iFEEL support & 3D ironsights

[strango 5]

The first game I saw them in was Trespasser (1998 I think). It also remains the most hardcore iron site aiming system I've seen in a game. Your gun sites were not aligned for you. You had to use a combination of wrist and shoulder movements to line up the rear site with the front site and then aim the weapon at the target.

[x al 1]

Never played Trespasser, and only saw a few screenshots with an arm holding a pistol. So I have no clue if that would count as an ironsight.

And of course, how could I forget hidden&dangerous. I loved that game, especially due to its tactic gameplay and its "ironsights".

Concerning difficult handling of weapons, I have my own candidate: Die by the sword.

That game had and has the most complex handling ever. VSIM, a virtual "total free" movement for blades and stuff via a complex mouse swing. You had total control of your virtual arm...ahem...it was actually other way round...the virtual arm had total control of oneself moving the mouse like mad and loosing total orientation.  

[Metal Heart 0]

Quote[/b] ]The first game I saw them in was Trespasser (1998 I think).

Wow, how the hell did I miss this game. I just donwloaded the demo and it seems like really innovative stuff for it's time.

[GBee 0]

Trespasser was incredible, with physics etc that we didn't see again until Half Life 2, a load of other content which has only reappeared in the last 4 years. I only ever played the demo though and that probably goes for a lot of people, for some reason it never made the 'splash' that it should have and few people remember it.

The aiming system (as I remember it!! so blame my memory otherwise), was the most realistic to this day.

[strango 5]

Never played Trespasser, and only saw a few screenshots with an arm holding a pistol. So I have no clue if that would count as an ironsight.

Well when that pistol has sites on it and you have to align those sites with the target I think you can call that iron site aiming, lol.

I also played and loved Die by the Sword.  I wouldn't say the system was overly complex, it just took a lot of getting use to.  In fact the system was actually pretty simple.  You move the mouse and your weapon arm would move accordingly.  If you pressed and held the block button then your character would change his grip on the sword and hold it in a defensive manner allowing you to still move it around and deflect incoming blows.

When you got over the learning curve it was great fun. After you got precise with it you could behead people.

[x al 1]

Never played Trespasser, and only saw a few screenshots with an arm holding a pistol. So I have no clue if that would count as an ironsight.

Well when that pistol has sites on it and you have to align those sites with the target I think you can call that iron site aiming, lol.

I also played and loved Die by the Sword.  I wouldn't say the system was overly complex, it just took a lot of getting use to.  In fact the system was actually pretty simple.  You move the mouse and your weapon arm would move accordingly.  If you pressed and held the block button then your character would change his grip on the sword and hold it in a defensive manner allowing you to still move it around and deflect incoming blows.

When you got over the learning curve it was great fun. After you got precise with it you could behead people.

Hehe...but I guess you know that there were 2 different difficulty settings.

Assisted moves, where you only had to press 3 buttons for high-normal-low strikes. Already these 3 strike options seem to be more than nowadays games have.

That setting was tough but handable due to the body was always in perfect harmony with the arm.

Then there was the VSIM setting. VSIM and game settings on "hard" and the game was practically unplayable. Body and arm were seperated in moves. So when those nasty little creatures were attacking and running around you, you had to...

...move your body for attacking and blocking

...move your arm for swinging the weapon

both in a coordinate manner...man that was really hard  

Next thing was: With VSIM your virtual arm moves were totally free (non scripted) according to your mouse moves. And after a few coordinated seconds, mouse, body and weapon weren't coordinated controllable due to the fact that a mouse always gets lifted from the pad...and the game didn't recognize it  

Hehe...so please no one tell me, that this game was easy. It was and is the hardest game when it comes to infight handling.

[Metal Heart 0]

Muahahaha, such a great game even if the hand is a little awkward to control... ArmA should definately have something similar. And also, no HUD.

[strango 5]

They did give you a health meter though.  It's a heart tattoo on your chest (you have to look down at your chest to see it).  Unfortunately there isn't reloading in the game, once you use up a magazine or cylinder thats all you get out of it.  When you shoot she counts down verbally how many shots you have left.

I don't know I'd go so far as to say Armed Assault should do this.  Anyone with weapons training can shoulder a weapon and align the sites quickly.  You'll also notice in trespasser that they hold all weapons with one hand, even ones with buttstocks.  They had to do this for their control scheme of controlling one arm.  They also hold all the weapons out at arms length which made some of the rifles, especially ones with hooded rear sites, very difficult to use.  It might be neat to see something where after you bring up the iron sites you have to slightly adjust the site picture to better align them by holding down a button and moving the mouse.  Then when you release the button you return to moving the weapon with the mouse.  It's a bit too late to put that into Armed Assault though, perhaps in Game 2.

BTW I never said Die by the Sword was easy, I just said the controls weren't complex. I will agree it has one of the highest learning curves in the history of gaming.

[NKVD 0]

I am for 3D Iron sights...they just look so cool.

That's one of the things I absolutely loved in BF2!

[Metal Heart 0]

Quote[/b] ]I don't know I'd go so far as to say Armed Assault should do this. Anyone with weapons training can shoulder a weapon and align the sites quickly. You'll also notice in trespasser that they hold all weapons with one hand, even ones with buttstocks. They had to do this for their control scheme of controlling one arm. They also hold all the weapons out at arms length which made some of the rifles, especially ones with hooded rear sites, very difficult to use.

Yeah, I just meant it would be cool to be able to adjust your hold and to interact with stuff by hands. I think the main character had her arm fractured in the crash, that's why she only uses one arm with rifles, baseball bats etc. Or at least that's a nice excuse

[benreeper 0]

That was one SUPER-HUMANLY strong arm she had. She could lift almost anything with it.

BTW, I found it easier to play DBTS in easy mode, with a game pad. The game ramped up in difficulty way too quickly.

--Ben

[x al 1]

They did give you a health meter though.  It's a heart tattoo on your chest (you have to look down at your chest to see it).  Unfortunately there isn't reloading in the game, once you use up a magazine or cylinder thats all you get out of it.  When you shoot she counts down verbally how many shots you have left.

I don't know I'd go so far as to say Armed Assault should do this.  Anyone with weapons training can shoulder a weapon and align the sites quickly.  You'll also notice in trespasser that they hold all weapons with one hand, even ones with buttstocks.  They had to do this for their control scheme of controlling one arm.  They also hold all the weapons out at arms length which made some of the rifles, especially ones with hooded rear sites, very difficult to use.  It might be neat to see something where after you bring up the iron sites you have to slightly adjust the site picture to better align them by holding down a button and moving the mouse.  Then when you release the button you return to moving the weapon with the mouse.  It's a bit too late to put that into Armed Assault though, perhaps in Game 2.

BTW I never said Die by the Sword was easy, I just said the controls weren't complex.  I will agree it has one of the highest learning curves in the history of gaming.

Hehe...actually you are right. The controls weren't complex, they were just hard to master.  

Not because of personal incapabilities, but due to technical difficulties.

If I want total freedom grades, I actually want total movement control. Of course one could fight in VSIM mode, but most of the time you had lucky strikes of uncontrolled swings instead of controlled strikes.

I really doubt, that anybody except of the developers mastered the controls. I guess 95% of the players (not me, I always tried VSIM) switched to easy mode.

But let DBTS r.i.p.

The controls were thought the right way, but lack technically difficulties. I guess the future will use 3D or 6D input devices and not a 2D mouse for 3D moves.  

And hey Strango...you are an old TrackIR forum veteran, aren't you? /salute

[strango 5]

And hey Strango...you are an old TrackIR forum veteran, aren't you? /salute

I don't know about veteran, but I've made some posts over there. I'm anxiously awaiting (some official word) on what kind of interaction we're going to get with Armed Assault.

[x al 1]

I have seen the quality of the ironsights used.

Either scopes

or

2D flat OFP ironsights

That REALLY looks odd nowadays.

And the switch between normal view and ironsight is soo badly, that this is a bad hit for the atmosphere. There is absolutely no look-n-feel for the weapon used.

[AntipopAU 3]

I agree...

They need, as much as i regret saying, ironsights like BF2... Iron sights that move when you move, not 2d static ones, and optics that move, the scopes have scratches, dirt etc, which makes it more realisitic..

[Dub 0]

Like this:

Pic 1

Pic 2

Pic 3

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]can someone explain what the difference is between a 3d and a 2d iron sight? I think the 2d ones in ofp work very well..  

sometimes i wish the bis weapons could have attachable , detachable sights like Acog , reflex and aimpoint and whatever they are named  

The difference between 3d and 2d ironsights in pretty much EVERY game ever made except Dreamworks' Trespasser is purely aesthetic. Simply put, if you didn't play Trespasser, basically it allowed you to freely manipulate things, and basically allow you to line up the iron sights on a gun to your own specification.

When this is pre-done for you, the impact of 3d versus 2d from a gameplay standpoint is negligible. It's for looks. Nothing more. I really don't know where people see the realism enhancement from a feature like this without being able to manipulate the firearm itself.

+1 to metal heart for the Trespasser reference. And yeah if you didn't actually play the game, you couldn't possibly understand to the full effect being able to line up ironsights had.

And +1 for the DBTS reference, I've been playing that game off and on since 1998 and I STILL play it. I'm actually really good at actually swordfighting with it now. I always thought people who complained about it being too complicated were big pussies.

[GBee 0]

When this is pre-done for you, the impact of 3d versus 2d from a gameplay standpoint is negligible. It's for looks. Nothing more. I really don't know where people see the realism enhancement from a feature like this without being able to manipulate the firearm itself.

Well I'll both agree and disagree with you here.

I would love to see a Trespasser style manipulation with full 3D sights in Armed Assault, when I voted in favour of 3D sights this is what I had in mind. I'm not sure the full arm, elbow, wrist manipulation of Trespasser would be needed but some middle ground would be good. At this late stage I have to conceed it is unlikely we will see this in Arma.

In that case I would still argue that fixed 3D sights would be a great improvement to realism even though they are a cosmetic change from OFP. Like all the visual details they add to the immersion, the more real the game looks the more real it feels. The same effect cannot really be achieved by a 2D sight as it doesn't account for changing lighting in quite the same way, though perhaps these days pseudo 3D effects like normal/bump mapping might work ok.

[RUKH 0]

All widescreen users would be happy about 3d sights, having to aim through oval scopes is really wierd. And i hope that if there are some sights that remain 2d (scopes) they will be fov adjusted in the same manner as 3d elements.

And i think that 16:9/10 will be more and more mainstream as crt´s takes their farewell so this is a serious issue.

[kernriver 4]

IMO, the only advantage 3D sights has over 2D ones is: in OFP if you look through iron sights and walk, it feels awkward, like the rifle is "glued" to your head; in COD2, for example, moving while looking through iron sights is more natural because the front sight is moving and only the rear sight is "glued" to your head. As Baphomet said, the rest is just aesthetics.

[klamacz 447]

please look at those 2 shots (from magnumland multiplayer play):

as you can see, the scope is different, probably because of light (and that could be a 3d feel of scope) or just because of HDR ...

what do you think?

[bravo 6 0]

we havent seen an scope improved yet..

what we see in those pics are the ironsights, in my opinion they look nice.

But the scopes are crap so far.. no improvement seen in old pics.

[klamacz 447]

sorry, I mean ironsights of course (poor oh poor english)

[waffen-79 0]

Brothers in Arms?

BF2?  (man what a waste of time)

Pffft...Those aren't good 3D Ironsights, the ones you're looking for are in:

COD

COD:UO

COD2

and of course:

Red Orchestra... Now that's the kind of 3D-IS I want ARMA to have, but proly not due engine limitations

BTW I wish ARMA would have "hold breath" and "bolt action" key/simulation

[x al 1]

Well...those ironsights look good, but still not perfect. The human eye always focuses the middle and blurs the rest of the view. That is why these pictures "only" look good, but somehow "unnatural".

Look at my post on page 2:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....6;st=30

I guess a symbiosis of 3D ironsights with a zoom+blur effect would come closest to the natural way of seeing through an ironsight. I assume that everybody has seen through ironsights, at least as a kid playing with plastic guns

If not, just place one if your thumbs close to your eyes, and the other thumb far away, as if you were trying to aim. Now you can focus your eye either on the front thumb or the "away" thumb, but not on both at the same time. I guess now all of you have noticed the blur effect, I am talking of.

This focus and blur effect is implementable into fps games, 100% sure!