European Politics Thread.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Oh I meant if they noticed that immigrated girls are highly overrepresented in rapes in the private sphere. But they haven't.

It would surprise me if non ethnic norwegian girls are over-represented in the statistics where the offender is known to be non ethnic as well.

However, there's reason to believe that non ethnic norwegian girls raped by ethnic norwegians is on an increase.

I fail to see the logic in what you say simply because there are a lot more norwegian girls than non ethnic norwegian girls that are raped at home! What are you suggesting?

Quote[/b] ]That's your opinion.  So my opinion is that the statistics are reliable, proportion wise.

It is my opinion and ought to be yours as well because the statistics only take known cases into account. Thus you cannot base responsable politics on that basis.

Furthermore the demographic picture is somewhat different meaning there are percentage wise more young men among the immigrants on the whole than the rest of the norwegian population:

Quote[/b] ]En forklaring pĺ at innvandrere har hřyere registrert kriminalitet kan vćre at man har sammenlignet ikke-sammenlignbare grupper. Det har stor betydning nĺr man snakker om innvandrere og kriminalitet at man tar i betraktning at innvandrerbefolkningen har en annen demografisk profil enn resten av befolkningen.

Quote[/b] ]Like I said, they would have noticed if the proportions were reversed in the private sphere.

Again, there are black holes in the knowledge about rapes in the domestic sphere simply because most are not reported. An exception would be in rural areas aswell as up north where norwegian men have brought home "russerbruder" . Allthough we lack statistics (I'm certain there will be soon) it is highly likely that immigrant women will be over represented as rape victims some local places simply because of the nature of the relationship and lack of respect from norwegian men who consider these women to be consumer goods instead of human beings.

Quote[/b] ]ehh I looked over it a little. It tries to explains why immigrants are criminal, such as that they are often poorer, cultural differences etc. Yep -- but they're still overrepresented in many crimes of violent nature. The reason why doesn't really make much of a difference, no one has been saying it's in their blood and that they couldn't be different.

Again you forget the demographic picture. You obviously assume that we are talking about two comparative entities albeit one on a smaller scale. Had there been relatively more norwegian young men than young immigrant men it would be the other way round - so in a way I'll give you right if you discriminately forget the demographics. However, the combined fact that we don't know for sure that immigrants are responsable for rapes to a lesser or greater extent because of incomplete statistics and because the total amount of offenders are less than the total amount of crimes I'll say you are informed by prejudice if not rather common misconceptions.

Quote[/b] ]If you want to point out something specific, please make it bold or just post that part, if you like.

Yes, you are probably right! It'll help to avoid selective reading!

Quote[/b] ]No. It means that the probability is exactly the same, except that the number of possible perpetrator is a teeny tiny bit lower than supposed.

Too lazy to answer this myself - so I'll just post a quote from Denoirs reply to you earlier on page 8 :

Quote[/b] ]Den brottstyp där överrepresentationen är som störst är vĺldtäkter, där närmare 40 procent av gärningsmännen är invandrare. Denna uppgift har ocksĺ ofta använts som slagträ i olika propagandaformer. En inte ovidkommande information i det sammanhanget är att de personer som begĺr dessa brott kan räknas i hundratal (storleksordningen 500 fall pĺ ett ĺr) medan det finns närmare en miljon invandrare. Det är sĺ att säga inte speciellt ovanligt att det i en grupp individer, oavsett vilken, finns en promilleandel bestĺende av â€rötäggâ€.

Samma förhĺllande gäller även vid personrĺn, en annan brottstyp där invandrarandelen är högre än genomsnittet (uppemot 30 procent). Här handlar det om ett antal ungdomsgäng som specialiserat sig pĺ denna typ av brottslighet. I och med att dessa enskilda gäng kan begĺ ett stort antal rĺn under ett ĺr, ĺker

siffrorna upp.

[denoir 0]

The numbers also have to be taken into context. Over representation, sure, but is it releavant? Is it a problem for soceity?

Well, let's see. If we kicked out all immigrants out of Sweden and replaced with average Swedish people, that segment would be responsible for 10% of the crimes instead of 20.

Yearly, in Sweden, there are about 1.25 million crimes reported (http://www.bra.se/). So that would drop to 1.1 million crimes reported, which is truly nothing dramatic.

Simply put, that's not a significant problem for society.

As for the statistics, the mapping between immigrants and crime, while interesting is interpreted in a very questionable manner.

Post hoc, propter hoc (after the fact, therefore because of the fact) - a common logical fallacy.

According to BRĹ over 87% of the criminals belong to the lowest quartile on the income scale. The 25% poorest people are over represented by a factor of four. Furthermore according to SCB, immigrants are over represented there by a factor of five. So when taking economic situation in consiredation, one sees that they're actually less criminal than Swedes that are in the same economic situation. And that's even without taking into consideration various social factors. It would be interesting to see an unemplyed <-> criminal mapping, but I havn't been able to find any such statistics.

There's noting strange or unusual about it. The point is however that it kills the idea that ethnicity has anything to do with it. At least not in any direct manner.

[Baphomet 0]

I just read this ... yeah shoot me for actually reading an article on a website like Fox News. However. If the accounts of the events in the article are true. I'd be very concerned. Even if the total of reported crimes attributed to immigrants in sweden as a whole was only an additional 150,000.

Unless of course there's clear evidence to support the concept that it is just as common an occurence for ethnic swedes to be perpetrating that kind of organized violence and coercion.

Then again Fox news has a history of over hyping or sensationalizing news stories for obvious reasons. If those are the circumstances which are required for Osama Bin Laden to not consider a country threatening, as mentioned in his last video broadcast in which he mentioned not having Sweden on his hit-list. So to speak. Then I really don't think those living conditions would be any better or worse than fearing an attack.

[kerosene 0]

Yeah, that article started the conversation preety much, look at the tone of it, theres lots of implications in, the way the unemployment level of 90% is described and not put into any kind of context for example.

They describe it as :four-part series about the Muslim population in Europe

2 articles about of sweden, one on spain, and one on gential mutilation. Gasp, people in emergency rooms shout at medical staff, only an evil muslim would do that, this is what happens to liberal societies, they get taken over by the muslims.

No attempt is made to put these incidences into any kind of broader picture, or balance it by showing places where a muslim community dosent have any major problems. Just four scare stories that say muslims are evil and liberal europeans are stupid.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]Malmo's main mosque was recently set ablaze by arsonists. When firefighters arrived on the scene, they were attacked by stone throwers.

That's a bit worse than people yelling in an emergency room in my opinion, however I do understand your point.

[brgnorway 0]

In Norway the pr business have a special word for this: dirt/shit package! This is more common than many suspect. Even on this forum you'll find several references to a certain "organisation" responsible for a lot of it in todays media picture: MEMRI

There are many negative (understandably) opinions on this organisation. Please take the time to read:

Journalist Brian Whitaker in The Guardian

[Baphomet 0]

All I can say is I'm thankful I live in a province where people like that would -not- get away with that sort of behavior.

The kind of province full of rednecks and guns. I'd take pro-life rednecks over angry ethnics making certain neighborhoods dangerous to travel in any day.

[iNeo 0]

Too lazy to answer this myself - so I'll just post a quote from Denoirs reply to you earlier on page 8 :

Quote[/b] ]Den brottstyp där överrepresentationen är som störst är vĺldtäkter, där närmare 40 procent av gärningsmännen är invandrare. Denna uppgift har ocksĺ ofta använts som slagträ i olika propagandaformer. En inte ovidkommande information i det sammanhanget är att de personer som begĺr dessa brott kan räknas i hundratal (storleksordningen 500 fall pĺ ett ĺr) medan det finns närmare en miljon invandrare. Det är sĺ att säga inte speciellt ovanligt att det i en grupp individer, oavsett vilken, finns en promilleandel bestĺende av â€rötäggâ€.

Samma förhĺllande gäller även vid personrĺn, en annan brottstyp där invandrarandelen är högre än genomsnittet (uppemot 30 procent). Här handlar det om ett antal ungdomsgäng som specialiserat sig pĺ denna typ av brottslighet. I och med att dessa enskilda gäng kan begĺ ett stort antal rĺn under ett ĺr, ĺker

siffrorna upp.

Wtf? What I said earlier stands - the probability of being robbed by an immigrant is the same, but the number of different possible perpetrators is a little bit lower.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]Oh I meant if they noticed that immigrated girls are highly overrepresented in rapes in the private sphere. But they haven't.

It would surprise me if non ethnic norwegian girls are over-represented in the statistics where the offender is known to be non ethnic as well.

However, there's reason to believe that non ethnic norwegian girls raped by ethnic norwegians is on an increase.

I fail to see the logic in what you say simply because there are a lot more norwegian girls than non ethnic norwegian girls that are raped at home! What are you suggesting?

I don't get what you're saying.

What I said was that Save the Children etc would have noticed if immigrated girls were highly overrepresented as rape victims at home, no matter the ethnicity of the rapist.

"because there are a lot more norwegian girls than non ethnic norwegian girls that are raped at home"

What? Recently you were saying that immigrated girls are probably overrepresented when it comes to that.

Quote[/b] ]It is my opinion and ought to be yours as well because the statistics only take known cases into account. Thus you cannot base responsable politics on that basis.

Quote[/b] ] Allthough we lack statistics (I'm certain there will be soon) it is highly likely that immigrant women will be over represented as rape victims some local places simply because of the nature of the relationship and lack of respect from norwegian men who consider these women to be consumer goods instead of human beings.

You are saying immigrated girls/women are overrepresented as rape victims at home (?).

1. We know a lot of rapes aren't reported. What makes you think all of those are commited at home, and that all rapes outdoors are reported?

2. Why would those raped at home not report?

3. Since most of them don't report, how do you even know there are any? Maybe all of those that don't report were raped outdoors?

4. Why would it be only immigrated girls/women that are raped at home and don't report the rapes?

The situation is sick and you try to defend it when statistics show that immigrants are 4 times overrepresented as rapists.

Sick.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]If you want to point out something specific, please make it bold or just post that part, if you like.

Yes, you are probably right! It'll help to avoid selective reading!

Argue by yourself and refer to what you find important to prove your point instead of saying "read this" and expect me to read two-thousand words that are barely relevant. If you didn't expect me to read it, then what the hell are you complaining about.

[iNeo 0]

If we kicked out all immigrants out of Sweden and replaced with average Swedish people, that segment would be responsible for 10% of the crimes instead of 20.

Uhm, replace? Had we not had immigration, the ethnic Swedish population would be the same as it is today...

Quote[/b] ]Yearly, in Sweden, there are about 1.25 million crimes reported (http://www.bra.se/). So that would drop to 1.1 million crimes reported, which is truly nothing dramatic.

...so it would drop to 1 million crimes reported, which is 4/5th or 80% of today's.

You need to think of the fact that a lot of the violent crimes would be erased, while other types of crimes would still be here, since immigrants are overrepresented with violent crimes.

Quote[/b] ]There's noting strange or unusual about it. The point is however that it kills the idea that ethnicity has anything to do with it. At least not in any direct manner.

It doesn't matter if it's the color of their skin, their culture or the segregation. It's a problem.

Quote[/b] ]Simply put, that's not a significant problem for society.

You don't think the ghettoes are significant problems for society? The cops, firefighters and ambulance doctors getting attacked isn't a problem? All the things the Fox articles brought up aren't problems?

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Malmo's main mosque was recently set ablaze by arsonists. When firefighters arrived on the scene, they were attacked by stone throwers.

That's a bit worse than people yelling in an emergency room in my opinion, however I do understand your point.

I'm very sceptic towards news stories like that! The reason is because of lack of context, any possible factors taking place before the event etc.

What is even worse is that the whole article series propose only problems with anything vaguely connected with muslims.

You tell me - what about the good stories. Do you think Fox will tell any?

[Baphomet 0]

No Fox won't. I mentioned in my first post regarding this that Fox has a notorious reputation for being sort of the media outlet for one-sided minded republican viewpoints, not to mention the fact that they overhype their stories.

My main concern is simply toward that type of behavior, regardless of the ethnicity of who is perpetrating it.

It seriously bothers me that any group of people would try to push some agenda of discord towards another ethnic group in that manner if of course that's the case.

Again the credibility of Fox News is in my opinion justifiably questioned by you in this manner. It is nevertheless disconcerting.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Wtf? What I said earlier stands - the probability of being robbed by an immigrant is the same, but the number of different possible perpetrators is a little bit lower.

Why don't you try to use your brain a little - your supposed to think with it!

You are making the ethnic non swedes representative for what a relative few commit. If you don't understand that it is because you don't want to or because your not able to!

Quote[/b] ]I don't get what you're saying.

No shit!

Quote[/b] ]What I said was that Save the Children etc would have noticed if immigrated girls were highly overrepresented as rape victims at home, no matter the ethnicity of the rapist.

How on earth would that be possible all the time there are so many more norwegian/swedish girls compared to the "immigrant" girls. Why the hell would they be over represented? Provide some logic thought for once!

My point in mentioning the uncertainty in the statistics was because of the numbers we're not aware of simply because most rapes are not reported - due to these events taking part in the domestic sphere! And then you manage to say that "all this is very weird" because you obviously haven't been present when various organisations have claimed (including the police) that the statistics doesn't tell the truth.

Your memory is very selective!

Quote[/b] ]What? Recently you were saying that immigrated girls are probably overrepresented when it comes to that.

In some local areas yes! You propably know why! Ever hear of the concept "russerbrudor" ?

Or am I wrong in suggesting a vast number of swedish men bringing home women from Polen, Russa, Thailand etc. to see the lovely swedish rural landscape - if they're allowed to between the rapes taking place in the kitchen and bedroom.

Quote[/b] ]You are saying immigrated girls/women are overrepresented as rape victims at home (?).

You are conveniently forgetting the context. See above answer!

Quote[/b] ]1. We know a lot of rapes aren't reported. What makes you think all of those are commited at home, and that all rapes outdoors are reported?

Because of the very nature of rapes taking place at home! They most often are related to the offender as a next of kin or close friend! Outdoor rapes most often than not are commited by unknown offenders. You tell me if a girl walking in a dark alleway somewhere in Stockholm will likely be raped by a stranger or here uncle? Let's say I won't place my bets on the uncle!

Quote[/b] ]2. Why would those raped at home not report?

Because of two factors! Shame and would the rest of the family possibly believe it! Would the rest of the family break up as a result of her reporting it to the police? Does she want her children to know if their father raped her?

If your uncle/grandfather or whatever raped you - would you easily tell your family about it?

Quote[/b] ]3. Since most of them don't report, how do you even know there are any? Maybe all of those that don't report were raped outdoors?

Because many women end up in emergency without reporting it to the police. It's in my last post to you somewhere I believe!

Quote[/b] ]4. Why would it be only immigrated girls/women that are raped at home and don't report the rapes?

Why would they. Maybe the same reason why the norwegian/swedish girls don't report it? Shame, will they be believed, will the family fall apart?

Quote[/b] ]The situation is sick and you try to defend it when statistics show that immigrants are 4 times overrepresented as rapists.

Sick.

You may call me sick if I'm trying to understand the situation instead of being blatant prejudistic like you! It's your call, I don't want to judge people as being sick or immoral. I hope you one day let yourself be informed by something else than racist inspired thoughts.

You see, I might be wrong of course, but I believe the reason you use are very much like the reasons used against the jews in the thirties (before and after also of course) : they steal, they kill, they rape and they are only looking to take advantages.

Am I right in suspecting you belong to Sverigedemokraterna ?

[denoir 0]

What I said earlier stands - the probability of being robbed by an immigrant is the same, but the number of different possible perpetrators is a little bit lower.

No, you are more than twice as likely to get robbed (assaulted) by a Swede than by an immigrant. 7:3 to be exact.

Quote[/b] ]You don't think the ghettoes are significant problems for society? The cops, firefighters and ambulance doctors getting attacked isn't a problem? All the things the Fox articles brought up aren't problems?

They are problems, but they're not significant problems. Relative percentage and over representation show where there's room for improvement, but it is the absolute numbers that matter. It's the actual number of crimes that matter, not some abstract representation of how large percentage relative the size of some arbitrary group.

If you pick a crime, there's a five times bigger probability that it was perpetrated by a Swede. So from the point of view of crime in Sweden, immigrants don't represent a significant problem.

Furthermore what is often omitted is that we in fact don't really have a crime problem in Sweden.

As for the Fox article, well, that's Fox for you. Attacking muslims is a part of their regular Bush-über-alles propaganda. What a great opportunity for the christian right to 1) blame stuff on the muslims 2) criticise Europe.

If you wish to see a good sample of what Fox writes about other groups, check out this article on the French. It should give you an idea of what kind of "journalism" we're talking about.

[Frisbee 0]

If you wish to see a good sample of what Fox writes about other groups, check out this article on the French. It should give you an idea of what kind of "journalism" we're talking about.

Haha, bookmarking material. If someone brings up Fox I can just paste it.

[Supah 0]

The sad thing is to me and you (amongst europeans) this just makes us laugh and chuckle. We see this and laugh. The average american from the jesus/red states takes this seriously. Recently the just people of alabama chose to keep parts of their constitution that enforce segregation in public transport. "Either you are with us or against us".

[Supah 0]

meanwhile in the Ukraine someone took the time to write this editorial for the New York Times. You might need to register to read it, which I can really recommend, its free so why not?

Quote[/b] ]

Let My People Go

By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Published: December 4, 2004

KIEV, Ukraine — Here's a suggestion for President Bush from the protesters behind the democratic "orange revolution" here: Wear an orange tie.

"If he wore an orange tie, people here would be crying," said Yuri Maluta, a protester from Lviv. "It would show that the American president supports democracy here."

Advertisement

The request says something about the lighthearted and pro-American spirit on the streets. Since my father grew up in what is now southwestern Ukraine, I decided to come here to join my people - and I found that waging revolution has rarely been such fun.

Young people enveloped in orange scarves, hats and ribbons alternately chant slogans for freedom, boogie to rock music, eat oranges, warm up and flirt at McDonald's, and disappear into their downtown "tent city" to make love, not war.

The protest organizers have placed gorgeous young women in the vanguard of confrontations with troops, so the troops will be too dazzled to club them.

Most Ukrainians love the U.S., and to be an American here - any American - is to be a rock star. Protesters overhear me speaking English and line up to ask me to autograph their orange ribbons with a big "U.S.A."

Yet for all the giddiness among the protesters here, particularly after the Supreme Court's landmark ruling in their favor yesterday, this is as much about Russia as it is about Ukraine. And the first thing to say is that Vladimir Putin has behaved utterly disgracefully.

Mr. Putin seems to regard the Ukrainians as Russia's serfs, bound to obey the will of their master. Mr. Putin was a co-conspirator with Ukraine's outgoing president, Leonid Kuchma, to tilt the campaign and fix the election in favor of the pro-Moscow candidate, Viktor Yanukovich, whose criminal history (he served almost four years for robbery and assault as a young man) would make him a fine Putin stooge.

Mr. Putin visited Ukraine twice during the campaign to help Mr. Yanukovich, used the Russian news media to promote him and then congratulated him publicly before the results of the stolen election had even been completely counted. President Bush and other Western leaders need to make it clear to Mr. Putin that he has no right to extend his quasi dictatorship to other peoples.

Sure, it's traumatic for the Russians to have seen their country sink from a superpower to a third-rate economy whose old colonies are now busy joining NATO. But Mr. Putin has undermined Russian democracy, brutalized Chechnya and barely helped in curbing weapons of mass destruction. We don't need to be so solicitous of such a bully.

I was among the crowds in Independence Square when images of Mr. Putin were shown on the huge screens. The crowd yelled a deafening "boo." We should be joining in.

Colin Powell strongly denounced the rigged election, and Ukrainians will remember that American support with gratitude for a long time to come. But Mr. Bush and the White House haven't been as outspoken as either Mr. Powell or the Europeans, and that's a mistake.

Mr. Bush is working through the Europeans, and especially the Poles, to achieve a solution, and he may fear that too public an American role would anger the Russians and revive the cold war. Those are fair concerns.

But this is the moment of truth for Ukraine, when Mr. Putin is trying to thwart the challenger, Viktor Yushchenko, by squelching a democratic election, and we need to stand foursquare with the democrats.

"Bush has to push more strongly and decisively on Ukraine to be democratic," said Bogdan Prysyazhnyuk, a young lawyer who is backing the orange revolution.

"The Europeans are doing something, much more than Bush is," noted Natalya Slobodyan, a journalism student who, like many young women, has dyed her hair orange. That's a common view on the street, where the Europeans are seen as standing up to Mr. Putin. Mr. Bush's behind-the-scenes role is less appreciated.

I'm glad that Europe is finally getting its act together, after bungling the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990's and studiously ignoring the catastrophe in Darfur this year. But when a historic tide is running in our favor, our president should be riding it at least abreast of the Europeans, not cheering them from the shore.

Or he might at least choose an orange tie.

Too me it really shows that the US is dropping the ball when it comes to foreign affairs and the EU is more and more becoming a power in its own right. The Bush Administration had a great opportunity too create, or further allready existing, goodwill amongst the population of a foreign country but apparently thinks more of appeasing a not so democratic russian regime.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Too me it really shows that the US is dropping the ball when it comes to foreign affairs and the EU is more and more becoming a power in its own right. The Bush Administration had a great opportunity too create, or further allready existing, goodwill amongst the population of a foreign country but apparently thinks more of appeasing a not so democratic russian regime.

Whilst you are pointing the finger at the US, you should also point it at Germany in this case. Germany is one of the largest/loudest pro-Russian voices in the EU, and do you know why? Because of economic interest...there is this huge article on spiegel.de right now about how Siemens is expecting a huge contract in the Urals and Siberia to modernise all of Russia's trains. Hardly surprising that Schroder keeps on siding with Putin. Ever since Putin came into the Reichs...err...Bundestag to address parliament in German, they have been the biggest buds.

[Supah 0]

Whilst you are pointing the finger at the US, you should also point it at Germany in this case. Germany is one  of the largest/loudest pro-Russian voices in the EU, and do you know why? Because of economic interest...there is this huge article on spiegel.de right now about how Siemens is expecting a huge contract in the Urals and Siberia to modernise all of Russia's trains. Hardly surprising that Schroder keeps on siding with Putin. Ever since Putin came into the Reichs...err...Bundestag to address parliament in German, they have been the biggest buds.

Politicians will be politicians And with Germanies high unemployment rates part of his job is to try and secure contracts for german companies. But I think that such short term items should and will take a backseat once the bigger issues come up. One could argue however that trade is a very good way to influence another nation. Look at how Capitalisme Lite is changing China and giving its populace more and more of a say in the countries running. In dutch we have saying that goes a little like this "if you point a finger at another four fingers are pointing towards yourself"

[Foxtrot87 0]

Quote[/b] ] I found that waging revolution has rarely been such fun.

Yeah, fun indeed. Wait till the economy gets broken because of these people who don't go to work.

Quote[/b] ]"If he wore an orange tie, people here would be crying," said Yuri Maluta, a protester from Lviv. "It would show that the American president supports democracy here."

I'd be crying too because this opposition claims to be democratic but it does not take into account that millions of people voted for Yanukovich. people say that the elections were cheated but no one from this orange mass understands that both sides cheated.

Quote[/b] ]Most Ukrainians love the U.S., and to be an American here - any American - is to be a rock star. Protesters overhear me speaking English and line up to ask me to autograph their orange ribbons with a big "U.S.A."

Yup, the people on the Western Ukraine never liked Russia. Here's a reminder: the eastern parts with its industry are now feeding the whole Ukraine. The eastern parts voted for Yanukovich because Russians live there. The eastern part was given to Ukraine during the times of USSR and were not taken back. I propose dividing Ukraine into 2 parts. Give Russia the eastern part back. Then we'll see how West is going to accept Ukraine which won't have its strong industry but will have an economical crisis.

Quote[/b] ]Mr. Putin seems to regard the Ukrainians as Russia's serfs, bound to obey the will of their master.

This is totally untrue. I just want to answer in the same disgusting manner as the author wrote this article.

Quote[/b] ]Mr. Putin visited Ukraine twice during the campaign to help Mr. Yanukovich, used the Russian news media to promote him and then congratulated him publicly before the results of the stolen election had even been completely counted. President Bush and other Western leaders need to make it clear to Mr. Putin that he has no right to extend his quasi dictatorship to other peoples.

If Putin supports Yanukovich then why can't he visit him and have a conference? And how did Putin help Yanukovich? Did he bring a bag full of fake voting papers where the box against Yanukovich's name was marked?

President Bush and other Western leaders perfectly understand what they need Ukraine, Georgia, etc for. Putin is not trying to establish dictatorship over these people, he's trying to gain partners.

Quote[/b] ]Sure, it's traumatic for the Russians to have seen their country sink from a superpower to a third-rate economy whose old colonies are now busy joining NATO. But Mr. Putin has undermined Russian democracy, brutalized Chechnya and barely helped in curbing weapons of mass destruction. We don't need to be so solicitous of such a bully.

Yes, very traumatic, i'm sitting and crying for "good old" Soviet times. So called "old colonies" are joining NATO and thus Russia gets surrounded. Talk about partnership with Western countries and working together. Working on what? On getting Russia into a corner? I don't like some of Putin's reforms and his decisions on the Chechen problem. "barely helped in curbing weapons of mass destruction"-which weapons? Do you mean Iraq? "Old colonies"-excuse me, Iraq again. The democratic West should pay attention to its own problems too. " We don't need to be so solicitous of such a bully"-maybe i'm too emotional now, maybe i shouldn't even post an answer to such an article.

Quote[/b] ]Mr. Bush is working through the Europeans, and especially the Poles, to achieve a solution, and he may fear that too public an American role would anger the Russians and revive the cold war. Those are fair concerns.

So is Bush spreading his "quasi dictatorship" over the Europeans and Poland in particular? The problem of NATO arises again. If it was created to oppose the USSR and if the threat from the communists is now gone then why is it needed? "To fight terrorism"-they say. NATO is getting new members, the USA builds a radar in Georgia which scans half of Russia, so who's reviving the cold war?

Ah, Europe, USA and Russia, when will you become true partners? Perhaps this post will not change people's point of view but i couldn't sit here and keep my mouth shut (and my fingers were itching, had to use the keyboard).

[iNeo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Wtf? What I said earlier stands - the probability of being robbed by an immigrant is the same, but the number of different possible perpetrators is a little bit lower.

Why don't you try to use your brain a little - your supposed to think with it!

You are making the ethnic non swedes representative for what a relative few commit. If you don't understand that it is because you don't want to or because your not able to!

Say there is three criminal Swedes and one criminal immigrant.

The Swedes commit a crime each during the year,

while the immigrant commits 10 crimes during the year.

The number of criminal immigrants is lower in this case,

but the probability of being the victim of criminality from an immigrant is larger than the same of a Swede.

See what I mean when I say the probability remains the same although the number of criminals may be lower?

I don't think the number is that much lower anyway,

and you're forgetting that immigrants are overrepresented in violent crimes, the ones that affect you.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]What I said was that Save the Children etc would have noticed if immigrated girls were highly overrepresented as rape victims at home, no matter the ethnicity of the rapist.

How on earth would that be possible all the time there are so many more norwegian/swedish girls compared to the "immigrant" girls. Why the hell would they be over represented? Provide some logic thought for once!

I wasn't saying that that's how it is, I'm saying that they would notice if it was! Because you were saying they were overrepresented.

Quote[/b] ]In some local areas yes! You propably know why! Ever hear of the concept "russerbrudor" ?

Or am I wrong in suggesting a vast number of swedish men bringing home women from Polen, Russa, Thailand etc. to see the lovely swedish rural landscape - if they're allowed to between the rapes taking place in the kitchen and bedroom.

Mmm I don't think that's a large number,

and you can't assume any proportions without full coverage statistics can you...

Quote[/b] ]Because of the very nature of rapes taking place at home! They most often are related to the offender as a next of kin or close friend! Outdoor rapes most often than not are commited by unknown offenders. You tell me if a girl walking in a dark alleway somewhere in Stockholm will likely be raped by a stranger or here uncle? Let's say I won't place my bets on the uncle!

Quote[/b] ]Because of two factors! Shame and would the rest of the family possibly believe it! Would the rest of the family break up as a result of her reporting it to the police? Does she want her children to know if their father raped her?

If your uncle/grandfather or whatever raped you - would you easily tell your family about it?

Quote[/b] ]Because many women end up in emergency without reporting it to the police. It's in my last post to you somewhere I believe!

Quote[/b] ]Why would they. Maybe the same reason why the norwegian/swedish girls don't report it? Shame, will they be believed, will the family fall apart?

Yep, so I'm guessing you're no longer claiming immigrant girls are overrepresented as rape victims at home.

Up until this last quotation it has sounded like you were assuming only immigrant girls are raped at home and don't report it.

Quote[/b] ]I don't want to judge people as being sick or immoral.

No? But you want to judge them as racists, dumb-asses etc? Or maybe just me.

[iNeo 0]

If you pick a crime, there's a five times bigger probability that it was perpetrated by a Swede.

People in different situations, or whatever, you know what I mean, commit different types of crimes.

Speeding for example doesn't really affect anyone as long as no accident occurs.

So if you pick a crime that you're likely to be affected of,

it's hardly "five times bigger probability that it was perpetrated by a Swede."

For example the probability of being raped by an immigrant is four times bigger than by a Swede. Provided you're a Swedish teen girl...

[iNeo 0]

Am I right in suspecting you belong to Sverigedemokraterna ?

How do you mean, "belong to?" I'm not a member of any party or party's youth association.

I haven't really looked into SD's politics apart from the immigration part, so I can't say if I support them to 100%.

The thing about immigration critical parties is what should the rest of their poltics be about? - A socialist that's critical to massive immigration might not agree with the rest of the party's politics, and is he ready to switch only because of immigration politics? I don't think a lot of people are...

[denoir 0]

For example the probability of being raped by an immigrant is four times bigger than by a Swede. Provided you're a Swedish teen girl...

No, probability of getting raped by a Swede: 60%, probability of getting raped by an immigrant: 40%.

Probability of getting assaulted by a Swede: 70%, probability of getting assualted by an immigrant: 30%

Probability of a random picked criminal to be Swedish: 80%, probability of a random picked criminal to be an immigrant: 20%.

And no, this does not include parking fines. As stated on their website BRĹ the statistics is concerning brottsbalken.

[denoir 0]

The thing about immigration critical parties is what should the rest of their poltics be about? - A socialist that's critical to massive immigration might not agree with the rest of the party's politics, and is he ready to switch only because of immigration politics? I don't think a lot of people are...

Well, and there's the little fact that your views are not supported by the majority of the Swedish people, who overwhelmingly support immigration, even from countries outside the EU.

Svenskarna positiva till arbetskraftsinvandring [DN]

Work force immigration from other EU countries:

Pro: 90%

Contra: 9%

Work force immigration from non-EU countries:

Pro: 70%

Contra: 30%

[iNeo 0]

For example the probability of being raped by an immigrant is four times bigger than by a Swede. Provided you're a Swedish teen girl...

No, probability of getting raped by a Swede: 60%, probability of getting raped by an immigrant: 40%.

Oops, meant overrepresentation.

Quote[/b] ]And no, this does not include parking fines. As stated on their website BRĹ the statistics is concerning brottsbalken.

ok. But where does it say that on BRĹ? Can't find it.

What kind of crimes are in brottsbalken?

Wikipedia says:

"svensk lag som innehĺller bestämmelser om brott som t.ex. mord, misshandel, stöld och bedrägeri"

Note "fraud."