1970 vs 2010

[Jinef 2]

I don't see much of a difference. The fundamentals are still the same between now and then.

Look at today's conflict, Iraq, and compare it with Vietnam.

BLUFOR = Offensive Force

OPFOR = Oppositional Force

Comparison:

OPFOR side has little weaponry.

OPFOR has little technology.

OPFOR  has to use local populus to support it's war effort.

OPFOR resorts to bombing behind BLUFOR lines for max effect.

OPFOR relies on superior manpower to end the war.

OPFOR leads a costly war with many dead.

BLUFOR side has little weaponry.

BLUFOR relies on high technology.

BLUFOR uses great mobility and firepower to overcome OPFOR.

BLUFOR destroys lines of supplies from countries/populus.

BLUFOR has limited manpower.

BLUFOR has very low casualties.

The tactics are exactly the same, the weapons are just as effective. Nothing really changes from a tactical standpoint.

The main difference between one situation and the other is:

BLUFOR cannot kill as many civilians as they would like to.

BLUFOR has learnt from experience how to reduce casualties.

The battle doctrine hasn't really changed either.

If you fear casualties : Enemy contact front 300 metres. Fix the enemy with suppresive fire. Call in airstrikes/mortars to destroy the enemy.

If your force ratio is 3:1 : Enemy contact front 300 metres. One/Two sections fix with suppresive fire. Three section moves to < 100M. Two section moves to < 100M. One section disengages. Two/Three sections move to ENY positions to destroy ENY with rifle/bayonet/fragmention grenades.

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Of course people can create mods to show different eras however the fundamentals have remained the same since the Germans created infantry 'tactics' in WW2.

Before then the general idea was to get up from your position with bayonets fixed and walk slowly towards the ENY. Despite any ENY MG fire.

Anyway, I don't want BIS to spend time making vehicles and guns. I want them to focus on functionality and realism so that MP works and people are immersed.

Edit: Grammar

[crave22 0]

As do I. Leave it to the mod teams to make the amazing weaponry and vehicles.

Now, about these tactics mentioned...

It is true that in almost every conflict in modern history, the BLUFOR has been armed with the better weaponry and OPFOR with more men. This is mostly because it's usually an east vs. west situation. eastern tactics have always involved huge movements of troops. I do admit, most modern eastern nations have much higher tech than usual, but they still pale in comparison to the western nations.

However, let's replace BLUFOR with something else. Let's look at it from Russia's point of view in the 70s and 80s. They, of course, knew it as REDFOR vs. OPFOR, US obviously being the planned OPFOR. Essentially, it was a role reversal; REDFOR being the invaders, OPFOR being the defenders. However, REDFOR would have less tech to more men and OPFOR (what most of you know as BLUFOR) would be more tech to less men.

If that war occured, it wouldn't really fit in to the OPFOR/BLUFOR (or REDFOR) genre. It would be a completely new genre of it's own: BLUFOR/REDFOR. Neither invading or defending. Neither with an explicit advantage. Both of them being equals balancing each other out. That's what I want G2 to be. Not high tech vs. low tech. High tech vs. lower tech. Personally, that would be fun. Two superpowers duking it out at FULL strength. Unlike OFP in that way (since OFP was more or less an isolated incident). That would be fun to me. Two modern superpowers duking it out in an all out war.

[Jinef 2]

What you describe is essentially what OFP1's campaign could be given more real circumstances/force sizes. CWC was about REDFOR advancing on islands OPFOR was defending with small numbers of troops. However in OFP1 they were on relatively equal tech terms and troop numbers.

What 1985 CWC and elements of OFP:R could be in a modern game engine:

Situation:

AO: Island 1 (60*60km/3600 sq km). Due to upset in the government of this Island a coup was launched and a person appealed to the USSR to help them transfer to socialism/communism. US troops (1 Coy US Marines) stationed near the island are ordered to deploy just offshore IOT to respond if requested by the former goverment.

USSR decides to aid the transfer over to communism and deploys troops.

Inital Phase:

Large REDFOR (2x Battalions Airborne) sent to occupy and stabilise island 1 IOT to allow transfer to different political system. They land at airport to North.

US Marines land on south of island.

ROE for both sides: Weapons hold, only return fire if fired upon.

Mission REDFOR:

Provide security as new government forms, deter BLUFOR intervention by limiting all movement in the north. Set up a defensive line to south in case BLUFOR uses force. Do not provoke BLUFOR.

Taskings: Checkpoints, Patrols, Sentry Duty, Escort, House to house searches for weapons/explosives.

Mission BLUFOR

Set up defensive positions in case REDFOR attacks. Begin hearts and minds campaign to remove civil support from new government. Do not provoke REDFOR. Provide security for personnel tasked to contact members of former government to try and re-establish democratic governement.

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Well as long as the highly trained soldiers of both super powers have orders for weapons hold things should go smoothly and the best political system best at winning support shall win, right?

-------------------

Viva Le Resistance!  

Rebel groups form that support REDFOR intentions.

Rebel groups form that support BLUFOR intentions.

Rebel groups form that do not like foreigners at all.

Actions:

Bombings - Car Bombs, Bombing CPs, bombing other rebels.

Hit and run. - Attacking BLUFOR/REDFOR convoys

Hostage taking.

Sabotage.

------------------------

Pretty volatile situation, BLUFOR and REDFOR on a big standoff. With hostile actions against both in between. Obviously each side believes the other is recruiting people to attack them; maybe they are, but we infantry are not classified at that level though

So, the time bomb is ticking. The politicians are being fucking useless as always. Most of them have been taken hostage so it's hard to get them all together for a discussion anyway. You are left with an island full of rebels and 2 super power's military units.

The balance:

The REDFOR has like 1200 regular troops. Supported with:

light armour

light artillery

3 helicopters - 2X Mil-24D, 1X Mil-8 Hip

motorised pool.

Attachment of 10 spetnatz operators.

Radios are available from Bn HQ down to PL HQ. Squad Leaders need to shout and hand signal intentions. They need to send a runner to platoon HQ for message delivery if it comes to that.

The BLUFOR has roughly 200 troops. The platoon leaders have a night imaging device, they have radio comms to each squad leader. Infantry are issued with an NBC suit as the enemy has many gas mortar rounds. The company has starlight night vision devices to mount on machine guns in static fire roles.

The coy is supported by:

Troop Landing Ship

Supply Ship

Light Frigate

Pl 81mm Mortar Sections. (300 Rounds)

Pl 60mm Mortar Sections. (2000 rounds)

Offshore 105mm naval artillery fire (2000 rounds)

2 AH-1 Marine Cobras

2 HH-60 SeaHawks

1 CH46 Sea Knight

A USMC Force Recon Sniper Unit (8 men)

In 3 weeks an aircraft carrier with several supply ships will be on station providing air cover/cas. If your company is alive in 3 weeks.

-------------------------------

As long as this remained conventional warfare without expanding to other theatres or going nuclear I think it could be fairly plausible and also tricky to decide as to how it would end. In reality it just wouldn't happen, BLUFOR would dissapear in the night denying they were ever near the Island, much better to have a tiny island go communist than

-200 military personnel in the BLUFOR public eye.

The campaign as a soldier could be showing the tensions of holding a fragile peace together, then slowly becoming more volatile where the player has to really think about whether he should take the safety off or not. Other situtations could be trying to stop the rebel actions while not provoking REDFOR.  Missions to capture rebel leaders, house searches for weapons, arrests, looking for suspected rebels on patrols all under the watchful eye of the nice man sitting behind the 12.7mm machine gun on the other side of the minefield.

The campaign as a commander could be very interesting. Deciding where to defend. Looking for the best positions. Giving your soldiers ROE which reflect your directives from Washington. Hell, you could suprise attack the REDFOR garrison and kill them all if you want to get it over with quick. However chances of success are below 0%.

You could also go after the rebels with no remorse.

However all the time, either playing as a commander, soldier or civilian. You understand that without warning war could start.

REDFOR could use 82mm mortars to drop gas on the US forces positions, then use mechanised infantry to close in under a screen of smoke and proximity fused 82mm rounds.

Or the BLUFOR could have a sniper team assasinate the enemy Rgt. CO (Guba possibly ) and use a cruise missile with cluster bomblets to disable the ENY aircraft and runway.

Whatever. However I think this campaign would be a nice mix of fragile tension and full scale conflict. I'm sure I heard BIS wanted some more peacekeeping style gameplay somewhere.

Edit: Mathematical error

[echo1 0]

No matter how many MiGs there are, all of China's MiGs have outdated hardware. The only thing that would probably work would be their guns since the F22 is stealth and has paint which reduces it's heat signature. That makes radar-guided missiles and heat-seekers useless. Plus, don't forget about the B-2. It takes luck just to see it at night.

If a MiG got close enough to an F/A-22 it would easily be able to get a lock. With the wide proliferation of modern manerouverable missiles such as the AA-11, it wouldn't be impossible to shoot down an F-22. The Raptor isn't invisible, it just merely has a higher chance of getting the first shot, which is really what air combat comes down to. As for the B2, the newest Russian SAMs are aparently able to get a lock, and they'd be dead meat if they were intercepted by fighters. Thats why the US only use them at night.

[Sabin Stargem 0]

2010: Perdition of Sara, alternate scenario

In 2010, China and Russia form an alliance and begin attempts to expand their territories, with emphasis placed upon conquering Europe and taking Japan and Taiwan. The United States and Canada are unable to prevent this, because China halted all exportations of goods to the Western Hemisphere. Suddenly left without the goods that China manufactures, and that the United States and Canada are incapable of producing many goods themselves, they play relatively little role in the conflict, due to negotiations over restablishing the economic ties that China has severed.

At present however, the defenders against the Eastern Star Alliance turn to the black market for weapons and mercenaries. Without the West's support, it is a neccessary measure. These events could very well result in World War III. An important campaign takes place on an island code-named Sara. It has certain qualities that could turn the tide of the war, by a fair amount. Every bit helps, and this is where our story takes place.

The Perdition of Sara...in stores, 2006.

*False, unlikely scenario. Just made something that I felt that could sound different from all of the 'US vs Russia' scenarios people think of.

[duck_rat 0]

Wouldn't it be more realistic if it was Korea and China seeing as both these nations are communist and Russia isn't?

[hundwerfer 0]

the game's set in the future

the soldiers are seen wearing interceptor armor...they're fighting the russians, they are using modern weaponry and vehicles

[duck_rat 0]

The soldiers infact are wearing SPEAR body armour which is unrealistic because it was made for special forces, therefore they SHOULD be wearing Interceptor. Moreover because it is set in the future the Army should really have MICH helmets and ACU pattern uniforms.

[Richmuel UK 0]

The Thing that made OFP so special was that it was fictional yet believable. I think you need two well equipped armies. At the moment the Americans and UK seem to be singled out by the rest of the europeans. Maybe a scret conflict on yet another 'islan between them and europeans. Two well equipped modern armies. It would be alot of conspiracy with a secret conflict none of the world knew about. Can't think of a reason they would fiight.

[llauma 0]

The soldiers infact are wearing SPEAR body armour which is unrealistic because it was made for special forces, therefore they SHOULD be wearing Interceptor. Moreover because it is set in the future the Army should really have MICH helmets and ACU pattern uniforms.

As I've said before this is a full scale war scenario against a strong opponent so things don't always follow the rules. The soldiers would be using anything they can get their hands on.

The majority of a few million(?) soldiers wouldn't be using ACU pattern and MICH helmets, at least not when the war begins. After all it's not really the future, only four years ahead in time. How much has a US soldier changed since 2001 even though they have been in war which normally accelerates the development?

[duck_rat 0]

I suppose so, but if a quick reaction force was sent I think they would get the latest gear for deployment. As seen in Iraq troops are receiving the newest equipment so these would come up at some point in the game.

[BraTTy 0]

I am not so hot with a 2010 theme,depends on how futuristic it is.Sounds like they will have to balance the sides and it can't be realistic.I'd like it as realistic as possible and on that note...how does Bis really know how technology advanced a country like USA is,the citizens hardly know.I trust Bis judgement and they will make it fun and realistic I am sure.

As long as its moddable for other eras,alot of you say Vietnam and WWII has been done,but not good like Bis could do it.I still think someday they should make OFP a all era war simulator,that would be intense.

I still dream of Pacific Scenario in OFP,thats some good fighting back then.

[PainDealer 0]

I am not so hot with a 2010 theme,depends on how futuristic it is.

well, 2010 is just around the corner only 4 years away

[duck_rat 0]

I am not so hot with a 2010 theme,depends on how futuristic it is.Sounds like they will have to balance the sides and it can't be realistic.I'd like it as realistic as possible and on that note...how does Bis really know how technology advanced a country like USA is,the citizens hardly know.I trust Bis judgement and they will make it fun and realistic I am sure.

As long as its moddable for other eras,alot of you say Vietnam and WWII has been done,but not good like Bis could do it.I still think someday they should make OFP a all era war simulator,that would be intense.

I still dream of Pacific Scenario in OFP,thats some good fighting back then.

I understand what you're saying, seeing that in the present day the US is the only real superpower and the countries associated with it. It would be a lot more realistic if they did a scenario which would be comparable with conflicts such as the Vietnam War and the recent Iraq war; the US/NATO invading a country they consider to be a walk-over and don't expect much resistance. Then the shit hits the fan which is similar to what happened in Iraq and Vietnam and it turns into a full scale conflict between local rebels and the US/NATO. As we have seen from both these wars, just because the rebels are ill-equipped and ill-trained dosn't mean they are an inadequate enemy for professional armed forces.

[NeMeSiS 11]

I am not so hot with a 2010 theme,depends on how futuristic it is

Back in 2001, did you call 2005 "futuristic"?

really, 2010 isnt that far away  

[funnyguy1 0]

I think testing the xm8 in game wouldn`t be a problem for ppl who don`t like to much speculation about the future gear.

I mean, come on, of course there won`t be any revolutionary changes, but changes are indispensable.

Besides, in comparison to what we have in CWC even equipment used nowdays seems to be futuristic...

[BraTTy 0]

2010 isn't that far away, 2 years of electronics can be alot tho.Are we just gonna sit there with spy sats and launch long range bombs?

And by saying its 2010 ,Bis can technology advance an enemy to fight againts who? The USA? China,Russia? Can't go creating imaginary wars,too much controversy.

Sounds like it may be 2 imaginary superpowers

[llauma 0]

2010 isn't that far away, 2 years of electronics can be alot tho.Are we just gonna sit there with spy sats and launch long range bombs?

And by saying its 2010 ,Bis can technology advance an enemy to fight againts who? The USA? China,Russia? Can't go creating imaginary wars,too much controversy.

Sounds like it may be 2 imaginary superpowers

Why would we suddenly start launching long range bombs/missiles? We have had cruise missiles since 1917.

95% will look just the same as now. The thing that might change a little are the percentage of the different weapons/vehicles.

If there will be full scale war in 2010 I'm sure that there are some military people making up the plans for the first strike as we speak. Those plans doesn't include any new super weapons but the same units we see in Iraq today.

All the armoured vehicles, helo's, planes and transports will be basically the same. They might maybe add some lighther armor platings to some transport vehicles but that's pretty much it.

Making it 2010 allows BIS to add the Osprey and the F-35 without people complaining and vice versa, but they will most likely play a small role. The F-16 and A-10 will still be the main planes in the USAF. The Osprey won't replace the sea king and sea stallion by 2010.

[JdB 151]

The state the modern (and in the near future) Russian armed forces are in makes them no worthy opponent to the US, which is a far more modern force (just look at the ''elite'' soldiers that shot up entire groups of women and children in Beslan, barely trained bunch of conscripts). The Chinese would be a more logical choice (also to finally rid us of the constant US vs Russia plot that BIS apperantly loves so much) as their armed forces are expanding like crazy.

[Mr_Tea 0]

Not only the Chinese Armed Forces are expanding like crazy. Theire economy is doing the same, with that the demands expanding like crazy. Right now as we speak, there are not only plans that made fore a future war. The armies going to set in tactical positions right now. US and China are trying to "control" lands with natural resources. I´m realy afraid of the complete stage of this, because we know only very little about the hole thing. Sooner or later this can only lead to armed conflict between America and China.

God help us all.

[JdB 151]

The same was said of the USSR, but we never actually fought with them in a full scale war (we as in the ''free'' West).

[Mr_Tea 0]

Time will tell, and i hope that i`m wrong about that, realy.

[guyguy1 0]

I'm all for the China vs USA idea for this game. Just seems realistic because of all the tension building between the two nations right now and since they're basically the strongest countries in the world.

[llauma 0]

Keep in mind that BIS said that USA would win the war in the end so It's probably not China as the outcome wouldn't be that certain. My bet is that it's about a conflict in the middle east, USA vs. Iran. Russian still has to show that they have military capabilities so they attack some neighbouring country. This will get EU involved in the conflict hence the Russian units and european terrain.

[Raptor 10]

nice bonus campaign would be a balcan conflict with KFOR units or other freedom conflicts, example SFOR...

for a Addon (like resistance) maybe?