RKSL OFP to ArmA

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

This is a bit of an epic post so get comfortable

RKSL now and in the Future.

Since I haven’t post anything RKSL related for a while I thought I’d close the old thread and start a new one with all the latest information. A lot has been going on behind closed doors at RKSL.

Rather than release less than perfect/inaccurate addons we’ve been looking at making them something “special†and providing new features and increasing their practical uses as well as the accuracy of the way they work. As a result of this I’ve taken the decision to cull some of the stagnant projects and re-prioritise the existing ones:

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Current OFP Projects (In Priority order)</span>

1 - Harrier GR7

2 - Rapier FSC SAM System

3 - Rapier FSB SAM System. (inc Landrover 101FC)

4 - RKSL/DKM C-130 Hercules

5 - SA-2 “Guideline†SAM with “Fansong E†Radar

6 - SA-5 “Gammon†with “Square Pair†& “Bar Lock†Radar

7 - Skyguard GDF005 AAA, ASPIDE SAM (+ AN-TPS-59 Radar)

8 - SA-6 (KUB) with Straight Flush & Long Track Radar Vehicles.

9 – Nimrod MR2 – armed with CoC Torpedoes

10 – BAC TSR2

11 – L96 & L115 Sniper Rifles

Depending on the release date of Armed Assault the following may be released for OFP too but no promises.

A – Tornado F3

B – Tornado GR4/4A

C – EuroFighter Typhoon

D – Jaguar GR3

E – JCA (Joint Combat Aircraft) aka F-35B JSF

F – IL-76/78 Candid/Midas Tanker Transport

G – C-17 Globemaster III

H – Nimrod MR4 – armed with Harpoon (scripted) SSM

I – Boeing XF/A-32 JSF – VTOL/CTOL/CV Versions

J – BAe Hawk T1 & 128

Some projects have been put “ON HOLD†until Armed Assault due to various reasons ranging from lack of textures to scripting.

a – E-3D AWACS – held until a practical script system is developed.

b – B-2A Spirit – Held until a fix for the “Dive bombing†issue is found.

c – Predator A UAV – Held until a practical control system can be developed.

Various other side projects are also on hold or have been cancelled. “SOME†models may be publicly released as they are now for anyone to use providing credits are given.

If it’s not in the list above you can safely assumed it has been cancelled for OFP due to the workload. Although it may get resurrected for ArmA at a later date.

More Detailed Updates:

Harrier GR7/9 – 80% - We are now nearing the last phases of script development. UNN has done miraculous things to produce a working and practical S/TOVL system for the Harrier. We can now hover, rotate, vector nozzles even reverse all controlled by key presses. The scripts are fully integrated into the addon itself and requires no external scripts, triggers or game logics.

As I said the system is still in development and hasn’t been fully MP tested on a dedicated server as yet but UNN has worked very hard to ensure the scripts should be MP compatible.

I’m currently working on optimising the textures and implementing all the cockpit aids where practical. Features include:

- Digital Speed

- Compass

- Digital Altimeter

- VSI

- Terrain Following Guide

- GRID Co-ords

- Speed Line

All Harrier approved load outs will be supported where practical. Colour schemes will include:

- Current all over Grey colour scheme

- Old two tone NATO/Lichen Green colour scheme

- Winterised version of above

- Squadron Insignia & Nose Art will be supported.

A Sea Harrier FA-2 is also in development and we hope to release soon after the GR7/9 Pack but that will depend on workload.

Rapier FSC & FSB systems – 75% & 60% - Both these addons are scripted with a fire control system that stops the AI from spamming targets, expending all its ammo in the first few seconds. The system also enables multiple targets to be engaged by different units in the same group. This may not sound like a big deal but it means SAM systems become far more effective and realistic.

Both the FSC & FSB use slightly different versions of the Fire-control system. The FSC is intended to be exclusively manned by the AI while the FSC supports the option of placing a player in the Targeting role.

RKSL/DKM C-130 Hercules – News will follow in a separate thread very soon.

SA-2, SA-5 & Skyguard Systems – Again these addons will be fire control enabled in the same was as the Rapier FSB system. A Player will be able to sit in the FC Radar operator’s position and control the firing of multiple launchers/guns etc.

SA-6 “Kub†– Again Fire Control enabled, each unit will be deployable (it cant fire when moving) and only work in conjunction with at least the “Straight Flush†Radar Vehicle.

Nimrod MR2 – 95% - I was hoping to release this as part of a larger pack but due to the (obvious) work load we have I’ve decided to postpone the R1 and MR4 variants until ArmA. Once I fix some MP issues the plane should be ready for release subject to final testing. This version will only be armed with CoC MK46 Torpedoes.

Tornados – Rebuilding – After re-visiting the Tornado during the build of the GR7 Harrier model I decided to remake the models. I wasn’t happy with the way they looked and since have managed to greatly improve the mesh – thanks to a visit to RAF Marham - over the last pictures I posted.

Features include:

- Both the F3 & GR4 models will be represented with swing wing, slats and flaps etc where the game engine allows

- Similar but modified digital cockpit to the Harrier

Colour schemes will include:

--Current Dark Grey Schemes for the GR4

--Two Tone Aircraft grey/Light Grey Scheme for the F3

- All currently approved load outs where practical.

- Thrust reversers

- Keyboard control for Burners and Brakes

- Reworked Countermeasures.

- Squadron Insignia & Nose Art will be supported.

EuroFighter Typhoon – 60% - Pretty much the same as the Tornados in features the addon will be an accurate representation of current RAF aircraft. I don’t plan to support international versions in the *first* release.

Jaguar GR3 – 40% - Again as per the Tornado and Typhoon for features. Built to mark the types retirement from service

JCA (Joint Combat Aircraft) aka F-35B JSF – 40% - Made practical by the VTOL system made for the Harrier. The current plan is to release a roundel compatible version for use with International Air Forces as the model will be almost identical for all but a few countries. Features will be similar to the GR7/9 Pack.

IL-76/78 & C-17 Globemaster – 65% & 55% - The reason for the low % complete figures is due to the older models being reworked. Both addons have been held back due to scripting issues with the cargo system. We are currently testing out an enhanced version of the BAS Cargo routines, for the Rapier Ammo packs and hope to develop it further. But until these are tested thoroughly and some response for other addons makers who might want to adopt these cargo routines, has been gained. All other cargo orientated addons will be placed on hold.

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Armed Assault and Beyond…</span>

As I’m sure a lot of people are doing now, we’re begining to plan for Armed Assault projects. There are already teams planning Mods, Total conversions and even just some collections of individual addons. After some discussion with UNN and some of our friends we’ve settled on a project that is an extension of our existing collective works.

In the last 12 months we’ve seen the British, US and NATO forces change dramatically, re-aligning themselves to fight modern wars, counter ‘terrorism’ and insurgency. This has meant the removal of several aircraft types, ships and numerous vehicles from service and the deployment of integrated battlefield control systems, dramatically changing how wars are fought. So far the community hasn’t produced many of this type of addons, things designed to be used as part of an integrated force.

So we’ve chosen to build up and simulate the British Expeditionary Forces systems either currently in service or due in service by 2012-17. For Phase 1 these include:

Naval Fleet:

CVF Carrier

HMS Ocean Class

HMS Albion Class

Astute Class (SSN) Sub (Cruise Missile platform etc) – For Sea Launched Cruise missiles

Vanguard (SSBN) Class Sub – As above

Type 45 for Fleet air defence

Support ships etc

Each with associated radars, SAM, CIWS, Decoys etc all Fire Control Linked as per Rapier FSC etc

Fleet Borne Tasked Air Group:

- JCA/F35B

- Harrier GR9

- Merlin HM1 – 4x Stingray Torpedoes/Depth Charges

- Merlin HM(A)1 - Maritime Assault Version - not official (yet?) Cannon and - CRV-7 instead of Torps

- Merlin HC3/5

- Chinook HC2 & 3

- Lynx HMA8

- WAH-1 Longbow

Land Based Air power

- Tornado GR4 - Remake in progress

- Tornado F3 - Remake in progress

- Typhoon T1 - Remake in progress

- Typhoon F2 - Remake in progress

- Nimrod MR4 – 60% Done

- E-3D Sentry – 25% Done

- C-130C3/C5 (updated RKSL/DKM)

- A400M

- C-17 Globemaster III – 25% Done

Battlefield Support:

- Sentinel R1 (ASTOR)

- Predator A UAV

- BAE Corax (UCAV)

- Rapier FSC (RKSL v2)

- Type 101 Commander Land based Radar

- Type 93 Martello Land based Radar

Sound ambitious doesn’t it. Well since the bulk of the models listed include projects intended for OFP and we plan to upgrade and re-script them to take advantage of ArmA’s new/updated engine its not quite as daunting as it might sound.

To lighten the load we won’t be creating many land based vehicles, we’re already in discussion with UKF so we don’t duplicate work unnecessarily. As well as agreed (in principle) to the sharing of some projects and base models, ideas etc to make life easier for both teams.

PHASE 2 – Integrating Systems

This isn’t just going to be about the models… as I said above this project is about providing information to the units on the ground and in the air. The plan is to create an offshore ‘base’ defended by all the associated technology that is present on today’s (and tomorrow’s) battlefields. These will provide the basis of the modern integrated information systems to accurately simulate the modern battlefield as seen from the perspective of a UK armed forces member.

We are looking in to ways to simulate the sort of communication a pilot/soldier/gunner would expect to get. This means systems and scenarios such as:

AWACS – Warning of incoming aircraft and dynamic requests for CAS, Medivac and extraction.

ASTOR – Airborne Stand Off Radar – Real time battlefield Intel provided to the appropriately equipped personnel and vehicles.

JTIDS – Joint Tactical Information Distribution (Designation) System – Target Sharing and situational displays.

Fire Control on air defence systems – AI ability to engage multiple targets at once and assign assets to threats.

UAV/UCAV tasking – requesting UAV intel/cover and being able to direct it via radio.

Simulating Air-to-Air missions, Swing role functions accurate mission profiles that change dynamically.

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'>PICS etc will be uploaded very soon!</span>

<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>Positions available...</span>

As I said before the basics of a lot of the models are already done. We still have some work to do for OFP before we begin work properly but we are already organising ourselves for a serious project. This is all rather ambitious we admit; but we’re game to try and achieve it. If you are interested in helping us out we are looking for:

Texture Unwrap Expert. - You should be able to unwrap models, import and export etc and provide layouts for the texture artists to work on.

Texture Artist. - You should be able to use Photoshop (preferably) and have some experience of texturing would be helpful.

Both postions are to be part of the team and require a commitment to finish any jobs you start. If you cant do that dont apply.

Applicants must be able to prove their skills with examples of their own work. References will be checked

Please apply via PM either here or on the RKSL site.

[tankieboy 0]

Fantastic post. Very, very exciting news. Looking forward to working with you.

[Messiah 2]

Yes, what tankie said - rockape, need to have a word with you at some point r.e. our discussion previously - good news, i gaurantee

[Colossus 2]

The list looks wonderful, I can't beleive you guys are working

on so much. Really outstanding.

[Drongo69 117]

The phase 2 stuff sounds extremely interesting. I know it's very early to be talking about such things, but do you intend to make this information sharing/threat designation/response capability usable by the AI?

At any rate, I can see these systems providing a lot of cool options to mission makers.

[hellfish6 7]

Yes, Phase 2 is definately interesting. I hope they're open systems so other teams can benefit from them.

[MontyVCB 0]

great stuff looking forward to it

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Yes, what tankie said - rockape, need to have a word with you at some point r.e. our discussion previously - good news, i gaurantee  

You've got a PM - and i like good news.

The phase 2 stuff sounds extremely interesting. I know it's very early to be talking about such things, but do you intend to make this information sharing/threat designation/response capability usable by the AI?

At any rate, I can see these systems providing a lot of cool options to mission makers.

It is VERY early days but  then initial plans are geared toward Player information rather than AI.  Forgive me if this sounds evasive but the OFP AI isnt that bright and the hope is that ArmA will bring a better standard of AI and scripting capabilities.  So you can see we dont really know if its going to be possible to fully integrate it into AI use but we'll certainly try our best.

One question that came up on IRC this morning was:

Quote[/b] ]This will make the balance swing infavour of the WEST.  OPFOR will get slaughtered its unfair.

It does seem that way i admit but there will be limits to the systems and eventually equiavlent OPFOR units will be made if the scripts are adopted by other teams.

Finally, for this post atleast:

Alpha screenshots of the UK's new class of Carriers (CVF) due in service in 2012.:  HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales.

CLICK FOR FULL IMAGES

The models have progressed quite abit since these shots with Phalanx 1B CIWS guns and SeaRAM Launchers fitted.

Please dont whine about the Su-39 - it was used for launch and recovery testing.

EDIT:

Yes, Phase 2 is definately interesting. I hope they're open systems so other teams can benefit from them.

Once released we plan to add guides to integration into your own addons.

I should also point out that we're open collaboration too - if any other team would like to make an OPFOR set of addons we'd be happy to help them convert the scripts where practical.

[MontyVCB 0]

a quick question isnt the british CVF project on hold? i have even heard that navy/airforce my even pick another aircraft over the F-35B, pretty sure i read it in airforces monthly magazine, though everytime i pick it up they do seem to make a mountian out of a molehill..

[Messiah 2]

the F-35 is on 'hold' because the americans are reluctant to allow the british to service and maintain their own aircraft, for lack of a better reason, security issues and sensitive data/info

obviously, the british want an aircraft they can service themselves, and the equipment to do so, otherwise its useless. It'll come down to some lengthy discussions and negotiations i suspect, but i dont think they'll drop the F-35 just yet (although the harrier has had some recent modifications done to it to prolong its service till things are resolved, and aircraft enter service)

this is info i've gained from others, and websites - and rockape has a way of knowing alot more than myself, so he may be able to enlighten you further. But seeing as he's setting this in 2012, i'd hope that said negotiations would have been resolved.

[Drongo69 117]

Quote[/b] ]It is VERY early days but then initial plans are geared toward Player information rather than AI.

Fair enough

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

This will make the balance swing infavour of the WEST. OPFOR will get slaughtered its unfair.

It does seem that way i admit but there will be limits to the systems and eventually equivalent OPFOR units will be made if the scripts are adopted by other teams.

I'd say that this is a strength more than a weakness. The first post mentions the restructuring of the UK defence forces for asymmetrical warfare, so the sides are not supposed to be balanced capability-wise. Gameplay balance can be done at the mission-making level (eg. low casualty tolerance, limited ROE, superior enemy numbers, etc).

[Shashman 0]

This is awesome news, and it makes me wish I had the time to learn the skills you have to undertake such a wide ranging and exciting project.

All the best!

[Shifty VCB 0]

Quote[/b] ]a quick question isnt the british CVF project on hold?

The carrier project is a right cock up as usual with the MOD. Along with JCA (JSF for you yank types). In their wisdom the MOD decided not to bother finding out which aircraft design i.e. STVTOL or CTOL, so the carrirer designs didn't know whether to put a catapult on or not. Even though they have decided for the F-35 B STVOL varient, they then decided to consider using the Hawkeyes for AEW which would require a catapult so they still haven't really decided. Considering the inservice date is supposed to be 2012 for the first one, this seems a very very unlikly prospect considering they haven't even broken steel to start building yet!

Quote[/b] ]the F-35 is on 'hold' because the americans are reluctant to allow the british to service and maintain their own aircraft, for lack of a better reason, security issues and sensitive data/info

The current problem with the F-35 program for us is that Lockheed Martin refuse to give us the computer codes to gain access to the inner works of the computer systems. This means that we wouldn't be able to intergrate any of our weapon system s into the JCA as originally planned. Also you may have seen recently that the F136 engine project was cancelled by the MOD due to cost.

Rockape looks like a lot of thoughts gone into this project and looks extremly well thought out. Well Done!

If you ever need an animator give us a shout

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

a quick question isnt the british CVF project on hold? i have even heard that navy/airforce my even pick another aircraft over the F-35B, pretty sure i read it in airforces monthly magazine, though everytime i pick it up they do seem to make a mountian out of a molehill..

I saw the same article too.  From what i've read elsewhere its not on hold but the final config is now supposedly in doubt - IE STOVL or STOBAR.

A deal has just been signed where by France will share 33% of the development costs for the common hull and systems.  The difference comes in where the flight deck layout requirements differ.

The UK has retained the option of fitting arresting gear to the decks (and the option of fitting the electromagnetic catapult system on the angled deck) just in case they need to receive NATO aircraft or the E-2D AWACS that may become the RN’s future AEW platform.  This basically means that if the UK drops the F-35 requirement (its not that likely) the Ships would be reconfigured for STOBAR/Conventional carrier operations. Its always been part of the concern surrounding the CVF project and as such they have taken great pains to give the max  number of configuration options.

Directly addressing the F-35 problem, Messiah is spot on about the "Technology Transfer" issues with the software.  However (there is some irony here) this software is developed by Lockheed Martin which is owned by BAE Systems.  The main code is actually written & developed in the UK by BAES and tailored in the US by Lockheed Martin to suit.  

The problem comes when you get to the engine, airframe & avionics lifecycle management and integation of sensor and weapon systems.  The US has (intentionally?) designed the F-35 so that only Lockheed/US proprietary boxes can be fitted and interfaced without needing the source code. Making it impossible for another country to operate the F-35 without Lockheed's or US permissions.  UK, Holland, Turkey and about 4 other countries are considering withdrawing from the program as a result.

Another  hurdle solely for the UK there is engines.  At the start of the project 2 teams were setup to develop competing engine designs.  A (US Only) Pratt & Whitney F135 and the Rolls Royce/General Electric (US/UK) led F136 consortium.  (Rolls Royce were actually also partners with P&W but on a smaller scale) earlier this year the US congress decided to cancel funding in FY07 of the Rolls Royce led engine development "on Financial grounds".  Meaning that Britain's industry loses out on a share of producing up to 6000 engines.

The UK’s defence minister Lord peter Drayson has publicly threaten to pull out of the F-35 program if the code isn’t made available to the UK (incidentally the ONLY full partner in the project) and also extreme disappointment that the UK wasn’t consulted on the decision to cancel the F136.  He’s been quoted as saying he expected the technology transfer to take place eventually but added that if no agreement had been made by the end of this year the UK’s Å12 billion pound order for 150 JSFs would not go ahead and an alternative plan (Navalised EuroFighter most likely).

Quoting directly from May’s Airforces monthly “the US Defence Secretary Gordon England said he expected the differences between the US and UK over technology transfer to be resolved by mid-June.â€

“Lord Drayson has now had ‘extremely constructive’ talks with Gordon England and other top US officials and it appears the issue should now be resolved satisfactorilyâ€

So in short…we’re still getting JSFs.

[tankieboy 0]

HMS Ocean Dunno why but I love this ship. Wouldn’t it be great to have something launched from the hull…

[Messiah 2]

oh yes, something i'd like to see too

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

HMS Ocean Dunno why but I love this ship. Wouldn’t it be great to have something launched from the hull…  

I've been following Gnat's OFP Navy thread with interest and its something that i liked as well.

As for the LHP (Landing Helicopter Platform) & LDP (Landing Dock Platform) classes i would like to add proper support for amphibious ops. Now with ArmA's promised improvments in collision detection and geometry handling we might be able to do it properly now.

[chops 111]

Thats a lot of work for been done/to be done! Best of luck with it all and looking forward to the results! Especially keen to hear about the C130

[da12thMonkey 1943]

The UK’s defence minister Lord peter Drayson has publicly threaten to pull out of the F-35 program if the code isn’t made available to the UK (incidentally the ONLY full partner in the project) and also extreme disappointment that the UK wasn’t consulted on the decision to cancel the F136.  He’s been quoted as saying he expected the technology transfer to take place eventually but added that if no agreement had been made by the end of this year the UK’s Å12 billion pound order for 150 JSFs would not go ahead and an alternative plan (Navalised EuroFighter most likely).

He's also said to be taking an offer from France to sell us Rafale M, seriously. Though I suspect this may be to put more pressure on the US if they see that we're 'actively' pursuing an alternative.

As for the CVF, last report I read on it from the DPA (probably about November last year) stated that the carrier is progressing in STOVL configuration, but with the option to easily integrate a STOBAR configuration should it be needed for subsequent Fleet Air Arm procurements (and now, if JCA goes tits-up). They're now in the process of evaluating the proposals for systems that are going to be integrated into the ships... apparently.

As for your plans for ArmA, I was excited just reading some of the ideas you mentioned to Messiah. The full details of the project sound just awesome. There's not a vehicle or system on that list that I'm not greatly anticipating.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

He's also said to be taking an offer from France to sell us Rafale M, seriously. Though I suspect this may be to put more pressure on the US if they see that we're 'actively' pursuing an alternative.

As for the CVF, last report I read on it from the DPA (probably about November last year) stated that the carrier is progressing in STOVL configuration, but with the option to easily integrate a STOBAR configuration should it be needed for subsequent Fleet Air Arm procurements (and now, if JCA goes tits-up). They're now in the process of evaluating the proposals for systems that are going to be integrated into the ships... apparently.

As for your plans for ArmA, I was excited just reading some of the ideas you mentioned to Messiah. The full details of the project sound just awesome. There's not a vehicle or system on that list that I'm not greatly anticipating.

We'll never get Rafales having spoken to the MoD PE teams a few months back they much prefer the navalised EuroFighter - the entire package makes more sense from the UK point of view and its much better for UK industry.

Besides all the french pylon kit has those weird 25-2 plugs for the electronics when the UK (and the rest of NATO) use 50-1

Also taking to a former collegue at Warton they have a mature design kit that can upgrade existing airframes to navalise them anyway.  They just need to solve the fuel load issues.

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Aye, like I said, I reckon the fact that there were reports going around that the Rafale, given that would be a proven 'off the shelf' solution, were just to spook the US a bit. The very positive offer of help from France also lay in stark contrast from the US's relationship with us at that time.

Saying that a navalised Typhoon was a definite solution, probably wouldn't carry as much weight given that it's hasn't physically progressed (in a form suitable for carrier operations) as much as the F-35 program, even though it's more preferable than Rafale.

I'd certainly like to see a navalised Typhoon over JCA though.

[stevevcb 3]

It wouldn't surprise me if we ended up with some of these instead.

Anyway, best of luck with the projects Rock, I'm really looking forwards to getting my grubby mitts on 99% of it

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Aye, like I said, I reckon the fact that there were reports going around that the Rafale, given that would be a proven 'off the shelf' solution, were just to spook the US a bit. The very positive offer of help from France also lay in stark contrast from the US's relationship with us at that time.

Saying that a navalised Typhoon was a definite solution, probably wouldn't carry as much weight given that it's hasn't physically progressed (in a form suitable for carrier operations) as much as the F-35 program, even though it's more preferable than Rafale.

I'd certainly like to see a navalised Typhoon over JCA though.

To be honest considering all the problems the French have had bringing the Rafale into service and with the reliable production of airframes i doubt it was a "serious" proposal.

From a 'patriotic' standpoint i think you're much more likely to see a Navalised Typhoon than a RN Rafale. The political fallout of not using the Eurofighter option. BAES would rustle up some support pretty sharpish if only from the Conservatives.

From the technical & logistics standpoint it would also make more sense to use a comman platform for both land based and naval aircraft and the the upgrade to a navalised version isnt that dramatic. The press have made a big deal about it for its really only the replacment of the rear fuse spar (to take the heavier arrestor hook) with a beefier one and the uprating of the landing gear. Then there's the issue of fuel load which they claim to have solved with blister tanks.

It could then potentially use the Conventional or STOBAR config just like the F-35C. It looks interesting anyway if the RN decide to go with the E-2D hawkeyes rather than the Merlin MASC or V-22 AEW.

Interesting times ahead...

Straying back to OFP & ArmA... I do plan on making a navalised version of the Typhoon anyway.

[tankieboy 0]

Looking forward to the Landrover 101FC that tows the Rapier FSB.

What tows the Rapier FSC? BV206, Pinzgauer?

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Looking forward to the Landrover 101FC that tows the Rapier FSB.

What tows the Rapier FSC? BV206, Pinzgauer?

Well this is a topic of debate... For the RAF Regiment its a Land Rover 130 Rapier Carrier.  For the 16th Regiment RA i beleive its Leylands or Bedfords (which i haven't made) or eventually Pinzgauers which i also haven made.  

I was hoping that UKF would release them first :P

But right now neither the FSB or FSC is towable - there are still some issues with Firecontrol before we event ry to address that.