have to live with it that other people will refer to them too.

[xawery 0]

The specific example of Thief, Oblivion and similar games aside, I think Red Kite has a good point in saying that nearly all games/books/films set in a (pseudo)medieval period simply MUST contain vast amounts of magic in all forms and shapes, at the cost of accurately representing the period. Why? The medieval age/renaissance have so much to offer on their own! By this I don't mean that every game/book/film based on the middle ages should mirror Europe of that time in every respect, but things like the plague, religious intolerance, the feudal system etc. offer many engaging story hooks without resorting to the cliche that is magic.

I have nothing against magic and fantasy elements per se, but I see them as a spice: use too much of it, and it spoils the meal. The terms 'magic' and 'fantasy' say it all - they should be fantastic and elicit wonder in the reader/viewer. If there is an orc or half-elf l33t sorcerer on every street corner, (e.g. oblivion) what's so special about that? Nothing. It just becomes yet another mundane element of the everyday world.

In fiction, I believe George R.R. Martin has struck the perfect balance in his Song Of Ice And Fire series. The world of Westeros does contain magic and fantastic beings, but they are forgotten, other-wordly, mysterious and poorly understood. They are, in short, truly 'fantastic'. And that makes it so fun to read.

This is the reason why I enjoy Mount & Blade so much. The vanilla game is just an engine for simulating a pseudo-medieval world. Modmakers can use it to create any world they wish. Mods like the Storymod are the perfect example of what I find enjoyable: a good plot about political machinations between warring factions, with a bit of myth and wonder thrown in for good measure. Not the other way around.

So, why this rant? After all, it is just a matter of taste, isn't it? The problem (for me) is, that the cliched magical-missiles-coming-out-my-arse theme is so utterly dominant in books and films as well as games. It is becoming exceedingly hard to find a game that focuses on an engaging, realistic plot without relying solely on 'magic' and flashy spell-casting graphics. The last game that suited my taste in this regard was Fahrenheit (or The Indigo Prophecy as it is called in the US). A realistic, engaging adventure game about the human condition, with some fantasy elements which remain truly fantastic. As they should.

[kegetys 2]

Sure I do not know the full story of the Thief series, but even so it is still pretty apparent that the theme is that of a medieval setting.

No, it is not. Just go get a copy of the original Thief, or even Thief 2 (Check the

, or the

), and from the very beginning of those games it looks very little like a medieval setting (at least even a remotely realistic one).