New Russian MBT..

[Dr Bibber 0]

Russia's economy shrinks, Gorbatschov(the so called "western hero", some other ignorant piece of scum) and Yeltsin screwed up the country.

Guess the US is the only superpower left

[Assault (CAN) 1]

Dr Bibber, are you a Russian or a communist or both? Do you represent the Russian arms industry?

Why do you feel that every single peice of Russian kit is better than its western counterparts?

Look at the Russian grenade launcher. (the equivalent of the MM1) In the early models, the grenade would arm itself when the trigger was pulled. If there was a misfire the fuse would still arm and you would have to take off before it blew up on you. And I bet that you would still try and convince me that the Russian version is better than the MM1. FFS, give it up.

I don't believe that the Russians used "poison" bullets in Afghanistan. I think you might be confused with the infections that happend to the Mujahideen when they were shot because of poor sanitary conditions. The Afghanis might have thought that the Soviets were using some kind of poison bullet.

One more thing. I don't care what anyone tells me,

THE RUSSIAN ARMY IS SH*T Look at what happend in Afghanistan, something like 500 000 troops fell ill from poor sanitary conditions because the Russians couldn't even train their troops to wash properly. How pathetic. Thats what you get with an army of conscripts. Look at Checniya (sp) the Russians suffered heavy casualties from a bunch of untrained rebels, some armed with bolt-action rifles.

Enough with the pro-Russian propaganda already!

Tyler

[FetishFool 0]

Chechnaya was just a tragedy.

Russian Officer - "Please, I need reinforcements now!!  My boys are going to die!!"

Russian HQ - "Yes, yes.  We'll send reinforcements as soon as we can."

*Two hours later*

Russian Officer - "Where are our reinforcements??  My boys!!  My beautiful boys are dying!!!"

Russian HQ - "Just hold off."

Russian General - "Let them die.  They haven't even gotten to their objective."

This is a true story. This isn't the first time that an entire Russian unit dissappeared, either.

[Mister Frag 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"And the 7H6 is a standard (for Eastern Block countries) steel core bullet. If you can provide a URL for a credible source of information regarding the use of poison in these bullets, I would be pleasantly surprised."

I got my information from Duncan Long's AK books

While the Chinese military tested their new 5.8mm with

the 5.45 & 5.56 on "livestock" and claimed that the 5.45

caused more serious wounds out to 300m

While they also have high velocity 5.45 rounds made by Wolf ammo(forgot its name)

The 5.56 is heavily velocity dependent for its

effectiveness so using a barrel shorter than the 20" the

round was designed for will get you reduced

velocity/effectiveness and increased muzzle blast/flash

The 5.56 round has a muzzle velocity of 920 ms

And the 5.45 of 890 ms

The 5.45×39 bullet mass is 3.4 g (hard core)

And the 5.56×45(SS109 cartridges im talking about)

bullet mass is 4.0 g<span id='postcolor'>

That's all fine and dandy, but none of this supports the points you made earlier, nor is it even closely related.

[FetishFool 0]

Why you guys being so hard on Bibbler. (not really a question)

He seems like a nice guy. (not really a statement)

Only KingKong has ever been hard on me when I was wrong.

And he spread it to every single thread I replied on.

I said that the 5.54 round was NATO used.

Anyways. I kinda miss KingKong.. That screw-dog.

[Sandman 0]

Well, his first posts was BS..backed up by more BS...

Now he tries to make sense in his posts, so maybe the ripping on him done some good....?

[Placebo 29]

IMO "ripping" never does any good, the more you beat someone whether verbally or physically the more likely they are to bite back.

If someone is not responding to valid reasoning then just ignore them and move on

[Wobble 1]

If someone is not responding to valid reasoning then just ignore them and move on

AS much as I would LOVE to do that.. I just couldent allow myself to make your job obsolete... sorry Placebo.. but rest assured your old buddy wobble will keep you employed with his rampant tard bashing

[Placebo 29]

Unfortunately my job will never be obsolete, even if people learned to have discussions like gentlemen (and ladies of course) there would still be the abundance of posts in the wrong forums etc

[Kasatka 0]

The T-80U that take 13 RPG's 29 (105mm) shoots before explode was in Chechenia not in Afeganistan...

The T-80 in the OFP is the first version.. the B version, he isn't better than the M1A1 but the U version is...

T-80B

T-80U

B version with ERA

[Silencer 0]

why are you guys being soo mean to russia.....

look at flashpoint game the reason they made is to fight a great war in computer game...

if russia was a piece of crap,they never made this game which has nice soviet military

[Wobble 1]

The T-80U that take 13 RPG's 29 (105mm) shoots before explode was in Chechenia not in Afeganistan...

The T-80 in the OFP is the first version.. the B version, he isn't better than the M1A1 but the U version is...

seeing as how almost everything that makes the abrams what it is is classified.. and I would think the case is the same with the T-80U... your statment is about as valid as that of a fortune cooky.

[Silencer 0]

everytime someone post crap about russia ,it relaly makes me depressed...

[FetishFool 0]

Things aren't as secret as you think, Wobble.

We know what tanks are capable of. But we just don't know how they do it.

It's like the Japanese Katana sword. It's made of 3 different kinds of metal. But they melted the 3 metals so well that no one could tell the difference from a regular sword.

We know the Katana's capabilities like the back of our hands, but we could never find out how they did it until the Japanese revealed their secrets.

Point is that we don't need to know how things are done, just what they can do matters.

That's all that the governments are keeping secret. Radio equipment will be secret, too. But that's irrelevant when we're judging the individual tank.

[Rogue 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">everytime someone post crap about russia ,it relaly makes me depressed... <span id='postcolor'>

You cant really do something about it, there are always people popping up in weapon related threads with their national inferiority complexes.

Unimportant Blah blah about nothing they have a clue of, its just plain hillarious. Once you get used to it, you laugh your ass off reading their postings   .

[Wobble 1]

We know what tanks are capable of. But we just don't know how they do it.

No.. we dont.. we know whatever the respective goverments of the tanks ALLOW us to know.. and one of the biggest advantages a weapon can have is for would-be foes to NOT KNOW its TRUE capabilities..

so we dont fully know HOW they do things and we dont fully know WHAT they can do..

Im just flat getting sick of these stupid arguments... neither side really knows shit.. just a bunch of hot air.. just a bunch of

" well in XXX it took XXX shots to kill XXX so its better than XXX because in XXX it only took XXX shot to kill it!! ha, see its better!!"

none of us know shit about either of these tanks.. nothing that REALLY matters..

Ohh its has this.. this doesent have that.. so its no good.. ohh bla bla bla,...

its almost funny to watch the same argument take place ever week with the same idiots spouting the same LACK of info to back up ther baseless stances...

[christophercles 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 22 2002,07:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Chobham armour is so clasified that if a warrior breaks down in bosnia it has to be gaurded.

A worrior took a hit from a challenger that had a dodgy fault making the gun fire.

The armour saved the crew and they had no damage on them

Also the people that up-armour the warriors and challengers have to sign a more detailed offical secrets act paper that if about them being imprisoned if they tell anyone about the armour or something like that

<span id='postcolor'>

This is a little tale from an m1 in desert storm- (taken from the tom clancy book "armoured cav").

"Another more amazing story happened during General Barry McCaffery's 24 mechanized infantry Division's run to the Eupharates River. It was raining heavily, and one M1 mananaged to get stuck in a mud whole and could not be extracted. With the rest of thier unit moving on, the crew of the stuck tank waited for a recovery vehicle to pull them out.

Suddenly, as they were waiting, three iraqi T-72 tanks came over a hill and charged the mud-bogged tank. One T=72 fired a high explosive anti-tank round that hit the frontal turret armour of the M1, but did no damage. At this point, the crew of the M1, though still stuck, fired a 120mm armour-piercing round at the attacking tank. The round penetrated the T-72's turret, blowing it into the air. By this time, the second T-72 also fired a HEAT round at the M1, that also hit the front of the turret, and did no damage. The M1 immediatly dispatched with another 120mm round. After that, the third and now last T-72 fired a 125mm armour piercing round at M1 from a range of 400 meters. This only grooved the front of the armour plate. Seeing that continued action did not have any future, the crew of the last T-72 decided to run for cover. Spying a nearby sand berm, the iraqis darted behind it, thinking they would be safe there. Back in the M1, the crew saw through through thier Thermal Imaging Sight the hot plume of the T-72's engine exhaust spewing out from behind the berm. Aiming carefully throught the TIS , the M1's crew fired a 3rd 120mm round through the berm, into the tank, destroying it.

By this time the crew of the M1 were extremly agitated and making this fact known to anyone who could listen through the radio net. Help in the form of another M1-equipped unit arrived shortly afterwards, and they began trying to extract the stuck M1 from the mud hole. Unfortanatly, the abrams was really and truy stuck. And despite the efforts of the two M88 tank recovery vehicles, the tank would not come loose. Oredered to abandon the stuck abrams, the other M1's began to fire thier own 120mm guns in an attempt to destroy it. The first two rounds failed to penetrate the armour of the mud bound tank. When a third round was fired from a favourable angle, it finally penetrated the outer skin of the turret, causing the stored ammo to detonate. But rather than Destroying the M1, the fire-suppression system snuffed out the fire before it could do any real damage to the electronic systems in the crew compartment.

By this time, further M88 recovery vehicles arrived, And along with the 2 earlier M88's they finally managed to pull the tank out of the mud. The M1 was found to be operational, with only the sights out of alignment due to the ammunition cooking off. The M1 was taken back to the divisional repair yard, where the damaged turret was removed and taken back to the united states and replaced, and the tank returned to the action."

This proves that the M1 might be Heavy (at 70+ tons!), and hard to transport, but they are definatly worth it.

The M1 series also has the same Chobbam armour as the warrior, except it has more of it, and then is back up by a futher layer of depleted urainium armour.

[Sandman 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (placebo @ Jan. 25 2002,20:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">IMO "ripping" never does any good, the more you beat someone whether verbally or physically the more likely they are to bite back.

If someone is not responding to valid reasoning then just ignore them and move on <span id='postcolor'>

Ok, in a perfect world maybe....

Besides, this is a forum. Half of the fun (IMO) is to speculate and debate about things we dont have the slightest idea about Theres no real harm in that, is there?

When "X" makes a "taken-out-of-blue-shit-post" a challenging post is valid...otherwise theres no need for a forum at all. But I agree that there are simple rules to follow - the same rules that applies to a real life discussion. Havent U told anybody to "go xxxx him- or herself" sometime IRL?

And sometimes its fun to "fight fire with fire"...

Flamemode ON

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Sandman @ Jan. 26 2002,09:03)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Havent U told anybody to "go xxxx him- or herself" sometime IRL?<span id='postcolor'>

Not since I was a teenager no, and that was quite a while ago

The issue isn't about debating things we know nothing about, it's about being incapable of debating things without resorting to "STFU I've read more books than you and watch CNN, so there you stupid commie/imperialist (delete as applicable)".... or whatever

[teargas 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Crispy129 @ Jan. 23 2002,07:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Swatch that Russian made POS break down half of the time in battle.  The Russians have claimed bette tanks for almost as long as I can remember by going by stats i.e. bigger gun, bigger engine, heavier armor, ect. , but the American, German, and British tanks always seem to out perform them by far.  The one Russian advantage is they out number all of hte other coutries as far as man power goes.  The reason that NATO tanks(with the exception of probably French ones ) are proven better in the battle field is coordination, night vision capabilities, accurate and now unjammable GPS, and many other things.  Of course Russian stuff is better or at least "considered better by the Russian fanboys" if you just go by the bigger is better Tim Allen approach.  Truly even today, the Russian tanks are either cheap copies of ours, low maintanence low performance weapons, or low reliability mid-high performance.  Also if you are callig it he best tank in the world, you should see the new stealth tank the U.S. is developing/has developed.  

Crispy<span id='postcolor'>

That's what we call American Patriotism.

Every rookie has a honour to shout "their stuff are poor copies of ours and ours are better than best".

Yeah, right. Go ahead. One day life will give you a lesson to learn and study statements spreading off your mouth.

Yes, that's Americans who invented The Circle.

Yes, that's Americans who discovered periodical table of elements.

And what about Mr. God? No doubt, Mr. J. Christos Jr. also should be American.

So, try to know more before making bare statements and just try to live in peace with yourself by knowing that not every biggest boat made in America and not every achievement of human kind is made there.

[teargas 0]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @ Jan. 25 2002,08:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Look at what happend in Afghanistan, something like 500 000 troops fell ill from poor sanitary conditions because the Russians couldn't even train their troops to wash properly. How pathetic.<span id='postcolor'>

It is more pathetic. In Vietnam, we all know, American Soldiers were all in sterile white wear and all in perfect conditions. They probably were using Advanced Health Treatment And Hygyene System, thus human history has not known cases of any sickness of American Troops during Vietnam campaign.

Right?

And, of course, none of then were killed.

"Against highly trained and deadly dangerous NVA troops."

Look.

There are two poles.

By trying to set a planket onto other pole you getting to tension with an other. Just try to follow bare truth. Be more objective and less sunjective. Don't be a slave of current context.

Soviet Army lost 15 000 troops in Afghanistan and caused >450 000 hostiles lost. That's maybe because not of all Russian soldiers have been brushing teeth at the mornings but may be not. Anyway it does not make sense. That's war.

[Placebo 29]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Wobble @ Jan. 26 2002,04:47)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">" well  in XXX it took XXX shots to kill XXX so its better than XXX because in XXX it only took XXX shot to kill it!! ha, see its better!!"<span id='postcolor'>

I think you've been watching too much porn

[DodgeME 0]

Hmmm l don't belive the story with the mud and the 3 t-72 tanks. Were those T-72 crew members drunk?

[Benze 0]

Well, it's documented. T72s sucked and so did their crewmembers in Iraq. One sabot from a Abrams flamed one and several shots from T72s only resulted in a small dent in the armour.

[advocatexxx 0]

LOL!  After spending a good 20 minutes reading this thread (and all of its pages) it seems like a kindergarten class full of kids of diverse backgrounds who argue aimlessly about topics of which they know little about.  You either watch too much "TLC" or other networks who air shows that are nothing but propaganda.  You know just because it's on TV doesn't mean it's true : )  (regardless of just how convincing the narrator seems)

First let's clear some issues which were previously mentioned.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Mister Frag

It is interesting to note that the US Army has started to phase out the Abrams and rotate it out to National Guard units.  What will the Abrams be replaced with? For the next 10 to 15 years, it will be the Interim Armored Vehicle (IAV), which is derived from the eight-wheeled LAV III platform.<span id='postcolor'>

Abrams will NOT be replaced by a LAV III in the next 10 years.  Whatever your source on that data is, it's flawed.  If anything, the U.S. Army will upgrade their configurations into M1A2.  Abrams' replacement (12-15 years from now) will hardly be a crew-operated tank as it's come to be known.  A likely candidate will be the FCS (Future Combat System) shown below:

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">sgtdwetzel

I have been a "tanker" for over 11 years as a loader, driver, gunner, and tank commander, and have been in Soviet, British, and German equipment, and have seen how they work - and how they don't.  T80U the best.....know what you are talking about before you "inform" us of your un-enlightened opinions <span id='postcolor'>

Awww. Well isn't that special.  You operated a variety of tanks, good for you.  Not to sound like a dick pal, but arguments about "Ohhh this tank is the best and that one is shit" are all but mature.  Just because you've driven them and fired their cannons doesn't make your statement true.  Different tanks are designed for different purposes.  Many factors are taken into consideration when taking into account the battle scenarios, terrain, and so on.  

Since most of the modern battle tanks (Leopards 2s, Challenger 2s, T-90s, Merkavas etc) have NOT been in direct combat with one another on a mass scale, one cannot conclude whether they're best or not.  Please try to keep that in mind.  Merkavas have led a few assaults in Palestine, Challengers have supported missions in Kosovo, but neither one of these qualifies as a mass armed conflict where tanks came head to head with other tanks, AT missiles and attack helicopters.  None exept for the M1A1 which proved extremely successful in Desert Storm.

All your "best" braggings are based upon field tests, statistics, etc etc.  Hate to break this to you guys, but that hardly concludes whether a tank is worthy of the "BEST IN THE WORLD" title.

Let's just leave it at that and not argue anymore, because if my memory serves me well, this topic was already discussed and in the end, nobody could agree.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">DU rounds are banned by the geneva connection, so are napalm and landmines.

Before asking me to do a little bit more research, napalm and landmines are banned in NATO countries. Napalm was banned by an United Nations convention in 1980 <span id='postcolor'>

LOL!  Another bunch of geniuses resorting to the Geneva convention and the rules it includes.  What I love more is when these misled individuals make fools out of themselves.

First the DU rounds are not banned, and they are widely in use.  The M829A2 which will soon be replaced by M829E3 both use depleted uranium as penetrators.

Neither banned are Napalm and Landmines.  BTW Air Force used Napalm in Desert Storm quite often too.

In conclusion, I hope my post will NOT give birth to more "Screw the T-90, M1 is the best" replies, as any individual giving a tank the title of "BEST IN THE WORLD" is merely expressing his patriotism for his country or the country he adores.  If and when WWIII breaks out and all the modern tanks are pitted against each other perhaps this debate will finally be concluded, though I doubt it's worth finding out.

Oh and to reply to the original topic "New russian MBT"... A new new Main Battle Tank, which was initially planned to enter service in 1994, remains in development due to financial restrictions. It is under development at the Uralvagonzavod Plant in Nizhniy Tagil [Potkin's bureau] which was responsible for all recent Russian tanks apart from the T-80. "URALVAGONZAVOD" (Ural Carriage-Building Plant) in Nizhny Tagil has manufactured a vareity of products, ranging from universal type 8-axle rail cars and tanks of the highest quality to the T-34 tanks which had no rivals in World War II.

State acceptance trials of the new tank started at the Kubinka Proving Ground in August or September of 1998.Very little information is publicly available concerning this vehicle, including the official designation, which is apparently still designated under the developmental "ob'ekt" nomenclature. It is suggested that this new tank will weigh about 50 tons, though with a lowerr silhouette than other recent Russian tanks. The primary armament is reportedly a 152mm smoothbore gun / ATGM launcher with an ammunition load of at least 40 rounds, which may be placed in an unmanned gun pod on top of the hull to lower the silhouette and increase survivability. The new design also places far greater emphasis on crew protection than in previous Russian tank designs through a unitary armored pod inside the hull.

This new tank is apparently in competition with the T-80UM2 "Black Eagle" modification, and may remain unable to secure production funding due to its higherr cost and the potential for upgrading the existing T-80 inventory to the "Black Eagle" standard.

PS: Just for the record, no M1s were used in Desert Storm. They were either M1A1s or M1A1-HAs.