Community: LOOK AT YOURSELVES!

[tkokid 0]

During the past month, there have been three things that made the blood rise to people's heads and nearly led to a protest march to prague. Though these are my personal takings on it, please try to read and understand that what you see can be taken multiple ways!

ive herd of people with really big stiks and stuff goin down to prague and and using placebo as a misile

[kernriver 4]

I don't understand why character switching is such a big problem? Like ofpforum said, you can play ArmA like it was OFP, just load last saved game if you die, or start the mission from the beggining. IMO this feature is there to attract new players so they don't get intimidated right away and leave before they realise what a great game it is. I think the more features the better, under one condition: if you DON'T HAVE to use them. Every game needs to evolve, so does OFP. OFP veterans like us will adjust and play the game the way it "should" be played, and newcomers can play any way they see fit.

[Ukraineboy 0]

In OFP:

Uh-oh, gotta find some ruskies with AT weapons or explosives. I guess it's going to be a lot thougher mission now.

Thats what ruined OFP. Int he missions you were like James Bond. ArmA should be about squad level combat with realistic use of firepower, manuever etc. Not about "Okay AI...uhh, stay here and shoot while I go win by myself". Thats why I only played through the campaign once, and it sucked because it was filled with dumb crap like that. Like satchel charges. Oh Im gonna go charge a tank, all by myself and throw a satchel on it...

[mr reality 0]

Thats what ruined OFP. Int he missions you were like James Bond. ArmA should be about squad level combat with realistic use of firepower, manuever etc. Not about "Okay AI...uhh, stay here and shoot while I go win by myself". Thats why I only played through the campaign once, and it sucked because it was filled with dumb crap like that. Like satchel charges. Oh Im gonna go charge a tank, all by myself and throw a satchel on it...

Well correct me if i'm wrong but wont ArmAs be exaclty like that except instead of using one soldier in a mission you can use three differant soldiers at any time of the mission. So now instead of trying to find that AT weapon all by yourself in the field of battle you now just have to switch to the tank gunner and hey-presto the tank is dead, now i'll just switch back to my squad soldier coz i've got rid of that peskie tank. IMHO this is a dumbing down aspect of a great genre and like i've mentioned already it's a scenario where you can be multiple soldiers in one mission. That just plain sucks. one of the reasons this game didn't go down too well was the ease with which you could die and the lack of save games meant the use of tactical awarness in the mission was needed. Having more auto saves and the switching when your character dies is the result of that. Being given the choice to switch is not the issue, it's the fact the devs have put it in in the first place which leads to more FPS fans buying this game-which as i believe is an obvious step to sell more copies. Unfortunalty-trying to appeal to the masses only ends up with dissatisfied die-hard fans.

That being said we'll have to wait and see the final product.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

In OFP:

Uh-oh, gotta find some ruskies with AT weapons or explosives. I guess it's going to be a lot thougher mission now.

Thats what ruined OFP.

For you, OFP was ruined because BIS put you in a realistic situation and gave complete control of decision making to you? I'm sorry to hear that, would you prefer to have the game do all the decision making for you, or possibly do everything on its own while you just sit there and watch? When you're alone (as is the case throughout most of the CWC compaign), you don't have the luxury of calling in air support or having allies help you out - instead you have the option to do several other things, such as: fight - head on, or tactically, where you choose when, who, and where; hide - run away, hide behind a tree and cry, or keep your head down and sneak out of danger; or die.

OFP neither denied nor forced upon you any of these choices, it's a shame you never came to realize that what you do in these situations reflects how you would act in real life - I would say that's an extreme amount of realism; putting you in the shoes of an ordinary character where you make decisions and the game responds with consequences, and you are just one figure in a massive, living world. It may take place in a false environment, but your decisions are real, and they effect what comes of your playing experience.

Even so, I see no problems wether or not ArmA has character switching or not. If it does; that's good, another engine limitation that can be scratched off the list, and if not; still good, one less thing to worry about when playing missions.

Let's keep in mind that ArmA is unreleased, it's WIP, it's a game, and BIS is doing what they can with the time and materials they have. These people have already established their competence with OFP, and they're ordinary people; not superheros.

[CsonkaPityu 0]

Thats what ruined OFP. In the missions you were like James Bond. ArmA should be about squad level combat with realistic use of firepower, manuever etc. Not about "Okay AI...uhh, stay here and shoot while I go win by myself". Thats why I only played through the campaign once, and it sucked because it was filled with dumb crap like that.

Haha, come on now. Your "James Bond" is basically a normal human without fear, you can't make someone fear for his life in a comp game.

Quote[/b] ]Like satchel charges. Oh Im gonna go charge a tank, all by myself and throw a satchel on it...

You need a lot less to kill a tank then a huge satchel charge. Chechnya was a big mess for russian tanks. The people inside a tank can't see much of the outside world in real life, that's why they don't go alone anywhere where there is a chance that infantry might get too close.

Tanks aren't exactly invulnerable to infantry, quite the opposite. Nowadays AT weapons are so good that tanks are pretty vulnerable to infantry in the right terrain. Tanks are good support for infantry and they can withstand nukes thats why they are still around.

[AfrographX 0]

Tanks can withstand nukes?

[mr reality 0]

Tanks can withstand nukes?

I think he's refering to the fall-out period rather than the actual blast and shock wave as that would turn a tank into a coke can.

[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

A soldier in a full run in combat may have adrenaline coursing through his veins and tunnel vision. Everything he sees is moving, because he is moving, so he may not notice a soldier who is not moving. The non-moving soldier would notice the running soldier because nothing he is watching is moving but the running soldier.

I once hid underneath a Charlie Brown Christmas tree with nothing but 3-color Desert BDU's, a pair of 3-D camo trousers (like ghillie pants, sort of), a pair of green Israeli scout boots, a paintball mask and a glossy green softball helmet. My opponent, and experienced hunter, walked right by me without seeing me, even though he looked right at me when I stirred. He was no more than 15 feet away.

OFP A.I. does a fine enough job of noticing the enemy. It is very true that soldiers often do not notice the camo'd enemy until it is too late.

[klasodeth 0]

...Having more auto saves and the switching when your character dies is the result of that...

How do you know that it will be possible to switch characters when the player gets the current character killed off?  It's completely possible to have character switching, yet still give the player only "one life" during a mission.

Like the Rainbow 6 games, Operation Flashpoint allows the player to control a squad of soldiers.  However, unlike the Rainbow 6 games, Operation Flashpoint does not switch to the next available soldier in the squad when the player gets the current character killed.

It is amazing that people gush over Operation Flashpoint because of its unique emphasis on realism, then turn around and accuse BIS of attempting to make a Battlefield 2 clone out of Armed Assault.  BIS is in the business of making military simulators, and they didn't dumb down Operatron Flashpoint when it went to console.  If they were going to make a game to appeal to the arcade crowd, they would have done that with Operation Flashpoint: Elite for the XBox.  But they didn't.  And even now I don't see them making two totally separate products.  They obviously can't dumb down Virtual Battlespace 2, since it's intended as a military simulation.  So why would they go through the extra work to make an arcadey game when it would be so much easier for them to stay true to their simulation roots and borrow from the work that's been done there?

[mr reality 0]

I'm pretty sure i've read that when your character gets killed you will jump into the body of the next soldier in your squad.

i can't remember where i read that but i'm 90% sure i'm correct.

[Guest Ti0n3r]

Yupp, I read the same thing. From the WW2EC preview.

[hardrock 1]

I'm pretty sure i've read that when your character gets killed you will jump into the body of the next soldier in your squad.

i can't remember where i read that but i'm 90% sure i'm correct.

But only if the next character in your squad is set to "playable". If you have only one "player" character ingame, you can only play this one and die, when he dies.

As said a couple of time, everything is to be set by the mission editor. You can do exactly the same missions that we have now in Armed Assault, BIS just gives you the opportunity to include the character switching thingie if you want to.

[mr reality 0]

This is a direct quote from the review.

Quote[/b] ]This is where another new feature comes into play. In the original OFP death would mean the end of the mission. ArmA, on the other hand, takes the death cam around to the next in command and you enter his boots to continue the battle. This is something any Rainbow Six player should be familiar with.

The "playable" character is for switching soldiers, not the soldier you jump into upon your death.

[Journeyman 0]

respawn=group ...Same as in OFP only now available in SP too! If it is now default in the campaign then their are two options if you don't wanna respawn:

1) When you die and respawn go back and start again!

2) Wait for a mod that removes the default respawn!

I don't see the problem! You have a choice. Thats a bonus not a minus surely.  

[mr reality 0]

I don't see the problem! You have a choice. Thats a bonus not a minus surely.  

Having choices is not always a good thing. What made this community great is the loyalty to the original game and the fan base respected the fact you could die in a missioin very easily if you didn't use your head. A lot of gamers were put off by this aspect of OFP which inturn lead to a more concrete community as we all strived for the same things. Now with the implementation of no actual penalty for death while in a mission (unless you get the whole squad wiped out) the fan base will have gamers of a differant ilk...ala BF2...

It was stated that ArmAs will be more realistic than OFP but only in the way a weapon recoils and some other things i forget-but having switching and jumping into the next soldier upon death is NOT realistic. This is where my concerns lie.

[Journeyman 0]

Are you telling me that the hardcore gamers will leave BIS now because of this? I don't think so! The hardcore die hard gammers that love OFP for it's unforgiveness will simply play ArmA the way they want to play it, either through disciplin or through its modability.  

Bis on the other hand will benefit from the extra appeal as will all gammers that enjoy playing games that are more forgiving!

What was the title of this thread..........?  

[codarl 1]

Character switching does not mean every BF2/CS:s player will jump on this game , remember there's still little to no cheating, you can still just take a bullet or two if you're lucky, and there's no jumping/ run-and-run-ing .

Plus, playing singleplayer the BF2 gamers wont annoy you, and in multiplayer you'll only play coop where you cannot switch characters, so they wont bug you either!

Also, the BF2 gamers might see the light of realism, and will worship ArmA as their new bible; don't forget OFP is like five years old, and many "new gamers" haven't heard from it. last week a topic appeared in general: "I just got ofp:resistance", five years after the game got out I tell you! ArmA will be the OFP we all love.

Oh, btw.. how'd you like it to be able to switch characters with any of five positions in a B27 addon? or toggle between twelve turrents on a battleship?

[mr reality 0]

Are you telling me that the hardcore gamers will leave BIS now because of this?

Deffinatley not, but we will see a change in these forums as the game will bring in the FPS crowd. I'm probably over-reacting but after the Oblivion fiasco i can see where this game maybe heading. I suppose i'll find it had to let go of OFP...it's one of a kind.

Oh, btw..  how'd you like it to be able to switch characters with any of five positions in a B27 addon?  or toggle between twelve turrents on a battleship?

When i played B17 Flying fortress i stayed as the top turret gunner throughout a mission, sometimes i would be the tail gunner or a side gunner but i never flew the darn thing that's for sure  

[berghoff 11]

Yay, the topic about whining turns into a whine topic also, when does the next "counter-whine" topic starts? :P

[bravo 6 0]

We need placebo! COME BACK from your lovely "holidays"

[Sturmwolf 0]

Im sure they will add an option to turn char switching in campaign on or off, because the whole community is whining bout it.

The in-squad respawn sux in SP, i want my char to be a hero,

may it be in campaign or just single player mission.

counting the kills after a mission was fine always, but having them divided into different characters who killed all those enemies woulda friggin suck.

Not just pressin K is stupid also. As soon as you have the option, you will use it, out of laziness.

Remember Oblivion, when they presented fast travel? I always said I will never use it for RPG reasons and always go on foot.

I finally fast travelled all the time.

The same here, leaving out opportunities for a better game experience is something noone will ever do.

Though, the POSSIBILITY would be nice to be built in.

Ill go play some Super Mario World now, still got 5 lives left...l8er guys.

Edit: Recalling any soldier has his own name in ofp, this would just kill the individuality and value of a single soldier.

[sirex 0]

fact of the matter is, most of the people on this forum, the one's that have waited for years for ArmA. the ones who are gagging for the game to come out. -- they'll have the biggest let down of their whole life. ArmA will never live upto that type of expectation.

personally, when the game comes out ill go "yay", install it, and have fun. - i wont be looking to see if they fixed every bug / issue that i've been tracking dayly for the last 4 years.

[scary 0]

Well correct me if i'm wrong but wont ArmAs be exaclty like that except instead of using one soldier in a mission you can use three differant soldiers at any time of the mission. So now instead of trying to find that AT weapon all by yourself in the field of battle you now just have to switch to the tank gunner and hey-presto the tank is dead, now i'll just switch back to my squad soldier coz i've got rid of that peskie tank. IMHO this is a dumbing down aspect of a great genre and like i've mentioned already it's a scenario where you can be multiple soldiers in one mission. That just plain sucks. one of the reasons this game didn't go down too well was the ease with which you could die and the lack of save games meant the use of tactical awarness in the mission was needed. Having more auto saves and the switching when your character dies is the result of that. Being given the choice to switch is not the issue, it's the fact the devs have put it in in the first place which leads to more FPS fans buying this game-which as i believe is an obvious step to sell more copies. Unfortunalty-trying to appeal to the masses only ends up with dissatisfied die-hard fans.

That being said we'll have to wait and see the final product.

Have you been looking at different screenshots and trailers to the rest of us?

The only mission plan we have seen says:

Quote[/b] ]NOTE: At a later stage you can switch to other supporting units and play as sniper or tank gunner

So, judging from the information available, no you will not be able to switch at any time of the mission, only when and if the mission designer allows you.

The only in-game footage of character switching that we have seen shows switching to units in a completely different squad on different parts of the battlefield, each with their own mission objectives to complete. Again, judging from the information available, no you will not be able to switch to the tank gunner to take out the tank that is pinning down your infantryman. You will be able to switch in order to attempt to complete the objectives of the unit you have just switched into

If you think that

Quote[/b] ]trying to find that AT weapon all by yourself in the field of battle

is even remotely realistic - and a lack of realism does seem to be your complaint - then I suggest you go to your nearest recruitment office so that someone can laugh at you. Realism would be calling in artillery, an AT squad or an airstrike, not playing Rambo.

As for everyone complaining about dumb AI: yes, you have undoubtedly seen some not very smart responses form the AI, but you have absolutely no idea what the AI settings were. All we do know is that the footage has been from early, and therefore easier, missions and that these have been demos for journalists. As BIS would like these journalists to see more than 30 seconds footage before getting killed and within the limited time that these journalists would have, it is more than likely that it is in cadet mode with more than a few idiot boxes checked. I very much doubt we have seen anywhere near the true ability of the AI.

Finally, a point that obviously cannot be made enough, it is still work in progress.

Now, can we please stop the brewing elitism inherent in statements such as:

Quote[/b] ]Unfortunalty-trying to appeal to the masses only ends up with dissatisfied die-hard fans.

and get back to enjoying what, in reality, is only a fricking game.

[mr reality 0]

and get back to enjoying what, in reality, is only a fricking game.

Yes it is only a freakin game but OFP is unlike any that are on the shelves at this present time. The way this game is heading it's becoming one of those of the shelf games. Thats just how i see it that's all...

Oh and i visited the recruitment office over 15 years ago and i served in the Britsh armed forces so don't tell me i don't know what realism is...

The point i suggested that will make OFP the same as ArmAs was the fact when your AT squad mate gets shot you still have to get his AT weapon. Nothing to do with visuals that we've seen in the videos..

Refering to the statement about taking the AT weapon was because the AI wont get it so you have to. If in a squad the MG soldier is killed a rifleman has to pick the MG up so you have your suppressive fire ability-the same goes for the AT weapon.