Body Armor

[guyguy1 0]

I think that in most western armys the infantry grunt usally only have "shrapnel-proof" protection.. The weight of tha "bullet-proof" armour is just to great. And since something like 80% of all casualties are made by shrapnel that kinda make sense.

Vehicle crews and other "high value" personel have the level III and IV body armours with ceramic/steel plates.

not really...most of the troops on the ground in iraq (western armes) have the level IV body armor systems as standard issue. Not many western forces still equip their grunts with those fragmentation vests anymore, unless they can't provide enough level IV vests for about 10% of their soldiers (like the United States). For the most part though, most of the western forces wear level IV protection.

[Bergmania 0]

not really...most of the troops on the ground in iraq (western armes) have the level IV body armor systems as standard issue. Not many western forces still equip their grunts with those fragmentation vests anymore, unless they can't provide enough level IV vests for about 10% of their soldiers (like the United States). For the most part though, most of the western forces wear level IV protection.

Atleast so is the case with the Swedish army.. and by the looks on the images on british soldiers in Iraq I would say it seems that my statement is true there aswell..

[zaphar 0]

Body Armor is unfortunally overrated. It may work well for small calibers on a distance but that´s it.

I remember wearing a plated vest during convoy service. It was very very bulky and heavy as hell. I don´t know if it would have kept a 7.62 from coming through. Even modern composite body armor that is much lighter than the plated armor is not that safe as you may think. Originally it is meant to keep pistol fire, fragments and stabbing away from you.

Anyway, if you´re not killed by the projectile that goes through the wonderful armor you´ll be taken out of action by the impact.

Small caliber? Long range?

http://media.putfile.com/CG-briefing-sniper-clip

Caliber is large, and range is danger close. Looks like he might disagree with you.

I bet that the round used was a 7.62x54R, I'm pretty sure they were using something like a Dragunov SVD. The interceptor vest can stop a 7.62x39 or 5.56x45. There's a new "dragon skin" vest on the market that can stop 7.62 NATO.

You're definitely right about the impact trauma, it's still going to do something to you.

[guyguy1 0]

The main issue with body armor now is the trauma effect of a bullet, not so much penetration. The dragon skin vest is far too expensive to issue to every soldier in the battlefield, but it seems that in Game2 the soldiers are being modelled wearing it . With the regular interceptor vest, troops on the field are usually OK after taking one or two hits (unless hit in the solar plexus area which is responsible for the "wind knocked out of you" feeling). There have been many instances where troops wearing the interceptor have been hit once, twice, or even three times (mostly during convoy duty) and being able to carry on. Helmets have also been known, on rare occasions, to stop AK rounds effectively enough so the user can continue to fight, although this would be unrealistic to put in effect a game like ArmA because it is very, very rare (Unless shot from long range, only if the ballistics in ArmA or game2 are accurate enough). The Dragon Skin vest has been around for almost a decade, but because of its price the military could not afford to purchase them (maybe only for hardcore special ops). It seems from the screenshots in Game2 that the troops are wearing the dragon skin vest (the back of it resembles the vest worn by west soldiers in game 2 closer than any other vest i can think of..take a look through the link [feel free to correct me]), though I'm not too sure. Dragon Skin vests have been known to prevent tissue damage and most bruising sustained from users wearing plate reinforced Interceptors that were shot by rifle rounds (so it is much more effective), and provides complete torso coverage (not just two plates, meaning that the sides, shoulders, upper chest & back and lower chest & back are all protected) from most rifle rounds.Source & Info

[Stelek 0]

Hope this work this time...

I found page that has some info on dragon skin, it also have some videos to show how they work.

http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/body-armor/dragon-skin.php

Someone, please mod body armors to Arma.

[ryankaplan 1]

Guys, bullet penetration is in arma, so if it has been nicely modeled, then i am fairly confident that it should be fully possible to simulate at least some aspects of body armour in the game.

Now from what i know (from other people) that, if you're wearing body armour and a rifle round penetrates it, chances are it'll do alot more damage to you than if you werent wearing any body armour at all, as the body armour will cause the bullet to 'tumble' through you, hitting odd bits of bone here and there, and making a larger wound as it spins around in your meaty self. Lead, being a soft material by nature, it is pretty obvious that will create alot more 'damage' if it hits a bone, making it harder for medical staff to save ones life.

I wouldnt expect this kind of explicit simulation, but i'd bet on at least the posibility for addon makers to create body armour (which is constantly attached to the model, no option to take on or off) which can stop 9mm bullets, etc if hit in the bits which the body armour is protecting.

[frederf 0]

That's true. Does anyone know if the bullet is weaker after passing through a penetratable material? Like a .50 cal bullet goes through a wooden wall and loses some of its speed? (and thus energy and momentum)

If we are able to assign special "penetratable" materials to layers worn by player models, then that's 1/2 way to modeling body armor. Unfortunately I doubt that would allow you to be hurt by 9mm at all, since it wouldn't penetrate this outter material (when in real life it wouldn't but you'd definately feel it!.

[KaiserPanda 0]

Yes, penetrating stuff definantly changed the action of a projectile. It can deflect, shatter, start tumbling, all sorts of crazy things. Some simple deflection/shattering stuff when passing through materials would be cool.

We already know that bullets deflect at low angles on hard surfaces in ArmA. It'd be cool if there was a differance between a tumbling and balistic bullet's damage. Also, bullets make realy cool sounds when they skip off the ground and start tumbling. piff-WRRrrrr.

[NeMeSiS 11]

If we are able to assign special "penetratable" materials to layers worn by player models, then that's 1/2 way to modeling body armor. Unfortunately I doubt that would allow you to be hurt by 9mm at all, since it wouldn't penetrate this outter material (when in real life it wouldn't but you'd definately feel it!.

I always assumed that 'bullet penetration' would only work on object, not on vehicles or units. But we dont really have information about that, could Suma please jump in here and tell us if bullet penetration can work on everything, or only on certain classes?

[Heathen13 0]

I always thought that body armour was ment to stop shrapnel and richocheted bullets, not to stop a full on bullet.

Yeah ok, perhaps a small caliber weapon it could possibley stop but thinking about modern weapons such as PK, M60E, GPMG, M82 etc etc. You will need to be clad like a tank to stop those which are used (except M82) on a squadly basis.

[volkov956 0]

Just for a small input my Kar98k puts holes through almost 1in metal but its a rifle hehe. Used Silvet Tip 180gr Rounds to do that. Did not have my FMJ rounds to use that day sadly.

Other things this rifle has penetrated at 100feet+

-5in Treated Wood and about 2inches into the other 5in wood behind it.

-Through a Lead/Iron Pipe went through one side then shattered inside and richoted through the inside.

-Car Axle but most the time it just richocets off depending on angle.

-So a High Caliber Rifle yeah I bet can go through body armour if it heads properlly. But I don;t feal like blasting a Body Armour suit to see what happens waste of money

[frederf 0]

Body Armor is designed a little smarter than 1" thick plate of random steel or wood, not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Truthfully I don't know the practical effectiveness of body armor on the battlefield. What I do know is it seems very silly for ArmA to visually model all of a soldier's equipment and completely ignore body armor in the damage calculations (if indeed that is what BIS has done).

[hoak 0]

This is the current issue body armor worn by U.S. Marines...

Check out this video, this video, and this video, to get an idea of what it can do with no armor plates; the videos are self explanitory, and give all specifications of the test.  The marksman attempts to put the shots directly on top of pervious shots in the outdoor video to demonstrate the armor's behavior under fatigue. The armor has proven to actually perform better on real men then on the gel dummies, but the gel dummy is damped with a steel skeleton to behave like a real man getting hit by the projectile forces in the test...

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

Nice clips there Hoak ! Thanks for sharing !

But what the fuck is this ? An Ak-47 fired from 16-17 meters does not pierce even one time out of fourty ??

The maximum effective range is 300 meters.... for the fucks sake, how can a infantry batlle be won then ??

I can understand that a 9mm can never pierce a class III vest, even if you put 100 bullets in. But if even the 7.62x39 is stopped, then the smaller 5.45x39 and 5.56x45 will always fail.

I would also like to show you one clip !!

ps. I had an addon of russian SOBR or some other kind of special forces downloaded and they wore bulletproof vests (could be seen) and they were immune against my 9mm bullets. After about 20-25 shots of the 9mm from a distance of est. 10 meters, he dropped.

[Balschoiw 0]

Keep in mind that those videos are presented by the the producer of the vests in question. I´d take them more like ads than a serious reflection of what they are capable of in real life. Test situations are clinical somewhat and do not take into account that those vests are exposed to a set of environmental and user-related influences that will alter the vests ability to work like shown in the promotion videos.

[dreday 1]

This is the current issue body armor worn by U.S. Marines...

Are you sure about that? Last time I've checked, US Marines were issued their own version of the Interceptor:

USMC Interceptor

This vest is already present in ArmA; albeit it is worn by the Norh Sahari commies, go figure...

Dragon skin is pretty expensive, I don't think it could ever be issued to every infantry soldier. Some US SOF operators were wearing them, but the Army has issued a regulation prohibiting their use.

Peace,

DreDay

[hoak 0]

[CS]SOBR[1st-I-R], as was pointed out earlier in the thread a soldiers neck and face are still vulnerable -- in fact without a neck dam most vests act sort of like a bullet funnel and make it (statistically anyway) easy to catch one in the neck.

A lot of modern Special Forces and most contemporary CQC/B training paradigm is now making PG (Pelvic Gridle) an alternative primary point of aim -- as this is a wide target (wider/larger then the head), at the center of gravity that follows the targets movement, and has demonstrated statistically to be a more effectively lethal/casual target then head shots with the same caliber ammunition.

The PG is a very soft target that's difficult to protect with armor, with massive blood flow; and the pelvis makes a great bullet catcher/reflector as few shots to this area 'pass through' cleanly -- typically ricochet off the large surrounding bones masses of the pelvis and spine causing massive, multiple path lethal or casual trauma. Many large arteries, kidneys and high volume blood flow make even the most poorly placed 9mm shot to the PG a likely candidate for a fast 'bleed out'... Pelvic girdle and abdominal hits are also some of the most painful and incapacitating as are grusome groin/genital area trauma which is also typically very psychologically debilitating...

It's the ugly stuff of war that doesn't get talked about much outside of units that train this way...

BalschoiwKeep, the demonstration are meant to test worst case scenarios: close range measured for peak projectile velocity/energy, and a dummy that models a worst case target (a fat man with no chest or abdominal muscle tone).

DreDay you are correct the issue vest was the Interceptor, but there was a huge public outcry when it was learned by families that the body armor worn by their loved ones in the Marines was not even close to the best that can be bought -- so many soldiers and families bought thier relatives dragon skin armor in the issue pattern (and were eventuallyreimbursed). Some Marines in high risk combat areas have been issued the armor on a limited basis. I think it was Defense Review or some such contractor's journal that has stated that the original contract has since been withdrawn, or is in that process and will not be renewed...

The point is modern body armor, even older gen III Aramid is very capable and will stop nearly everything (as long as it's the armor being hit) long enough for a soldier to gather his wits and seek cover...  The notion that someone hit by a bullet falls. and/or is immediately incapacitated, and/or dies is a ridiculous simplification created for early realism games...

[dreday 1]

...as was pointed out earlier in the thread a soldiers neck and face are still vulnerable -- in fact without a neck dam most vests act sort of like a bullet funnel and make it (statistically anyway) easy to catch one in the neck.

A lot of modern Special Forces and most contemporary CQC/B training paradigm is now making PG (Pelvic Gridle) an alternative primary point of aim -- as this is a wide target (wider/larger then the head), at the center of gravity that follows the targets movement, and has demonstrated statistically to be a more effectively lethal/casual target then head shots with the same caliber ammunition.

Good points. Let's also remember that the bullet penetrator technology is progressing along with the body armor development. The latest generation of rifle rounds such as US 5.56 x 45 mm M995 and Russian 5.45 x 39 mm 7N22 can probably penetrate any standard issue body armor out there. By the time Dragon Skin becomes widely deployed there would probably already be rifle rounds that can penetrate it as well.

It's the same old struggle between the spear and the shield...

Peace,

DreDay

[hoak 0]

Fair point; but even with current propellents and metalurgy -- modern ballistic encased propellent driven firearms are pretty much at the asymptote of  performance capability due to limitations imposed by the laws of physics (drag, mass, propellent energy)... Where as modern textile and composite armor is no where near the theoretical limits of the materials being used, and that can be used.

I'd be very surprised if DragonSkin and similar armor products had much problem managing current and next gen AP and SPW rounds... For ballistic projectile weapons to really overcome the limits imposed by contemporary textile and composite armor the next step, not unlike going from the longbow to the crossbow will have to be taken to achive vastly higher projectile velocities...

[olemissrebel 0]

Okay, I haven't read this entire thread, so my apologies if this info has already been stated. I'm currently active US Army Infantry...here's what I know about the IBA, in general.  The IBA itself (without plates) is only made to stop scrapnel, however it can withstand up to 9mm point blank, multiple impacts.  The plates can withstand two or three 7.62 point blank, and are the only truly 'bulletproof' features of the vest.  Rest assured, if you are hit from even afar in the plate with ANYTHING, it will knock your dickstring loose, so to speak, and you will be thrown on your ass.  All in all, while an AK round will penetrate the soft armor on your IBA, it will do a LOT less damage than if it hit you on normal soft tissue

Also, concerning the Mich Helmet, It's not made to be bulletproof, contrary to popular belief, it's merely to protect your noggin, again, so to speak.  Although it can stop a 9mm, anything higher won't do you a bit of good, because even if it didn't break through, the impact would cause severe brain damage as a result of your brain smacking against the back of your skull.   It can, however stop deflected rounds higher than a 9mm.  Those are all in general, afterall, anythings possible, except perhaps stopping an RPG

[itsabughunt 0]

OK I dont agree with some things said here. As to whether any of these vests being able to stop rifle rounds it is a fact that a hit on the front or back ceramic plate can most certainly be defeated. And most pistol rounds or shrapnel are no problem even without the plates. Heck, police officers have been wearing body armor that can stop many pistol rounds for well over a decade and it even fits under their uniform shirt. I dont understand why some people think its so hard to stop handgun rounds.

Now there seems to be a perception that being hit (and defeating) a bullet will send you flying through the air or will scramble your brains. A couple problems with these view - First a bullet CANNOT have more energy than was imparted to it from the weapon. So it cannot have wildly more energy than was felt as recoil by the person firing it. Now gas operated weapon systems will tap off a little bit of energy and damp it due to the spring in the weapon. But the person getting hit simply WILL NOT feel some vastly greater impact energy than the attacker felt as recoil. This is basic physics and its indisputable. Now it is possible that a person who is hit on the ceramic plate by a rifle round might be knocked over but they will not be sent flying through the air. This is one reason why so many popular movies are total garbage. Watch the video here: http://www.pointblankarmor.com/news.asp#

The soldier does not go flying against the Hummer. It does knock him down but if you pause it right before the bullet hits you will see that his stance was not at all braced for an impact so of course it dropped him. Standing like that he could have been dropped just as easily if someone had sucker punched him in the same place.

Now there is the view that having very protective helmets cannot work because the impact will cause brain damage. Hmm, well I can only say that a rifle round penetrating your skull will almost certainly kill you. I'd be much happier with the chance of having the concussion than having my brains sprayed all over my teammates. A similar argument people use to dismiss the modern chest armor is that if a rifle round doesnt impact the ceramic plate than it probably won't be stopped. Well so what? I'd very much prefer to at least slow it down and possibly have it stop halfway through my chest than blow through completely unimpeded. Some people take an "all or nothing" view on body armor and I really don't get it.

A couple posters have pointed out that body armor has a great many innovations ont he way and this is so true.

http://www.ccm.udel.edu/STF/index.html

[sim0b 18]

OK I dont agree with some things said here.  As to whether any of these vests being able to stop rifle rounds it is a fact that a hit on the front or back ceramic plate can most certainly be defeated.  And most pistol rounds or shrapnel are no problem even without the plates.  Heck, police officers have been wearing body armor that can stop many pistol rounds for well over a decade and it even fits under their uniform shirt.  I dont understand why some people think its so hard to stop handgun rounds.

Now there seems to be a perception that being hit (and defeating) a bullet will send you flying through the air or will scramble your brains.  A couple problems with these view - First a bullet CANNOT have more energy than was imparted to it from the weapon.  So it cannot have wildly more energy than was felt as recoil by the person firing it.  Now gas operated weapon systems will tap off a little bit of energy and damp it due to the spring in the weapon.  But the person getting hit simply WILL NOT feel some vastly greater impact energy than the attacker felt as recoil.  This is basic physics and its indisputable.  Now it is possible that a person who is hit on the ceramic plate by a rifle round might be knocked over but they will not be sent flying through the air.  This is one reason why so many popular movies are total garbage.  Watch the video here: http://www.pointblankarmor.com/news.asp#

The soldier does not go flying against the Hummer.  It does knock him down but if you pause it right before the bullet hits you will see that his stance was not at all braced for an impact so of course it dropped him.  Standing like that he could have been dropped just as easily if someone had sucker punched him in the same place.

Now there is the view that having very protective helmets cannot work because the impact will cause brain damage.  Hmm, well I can only say that a rifle round penetrating your skull will almost certainly kill you.  I'd be much happier with the chance of having the concussion than having my brains sprayed all over my teammates.  A similar argument people use to dismiss the modern chest armor is that if a rifle round doesnt impact the ceramic plate than it probably won't be stopped.  Well so what?  I'd very much prefer to at least slow it down and possibly have it stop halfway through my chest than blow through completely unimpeded.  Some people take an "all or nothing" view on body armor and I really don't get it.

A couple posters have pointed out that body armor has a great many innovations ont he way and this is so true.  

http://www.ccm.udel.edu/STF/index.html

you boys should be greatfull for having access to any type of body armour. In the Brit army you have to share it with your mates if your lucky, because polititians are to tight with the defence budget!

[codarl 1]

I'd very much prefer to at least slow it down and possibly have it stop halfway through my chest than blow through completely unimpeded. Some people take an "all or nothing" view on body armor and I really don't get it.

Dude, nobody here said that people would fly backwards when shot by a rifle, what they said whas that it'd mess you up pretty bad, and would more likely prevent you from being combat effective (IE lying in a state of shock, uncouncious, or whatever you can come up with)

When you are actually hit by a bullet, pray that it goes completely trough. if not, well, the bullet has got to come out again, most likely in seporated pieces... imagine how that'd be.

Also, what you say about the shooter vs. shot person thing, it aint right. For the shooter, all the energy is displayed by alarge surface on the outside of his body, whereas a shot person will have a small ammount of surface coming inside (/trough) his body. the stress posed on the shot person's body is far greater then that posed on the shooter's body!

[Sniperwolf572 758]

To add to Codarls post, bullet that passes trough you is less lethal than the one that remained inside, because fragmentations of the bullet will bounce around your body, making great deal of internal injuries. But, I too, would prefer to at least, have a chance that the bullet won't even get inside of me at all.

[redpride 0]

Body armor isn't a bad idea but it should be a seperate item and not part of the unit itself and should be be "equipable" like the NV goggles and rifle,and just like everything else should add extra weight to the unit reducing it's speed.