The Middle East part 2

[Stealth3 0]

Links to prove what you said ?

He never said the Holoucasnt never happened, but that it shouldn't be an excuse to create a country (Israel).

I disagree with his views btw.

[EiZei 0]

Fascism just ain't fascism without nationalism.

[Donnervogel 0]

Ummm... Hanging gay people in public, and even from cranes overlooking public places? Hanging teenage girls for breaking "chastity laws"?, purging reformers simply to rid the government of opposition? President a former terrorist hostage-taker? Holocaust denial and aggression against the only democracy in the Middle-East? Iran fighting Israel through its proxy HizbAllah? The president believes he is the Mahdi(The redeemer of Islam, Messiah if you will)?

It sounds like a pretty standard case of an islamofacist theocracy.

you need to learn what fascism is.

the main characteristic of a fascist country is their aggressive ultra nationalist and authoritiarian stance, valueing the nation above all other values.

There is no such thing as a fascist theocracy. A fascist regime and a theocracy are conflicting themselfs in their main interests too much to be able to exist next to each other.

It's simply a propagandistic term used to connect certain regimes to the fascist movement and thus the nazis (Goldwin's Law anyone?) and thus placing them in the "evil" side. It's pretty brainless though.

[mp_phonix 0]

He never said the Holoucasnt never happened, but that it shouldn't be an excuse to create a country (Israel).  

He did say it !

Damn am I & Nemessis the only ones who saw it ?!

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]President a former terrorist hostage-taker?

Oh how ironic that at least one of Israels presidents was member in a terrorist organization, and also participated in a terrorist attack (IIRC). Fascism!! Israel got nukes, and they're crazy fascists!!!

[bucket man 2]

Ummm... Hanging gay people in public, and even from cranes overlooking public places? Hanging teenage girls for breaking "chastity laws"?, purging reformers simply to rid the government of opposition? President a former terrorist hostage-taker? Holocaust denial and aggression against the only democracy in the Middle-East? Iran fighting Israel through its proxy HizbAllah? The president believes he is the Mahdi(The redeemer of Islam, Messiah if you will)?

It sounds like a pretty standard case of an islamofacist theocracy.

I guess you refer to the two teenagers that were hanged. I think it was Iranfocus.com or some other propaganda site that first reported it.

Ofcourse they conviniently forgot about the fact that the two guys had raped and killed several children.

Their president is also not a hostage taker. As far as I remember, many organizations around the world, including CIA stated that the person in the photos was not Ahmadinejad.

I would rather believe them than you.

Besides Israel once had their defence forces and government full of former terrorists.

I bet you have hard time finding any reliable sources for the other parts too.

For example the holocaust denial part is rather stupid because some members of the iranian government say they believe holocaust happened and they suffer no punishments.

Its not the official state policy of Iran that holocaust never happened.

Most news about Iran are mostly propaganda because they get first reported by sites like Iranfocus.com and western news agencies sometimes take the details from other sites.

[Stealth3 0]

Phonix is right, he did denied the holoucast. But I think its more political than anything else:

Quote[/b] ]Host: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, at a news conference in Saudi Arabia, denied that the Holocaust happened. "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces," Mr. Ahmadinejad said. "We don't accept this claim," the Iranian president said, adding that if Europeans want to believe in the Holocaust, then they should make room for the state of Israel to move to Europe.

Maybe he wanted attention.

[scary 0]

He never said the Holoucasnt never happened, but that it shouldn't be an excuse to create a country (Israel).

He did say it !

Damn am I & Nemessis the only ones who saw it ?!

Unless you speak Farsi you did not see it, you saw a translation, most likely a heavily edited version of MEMRI's already edited mis-translation.

Phonix is right, he did denied the holoucast.  But I think its more political than anything else:

Quote[/b] ]Host: Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, at a news conference in Saudi Arabia, denied that the Holocaust happened. "Some European countries insist on saying that Hitler killed millions of innocent Jews in furnaces," Mr. Ahmadinejad said. "We don't accept this claim," the Iranian president said, adding that if Europeans want to believe in the Holocaust, then they should make room for the state of Israel to move to Europe.

Maybe he wanted attention.

You were correct the first time. Ahmadinejad did not deny the Jewish Holocaust, he said the Palestinians were not responsible for it. What you have quoted there is MEMRI's mis-translation, already edited, then edited further. Never take fractured sentence fragments at face value.

The full, correctly translated passage (emphasis mine):

Quote[/b] ]'If the Europeans are telling the truth in their claim that they have killed six million Jews in the Holocaust during the World War II - which seems they are right in their claim because they insist on it and arrest and imprison those who oppose it, why the Palestinian nation should pay for the crime. Why have they come to the very heart of the Islamic world and are committing crimes against the dear Palestine using their bombs, rockets, missiles and sanctions.' [...] 'If you have committed the crimes so give a piece of your land somewhere in Europe or America and Canada or Alaska to them to set up their own state there.' [...] Ahmadinejad said some have created a myth on holocaust and hold it even higher than the very belief in religion and prophets [...] The president further said, 'If your civilization consists of aggression, displacing the oppressed nations, suppressing justice-seeking voices and spreading injustice and poverty for the majority of people on the earth, then we say it out loud that we despise your hollow civilization.'

He said there was a Holocaust.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

he rejects the holocast as a valid reason for Israels existance in short.

[Garcia 0]

holocaust isn't a valid reason for Israels existance. If Israels existance would be only because of holocaust, they really misplaced it's location. Besides, a lot of other groups of people should have gotten their own country if things like holocaust was a valid reason to create a new country.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

plus the british had been promising the arabs in palastine there own country since ww1.

[scary 0]

he rejects the holocast as a valid reason for Israels existance in short.

Precisely.

holocaust isn't a valid reason for Israels existance. If Israels existance would be only because of holocaust, they really misplaced it's location.

There were two reasons for the creation of Israel. One was the Holocaust, but the main reason was the large number of Jewish refugees. The UK wasn't capable and didn't want to take them in, and the US just didn't want to. Israel was essentially a large refugee camp.

Still a crap location though.

Quote[/b] ]Besides, a lot of other groups of people should have gotten their own country if things like holocaust was a valid reason to create a new country.

Well, 8 million Northern Europeans were killed in the Christian conversion so I claim Iceland, Norway and Milton Keynes in the name of the Heathen state of New Teutonia.

[Nemesis6 0]

Well, about Israel's former Prime Minister Sharon being a terrorist, it's not really that simple. Driving out the British was the best thing to do. While I in no way support the killing of innocent Arabs, know that the Arabs were pretty good at massacring Jews(Hebron riots for example) with the pretty doing absolutely NOTHING about it, in one case simply just ignoring an ongoing massacre against all Jews by Arabs.

[deanosbeano 0]

Well, about Israel's former Prime Minister Sharon being a terrorist, it's not really that simple.

Quote[/b] ]The massacre

The raid at Qibya took place on the evening of October 14, 1953. It began with an artillery barrage at the village until Israeli troops reached the outskirts of the village. Landmines were laid out on roads to prevent Jordanian troops from joining the fight. When the village had been cleared of resistance, Israeli soldiers laid explosives around many of the houses and blew them up after calling for residents to evacuate. At dawn the operation was considered complete and the Israeli troops returned home.

Forty-five villagers' houses had been destroyed, as well as the mosque, the school, and the water reservoir. Over 60 people were killed, two thirds of them women and children. The rest of the village population, around 2,700 people, had decided to evacuate after being ordered to do so by Sharon's men[citation needed]. The Israeli government initially claimed that the killing had been carried out by Jewish civilians living near the border, but later admitted that it had been carried out by military forces.

The IDF claims that the plan was to ambush Arab Legion forces in the area, by destroying some houses as a decoy. The original orders issued by the Israeli General Staff were relatively limited in scale, instructing the forces to "carry out an attack … with the aim of temporary occupation and the demolition of houses, and to harm the inhabitants". However, going down the command chain, before they reached the unit's commanders, the orders changed to demand "maximum killing"[1].

Ariel Sharon later wrote in his diary that he had received orders to inflict heavy damage on the inhabitants of Qibya: "The orders were utterly clear: Qibya was to be an example for everyone". Sharon said that he had thought the houses were empty and that the unit had checked all houses before detonating the explosives. In his autobiography Warrior (1987) he wrote:

"I couldn't believe my ears. As I went back over each step of the operation, I began to understand what must have happened. For years Israeli reprisal raids had never succeeded in doing more than blowing up a few outlying buildings, if that. Expecting the same, some Arab families must have stayed in their houses rather than running away. In those big stone houses […] some could easily have hidden in the cellars and back rooms, keeping quiet when the paratroopers went in to check and yell out a warning. The result was this tragedy that had happened."

Israeli historian Benny Morris expresses doubt in this claim, considering the nature of the orders Unit 101 received. He also points to the fact that U.S., U.N., and Arab Legion reports indicate that villagers were killed before the demolition of the houses began. The U.N. observer who inspected the scene, Major General Vagn Bennike, chief of staff of the U.N. Truce Supervision Organization (which investigated the scene the next day) said: "one story was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them."

why is it not that simple ?

[Nemesis6 0]

Driving out the British was the best thing to do. While I in no way support the killing of innocent Arabs, know that the Arabs were pretty good at massacring Jews(Hebron riots for example) with the pretty doing absolutely NOTHING about it, in one case simply just ignoring an ongoing massacre against all Jews by Arabs.

Quoting myself for the first time... hmm..

[Stealth3 0]

It still doesn't answer the question.

[scary 0]

Driving out the British was the best thing to do. While I in no way support the killing of innocent Arabs, know that the Arabs were pretty good at massacring Jews(Hebron riots for example) with the pretty doing absolutely NOTHING about it, in one case simply just ignoring an ongoing massacre against all Jews by Arabs.

Quoting myself for the first time... hmm..

I believe the phrase you like to use is 'terrorist sympathiser'.

Why do you consider it acceptable for the Israelis to use terrorism to 'drive out the British' yet condemn Arabs as backward religious zealots for using it to drive out the Israelis? In fact, in that post you equated the Arab desire to expel Jews as 'an ongoing massacre against all Jews'.

Double standards?

[Nemesis6 0]

Look at what driving out the British brought the Jews and the world in general - It gave democracy a foothold in the Middle-East. That's how it's different - The Lehi/Stern fought to establish Israel. The Palestinians are fighting to all Jews everywhere and establish another Islamofascist theocracy like they have in Gaza.

By the way, another thing it did was give the Jews a homeland they can call their own. About my saying "terrorist sympathiser", I would probably write it with a Z instead of an S in the end.

[billybob2002 0]

plus the british had been promising the arabs in palastine there own country since ww1.  

Actually, according to the White Paper of 1922, Palestine wasn't apart of the promise in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

Edit: made it simple

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

plus the british had been promising the arabs in palastine there own country since ww1.  

Actually, according to the White Paper of 1922, Palestine wasn't apart of the promise in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

Edit: made it simple

ahh ok . I think Israel leaves blindspots in its education. It dosnt do enough in education to make people understand islam, somthing which is vitale to get sustained peace. It might not be education but many israelis i have debated with often "forget" that there early settelers from europe were terrorists.

[billybob2002 0]

plus the british had been promising the arabs in palastine there own country since ww1.  

Actually, according to the White Paper of 1922, Palestine wasn't apart of the promise in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence.

Edit: made it simple

ahh ok   .  I think Israel leaves blindspots in its education.  It dosnt do enough in education to make people understand islam, somthing which is vitale to get sustained peace.  It might not be education but many israelis i have debated with often "forget" that there early settelers from europe were terrorists.

Not all Palestinian Arabs were innocent during the Mandate years too. Mohammad Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, hated Jews and actively worked with the Nazis. For example, in 1941, he declared a holy war against the British and he got Hitler to make a statement saying, in effect, that the Nazis would destroy the Jews in Arab lands. Additionally, in 1943, he helped formed the 13. Waffen-Gebirgs-Division der SS Handschar, a Waffen-SS Division comprised of Bosnian Muslims, to fight partisans in the Balkans. According to the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, a 1945-1946 commission to review Jewish immigration to Palestine, Mohammad Amin al-Husayni was probably the most popular Palestinian Arab leader.

Then there were the riots and other acts of violence that targeted Jews. As well, the Arabs targeted British officials. Basically, both sides (including myself) of the argument have issues dealing with history of the conflict regarding the Mandate years.

Sources:

http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=1960

http://domino.un.org/unispal....ocument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_angloamerican_1945.php

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/anglo/angap04.htm

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]There were two reasons for the creation of Israel. One was the Holocaust, but the main reason was the large number of Jewish refugees. The UK wasn't capable and didn't want to take them in, and the US just didn't want to. Israel was essentially a large refugee camp.

Still a crap location though.

Those were the main (and legit) reasons, you got other, minor (more stupid) reasons too...like one that I've seen many jews use when interviewed on telly (to defend the existance of Israel)...God gave them that land, and they were there 3000 years ago, long before those who is there now... Honestly, those people don't really strenghten Israels right to exist when they point towards a book that nobody can prove is true...

Quote[/b] ]Well, 8 million Northern Europeans were killed in the Christian conversion so I claim Iceland, Norway and Milton Keynes in the name of the Heathen state of New Teutonia.

That means you're claiming my country

Quote[/b] ]Look at what driving out the British brought the Jews and the world in general - It gave democracy a foothold in the Middle-East.

Oh really? So let's put it this way. You think it's allright for jews to use terrorism because the result of that terrorism is something you mean is good? That means that all muslims who perform/support terrorism may be right, because they probably belive the result (if they won) would be good for the world etc etc. And we don't really know if the result will be good...

Quote[/b] ]By the way, another thing it did was give the Jews a homeland they can call their own.

Oh how sweet, and another thing terrorism against Israel will do, is possibly give Palestinians a homeland they can call their own...

You know, we got some people here that live in Norway, Sweden and Finland (mainly) called lapplanders (or something in english). I feel they don't really got a homeland to call their own, seeing that their "land" is across 3 other countries. Also, scary just claimed Norway, and with it a large part of their "land". Therefor I think we should give the lapplanders the whole west coast in USA, whole of Denmark and Germany, and half of Japan...

Quote[/b] ]About my saying "terrorist sympathiser", I would probably write it with a Z instead of an S in the end.

And if your going to spell everything correct, you may think about writing "About me saying..."

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]About my saying "terrorist sympathiser", I would probably write it with a Z instead of an S in the end.

And if your going to spell everything correct, you may think about writing "About me saying..."

On an unrelated note, Nemesis6's "about my saying" construction was correct. Incidentally, Garcia, I don't think Nemesis6 was trying to imply that you spelt 'sympathiser' wrong, only that he would opt for the US spelling.

[Donnervogel 0]

The Palestinians are fighting to all Jews everywhere and establish another Islamofascist theocracy like they have in Gaza.

yes I see the Gaza fascists...

as always you parrot propagandistic phrases without even caring to validate them...

great discussion style.

[TrevorOfCrete 0]

why do people have to have a state to call it there homeland? many people can live in an area that they call home, despite the state beign of a differnt culture, religion and language. It comes back to the fact that Israel are just as racist and arrogent as the arab states.