Eurofighter - Not such a failure.

[Supah 0]

Have you seen how the Indians acquire aircraft?!! They say they'll buy some examples, just to whet the manufacturer's appetite, then they say "Give us the technology and we'll build the rest ourselves." That is one damn clever way to build up an aircraft industry .

How very chinese of them Though they did buy harriers of the british Then again if you want carrier based VSTOL harrier is just the only effective choice. A class in its own Check out the thai indigenous fighter design btw. A very modern looking machine which the thai talk down about a lot but too me it seems to have a lot going for it.

[harley 3 1185 0]

if memory serves the Indian Navy is going to do what we British are planning to do and return to fixed wing air capability at sea.  The IN is tendering for a large supercarrier, though what it's going to fly on it I'm not too sure.  Thai fighter jet, hmm.  I'll have a look - I didn't even know the Thai built aircraft  

EDIT: Ah yes, my memory wasn't playing tricks on me at all. The Indian Navy is currently having the Soviet-built Admiral Gorshkov refitted, and is due to enter service in 2008. It will fly 18-20 Mig-29s. In 10 years time it will replace the INS Viraat (ex-HMS Hermes of Falklands fame) with an Indian-built "Air Defense Ship" - based on a conventional U.S. or British carrier. Jeez, if I had the time I'd go join the Indian Navy-talk about ambitious. 2 Carrier Battle Groups in the Indian Ocean and South China Sea by 2015, with a pack of SSNs to cover them. Nice.

[Daniel 0]

Hmm, can't find any Thai fighters, I can only see F16s, F5s, and a load of old WW2 pics. Anyone seen any?

[Supah 0]

Whoops sorry Taiwanese! Must have been thinking about tonights dinner in the back of my mind Look for "Ching-Kuo" Its a neat looking plane! check this out Taiwanese AIDC

[Daniel 0]

Ooh, very nice

Looks like a sleek mini F16

[harley 3 1185 0]

Looks more like a single fin FA/18 to me .

[Bordoy 0]

I love the Eurofighter Typhoon. If i get enough grades then I'll be joining the RAF (maybe) as a pilot.

[MontyVCB 0]

if memory serves the Indian Navy is going to do what we British are planning to do and return to fixed wing air capability at sea.  The IN is tendering for a large supercarrier, though what it's going to fly on it I'm not too sure.  Thai fighter jet, hmm.  I'll have a look - I didn't even know the Thai built aircraft  

EDIT:  Ah yes, my memory wasn't playing tricks on me at all.  The Indian Navy is currently having the Soviet-built Admiral Gorshkov refitted, and is due to enter service in 2008.  It will fly 18-20 Mig-29s.  In 10 years time it will replace the INS Viraat (ex-HMS Hermes of Falklands fame) with an Indian-built "Air Defense Ship" - based on a conventional U.S. or British carrier.  Jeez, if I had the time I'd go join the Indian Navy-talk about ambitious.  2 Carrier Battle Groups in the Indian Ocean and South China Sea by 2015, with a pack of SSNs to cover them.  Nice.

the IN are looking at the mig-29k and the su-33 for their proposed super carrier

[hellfish6 7]

The Thais also have their own aircraft carrier - a version of the Spanish Asturias-class CVL with Harriers.

The Indians have a pretty long history of carrier operations and their new naval plans are pretty cool. It's nice to see India living up to it's potential. IIRC, their SU-30s gave some F-15Cs a run for their money during exercises in India and Alaska. Definately suprised the Americans, but I don't know what the results actually were.

[kerosene 0]

I remember reading about that, someone mentioned how they used modernised Mig-21's as well. All the articles where about how much of a shake up it was etc, i really had to dig, but the ratio of planes was 5 to 1 in Indias favor for the excercises.

That part didn't seem to get mentioned much.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I love reading threads like this...there are lots of 'experts' waving their nations flags, screaming "we're the best!".

RE the EuroFighter vs F15/F16 capabilities

These interceptions have been going on for ages.  Some time ago, '99/00 I think the DA2 Prototype was operating out of RAF Lauchars on avionics integration testing...there were several reports of intercepts attempts from various NATO aircraft among which were American F-15C's but mostly, German Tornados and MiG-29's and Dutch F-16...all of which were favourable as far as the EuroFighter was concerned.  

The main sources for this info were the RAF Newspaper and the BAe EuroFighter company magazine.  (When I get home I’ll try and find it)  

Now this was just one of the early prototypes with RB199 (Tornado) engines and restricted flight control weighing about 1400kgs over the design limit.  In 2001/2 EJ200 full power engines were fitted to both the prototypes and the SIFT (Single seat Integration and Fatigue Testing) preproduction aircraft, and the Flight control was derestricted - this unlocked about 30% more thrust and upto 40% of the flight envelope.  Making it the most powerful aircraft in its weight class.

I know at least 2 RAF Pilots that have flown the improved DA4 and SIFT airframes.  Both have those have done exchanges with US or other NATO air forces on various types; both have spent time in F-16s and at least 1 has flown an F-15 operationally for more than a year.  Both these guys came back to Warton smiling like lunatics after their conversion flights.  One phrase that was used in my own earshot was "F@ck the Falcon I want one of those!"

The official line has been that its a complete multi and swing role platform its been able to do pretty much every functional role in either the Luftwaffe, Italian AF, Spanish AF or RAF's operational specs.  It costs a lot less than a Tornado to maintain and within 10years it will be cheaper to operate than an F-16 which has less than half the systems on board. It doesn’t have the legs of the heavy fighter like the F-15 or SU-27/35 but it isn’t designed to.

It’s going to be able to carry everything NATO makes (except some of the French kit due to non standard fittings) and be able to interface with most if not all of the Battlefield information systems that are in use today.

Now those are all the positive things, its a beautiful and very manoeuvrable fighter when its running with a light load, just like the F-16 and F-18.  But the moment you put a proper war load on it the actual max limit of performance is reduced.

Full combat load max G for:

F-15C - 5.5-5.8G

F-15E - 4.2-5.1G

F-16 - 4.5-5.2G

GR4A - 5.5-5.8

F3 - 5.8-6.5

EuroFighter - 5.6-6.6

Source for these is Flight International 2004

The above assumes that the aircraft are operating at their max operational load outs.  The argument of whether an EuroFighter can kick an F-15's ass is childish.

However if you read the Royal Navy's operational reports from the Sea Harrier (SHAR) Integration testing from 1981 - The USAF took part in exercises with the Fleet Air Arm operation 4 SHARs vs 4x F-15Cs in the early part of that year and over 3 days the Sea Harrier maintained a 3-1 kill ratio.

Source for this is the RN's own archive its public record as part of the formal acceptance documents put before the MoD procurement board in September '81 when they increased the order.  As well as Commander "Sharkey" Ward's Book about the Sea harrier, "Maverick over the Falklands".  It devoted about 10 pages explaining it.

While not in the same class both these aircraft are 'pure fighters' - both have very strict primary roles and were loaded with light operational loud outs (source: Sharkey Ward's book).    The SHAR won due better low speed manoeuvring.

The F-15 is a cold war design meant for long range escort and interception.  The EuroFighter is medium range swing role platform designed in the post cold war era.  It is a lot more stealthy, it is a lot smaller but just as powerful (Better thrust to weight ratio) but it has proven to be a lot more manoeuvrable than any  aircraft in its class.  You can ask the Dassault Team at Farnborough a few years back.  They could NOT get the Rafale to fly the same display as the restricted Prototype DA5.

As someone who worked on EuroFighter I am a bit biased I’ll admit but if you were to put an F-15 and a EuroFighter in a close dogfighter with purely short range missiles and guns…I’d happily put my money on the EuroFighter every time.

RE The Indian Aerospace industry.

They are using a nice strategy in part given to them on a plate by BAe (Now BAE Systems).  They bought the first operational aircraft on an ‘Offset deal’ – same with a lot of Naval vessels.  Basically they commit to buy X number of aircraft ships etc proving that a number of the components are made locally.  Then after the first tanche of deliveries are made 20+ aircraft they then assemble under license.  

They did this with the Jaguars bought from the RAF and Hindustani Aerospace Limited (HAL) is now supplying spares to both France and the UK for our aging Jag fleets.   Similarly they now have the license to manufacture parts for the Harrier and have busily been upgrading their own fleet to GR5/AV8B standards.

India made out of it with Training and reduced priced aircraft.  Increased local industrial investment and now an exportable technology product line.  HAL and other Indian manufacturers provide parts and design services to BAES, EADS, Airbus, Boeing, Rolls Royce and Pratt and Whitney.

And of course the MoD and BAES made out of the deal by selling the aircraft twice, ongoing spares and repairs, training and of course expanding their market place into Aisa.

(yes i am bored - working away from home atm)

(edits for spelling and grammar - hey i'm tired)

[harley 3 1185 0]

Thankyou, RockofSL, for your expert opinion. I found that a most informative and enjoyable read - can't say that I come across those to often .

[breaker44 0]

Where in the world did that first article come from?

-Breaker Out

[Supah 0]

Now those are all the positive things, its a beautiful and very manoeuvrable fighter when its running with a light load, just like the F-16 and F-18. But the moment you put a proper war load on it the actual max limit of performance is reduced.

Full combat load max G for:

...

...

F-16 - 4.5-5.2G

...

...

EuroFighter - 5.6-6.6

Bit of a moot point that, once you get jumped you want to get rid of the external stores like bombs and droptanks immediatly. Your not going to get into any serious type of turning under max load. Good way to rip some pylons of the wings.

The original poster claimed the Eurofighter was rather great because it out turned a couple of E type Eagles. Which I believe we can both agree on is not a big achievement. The Eagle not being designed as a dogfighter.

In a dogfight with an F-16 the new full body G-suit which the RAF is also fielding I believe in conjunction with the Typhoon (still think Spitfire II would have been a better name ) might give it an edge but who knows. In the end it will always be the man and not the machine.

The JSF has just entered the pre production stage AFAIK, too bad our airforce is getting a toned down monkey version compared to the american version. But oh well maybe something to think about before we buy american hardware again

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Where in the world did that first article come from?

-Breaker Out

Flight International Trade Reference 2004 page 147 - A US publication - pay for the full corporate subscription and you'll get it.  The compartive table was published in Feb 2004 i think...not too sure on the date.

I inherited my copy from a friend.

Bit of a moot point that, once you get jumped you want to get rid of the external stores like bombs and droptanks immediatly. Your not going to get into any serious type of turning under max load. Good way to rip some pylons of the wings.

The original poster claimed the Eurofighter was rather great because it out turned a couple of E type Eagles. Which I believe we can both agree on is not a big achievement. The Eagle not being designed as a dogfighter.

In a dogfight with an F-16 the new full body G-suit which the RAF is also fielding I believe in conjunction with the Typhoon (still think Spitfire II  would have been a better name ) might give it an edge but who knows. In the end it will always be the man and not the machine.

The JSF has just entered the pre production stage AFAIK, too bad our airforce is getting a toned down monkey version compared to the american version. But oh well maybe something to think about before we buy american hardware again

Isnt insomnia wonderful

Dumping stores isnt the best way to complete your mission...infact its rather frowned upon.  Thats why escort fighters are usually tasked into the group.

We were told two different stories about the name.

#1 - Spitfire was not acceptable to certain members of the consortium due to its obvious wartime conatations. It was felt that the Germans and Italians would be unhappy about owning an aircraft that 'defeated' them. Rumour has it that it was actually proposed but i dont know anyone that can confirm that.

#2 - The offical party line was that it was felt 'Spitfire' was so iconic that it should not be used for any other fighter than the original.

In the spirit of international cooperation the less well known name was chosen...an aircraft made famous as a Tank Killer as well as a Fighter of some quality apparently (subjective i know)

Supah what nationality are you?

The spec for the RAF/RN version from what i've been told and read is changing quite alot.  There's still quite alot of debate about the weight and the RAF/RN and the USMC are kicking up alot of fuss right now but it seems that because the USAF are getting the lion's share that weight reduction isn't very high on the priorities list.  It seems to be more about Avionics than anything else - the USAF changed their requirements I beleive.  So that there is now quite a bit of difference in the agreed spec to the standard now required what that difference i dont know yet though.

Export versions should only differ in avionics from what i understand and most of the export orders seem to be for the conventional varients rather that the CV (Carrier) or VSTOL systems.

Also from what i understand there are going to be about 5 stock avionics layout to shoose from with the obvious National customisations that will go on. (IFF etc)

[red oct 2]

came across some sort of pilots forum that talks about what happen, duno how many of these guys are actually "pilots" but one quote got my attention:

Quote[/b] ]First, lets examine the reported incident. Two Eurofighters on a

"first RAF formation training flight"--so they are cruising around

learning how to fly their airplane. Are "bounced" by a pair of Mud

Hens (not the air superiority variant of the F-15, although arguably

quite capable.) The two RAF aircraft break off their training and

engage in an unbriefed, unauthorized hassle with the Eagles, and

"ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one...."

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.

You've described a WVR engagement and don't acknowledge that the

standard Eagle tactics would have been to long range radar shoot in

the face, then intermediate range IR shoot in the face, then blast

through with guns if the kill was not complete.

The Eurofighters wouldn't have engaged in a turn/burn WVR engagement

and the Eagles would not have been in a "fighting wing" or closer

formation so that the Eurofighters could "comfortably gun" the

trailing one.

In other words, the entire report is pathetically bogus and written by

someone without the first clue of air/air engagement or training.

I'm not demeaning either the Eurofighter or the RAF, but there is no

reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this report regarding

superiority of the one or demise of the other.

http://www.aviationbanter.com/printth....1&pp=10

[HellToupee 0]

The Lightning would have been hopelessly out classed by now no matter how much it would get updated. If you want to live in your dream world thats up to you It's a great plane but by todays standards it just doesnt cut the cheese anymore.

the lighting performace wise is upthere with modern fighters, and pilots loved the plane.

Its weaknesses were range and payload, but its performace is still impressive almost 50years on. A lighting with modern engines and materials

It could also catch U2 spyplanes

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

You've described a violation of training and safety regulations.

You've described a WVR engagement and don't acknowledge that the

standard Eagle tactics would have been to long range radar shoot in

the face, then intermediate range IR shoot in the face, then blast

through with guns if the kill was not complete.

The Eurofighters wouldn't have engaged in a turn/burn WVR engagement

and the Eagles would not have been in a "fighting wing" or closer

formation so that the Eurofighters could "comfortably gun" the

trailing one.

In other words, the entire report is pathetically bogus and written by

someone without the first clue of air/air engagement or training.

I'm not demeaning either the Eurofighter or the RAF, but there is no

reasonable conclusion to be drawn from this report regarding

superiority of the one or demise of the other.

http://www.aviationbanter.com/printth....1&pp=10

I think "they" are overlooking one critical factor...pilot's egos.  Most pilots bend rules to get one up on another pilot, espeically another pilot in another Air Force.

If you read the posts later on he goes on to admit that "bouncing" does happen...

Its not un heard of for US Pilots to 'tickle' UK aircraft and vice versa.  This would not include the use of BVR tactics - to tickle a target you get with in visual range and "light them up" with your radar.  To bounce them you would approach at speed and overshoot them surprsing the hell out of them.  The tactics in use would be a visual interception.

If the pilots egos are to be factored in you never know what happened.  But from what i know of joint operations these sorts of events pop up - as to whether it was a spontaneous event or part of a sanctioned exercise i seriously doubt we'll ever know.  Neither the RAF or the USAF will ever admit to anything.

Quote[/b] ]the lighting performace wise is upthere with modern fighters, and pilots loved the plane.

Its weaknesses were range and payload, but its performace is still impressive almost 50years on. A lighting with modern engines and materials

It could also catch U2 spyplanes  

Its still an interesting fact that the top speed of the Lightning was never publically released or admitted to.  It remained one of the fastest climbing fighters in the world right up to it retirement.  But it just wasnt capable of operating in the same theatres as other aircraft.

It had very short legs, very small and limited payload and the avionics were at best late 70's vintage.  Even if it were to be remade using modern materials its very design would still make it impractical in today's theaters. (if anyone lives in Manchester UK - the orginal prototype for the Lightning is in the Air and Space museum off Deansgate.

Personally i loved the Lighting, i wandered around Binbrook at the last airshow with a tear in my eye when the last Lighning left but realistically it cost too much to operate and could not really operate along side the more modern aircraft at even level.

It also caught a few Blackbirds returning to Mildenhall after having a gentle stroll over the USSR.

Ok thats me I have an early meeting.

[Pathy 0]

The original poster claimed the Eurofighter was rather great because it out turned a couple of E type Eagles. Which I believe we can both agree on is not a big achievement. The Eagle not being designed as a dogfighter.

Putting words in my mouth, nice debating tactic

Until the guy your doing it to notices and points out he never said that,

[Supah 0]

http://scotlandonsunday.scotsman.com/uk.cfm?id=673262005

Quote[/b] ]IT might be over budget and years late but the Eurofighter Typhoon has shown that it can shake off America's best fighter plane and shoot it down.

A chance encounter over the Lake District between a Eurofighter trainer and two F-15 aircraft turned into a mock dogfight, with the British plane coming off best - much to the surprise of some in the RAF. The episode was hushed up for fear of causing US blushes.

For a project 10 years late and $8bn over budget, it is a welcome piece of good news.

The 'clash' took place last year over Windermere when the two-seater RAF Eurofighter was 'bounced' from behind by the two F-15E fighters.

The US pilots intended to pursue the supposedly hapless 'Limey' for several miles and lock their radars on to it for long enough so that if it had been a real dogfight the British jet would have been shot down.

But much to the Americans' surprise, the Eurofighter shook them off, outmanoeuvred them and moved into shooting positions on their tails.

The British pilots themselves were almost as surprised at winning an encounter with an aircraft widely regarded as the best fighter in the world.

Seems maybe its the right choice after all

Or maybe you did after all The article describes a mock dogfight and you claimed it maybe wasnt the wrong choice after all . Out turning a couple of F-15E's is no big feat.

[miles teg 1]

Well, while all of you are talking about mock combat, Israel has used the F-15C fighters in REAL combat. Israeli F-15's have never suffered a single loss in the IAF in any of the air to air engagements that they have been in.

I think that ALOT has to do not so much with the machine, but with the quality of the pilots. IAF pilots are generally regarded as some of the top pilots in the world and when given a decent machine, they tend to dominate even against numerically superior opponents.

The Indian Airforce likewise has demonstrated to the US Airforce what can be done even with older but updated Mig-21's. That's why Egypt also has upgraded their Mig-21s with Western avionics. The Mig-21 still makes a nice little fighter aircraft after all these years.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Well, while all of you are talking about mock combat, Israel has used the F-15C fighters in REAL combat.  Israeli F-15's have never suffered a single loss in the IAF in any of the air to air engagements that they have been in.

I think that ALOT has to do not so much with the machine, but with the quality of the pilots.  IAF pilots are generally regarded as some of the top pilots in the world and when given a decent machine, they tend to dominate even against numerically superior opponents.

From what i've read all Israeli F-15 Kills have been BVR or atleast medium range (Sparrow) kills with a very small percentage of Sidewinder shots. (Gun kills have been recorded by F-16)  Then its down to the Radar and AWACS coverage, which rests mostly with the equipment rather than the skill other crew.

Israel has always had technological dominance over the other nations in the area which has always allowed a greater advantage in BVR to Medium range combat.

Even in ground attack, with the use of western ECM and Jamming kit to the stores hung on the aircraft have given the IAF a huge advantage.  Although i will admit to a great deal of respect for Israeli Engineers improving again and again on the kit they've worked on.

As for the skills of the pilots I'm not taking anything away from the Israeli crew here.  I've heard a number of knowledgable people praise them but i've also heard the same people make the point of technological advantage when it comes down to the number of kills made.

[Supah 0]

Well, while all of you are talking about mock combat, Israel has used the F-15C fighters in REAL combat. Israeli F-15's have never suffered a single loss in the IAF in any of the air to air engagements that they have been in.

I think that ALOT has to do not so much with the machine, but with the quality of the pilots. IAF pilots are generally regarded as some of the top pilots in the world and when given a decent machine, they tend to dominate even against numerically superior opponents.

From what i've read all Israeli F-15 Kills have been BVR or atleast medium range (Sparrow) kills with a very small percentage of Sidewinder shots. (Gun kills have been recorded by F-16) Then its down to the Radar and AWACS coverage, which rests mostly with the equipment rather than the skill other crew.

Israel has always had technological dominance over the other nations in the area which has always allowed a greater advantage in BVR to Medium range combat.

Even in ground attack, with the use of western ECM and Jamming kit to the stores hung on the aircraft have given the IAF a huge advantage. Although i will admit to a great deal of respect for Israeli Engineers improving again and again on the kit they've worked on.

As for the skills of the pilots I'm not taking anything away from the Israeli crew here. I've heard a number of knowledgable people praise them but i've also heard the same people make the point of technological advantage when it comes down to the number of kills made.

They did manage to be a lot more effective with their phantoms against fishbeds then the americans managed over vietnam The Israeli's have one of the best airforces in the world They have some of the wildest falcon versions too!

[StealthTiger 0]

Whoops sorry Taiwanese! Must have been thinking about tonights dinner in the back of my mind Look for "Ching-Kuo" Its a neat looking plane! check this out Taiwanese AIDC

Looks like the bastard child of both the F-16 and F/A-18!

Quote[/b] ]Personally i loved the Lighting, i wandered around Binbrook at the last airshow with a tear in my eye when the last Lighning left but realistically it cost too much to operate and could not really operate along side the more modern aircraft at even level.

I have a fondness for the Lightning too, my father used to take me upto Binbrook and we'd watch them. As a child I used to see them flying over my village (Avro Vulcan's too).

More recently I've had the privilage to watch Typhoons flying to/from Warton from my office - they're an amazing machine to see in the air. I just wish they'd land one at the local airport so that I can get a closer look.. chances Rock? Yeah thought so

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

More recently I've had the privilage to watch Typhoons flying to/from Warton from my office - they're an amazing machine to see in the air. I just wish they'd land one at the local airport so that I can get a closer look.. chances Rock? Yeah thought so  

Well if you live near either RAF Waddington or RAF Coningsby you should get a nice view in the next 6 months. 17 OEU and No 29 OCU are operating out of both these bases on integration training. (Coningsby being the home base)

Failing that find a good airshow and you should be in for a treat.

If you want some nice detail images and accurate info try the Eurofighter site:

Eurofighter Media Library