USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Supah 0]

If you think you were slandered and that we think america is stupid and wrong you didn't get the point. America did a lot of good in the world but it is now fast evolving into a sort of country we in europe have had too and have had bad experiences with. I know a lot of americans who are thoroughly nice and decent people.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, we do try to protect our businesses. To not do so is folly. Are you saying Iraq was better off with Saddam Hussein? The people over there seem pretty happy (the news media's views notwithstanding)

Were the Chillean people happier without allende and with Pinochet?

Were the nicaraguan people happier for america sponsoring a bloody civil war there?

Were the argentinian people happier with fidela?

Were the Iranians happier without Mossadegh and with the shah? They REALLY showed what they thought a couple of years later. Iran would have been better off without the shah and with Mossadegh's succesors. They were on a stabile democratic path untill Mossadegh crossed US petroleum interests and the CIA overthrew him and installed the massively unpopular shah. unease grew and radical islamists played into this to get into power. Iran is the hell hole it is today because US intelligence services made it so.

Do you think the Iraqi's are really having such a great time being blown to bits all the time? Who do you think armed and helped saddam for all those years while he was murdering his own people in places like hallabja? But as long as he fought the result of america's earlier mistake at nation building , khomeini, it was all milk and honey. Who sold him the guns, shells and the mustard gas he used on the kurds?

I do not think any bussiness interest are worth distorting a countries future. You think it is ok for 10.000's to have been tortured, raped and murdered so you could drive a even bigger car? Do you really lack empathy for your fellow man to such a degree?

Quote[/b] ]You have been checking out the mainstream media, haven't you. In case you don't know, Iraq has a constitution. We are making progress. Look at what happened in Gulf War '91. Did Saddam's forces have a good time? No, they got their asses kicked because of American military power.

Well that constitution must have happened over night because last I heard the deadline for its presentation to the parliament had been over run and a new one had to be set. I have been checked mainstream media, american TV (CNN, Fox "news") and have been reading the New York Times, I also watch the BBC, Dutch news and read newspapers from the netherlands. What newssource would you approve of?

No matter how you twist it for all your military might the insurgency is there and you have not been able to keep it under control. We are now seeing a process of "Iraqification" which looks like it will be every bit as dissastrous as Vietnamification was. In dealing with the muslim world it is important to place yourself in a position where you can claim the moral high ground and you have failed miserably at that. While your old allies here in europe can see the forest for the trees in america's dubious attempts at international politics and go "Ah but they mean well!" the middle east doesn't see those nuances.

In many nations in europe there has always been a great amount of gratitude for what american servicemen and women did for us in ww2. I think its save to say people like GWB and yourself did not serve in that war. The america that liberated us no longer exist. Men like roosevelt, truman and marshall deserved and got a lot of gratitude from europe. To claim you are somehow intitled to that too merely because you are from the same country is rather distastefull, it diminishes what these great people did.

I've looked it up in my bible and it clearly says "Gij zult niet doden" or in english "Thou shallt not kill". You must have a different version of the book then. Nowhere does it say in mine that governments have the right to kill people. It does say to "Love thy neighbour like thyself", "Let he who is without sin cast the first rock" and to turn the other cheek. I think I understand the religion as well as you do, we interpret it differently.

We here in europe have seperation of church and state, we also see that in america that seperation is more and more under pressure. The same goes for the seperation of political and judicial powers. Politically appointed judges in your high court who are expected to tow the party line. The Schiavo case and the botched elections were a deeply saddening show case of partisan judges on all levels. The courtroom should be a place where anyone can get justice irrespective of social class or political orientation. When you start to appoint judges politically you jeopardize that very principle.

The Florida recounts were apparently needed because the elections there had an air of dubiousness about them. The fact that the republicans tried to stop these recounts in the court was even more perplexing from a european point of view. Should one not want everything to be done to make sure elections were legitimate? If the GOP had won florida fair and square they should have had nothing to fear. But a politically appointed judge, who also had some conflicts of interests with the senator of florida, sought to stop these recounts. Can you see how "bringing democracy" to other countries is laughed at when you don't even have your own in order? I see by your use of the word liberals as an almost swear word you find them scary. You think you have liberals? Your liberals would be called right wing here in europe. To demonize them in the media etc. for their point of view is petty and only enforces the view many people abroad allready have of america.

BTW the person who abandoned your south east asian allies was nixon. What party was he from again? "Peace with honour" might be a bit hard to explain to people who know nothing else but fear and death for the "sins" of their parents.

[Student Pilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]Were the Chillean people happier without allende and with Pinochet?

Were the nicaraguan people happier for america sponsoring a bloody civil war there?

Were the argentinian people happier with fidela?

Ok, I am going to have to claim ignorance here.  None of these names are familiar to me so I can't comment on them.

I do know Iran was better off with the Shah, though.  His reforms made Iran a prosperous nation, and Tehran was thought to be one of the most beatiful cities in the world.  Look at it now.

Quote[/b] ]Do you think the Iraqi's are really having such a great time being blown to bits all the time?

No revolution is easy, however, it's not as bad as the news media wold have you believe.  The Iraqies support us over there and want us to help them.  I will recheck the Iraq constitution.  I may have heard something wrong.

Quote[/b] ]I do not think any bussiness interest are worth distorting a countries future. You think it is ok for 10.000's to have been tortured, raped and murdered so you could drive a even bigger car? Do you really lack empathy for your fellow man to such a degree?

A country's businesses are it's livlihood, not the goverment.  However, I never condone those who would kills 10s of thousands of innocent people or more.  But who is doing that?  Are you saying it is the US or US businesses?

Quote[/b] ]What newssource would you approve of?

Well, Fox News is the best one on that list, be even they seem to be all doom and gloom about Iraq.  Try listening to first-hand accounts from soldiers who have been over there, you may be surprised.

Quote[/b] ]No matter how you twist it for all your military might the insurgency is there and you have not been able to keep it under control. We are now seeing a process of "Iraqification" which looks like it will be every bit as dissastrous as Vietnamification was.

Was Rome built in a day?  Did we defeat Germany in under a year?  Were we always victorious against Japan?  There are always setbacks.  We are making progress in Iraq.  Saddam Hussein has been caught, his army destroyed, the people freed, even the insurgency has been combatted against well.  Everyone mentions US and Coalition losses after each skirmish.  What about insurgent losses?  How come we never hear about them?  We have lost around 2000 men.  We lost more men in in single battles in WWII than the whole Iraq war.

Quote[/b] ]In many nations in europe there has always been a great amount of gratitude for what american servicemen and women did for us in ww2. I think its save to say people like GWB and yourself did not serve in that war. The america that liberated us no longer exist. Men like roosevelt, truman and marshall deserved and got a lot of gratitude from europe. To claim you are somehow intitled to that too merely because you are from the same country is rather distastefull, it diminishes what these great people did.

I have news for you, it is the same country.  What we believed then and what we believe now has hardly changed.  In WWII we fought for the freedom for the people of Europe.  Now we fight for the freedom of Iraq.  As a side note, I never held much regard for Roosevelt.  His policies allowed the Soviet Union to control in Europe.  We should have done what Patton wanted and marched against the Russians.

Quote[/b] ]Gij zult niet doden

What language is that?

Quote[/b] ]Nowhere does it say in mine that governments have the right to kill people.

So your saying that the wars David fought and killed people in were against God's command?  Also, read Numbers 31:1-24  It is too long to post here, but God himself commands the Isrealites to war.  You will also notice the Isrealites were to kill everyone: men, women and children by the command of God.

About capital punishment, read Genesis 9:6   "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God had God made man.

Quote[/b] ]We here in europe have seperation of church and state, we also see that in america that seperation is more and more under pressure. The same goes for the seperation of political and judicial powers. Politically appointed judges in your high court who are expected to tow the party line. The Schiavo case and the botched elections were a deeply saddening show case  of partisan judges on all levels. The courtroom should be a place where anyone can get justice irrespective of social class or political orientation. When you start to appoint judges politically you jeopardize that very principle.

Seperation of church and state does NOT mean the the ten commandments must not be posted on public lands, or that goverment officials must not pray before doing their duty, or that they should not use Christian principles in deciding the laws.  It means that goverment shall make no law stifling religion, and that there should be no state sponsered church.

As for the Shiavo case, yes, that was a terrible injustice.  No one should support the unjust killing of a person.  It is not our decision to decide who lives and dies, it is God's.

Quote[/b] ]The Florida recounts were apparently needed because the elections there had an air of dubiousness about them. The fact that the republicans tried to stop these recounts in the court was even more perplexing from a european point of view.

Al Gore got his recounts.  We had to stop eventually.  He couldn't face the fact he lost.  All those "chads" were merely an attempt by him to steal the election.  The people of Florida made thier choice, and they chose Bush.

Quote[/b] ]Can you see how "bringing democracy" to other countries is laughed at when you don't even have your own in order? I see by your use of the word liberals as an almost swear word you find them scary.

We aren't a democracy, we are a Representative Republic.  There is a difference.  However, the recount scandal is over, and Bush won the last election with overwhelming popularity.  We have had no problem in the last election.  I'd say we are in order.  I do not see liberal as a curse word, it is a word to describe those on the left.  But you are right, I do find them scary.  I dread the day they come into power again.

Quote[/b] ]BTW the person who abandoned your south east asian allies was nixon. What party was he from again? "Peace with honour" might be a bit hard to explain to people who know nothing else but fear and death for the "sins" of their parents.

Who got us into the war?  Kennedy.  Who wouldn't let the troops fight the way they should?  Johnson.  Johnson brought politics into the war and would not let the military fight to win.  Vietnam should have been like Gulf War '91.  It was Nixon that allowed unconditional bombing of North Vietnam.  It was that that brought the Vietmanese to the table.  When North Vietnam reinvaded there was nothing we could do because the war protesters had enough political influence stop anything we could have done.

-Student Pilot

EDIT:

I think I found out what language you used. Is it Dutch? If that is correct, then I am not surprised your Bible says that. Translations cause some words to be misinterpreted. The original Hebrew is properly translated as murder. Ask any student of Hebrew.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Were the Chillean people happier without allende and with Pinochet?

Were the nicaraguan people happier for america sponsoring a bloody civil war there?

Were the argentinian people happier with fidela?

Ok, I am going to have to claim ignorance here. None of these names are familiar to me so I can't comment on them.

Yay for the liberal media and the liberal education system.

Quote[/b] ]

Was Rome built in a day? Did we defeat Germany in under a year? Were we always victorious against Japan? There are always setbacks.

You forgot that germany used to be a democratic country and the japanese regime was allowed to remain as a figurehead and there was no land invasion.

Iraq on the other hand has never really had any sort of proper democracy and has been fucked up for almost 15 years now.

Quote[/b] ]

I do know Iran was better off with the Shah, though. His reforms made Iran a prosperous nation, and Tehran was thought to be one of the most beatiful cities in the world. Look at it now.

Well, it may have something to do with one of the most bloodiest wars in the late 20th century.. the very same reason why Saddam became west's new best buddy in the first place.

And regarding the thou shalt not kill commandment.. well, just read the old testament, god was a pioneer when it came to war crimes if that book is true.

[Student Pilot 0]

I am sorry that I am unfamiliar with the events of South America. I do claim ignorance on this.

Quote[/b] ]You forgot that germany used to be a democratic country and the japanese regime was allowed to remain as a figurehead and there was no land invasion.

Iraq on the other hand has never really had any sort of proper democracy and has been fucked up for almost 15 years now.

Precisely, which is why it is so amazing at the progress we have made there. It took us over 5? years to set up democracy in Japan. We have done it in Iraq in less than 2.

Quote[/b] ]And regarding the thou shalt not kill commandment.. well, just read the old testament, god was a pioneer when it came to war crimes if that book is true.

It is indeed true, but you have to look at the reason. The Isrealites at first wouldn't kill everyone. They married into the other faiths and were themselves converted to a pagan religion. They were to kill everyone so that would not happen. God, in his infinite wisdom, saw what would happen if the Isrealites failed to kill every one of their enemies. Look at what happened to Isreal when they disobeyed God.

As for war crimes, I think people in this day and age have forgotten what happens in war. In war you kill people and break things. There is a probem when we are more concerned about civilian casualties than completing the mission in the best possible way. Now, I do not condone torturing and I think if civilian casualies can be avoided, then they should be. But I do not think we should revolve our strageties around avoiding civilian casualties, they should revolve around completing the mission with the least harm to our troops.

-Student Pilot

[EiZei 0]

It is indeed true, but you have to look at the reason. The Isrealites at first wouldn't kill everyone. They married into the other faiths and were themselves converted to a pagan religion.

As for war crimes, I think people in this day and age have forgotten what happens in war. In war you kill people and break things. There is a probem when we are more concerned about civilian casualties than completing the mission in the best possible way.

-Student Pilot

Quote[/b] ]

Precisely, which is why it is so amazing at the progress we have made there. It took us over 5? years to set up democracy in Japan. We have done it in Iraq in less than 2.

Uh, last time I checked people were not getting shot/blown up there in 1947 and beyond.

Quote[/b] ]

They were to kill everyone so that would not happen. God, in his infinite wisdom, saw what would happen if the Isrealites failed to kill every one of their enemies. Look at what happened to Isreal when they disobeyed God.

Yes, what a loving father-figure god was.

Can't muslim extremist claim the same that in the infinite wisdom of god saw that it is necessarry for the religious warriors to destroy the west because they are spreading their "evil" secularism around the world?

What for example the people that had lived in jerusalem (Jg 1:1-8) had done besides been in the way?

Quote[/b] ]

Now, I do not condone torturing and I think if civilian casualies can be avoided, then they should be. But I do not think we should revolve our strageties around avoiding civilian casualties, they should revolve around completing the mission with the least harm to our troops.

Funny that people who say that seem to always come from countries that have not seen war on their home front for quite some time. And I do value some iraqi civilian a hell lot more than some abusive army MP prick who signed up to earn some money and get to live his sadistic fantasies.

My grandparents were on the receiving end of that fucked up idea, if the goverment had descended on the same level with the soviets we would have fallen in no time after this country had torn itself apart.

[Student Pilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]Uh, last time I checked people were not getting shot/blown up there in 1947 and beyond.

Last time I checked, Muslim extremeists weren't waging war in Japan.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, what a loving father-figure god was.

Can't muslim extremist claim the same that in the infinite wisdom of god saw that it is necessarry for the religious warriors to destroy the west because they are spreading their "evil" secularism around the world?

What for example the people that had lived in jerusalem (Jg 1:1-8) had done besides been in the way?

Read Exodus 20:4-6

"You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments."

God punishes those who do evil and hate him. What do you think hell is for?

Yes, muslims can indeed claim that, and some do. The difference, however, is that they worship a false god and as a result are wrong.

As for attacking Jerusalem, the city at that time was not inhabited by isrealites at that time. Isreal did not permamently control the city until David captured the city.

Quote[/b] ]Funny that people who say that seem to always come from countries that have not seen war on their home front for quite some time.

What is that supposed to mean? Just because my country hasn't been attacked on it's home front since WWII I can't have an opinion?

Quote[/b] ]And I do value some iraqi civilian a hell lot more than some abusive army MP prick who signed up to earn some money and get to live his sadistic fantasies.

If that is your view of the US military, then it is grossly tainted. Our soldiers in Iraq are fighting for the freedom of the Iraqis, close to 2000 have given their lives for that cause. Our men are not pricks who signed up to earn money and live their sadistic fantasies. They are over there because they believe in what they are doing, because they love freedom and wish to spread it. I have never insulted European soldiers in my discussion, quite the opposite. I wish you would show the same respect.

-Student Pilot

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]

God punishes those who do evil and hate him. What do you think hell is for?

For those thoughtcriminals that do not submit to the omnipotent presidente-for-eternity?

Quote[/b] ]

Yes, muslims can indeed claim that, and some do. The difference, however, is that they worship a false god and as a result are wrong.

So your argument is.. is.. that they are worshipping the wrong god? Holy Fuck.

Quote[/b] ]

Last time I checked, Muslim extremeists weren't waging war in Japan.

Yes, but they it was filled with shinto extremists.

Quote[/b] ]

What is that supposed to mean? Just because my country hasn't been attacked on it's home front since WWII I can't have an opinion?

Yes you are. But consider it as a matter of perspective.

Quote[/b] ]

If that is your view of the US military, then it is grossly tainted. Our soldiers in Iraq are fighting for the freedom of the Iraqis, close to 2000 have given their lives for that cause. Our men are not pricks who signed up to earn money and live their sadistic fantasies. They are over there because they believe in what they are doing, because they love freedom and wish to spread it. I have never insulted European soldiers in my discussion, quite the opposite. I wish you would show the same respect.

And by some sadistic army MP pricks im meaning the abusive assholes at Bagram (just a recent example) who just got handed down couple of months in the slammer for beating a civilian to death. My point is that your goverment seems to value that kind of monsters more than innocent civilians.

Still, if some insurgent called me up in Skype and told me that he had a random civilian from the street and a USMC corpsman in custody and was going to kill one of them if I told which and both of them if I would hang up id call him an asshole and tell him to shoot the soldier.

[Student Pilot 0]

I take it you don't care much for Christianity? May I ask why? (I have a feeling I'm going to regret asking that)

Quote[/b] ]Yes, but they it was filled with shinto extremists.

Uh huh. Well, I think the Shintoists realized that resistance to the US was futile. The insurgents still haven't realized that.

Quote[/b] ]And by some sadistic army MP pricks im meaning the abusive assholes at Bagram (just a recent example) who just got handed down couple of months in the slammer for beating a civilian to death. My point is that your goverment seems to value that kind of monsters more than innocent civilians.

There are always those who go to far, and I do not condone their actions. However, instances like that are few and far between. Btw, if my goverment values those monsters, why are we giving the Iraqis a chance for freedom? We could have gone in there and killed everyone, taken the oil and proclaimed Iraq the 51st state. But we didn't. I think you are wrong by taking the actions of a few and applying them to the whole.

Quote[/b] ]Still, if some insurgent called me up in Skype and told me that he had a random civilian from the street and a USMC corpsman in custody and was going to kill one of them if I told which and both of them if I would hang up id call him an asshole and tell him to shoot the soldier.

I don't think I could make that decision. Although, I don't think the insurgents would consult anyone on who to kill, they would just kill them both. Either way, the actions of the insurgents are wrong.

-Student Pilot

[Scorpio 0]

Yes, muslims can indeed claim that, and some do.  The difference, however, is that they worship a false god and as a result are wrong.

You're joking, right? I like jokes.

[Balschoiw 0]

Guantanamo at it´s best !

G.I. Attacked During Training

Quote[/b] ]Baker, a National Guardsman, was working last year as a military policeman in the Guantanamo Bay prison when other MPs injured him during a training drill. It was a drill during which Baker was only obeying orders.

"I was assaulted by these individuals," says Baker. "Pure and simple."

It’s all the more bizarre because Baker was considered a model soldier and he had served as an MP in Saudi Arabia during the First Gulf War.

Then, minutes after the attack on the Pentagon on Sept. 11, Baker made a phone call from the auto repair shop in Lexington, Ky., where he was working. "I had to get back in the military right then," recalls Baker. "I had to go back then. I had to do something."

And he did. At 35, married and with a child, Baker volunteered to join the 438th Military Police Company in Murray, Ky., because it was about to be deployed overseas.

Ron England was Baker’s first sergeant. "He seemed to like being a soldier," says England. "He loved being a soldier. He was always more than willing to give his part and somebody else’s, or to pitch in for somebody else."

In November 2002, Baker's unit was sent to Guantanamo Bay, home to what the Pentagon called the most vicious terrorists in the world. Spc. Baker’s job was to escort prisoners and walk the causeways of the prison block.

He was the new guy on the block, and he says he got special treatment from the detainees: "They wanna try the new guy. See how much they can push you. You know? How much water they can throw on you. How much urine they can throw on you. How much feces they can dump on you."

His unit was on duty at 2 a.m. on Jan. 24, 2003, when his squad leader got a message. "'Someone needs to go for training,'" says Baker. "And I looked around the room. I couldn’t believe that everyone had not stood up, and said, 'I'll go.' But I said, 'Right here, Sarg.'"

Baker was always the first to volunteer. This time, it was to go to the block where the most dangerous detainees were kept in isolated cells. There, Baker was met by Second Lt. Shaw Locke of the 303rd Military Police Company from Michigan. Locke, who was in charge of an IRF (Immediate Reaction Force) team, briefed Baker about the training drill he was planning.

"'We’re going to put you in a cell and extract you, have their IRF team come in and extract you. And what I’d like you to do is go ahead and strip your uniform off and put on this orange suit,'" says Baker, who was ordered to wear an orange jumpsuit, just like the ones worn by the detainees at Guantanamo.

"I’d never questioned an order before. But, at first I said, my only remark was, ‘Sir?' Just in the form of a question. And he said, ‘You’ll be fine,’" recalls Baker. "I said, ‘Well, you know what’s gonna happen when they come in there on me?’ And he said, ‘Trust me, Spc. Baker. You will be fine.’"

Drills to practice extracting uncooperative prisoners took place every day, with a U.S. soldier playing the role of a detainee, but not in an orange jumpsuit, and not at full force.

"You always train at 70 percent. Never 100 percent," says Michael Riley, who was Baker's platoon sergeant. "Seventy percent means you want to practice and be proficient, but not get anybody hurt."

Baker says his orders that night were to get under a bunk on a steel floor in a dark cell, and wait: "I said, 'Sir, you're going to tell that IRF team that I'm a U.S. soldier?' He said, 'Yes, you'll be fine, Spc. Baker. Trust me.'"

But in fact, Locke later acknowledged in a sworn statement that he did not indicate “whether the scenario was a drill or not a drill to the IRF team.†Locke did, however, tell the team the detainee had not responded to pepper spray.

"They wanted to make training a little more realistic," says Baker. "Put this orange suit on."

Locke gave Baker a code word – red - to shout out in case of trouble. From under the bunk, Baker heard the extraction team coming down the causeway. In sworn statements, however, four members of the team said they thought they were going after a real detainee.

"My face was down. And of course, they’re pushing it down against the steel floor, you know, my right temple, pushing it down against the floor," recalls Baker. "And someone’s holding me by the throat, using a pressure point on me and holding my throat. And I used the word, ‘red.’ At that point I, you know, I became afraid."

Apparently, no one heard the code word ‘red’ because Baker says he continued to be manhandled, especially by an MP named Scott Sinclair who was holding onto his head.

"And when I said the word ‘Red,’ he forced my head down against the steel floor and was sort of just grinding it into the floor. The individual then, when I picked up my head and said, ‘Red,’ slammed my head down against the floor," says Baker. "I was so afraid, I groaned out, ‘I’m a U.S. soldier.' And when I said that, he slammed my head again, one more time against the floor. And I groaned out one more time, I said, ‘I’m a U.S. soldier.’ And I heard them say, ‘Whoa, whoa, whoa,' you know, like he wanted to, he was telling the other guy to stop."

Bloodied and disoriented, Baker somehow made it back to his unit, and his first thought was to get hold of the videotape. "I said, 'Go get the tape,'" recalls Baker. "'They've got a tape. Go get the tape.' My squad leader went to get the tape."

Every extraction drill at Guantanamo was routinely videotaped, and the tape of this drill would show what happened. But Baker says his squad leader came back and said, "There is no tape."

"That was the only time that I heard that a tape had gone missing," says Riley, Baker's platoon sergeant.

"Of all the tapes, this was probably the most important one that we should have kept," adds England.

Baker started having a seizure that morning and was whisked to the Naval Hospital at Guantanamo. "[He looked like] he'd had the crap beat out of him. He had a concussion. I mean, it was textbook," says Riley. "[His face} was blank. You know, a dead stare, like he was seeing you, but really looking through you."

Baker was airlifted to the Portsmouth Naval Medical Center in Virginia, where doctors determined he had suffered an injury to the right side of his brain. He was released after four days, and Baker says he requested to go back to Cuba.

"I wanted to go back and perform my duties," says Baker. "I wanted to be back with my unit."

Baker got back to Guantanamo, and hoped no one would notice he was having seizures, but they got to the point where he says he couldn't hide them: "I was shaking and convulsing around people."

Some days, he says, he was having 10 to 12 seizures per day.

What does he think would have happened if he had been a real detainee? "I think they would have busted him up," says Baker. "I've seen detainees come outta there with blood on 'em. …If there wasn't someone to say, 'I'm a U.S. soldier,' if you were speaking Arabic or Pashto or Urdu or some other language in the camp, we may never know what would have happened to that individual."

Baker was finally taken off Guantanamo and sent to the Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where he was put in a psychiatric ward. His diagnosis: traumatic brain injury. After 47 days, he was ordered to report to a medical hold unit at Fort Dix, N.J. But the seizures continued.

"He was shaking all over his whole body. It just looked like he was -- you ever seen 'The Exorcist?' That’s what it looked like. It was pretty freaky," says Spc. Sean Bateman, who saw Baker. "He had plenty [of seizures]. I can't count them all is pretty much what I'm saying. He had some so often, it was pretty much expected."

But back at Guantanamo, a promised investigation into what happened to Baker wasn’t getting anywhere.

"There was what was called a commander’s inquiry. It doesn’t really tell me anything," says England. "And after that it more or less seemed like, least said the best said. That was my opinion of it."

Riley says he and England approached Capt. Judith Brown, the commander of the Kentucky National Guard at Guantanamo, and asked her what was going on with that investigation. What did the captain say? "I'll paraphrase. It's something like, it's being looked into, but we really don't wanna get anybody in trouble," says Riley.

Nobody got into trouble because the Army didn’t conduct a serious investigation into what happened to Spc. Baker -- not for 17 months. Only then, and only after word of Baker’s beating got leaked to the media, did the Pentagon launch a criminal investigation into how he got so badly hurt that January morning in Guantanamo.

The criminal investigation is still going on. 60 Minutes Wednesday wanted to talk to someone at the Pentagon about the Baker case, but was told no one would talk about it.

Despite repeated calls, Capt. Judith Brown refused to speak to 60 Minutes Wednesday. Crews tried to interview Shaw Locke, the man in charge that night, and Scott Sinclair, the man Baker accused of bashing his head, but they wouldn’t meet with 60 Minutes Wednesday either. Sinclair did write in a sworn statement after the incident that Baker was resisting and that Sinclair merely placed his head back on the floor of the cell.

Meanwhile, Baker was stuck in bureaucratic limbo at Fort Dix for 10 months, long after Locke, Sinclair and the 303rd returned home to Michigan to a celebration in September 2003.

Baker was left to fight the Pentagon for a disability check, and he says it took four months to get his first check. Meantime, he says drew unemployment insurance, about half of what he was accustomed to making, to get by.

"These are our American veterans," says England. "Sean Baker was one that wasn’t taken care of. In my own personal opinion, Sean Baker wasn’t taken care of."

When Baker got home to Kentucky, he didn’t complain. But he needed help just to get his disability check. Attorney Bruce Simpson agreed to help Baker, pro bono. But Baker is unable to sue because of a 1950 Supreme Court ruling that bars members of the military from suing the government.

"He’ll not get a dime from what happened to him through the court system because the doors to the federal courthouse as to Sean Baker are closed," says Simpson, who adds that no one has paid a price for what happened to Baker that night. "He’s been destined to a life of walking in a minefield of unexploded seizures. He doesn’t know when they’re gonna come. And he doesn’t know when they are gonna bring him to his knees."

"It’s as if they just went on living their lives, as if they’ve done nothing. Nothing wrong," adds Baker, who now takes nine medications a day, can't get a job, has put on 50 pounds and has constant nightmares.

At the end of September, Baker went to Columbia University Medical Center in New York to consult with Dr. Carl Bazil, a seizure specialist, and one of the top neurologists in the country.

While undergoing testing, Baker suffered a seizure in front of Bazil, who believes Baker has intractable epilepsy – which means his seizures are difficult to control.

Is it an injury Baker could have received as a result of having his head repeatedly knocked against a steel floor? "Oh, absolutely. That is the kind of injury that would be severe enough to result in epilepsy," says Bazil, who believes that with better treatment, Baker's condition could improve. "If he doesn't get better treatment, that will probably continue indefinitely."

"So, if you got your health back, I take it, after your experience with the Army, you’d never serve again," Simon asks Baker.

"I’d be in," says Baker. "Till the day I die."

Now this is what I call an insight to the human and just things that happen at Gitmo. Something you can really be proud of.

As this is one of the US soldiers and they cover it up badly you can let your phantasy swing on how such incidents are handled and documented if NO US soldier is the victim

Edit:

Wikipedia link

[Supah 0]

Yes, muslims can indeed claim that, and some do. The difference, however, is that they worship a false god and as a result are wrong.

OKAY! REALLY healthy attitude you have there.

[crave22 0]

@Student Pilot

I also do not condone the actions of those monsters. Anyone who beats a civilian deserves to be shot. No trial, no hearing, just a 5.56 right through the head. If it were an accidental friendly fire, I could understand. But when you look someone in the face and beat them to death, that's just plain wrong.  

On that last point, I wouldn't be able to make that decision, either. I don't see how anyone could make that decision. Remember, the soldier is just following orders and he/she probably has a family.

@Supah

Yeah, that comment "...they worship a false god..." was a little bit over the line. Remember, almost all religious extremests are Muslims, but not all Muslims are extremests.

@Balschoiw

That's one of the porblems with the Pentagon and investigations. When a US soldier is hurt by other soldiers, nobody cares. But when an insurgent is hurt or tortured by US soldiers, all those pissy little human rights groups yell about it day and night. They don't care about the soldiers protecting them, just the insurgents who want to kill them. That really gets me angry.    However, he sounds like one tough guy when he said at the end he'd continue serving. He has some..........guts.

[Student Pilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]You're joking, right? I like jokes.

Quote[/b] ]OKAY! REALLY healthy attitude you have there.

What is your problem with that statement?  There are absolute truths in this world, the most important being there is only one God.  Anyone who worships another god is committing a terrible sin, a sin that results on only one thing.  I am not going to forsake my religion for the sake of healthy attitudes and harmony.  I am not going to damn myself.

@Balschoiw

I have not heard of that story.  If it is true, then a wrong was definately committed.  However, if you recall, a recent investigation of Gitmo showed claims of abuse and torture to be wrong!  And this investigation was lead by senators, people who wanted to find abuses and tortures being committed so that they could throw mud at Bush.

Quote[/b] ]I also do not condone the actions of those monsters. Anyone who beats a civilian deserves to be shot. No trial, no hearing, just a 5.56 right through the head. If it were an accidental friendly fire, I could understand. But when you look someone in the face and beat them to death, that's just plain wrong.

I'll say it again, I DO NOT CONDONE UNJUST KILLING OR TORTURE!!!

I do not think a trial should be bypassed, EVERYONE is entitled to a fair trial, even the BTK killer had a trial.

Quote[/b] ]On that last point, I wouldn't be able to make that decision, either. I don't see how anyone could make that decision. Remember, the soldier is just following orders and he/she probably has a family.

EXACTLY!  The soldier is following orders, just like the germans and british and french ect in WWII.  We don't blame the german soldier for WWII, do we?  No, we blame Hitler.  If you have a problem with the war, don't throw mud on our soldiers, blame the commander in chief.  Now, to make sure no one misunderstands me, I believe the war is just, I am totally behind Bush.  However, there is another thread for this so I will not discuss the war here.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, that comment "...they worship a false god..." was a little bit over the line. Remember, almost all religious extremests are Muslims, but not all Muslims are extremests.

I never said all Muslims are bad people, I just said they worship a false god.  I believe that to be true.

Quote[/b] ]That's one of the porblems with the Pentagon and investigations. When a US soldier is hurt by other soldiers, nobody cares. But when an insurgent is hurt or tortured by US soldiers, all those pissy little human rights groups yell about it day and night. They don't care about the soldiers protecting them, just the insurgents who want to kill them. That really gets me angry.     However, he sounds like one tough guy when he said at the end he'd continue serving. He has some..........guts.

Right, why are we slamming the US soldier? Who is taking hostages and ruthlessly beheading them?  Who are the suicide bombers who kill countless Jewish and Iraqi civilians?  Why don't you attack them?  Why is the US always the bad guy?

And your right, he does have guts.  He is to be admired.

-Student Pilot

EDIT:

Crave22, I don't know if I misunderstood you.  If you were agreeing with me about not condoning such activity, then forgive my comments.  When I first read your statement, I got the impression you thought I condoned such activities.  Of course, if that is exactly what you wanted me to think, then just ignore this

EDIT2:

Changed punctuation slightly

[Scorpio 0]

What is your problem with that statement?  There are absolute truths in this world, the most important being there is only one God.  Anyone who worships another god is committing a terrible sin, a sin that results on only one thing.  I am not going to forsake my religion for the sake of healthy attitudes and harmony.  I am not going to damn myself.

What makes you think that the God worshipped by Muslims is different to the God worshipped by Christians?

Quote[/b] ]I never said all Muslims are bad people, I just said they worship a false god.  I believe that to be true.

Erm, right. It seems to me those two statements contradict eachother, since if you worship a false god you are automatically labelled as "bad"?

[edit] Heh, I thought about it a while and I think I know what you're getting at now...it's the whole Jesus is the Son of God/Jesus is God thing, right? So if we don't worship Jesus, we're worshipping a false God? Please correct me if I misunderstood.

[SPQR 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, that comment "...they worship a false god..." was a little bit over the line. Remember, almost all religious extremests are Muslims, but not all Muslims are extremests.

I never said all Muslims are bad people, I just said they worship a false god.  I believe that to be true.

After the concept a superior race, here comes the concept of superior religion. Afterall, all those asians, animist africans, hindus are also complety wrong, the rest of the world is completly wrong, while the sun is still orbiting around the earth...

For your information, Jericho didn't waited for God's trump to fall, as the city fell into ruins centurys before hebrew's arrival. Also, egyptians never had slaves in their history, they just threw out a people happy to be fed for free while refusing to work for the country. And there's many more historical errors or plots.

I'd better convert as muslim and ask refuge to Scorpio, Acecombat and Python than accepting this upper kind of bulls... ...

[crave22 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'll say it again, I DO NOT CONDONE UNJUST KILLING OR TORTURE!!!

I do not think a trial should be bypassed, EVERYONE is entitled to a fair trial, even the BTK killer had a trial.

I know everyone is entitled to a fair trial, but some don't deserve it. If there isn't enough evidence to prove it, then he does need a trial. But if there is a video tape of him beating someone innocent to death, I'd pull the trigger myself.

Oh, and I just caught the edit. I was agreeing with you about not condoning such activities and I'm sorry if I was misunderstood. *EDIT 2* And for future reference in this thread, I'm mostly on your side! We both share a border with Ohio! You can't get much closer than that!

Anyway, about this "false god" discussion. It's getting seriously offtopic, so let's end it now. I remember reading somewhere that people were studying the one and only God as Christians and Jews know Him (remember, Christian beliefs are based on those of Jews) and Allah and comparing the two. They had said that there are similarities between the two, but they are just worshipped in diffrent ways. Many people feel tey are all the same God, just under different names. This is just some people's beliefs and there is no way to prove it, but it is an interesting concept.

*EDIT*

Damn, Scorpio! I'm a slow typer! You have to give me more time to type next time!

[Student Pilot 0]

Quote[/b] ]Erm, right. It seems to me those two statements contradict eachother, since if you worship a false god you are automatically labelled as "bad"?

Not bad, maybe mislead is a better term?  I'm not saying every muslim is a dark, evil, terrible person.  There are many kind, good muslims out there.  They just fail to worship the Triune God.

Quote[/b] ][edit] Heh, I thought about it a while and I think I know what you're getting at now...it's the whole Jesus is the Son of God/Jesus is God thing, right? So if we don't worship Jesus, we're worshipping a false God? Please correct me if I misunderstood.

That is a big part of it.  Christians believe in a Triune God, Father, Son (Christ), and Holy Spirit.  Those who reject the divinity of Christ reject his gift of salvation, thereby dooming themselves for eternity.  The gods of Christianity, Islam and Judiasm are NOT the same God.

@SPQR

If you choose to reject the Bible, that is you decision.  Please realize, everything I have said can be found in the Bible.

Quote[/b] ]Oh, and I just caught the edit. I was agreeing with you about not condoning such activities and I'm sorry if I was misunderstood.

No, I apologize.

I still don't agree with you about the whole trial thing, that is one of the rights the American fore-fathers were so adament about.

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, about this "false god" discussion. It's getting seriously offtopic, so let's end it now. I remember reading somewhere that people were studying the one and only God as Christians and Jews know Him (remember, Christian beliefs are based on those of Jews) and Allah and comparing the two. They had said that there are similarities between the two, but they are just worshipped in diffrent ways. Many people feel tey are all the same God, just under different names. This is just some people's beliefs and there is no way to prove it, but it is an interesting concept.

Interestingly, this might not be so off-topic.  American politics was built around Christianity and many Christian infuences can be seen in our political system.  Understanding Christianity may be an insight into the basis of the American political system.  However, if a mod decides this is off-topic, then I will stop.

I cannot stress enough, there is only one true God.  The gods of Islam, Judiasm and Christianity are not the same.  Christianity is the only religion that believes in salvation by grace through Christ.  All other religions stress man's works to save himself.

-Student Pilot

[Scorpio 0]

Quote[/b] ]The gods of Christianity, Islam and Judiasm are NOT the same God.

If you say so. But I would still believe that these three religions both share the same God and I'm sure a

considerable amount of Christians and Jews would agree.

Quote[/b] ]Christians believe in a Triune God, Father, Son (Christ), and Holy Spirit.

Quote[/b] ]I cannot stress enough, there is only one true God.

Forgive me for being simplistic but which one is God? Father, Son or Holy Spirit? Or yes, does he take the forms of all three? That would make him his own father and at the same time his own son. I'm sure there are many things in religion that are not fully explained, but this one has really baffled me.

[crave22 0]

Well, I'm not going to argue anymore about the religion. You're one tough debator, I'll give you that!  I will clarify the meaning of that Judaism shares a God with Christianity statement, though. I meant that we share the father figure, because both religions believe in the same origins of mankind. After the Old Testament, the similarities stop. That is when the Triune comes into play. However, the Pope (JP2, not B16) even admitted that Christianity and Judiasm shared beliefs which caused Israeli intelligence to give him the codename "Old Friend". That is simply what I meant, argue if you want.

And about the trial: I know it didn't sound right and I don't want to sound like  someone who wants people executed without defending themselves, but I was just making a point that if he played his cards right, the guy who beat up the civilian may be able to walk. However, remember that in the military you are guilty until proven innocent. I do realise that the fore-fathers made a point of saying you have a right to a trial, but I wanted to make a point of how the court system can be corrupted by popular beliefs and the media.

*EDIT* Damnit Scorpio! Not again!

*EDIT 2* Yeah, that's one of the great mysteries of the universe. Don't worry, there are a lot of people I know who are baffled by this, even people from my church!

[Student Pilot 0]

@Scorpio

Yes, many Christians and Jews do believe that.  I think it's unfortunate.  The Christian leaders need to educate the people, something that doesn't happen enough.  We in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod try with catechesis, but that only goes so far.  And we have been having our own problems, but those are irrelevant here.

Quote[/b] ]Forgive me for being simplistic but which one is God? Father, Son or Holy Spirit? Or yes, does he take the forms of all three? That would make him his own father and at the same time his own son. I'm sure there are many things in religion that are not fully explained, but this one has really baffled me.

I think this is something all Christians struggle with, I know I do at times.  All three are one God, but three parts.  None are confused with each other, all are seperate.  We have to take such things by faith.  I once heard an anology that I will share with you, I only hope it is right.  Look at an apple.  There are three parts to an appla.  The skin, the flesh and the core.  However, they are not three apples, but one apple.  All three make up the apple and the apple is not complete without all three.  So it is with God.  I know this is a poor analogy, such things cannot be fully understood by our human minds.

I'm with Crave22, I am going to resign myself from this debate.  I think I have presented my religion well.  If you have any questions feel free to IM me.

Quote[/b] ]Well, I'm not going to argue anymore about the religion. You're one tough debator, I'll give you that!

I only hope God agrees!

Quote[/b] ]I will clarify the meaning of that Judaism shares a God with Christianity statement, though. I meant that we share the father figure, because both religions believe in the same origins of mankind. After the Old Testament, the similarities stop. That is when the Triune comes into play. However, the Pope (JP2, not B16) even admitted that Christianity and Judiasm shared beliefs which caused Israeli intelligence to give him the codename "Old Friend". That is simply what I meant, argue if you want.

Ok, I see what you mean, there are several similarities between Judiasm and Christianity.  In fact, Judiasm, before Christs death and resurrection, was the true religion.  Unfortunetly, they have rejected the very saviour they waited for for thousands of years.

Quote[/b] ]And about the trial: I know it didn't sound right and I don't want to sound like  someone who wants people executed without defending themselves, but I was just making a point that if he played his cards right, the guy who beat up the civilian may be able to walk. However, remember that in the military you are guilty until proven innocent. I do realise that the fore-fathers made a point of saying you have a right to a trial, but I wanted to make a point of how the court system can be corrupted by popular beliefs and the media.

Yes, I see your point, and I agree.

As I said above, I am resigning from this discussion, I'll let everyone else have the last word

No hard feelings here.

-Student Pilot

EDIT:

When I said I am resigning from the discussion, I meant the religious dicussion, not the political one. Although I may soon resign from this board altogether...

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]Uhhhh, the more polution there is, the better the trees are off. Sound stupid? Wait, what do trees and all plants breathe in...Carbon Dioxide! What waste is produced by plants...Oxygen. So, if there is less carbon dioxide in the air and more oxygen, the plants will suffer. SUV drivers are saving the enviroment!

I really hope you're not serious...if you are...

Quote[/b] ]You have been checking out the mainstream media, haven't you. In case you don't know, Iraq has a constitution. We are making progress. Look at what happened in Gulf War '91. Did Saddam's forces have a good time? No, they got their asses kicked because of American military power.

Supah said no army can win you peace. And you use Gulf war 91 as an example? Where's the peace you won in 91 then?

Quote[/b] ]Do you remember who launched the recounts, that's right, Al Gore. That was pathetic on the liberal's part. As for Saddam offering vote counters, I don't remember that, so I can't comment. As for the two parties, I would rather have 2 parties and get something done than have 6 parties and have them bickering all the time, accomplishing nothing.

What's wrong with the recount? Bush won and IIRC lots of votes who was most likely going to Gore were not counted...

Quote[/b] ]The Vietnam war was a disgrace. And it was all because of politicians medling in the affairs of the military. I would also like to point out again, who was running the country then? The conservatives? Nope, the liberals.

Well, you still didn't stand by your friends, no matter who was running your country.

Quote[/b] ]Hmm, London, Germany. That's what it would be without us. But I won't use WWII. How about WWI? Who went to Gulf War '91 together? Who are two very good trading partners? Britian and the US are friends, and we both benefit from it.

How you know that? It's quite possible Britain and Soviet would have managed to defeat Germany on their own. Besides, the point ain't that Britain and USA benefit from being friends, the point is that too many americans tend to use WWII each time someone say anything bad about USA.

[crave22 0]

Quote[/b] ]As I said above, I am resigning from this discussion, I'll let everyone else have the last word

Yes, I agree, let's let everyone else kill each other over this! No hard feelings, either.  

Crave out.

*EDIT* Garcia?! You and Scorpio have to learn to give us slow typers a chance!

<span style='color:blue'>Note to self: learn to type faster...</span>

[Garcia 0]

Sorry I'll never do it again...I swear...

Though I answered on a post some pages back

[chops 111]

Student pilot.

It seems that magic little book of yours is very handy for coming up with bullshit excuses for doing "wrongs", that normal, non religious people don't need other people to tell them is wrong.

[ralphwiggum 6]

ok, seems like periodic return of troll is on the move.

thread locked for 24 hours, and for going off topic. this is US politics thread, not religion thread, or iraq thread.