Abrams and other modern armor vs RPG

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Aug 29/06: A General Dynamics release says that the U.S. Army has awarded General Dynamics Land Systems $45 million to produce and install 505 Tank Urban Survivability Kits (TUSK) for Abrams main battle tanks supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom. We asked GDLS how this fit with the $21.7 million Aug 10/06 contract; they replied that their announcement covers two contracts - the earlier contract for buying the material, building and kitting the gear that comprises the TUSK upgrade. The balance is for the labor associated with installing them. Which, for those of us who have taken our cars in for upgrades or repairs, seems about right.

505 Tank Urban Survivability Kits (TUSK) for Abrams main battle tanks supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom

[USSRsniper 0]

This TUSK update, top of the still looks weak   If terrorists attack there is not going to be only one RPG coming toward tank...

[Necromancer- 0]

funny that a simple fence construction provides good protection against RPG's.

Quote[/b] ]This TUSK update, top of the still looks weak

In urban environments you can attack from the top. However how are you going to do that if the enemy can see through walls with thermal vision?

[tankieboy 0]

Through walls, you sure about that?

[Messiah 2]

Through walls, you sure about that?

come on huey... we've all played Soldier of Fortune 2 havn't we?

[Necromancer- 0]

Through walls, you sure about that?

Now that you disagree... I dont.

However there is something else that could see through walls..

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39246

[chipper 0]

Great so now we have wall hackers in real life.

[Schattenlied 0]

He "referenced" a DU .50 round. But I really cant see the penetration jumping from 4 inches to 9 meters just because the round is DU.

Maybe in Eraser land where they have x-ray railguns, but not in the real world matey.

just so u know it dose work caus ive watched it happen . maby ur referring to the standard rounds used in .50 cal chainguns like the M.2. but those have like, 1/3 rd of the gunpowder in the shell as the shells used in the M82A1, and just so u know depleted uranium IS the strongest thing on the face of the earth., believe me ive seen it on the military channel, the history channel, and discovery channel, and the gun makers webstie. so close the book man, caus im right,

[Schattenlied 0]

Interesting would be to talk about what kind of weapons the Iraqis used that fires 25mm (and above) AP-DU rounds. Are RPG darts made of such material?

k umm, ya i know what the Iraqis use that fires those rounds,

BMP-2/ BMP-1. plain and simple,i think the BMP-1 uses 30mm tho, not sure

[BlackScorpion 0]

1. Edit button exists.

2. Eh? Afaik, BMP-1 only has a 73mm cannon... and if the Iraqis used steel sabots in their tanks, how the hell would they suddenly start using DU rounds in their BMPs?

3. DU is actually fairly soft, it's just very dense. There are much stronger and denser materials on Earth, but DU is pretty much the simplest solution. Although not the most environmentally friendly...

4. 1/3rd of the gunpowderin M2HBs (which aren't chain guns btw; recoil operated)? You sure? Sounds a tad... ummm... underpowered.

[Schattenlied 0]

yes the m82A1 can put a round through any tank front to back.

fine....

in this case, tell me why the tank itself is armed with a megasized cannon able to fire very heavy rounds against other tanks...and even with those super megasized guns its far from normal to fire right through a tank (modern tank)

so, mr military expert...explain to me why there is a lack of anti-tank-tanks armed with 50 cal rifles...or even 50 cal miniguns so that they could be able to take out dozens of tanks in a matter of seconds......

and why at all they would bother to have these supersized heavy weapons on the tank at all.......to look scarier?

dont worry about sources, ill take your word for it.....

and why u say? because they would have to take too carful aim take more time and im pretty sure theyed rather just shoot the damn thing wherever they want.

oh and the minigun thing wouldent work, niether would some kind of .50 cal chaingun, those things "throw" bullets. the bullets dont stay straight they tumble when fired from miniguns and chainguns, the m82a1 fires it straight allowing it to penetrate the armor, and not smack the side of it while spinning causing no damage.

[EiZei 0]

k umm, ya i know what the Iraqis use that fires those rounds,

BMP-2/ BMP-1. plain and simple,i think the BMP-1 uses 30mm tho, not sure

I recommend you start reading more books and play less silly videogames if you plan on making more statements like..

Quote[/b] ]

so close the book man, caus im right,

[dm 9]

He "referenced" a DU .50 round. But I really cant see the penetration jumping from 4 inches to 9 meters just because the round is DU.

Maybe in Eraser land where they have x-ray railguns, but not in the real world matey.

just so u know it dose work caus ive watched it happen . maby ur referring to the standard rounds used in .50 cal chainguns like the M.2. but those have like, 1/3 rd of the gunpowder in the shell as the shells used in the M82A1, and just so u know depleted uranium IS the strongest thing on the face of the earth., believe me ive seen it on the military channel, the history channel, and discovery channel, and the gun makers webstie. so close the book man, caus im right,

Ah, so not a google expert, but a cable TV expert. Even better...

Ok, DU. Just because America uses it doesnt mean its the bestest ammo in all the world.

As has been said, DU is actually fairly soft, but incredibly dense. The main reason America (and most other countries which use it) use it is because it is a relatively cheap byproduct of the nuclear power industry.

If you want the BEST SABOT projectile, use Tungsten Carbide, like ze Germans do. (And I believe the Russians MAY too) Its not only denser, but its much harder as well. TC provides even greater penetration than DU.

As for the amount of propellant in the round. The M82 Barret uses the SAME 12.7 x 99mm ammo as the M2HB. So thats a non starter.

Simply put, the .50 round fired from an M82 simply doesnt have either the density OR the KE required to penetrate more than ~10CENTImeters of armour, let alone 9 meters of the stuff...

[USSRsniper 0]

Heh SLAT armor, i remember when i was kid playing with LEGOS and making futuristic armored vehicle, with stuff close to SLAT    Its quet simple construction that even some kids had in mind lol   I just see it funny seeing stuff now, that before i though would be futuristic   About .50 cal from M82... it doesn not matter which matereal it is, it will never penetrate M1 Abrams, if even  Sabot round travel much faster, anc still can't completely penetrate M1 Abrams....

Hmm also found interesting ifo, never knew sbout those rounds.... http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/slap.htm tungsten metal is used there.... even if this could be used for M82 it would never penetrate Abrams.. Schattenlied if you say sniper rifle can penetrate abrams completely while even 30mm DU round can't do it...

[somebloke 0]

the history channel, and discovery channel, and the gun makers webstie. so close the book man, caus im right,

So you base your argument on several documentries. Made by the same TV company, which was also payed to make the documentries by the gun makers. Saying how good the weapon is?

[scary 0]

yes the m82A1 can put a round through any tank front to back,

Before considering the material properties of dU ammunition, of which you are clearly ignorant, for a ~70g round travelling at 854m/s on muzzle exit to penetrate 9 metres of tank would require some serious re-writing of the laws of physics. For it to be possible the muzzle velocity would have to be increased substantially - we're talking tens of thousands m/s - and the recoil be restricted enough for a human to control it - perhaps by the use of a 70tn counterweight or bolting the rifle to the bedrock.

I'll come back to the dU issue later.

Quote[/b] ]and i didnt learn this shit from websites alright, i didnt study this shit from websites, ive studyed the actual specs of basically everything that every military uses, from U.S miltary documents, not internet bullshit

Aside from the fact that the US military do not have 'the actual specs of basically everything that every military uses', if you genuinely had access to such sensitive documents you would not be advertising it or their contents on the Internet. Of course, to gain that kind of access would require a certain level of lexical adeptness you seem to be lacking.

Quote[/b] ]just so u know it dose work caus ive watched it happen . maby ur referring to the standard rounds used in .50 cal chainguns like the M.2. but those have like, 1/3 rd of the gunpowder in the shell as the shells used in the M82A1,

Gunpowder? You call yourself an expert but think gunpowder is used as a propellant. Not in this century. Unless the US is fielding an M82 Flintlock. You also appear to not know what a chaingun is.

Quote[/b] ]and just so u know depleted uranium IS the strongest thing on the face of the earth.,

Tensile, compressive or shear/torsional strength? Actually there is no need to answer, it's not the strongest thing on the face of the Earth in any way.

DU, or for the pedants, staballoy, is used because it is dense, self-sharpening, cheap, east to cast and pyrophoric.

When a dU round impacts a hard object it fractures. By the time it has penetrated the object it has disintegrated to dust, at which point its pyrophoric properties cause it to explode and ignite.

So even given high enough KE - which the M82 isn't capable of providing - a dU round, by design, can only penetrate one layer of armour. TC, however, is not pyrophoric and can penetrate more than one layer.

Quote[/b] ]believe me ive seen it on the military channel, the history channel, and discovery channel, and the gun makers webstie. so close the book man, caus im right,

Well that's everyone put in their place, never mind all the military experience and research among the forum members, you've got cable.

Quote[/b] ]and why u say? because they would have to take too carful aim take more time and im pretty sure theyed rather just shoot the damn thing wherever they want.

So you are saying it's nothing to do with the increased KE then.

Quote[/b] ]oh and the minigun thing wouldent work, niether would some kind of .50 cal chaingun, those things "throw" bullets. the bullets dont stay straight they tumble when fired from miniguns and chainguns, the m82a1 fires it straight allowing it to penetrate the armor, and not smack the side of it while spinning causing no damage.

You still appear to not know what a chaingun is, nor do you show any understanding of ballistics.

Perhaps you should pay more attention next time you are watching Battleplan, and don't presume to be knowledgeable never mind an expert.

[chipper 0]

Schattenlied just accept the fact that your not always right.

[ran 0]

Scary, I love you well, not in the litteral sense, but you get it

[Jezz 0]

3BM48(russian apfsds) is tungsten carbide i bleive

some pics

bradly hit by rpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....8gh.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....2ew.jpg

m1 hit by maverick

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/d36857dw.jpg

m1 hits by rpg i think

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....3eo.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....3bm.jpg

m1 hit by ied i think

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/d61564gb.jpg

m1 hit by ?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/d51548lm.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....3px.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....100.jpg

[*Pete* 0]

oh and the minigun thing wouldent work, niether would some kind of .50 cal chaingun, those things "throw" bullets. the bullets dont stay straight they tumble when fired from miniguns and chainguns, the m82a1 fires it straight allowing it to penetrate the armor, and not smack the side of it while spinning causing no damage.

I know what makes a bullet fly straight, and why it doesnt tumble, i also know that the bullet from a simple ak47 wont tumble...even if you fire it on full auto.

the "mechanism" that makes the bullet fly "straight" is very very simple, do you know what it is?

and if you do know...please explain to the rest of us why it wouldnt work on the "bullet-throwing"   miniguns, chainguns and such...

oh...and tanks also use the same "mechanism" for their rounds.

so does artillery cannons.

if you dont know what makes a bullet fly straight, just ask me and ill educate you.

edit:..i cant resist, but to give you a hint. "this is my gun, and this is my *****"

[martinovic 0]

The idea of a bullet penetrating an MBT is absurd. Maybe if they were made of aggregated diamond nanorods or something, but... no metal bullet's going through an abrams.

[wildo 0]

oh and the minigun thing wouldent work, niether would some kind of .50 cal chaingun, those things "throw" bullets. the bullets dont stay straight they tumble when fired from miniguns and chainguns, the m82a1 fires it straight allowing it to penetrate the armor, and not smack the side of it while spinning causing no damage.

I know what makes a bullet fly straight, and why it doesnt tumble, i also know that the bullet from a simple ak47 wont tumble...even if you fire it on full auto.

the "mechanism" that makes the bullet fly "straight" is very very simple, do you know what it is?

and if you do know...please explain to the rest of us why it wouldnt work on the "bullet-throwing"   miniguns, chainguns and such...

oh...and tanks also use the same "mechanism" for their rounds.

so does artillery cannons.

if you dont know what makes a bullet fly straight, just ask me and ill educate you.

edit:..i cant resist, but to give you a hint. "this is my gun, and this is my *****"

Now I have little to no knowledge at all of ballistics, but ill take a wild guess at it

Is it something to do with boreing?

The the barrel of the gun having the little "things" (Urm... hard to explain... well from me atleast!

But am I right or wrong?

Wildo

[sniperuk02 0]

I would have said rifling but some tanks dont use rifled guns.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Smothbore use fin stabalised sabot to impart spin like a dart. AFAIK

Jezz your picture

http://img.photobucket.com/albums....3bm.jpg

Is rather worying as that apears to be armor on the frontal ark of an Abrams Turret. I presume this is the so called gold shot that is mentioned in other posts in the forum.

There is obvious splash on the other hits. This one seems concentrated. Angle that it hit at the so called lucky shot or a different round.

Kind Regards Walker

[Baff2 0]

m1 hit by maverick

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v492/nakamura_kenji/d36857dw.jpg[/url]

My guess, (and it is a guess), is that is a sabot hole. Shot from friendly tanks before the tank was abandoned during a thunder run. I don't think they like to leave their technology behind.

There are no blast stains that I would normally associate with a chemical reaction, the bore holes are very even and large, the holes are in the sides, not on the top. A sabot is fired from ground level, a Maverick from above.

I think the culprit for disabling this tank in the first place turns out to be a lowly AK47 round to the radiator grill. The engine overheats and bursts into flames and the crew evacuates in the middle of hostile ground. The rest of the column all have a good laugh shooting it up, and it is recovered sometime later after the area is pacified.