The Middle East part 2

[EiZei 0]

In the honour of Abu Hamza's recent 7-year conviction I will now run some of his words of wisdom through a pirate translator, observe:

(The scourge of zionist landlubbers himself, yarr)

"It be immoral t' target people who have no say in t' war. In fact they were against t' war in Iraq ... If it was not for this Zionist media ... t' people o' this country ... would have informed themselves ... so it be not fair t' target them. It be not Islamic ... We’ve got t' distin'uish between t' evil politicians and t' normal people who go about their business every day."

"Killin' o' t' Kaffir for any reason you can say it be OK, even if thar be no reason for it." He called on his followers t' poison, ambush and kill non-believers and added: "You must have a stand with your heart, with your tongue, with your doubloons, with your hand, with your cutlas, with your Kalashnikov. Don't ask shall I do this, just do it."

"hey hate t' Jews more than we do. But t' Jews own them. They own everythin' they have and they own their fantasies as well and they have a file on each one o' them that could embarrass them in fore o' t' people if he does not follow what he tells them"

[xawery 0]

Quote[/b] ]"hey hate t' Jews more than we do. But t' Jews own them. They own everythin' they have and they own their fantasies as well and they have a file on each one o' them that could embarrass them in fore o' t' people if he does not follow what he tells them"

Lol, nice one Eizei. Yeah, the Jews pwn!

/edit: God, an eight word sentence and still I manage to make a spelling error.

[theavonlady 2]

All your base belong to us.

[der bastler 0]

All your base belong to us.

All your base are belong to us.

Please quote correctly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us

[theavonlady 2]

All your base belong to us.

All your base are belong to us.

Please quote correctly...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_your_base_are_belong_to_us

Of course, I was translating from the original Yiddish.

Dontcha know?!

[Garcia 0]

Something I heard on the local airbase, Dutch F-16's have fired warning shots with the 20mm cannons at a crowd near Maymana in the north of Afghanistan as the locals tried to storm a norwegian base there. So far I've read no reports of injuries so I think they didnt fire directly at the crowd That would have been really messy!

Ooooh, dutch planes too? Heard that a US F16 flew low over the crowd, as a "show of force" as a norwegian colonel or something called it...

damn, what if the pilot had missed and hit the crowd...that would indeed be quite a mess

[xawery 0]

damn, what if the pilot had missed and hit the crowd...that would indeed be quite a mess

To quote Nation States: "That's when crowds of flag-burning protesters tend to turn into crowds of burning protesters".

[llauma 0]

LennyD could you please change your avatar? Sure you have the legal right to have it but it's quite obvious that it's very offensive to a large part of the worlds population, hence it's flaming. The swastika is legal in most countries but for obvious reasons I don't think it would be accepted as an avatar.

While one shouldn't go out the ones way to provoke people, I think that the comparison is flawed.  The swastika is a symbolic representation of a regime that was responsible for the murder of millions of people.  The Mohammed cartoons on the other hand have a completely arbitrary meaning.

Did you know that Islam forbids images of any prophet -- not just Mohammed.  Jesus for instance, which Islam sees as a prophet, is also on the list of figures whose image is forbidden.

So, should we tear down the cathedrals in Europe because those images on the stained-glass windows go against the rules of Islam and as such are insults to Muslims?

Religion is arbitrary.  There are many different religions and most of them have contradictory goals and rules.  Hence no religion has the right to demand respect for their rules and laws.

A swastika is just a symbol which represents an evil regime. The symbol itself is totally harmless. The Mohammed cartoon on otherhand is the 'crime' so it's worse than a swastika, at least for a billion people.

Sure the issue might be very flawed but as long as muslims aren't rioting about the Jesus paintings it's not a problem, the Mohammed cartoons are.

We can't please every single person in this world but when it comes to such a large population we should at least try to find a solution instead of refusing to consider their point of view. Our western values and laws are not some universal truths. They are our believes of the universal truth.

A society where the stronger is allowed to do whatever he wants with the weaker, even kill him can't be dismissed as 'wrong' as easy as that. I don't believe that our values are a result of a divine intervention and I'm quite confident that you agree with me. They are a result of many factors and they could easily have looked very different, and they have.

I admire people standing up for their values and genuinely trying to make the world a better place according to their values but you should never forget that no matter what they are still just your values. Tolerance and respect are the keys. We ask for tolerance from the muslims and they ask for respect.

[theavonlady 2]

LennyD could you please change your avatar? Sure you have the legal right to have it but it's quite obvious that it's very offensive to a large part of the worlds population, hence it's flaming. The swastika is legal in most countries but for obvious reasons I don't think it would be accepted as an avatar.

While one shouldn't go out the ones way to provoke people, I think that the comparison is flawed.  The swastika is a symbolic representation of a regime that was responsible for the murder of millions of people.  The Mohammed cartoons on the other hand have a completely arbitrary meaning.

Did you know that Islam forbids images of any prophet -- not just Mohammed.  Jesus for instance, which Islam sees as a prophet, is also on the list of figures whose image is forbidden.

So, should we tear down the cathedrals in Europe because those images on the stained-glass windows go against the rules of Islam and as such are insults to Muslims?

Religion is arbitrary.  There are many different religions and most of them have contradictory goals and rules.  Hence no religion has the right to demand respect for their rules and laws.

A swastika is just a symbol which represents an evil regime. The symbol itself is totally harmless. The Mohammed cartoon on otherhand is the 'crime' so it's worse than a swastika, at least for a billion people.

Sure the issue might be very flawed but as long as muslims aren't rioting about the Jesus paintings it's not a problem, the Mohammed cartoons are.

We can't please every single person in this world but when it comes to such a large population we should at least try to find a solution instead of refusing to consider their point of view. Our western values and laws are not some universal truths. They are our believes of the universal truth.

A society where the stronger is allowed to do whatever he wants with the weaker, even kill him can't be dismissed as 'wrong' as easy as that. I don't believe that our values are a result of a divine intervention and I'm quite confident that you agree with me. They are a result of many factors and they could easily have looked very different, and they have.

I admire people standing up for their values and genuinely trying to make the world a better place according to their values but you should never forget that no matter what they are still just your values. Tolerance and respect are the keys. We ask for tolerance from the muslims and they ask for respect.

Today's apologists condemn the Danish cartoons, while ignoring real offenses from the Muslim world. Somehow Muslims inciting hatred toward other religions on a regular basis has become acceptable, while honest analysis of Islam has not. The daily eruptions of anti-Semitic and anti-American sentiment from the Muslim world are hardly pleasant for those on the receiving end. But instead of stifling speech, opponents challenge such expression on the intellectual and political battlefields. Yet some would have us turn a blind eye instead.

How did this double standard arise? The answer is multiculturalism. Not the multiculturalism of different cultures living side by side, but the ideology that renders all cultures equal and therefore none worthy of condemnation. Such moral equivalence allows for the most backward traditions to flourish, even when they are destructive to the society as a whole. When democratic societies find themselves dominated by intolerant cultures to which they have given sanctuary, everyone's freedom is put at risk.

Multiculturalism also has the effect of erasing any unifying culture or nationality in favor of a collection of balkanized groups with nothing in common. In such an environment, integration is forsaken and culture clashes are sure to follow. The Muslim riots in France last year were a prime example. Many a reporter chalked it up to the lack of integration in French society, but few followed that line of thought to its logical conclusion and named multiculturalism as the root cause.

Political correctness is another of multiculturalism's destructive offshoots, and there are certainly those in the West who would shield Muslim populations from legitimate criticism. But they are actually doing more harm than good. Much-needed reform will never be possible until Muslims learn to withstand examination like everyone else. Islam should be subjected to all the scholarly interpretation, self-reflection, humor and even insult that Western religions experience.

Beyond economic need, one of the reasons many Muslims immigrated to Western countries in the first place was to enjoy the sort of freedom denied to them in their native lands. Turning the West into Afghanistan under the Taliban will help no one. While Islam may enjoy equality with other religions, supremacy is another matter. If we are to truly integrate Muslims into our societies, it must be on an equal footing.

One of the most important and hard-won rights in the West is free speech. When free speech is chipped away in the name of avoiding offense, all else is soon forfeit. Western countries will have to decide where to draw the line -- or find themselves overtaken by tyranny.

- Something Is Rotten Outside the State of Denmark (excerpt)

[denoir 0]

We can't please every single person in this world but when it comes to such a large population we should at least try to find a solution instead of refusing to consider their point of view. Our western values and laws are not some universal truths. They are our believes of the universal truth.

Exactly, these are our values, our beliefs. To us they should be at least as important as the values of another culture. And I'm not talking about the cartoons themselves, I'm talking about the right to publish them.

In this case the difference between the two systems of values is irreconcilable. Speaking globally of respect and tolerance is pointless as you can't please one part without insulting the other. You can't ban the publishing of such cartoons without violating the principle of free speech. And you can't publish such cartoons without violating the principles of the Islamic faith.

What you can hope for, but not demand, is some self-restraint on the part of the media. But like it or not, in this part of the world press freedom takes preference over religious law ( and good taste as well ).

So, no matter how tolerant you wish to be and how understanding of other cultures you are there will be cases where is your beliefs and values are not compatible with the beliefs and values of others. There is no middle road. There is no higher ground.

When you reach this point, there is nothing to do but to stand up for your values and your beliefs.

In the context of this controversy however, from an abstract point of view, is it not more reasonable to expect that Western values are going to be the ones that are followed in Western countries like Denmark?

[Abs_01 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Somehow Muslims inciting hatred toward other religions on a regular basis has become acceptable, while honest analysis of Islam has not.

An honest analysis of Islam would be from analyzing the Koran, and the Sharia laws. Judging people by their reactions is not a "honest" way of determening what Islam is.

What else can I say? It's disappointing to watch reasonable people hate each other for nothing other than their beliefs. Many of the messages in this thread, in fact this entire event, has just brought me a lot of sorrow.

Abs

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Somehow Muslims inciting hatred toward other religions on a regular basis has become acceptable, while honest analysis of Islam has not.

An honest analysis of Islam would be from analyzing the Koran, and the Sharia laws. Judging people by their reactions is not a "honest" way of determening what Islam is.

What else can I say? It's disappointing to watch reasonable people hate each other for nothing other than their beliefs. Many of the messages in this thread, in fact this entire event, has just brought me a lot of sorrow.

Abs

The cartoons where made by several different artists. One of them was worse than the other - the one where muhammed have a bomb on his head.

The cartoon was simply made to symbolise that some extremist groups actually use the religion (Muhammed) as an excuse to use force to archive their goals.

The difference between us and them is, that we are used to look with critical eyes on every religion (god knows we have illustrated himself and jesus numerious times - for example, I remember a cartoon of the Christian god walking with president Bush and a couple of dud bombs. They were symbolising the ever returning "god is with us" we see from America.

The reason why we allways have these drawings, is our way to make a somewhat humouristic view on the religions - since we arent religious in the nordic countries. Its really rare you meet a person who actually prays here.. Or even goes to church. We cannot let go of that way of expressing ourself here. And if a new world situation is up - im sure JP wouldnt hesitate bringing more cartoons (i hope not).

[theavonlady 2]

The cartoons where made by several different artists. One of them was worse than the other - the one where muhammed have a bomb on his head.

The cartoon was simply made to symbolise that some extremist groups actually use the religion (Muhammed) as an excuse to use force to archive their goals.

What makes you assume that it's an "excuse", rather than a religious obligation, based on the teachings of the Quran, Hadiths and Surrahs, as well as other writing and Islamic historical precedants, including the acts and behavior of Mohamed himself?

EDIT: Abs is correct. Open the books themselves and read.

[LennyD 0]

Abs is correct. Open the books themselves and read.

Right, you can only discuss thing you know.

But be prepared to be amazed...i was

Just add up calls for violence or murder in the religios books....and then compare

But even so, religion should not be more importand than the basic rules and laws of human rights!

Or ask Salman Rushdi or Souad (germ titel of the book "Bei lebendigem Leib") ....

It is sad that something that is intended to give the people peace, faith and something to live up to is so often the couse of killing... I think to human rights bill would be the best religion!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I also believe that the drawings were unfortunately the wrong way to teach the muslims in the Middle East what the purpose of freedom of press realy is.

I may assume that many muslims now believe that the freedom of press is just a strategy to insult and hurt the sincerest feelings of enemies without the politicians having to open their mouth.

How will you ever convince them now that Freedom of Press has something to do with enlightment, a free mind, with expressing an independant opinion?

Who would believe in these honorable goals of "Freedom of Press" if those drawings were the first examples of it being shown to you?

I would definetly say to myself "what a goddamn farce this is"! And I wouldnt be so wrong about it. During this conflict we see most of our european newspapers honorably fight for their right to express their free opinion. But how often do we see one Media companies taking an action for injunction against the other, just because something had been published that did not please them? A lot of times!

So at the moment we see a lot of opportunistic talking especially from representatives of the Media, but they themselves prostitute this right of Free Speech most, turn and twist it the way it is needed and desired!

[theavonlady 2]

I also believe that the drawings were unfortunately the wrong way to teach the muslims in the Middle East what the purpose of freedom of press realy is.

Are you aware at all how this began in the first place last September?

Check your facts.

[Supah 0]

Something I heard on the local airbase, Dutch F-16's have fired warning shots with the 20mm cannons at a crowd near Maymana in the north of Afghanistan as the locals tried to storm a norwegian base there. So far I've read no reports of injuries so I think they didnt fire directly at the crowd That would have been really messy!

Ooooh, dutch planes too? Heard that a US F16 flew low over the crowd, as a "show of force" as a norwegian colonel or something called it...

damn, what if the pilot had missed and hit the crowd...that would indeed be quite a mess

Only Dutch Falcons participated in this incident AFAIK. Apparently runs were made as low as 30 feet on full afterburner, if that doesnt scare you away then you are hell bent on causing trouble.

[mojo-jojo 0]

But even so, religion should not be more importand than the basic rules and laws of human rights!

Hoping that Islam endorses human rights is like hoping that Microsoft makes Windows compatible with Linux.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I also believe that the drawings were unfortunately the wrong way to teach the muslims in the Middle East what the purpose of freedom of press realy is.

Are you aware at all how this began in the first place last September?

Check your facts.

My comment wasnt about "how it all began", it is about a stereotypical muslim in the middle East who is shown these images and being told "this is freedom of press"! What would he think?

This is not about facts, its a scenario!

[EiZei 0]

My comment wasnt about "how it all began", it is about a stereotypical muslim in the middle East who is shown these images and being told "this is freedom of press"! What would he think?

This is not about facts, its a scenario!

That's what they are told by their repressive goverments regardless of the real situtation.

[LennyD 0]

But even so, religion should not be more importand than the basic rules and laws of human rights!

Hoping that Islam endorses human rights is like hoping that Microsoft makes Windows compatible with Linux.

lol...good one...but sadly very true (as even the last idiot should notice by now)

Mrs. Avalon right here...i've learned that the most people reacting hostile to the cartoons here have no idea what happend. Some even belive this crap about burning the koran in denmark (nazi style on public places).

My personal favorite is Ayatollah "fairy-tale Ali" Khamenei's version: The cartoons are only an israeli reaction, 'cos they are angry about the elections favoring Hamas....

Well, thanks Ali for make us aware of the new israeli time machine...Cartoons (sep 05 vs elections jan 06)

I would like to learn how reaction are in the us or israel...public opinions not those of the leaders (i can read them via internet)...

[Blake 0]

Oh great, today Finnish national broadcasting company (YLE) has just issued an official ban on showing of the Muhammed cartoons in any of it's programs 'though talking about the issue in scetch programs is not directly banned':

http://www.hs.fi/ulkomaa....8696046

They've made gross and outrageous jokes about Christian figures almost constantly but now people shoud just shut up when it comes to Islam. I wonder what's at the end of this road. Some EU-wide ban is not that far away I think.

[LennyD 0]

...just seen it myself...

does this one fit in there then? ->

http://img157.imageshack.us/my.php?image=cfcartoon0oz.jpg

Or is that offencive, too? I mean maybe some guy at cnn is claiming his rights in now?

France is very carfull about comments now (think of the riots they had...and the majority involved in them)....and here there are more and more politicians taking the head down and trying to awoid a comment.

[Blake 0]

Rioting, death threats and torching of embassies DOES work.

This is a good signal to all those fundamental muslims who want to have it their way. Appeasement may work today to brush things under carpet but pressure might build up and after 20 years or so when something similiar happens results can be much more devastating...

[Rikki Tikki Tavi 0]

Most of the support I've seen around my area (Southeast U.S.) is in favor of the newspapers. Letters to the editor in our papers have been fairly overwhelming in support of the Danish. Someone even said the Birmingham News should print the cartoon every day to show solidarity with the Danish.