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I've been reading some boards with hoardes of conservative members and most of them agreed that Pat Robertson needs to shut up.

any ways,

Quote[/b] ]ARLINGTON, Virginia (AP) -- Unlike earlier wars, nearly all Arlington National Cemetery gravestones for troops killed in Iraq or Afghanistan are inscribed with the slogan-like operation names the Pentagon selected to promote public support for the conflicts.

Families of fallen soldiers and Marines are being told they have the option to have the government-furnished headstones engraved with "Operation Enduring Freedom" or "Operation Iraqi Freedom" at no extra charge, whether they are buried in Arlington or elsewhere. A mock-up shown to many families includes the operation names.

The vast majority of military gravestones from other eras are inscribed with just the basic, required information: name, rank, military branch, date of death and, if applicable, the war and foreign country in which the person served.

Families are supposed to have final approval over what goes on the tombstones. That hasn't always happened.

Nadia and Robert McCaffrey, whose son Patrick was killed in Iraq in June 2004, said "Operation Iraqi Freedom" ended up on his government-supplied headstone in Oceanside, California, without family approval.

"I was a little taken aback," Robert McCaffrey said, describing his reaction when he first saw the operation name on Patrick's tombstone. "They certainly didn't ask my wife; they didn't ask me."

He said Patrick's widow told him she had not been asked either.

"In one way, I feel it's taking advantage to a small degree," McCaffrey said. "Patrick did not want to be there; that is a definite fact."

The owner of the company that has been making gravestones for Arlington and other national cemeteries for nearly two decades is uncomfortable, too.

"It just seems a little brazen that that's put on stones," said Jeff Martell, owner of Granite Industries of Vermont. "It seems like it might be connected to politics."

The Department of Veterans Affairs says it isn't.

"The headstone is not a PR purpose. It is to let the country know and the people that visit the cemetery know who served this country and made the country free for us," VA official Steve Muro said.

Since 1997, the government has been paying for virtually everything inscribed on the gravestones. Before that, families had to pay the gravestone makers separately for any inscription beyond the basics.

It wasn't until the invasion of Iraq in March 2003 that the department instructed national cemetery directors and funeral homes across the country to advise families of fallen soldiers and Marines that they could have operation names like "Enduring Freedom" or "Iraqi Freedom" included on the headstones.

VA officials say neither the Pentagon nor White House exerted any pressure to get families to include the operation names. They say families always had the option of including information like battle or operation names, but didn't always know it.

"It's just the right thing to do and it always has been, but it hasn't always been followed," said Dave Schettler, director of the VA's memorial programs service.

VA officials say they don't know how many families of the more than 2,000 soldiers and Marines who have died in Iraq and Afghanistan have opted to include the operation names.

At Arlington, the nation's most prestigious national cemetery, all but a few of the 193 gravestones of Iraq and Afghanistan dead carry the operation names. War casualties are also buried in many of the 121 other national cemeteries and numerous state and private graveyards.

The interment service supervisor at Arlington, Vicki Tanner, said cemetery representatives show families a mock-up of the headstone with "Operation Iraqi Freedom" or "Operation Enduring Freedom" already included, and ask their approval.

Former Sen. Max Cleland, a Georgia Democrat, who lost both legs and an arm in Vietnam and headed the Veterans Administration under President Carter, called the practice "a little bit of glorified advertising."

"I think it's a little bit of gilding the lily," Cleland said, while insisting that he's not criticizing families who want that information included.

"Most of the headstones out there at Arlington and around the nation just say World War II or Korea or Vietnam, one simple statement," he said. "It's not, shall we say, a designated theme or a designated operation by somebody in the Pentagon. It is what it is. And I think there's power in simplicity."

The Pentagon in the late 1980s began selecting operation names with themes that would help generate public support for conflicts.

Gregory C. Sieminski, an Army officer writing in a 1995 Army War College publication, said the Pentagon decision to call the 1989 invasion of Panama "Operation Just Cause" initiated a trend of naming operations "with an eye toward shaping domestic and international perceptions about the activities they describe."

Mainline veterans groups are taking the change in stride. American Legion spokesman Donald Mooney said the organization hasn't heard any complaints from its members.

"I'm concerned that we do what the families want," said Bob Wallace, executive director of Veterans of Foreign Wars. "I don't think there's any critical motivation behind this."

PR is very critical , I guess. If the liberal gov't went for this, would conservatives agree?

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Did you know that Pat Robertson can leg-press 2000 pounds

Quote[/b] ]Pat Robertson's Age-Defying Shake

Did you know that Pat Robertson can leg-press 2000 pounds! How does he do it?

Where does Pat find the time and energy to host a daily, national TV show, head a world-wide ministry, develop visionary scholars, while traveling the globe as a statesman?

One of Pat's secrets to keeping his energy high and his vitality soaring is his age-defying protein shake. Pat developed a delicious, refreshing shake, filled with energy-producing nutrients.

Discover what kinds of natural ingredients make up Pat's protein shake by registering for your FREE booklet today!

http://home.hamptonroads.com/stories....tref=po

Quote[/b] ] Pat Robertson's shake causes a stir

By BILL SIZEMORE, The Virginian-Pilot

© August 21, 2005

Last updated: 1:40 AM

Pat Robertson’s “age-defying†diet shake isn’t just a philanthropic endeavor anymore. Now the televangelist is looking to turn a profit from it.

After four years of touting the benefits of his weight-loss shake via his nonprofit Christian Broadcasting Network and sending the recipe to any viewer who asked for it, Robertson has licensed the shake for national distribution by General Nutrition Corp., a Pittsburgh-based health-food chain.

Robertson says he is exercising his right to engage in a business venture, but an evangelical watchdog group says he is abusing his nonprofit status.

Along the way, Robertson has hooked up with some colorful characters – Phil Busch, for example.

Busch thought he was going to be Robertson’s Jared. The Texas bodybuilder dreamed of inspiring millions of Robertson’s viewers to lose weight drinking the evangelist’s shake, just like Jared Fogle did for Subway sandwiches.

Busch says he lost 198 pounds in 15 months drinking Robertson’s concoction, leading to an on-camera interview with the Virginia Beach-based broadcaster on the daily TV show “The 700 Club†last month.

But Busch’s hopes have been dashed by the crosscurrents of commerce. The man commercially hawking Robertson’s shake is Pittsburgh bodybuilder Dave Hawk, who’s affiliated with GNC.

Now Busch is hopping mad – all 210 muscular pounds of him – and the recriminations are flying.

Busch says Robertson played him for a sucker, using him to hype his product when it was a nonprofit venture and then dropping him like a hot, carb-filled potato when he went commercial. Robertson and Hawk say they’ve been publicly maligned by Busch and have threatened legal action.

A multimillionaire religious broadcaster and former presidential candidate, Robertson added “health-food promoter†to his wide-ranging resume when he introduced “Pat’s Age-Defying Shake†to viewers in August 2001.

Robertson, now 75, said in a 2002 interview with The Virginian-Pilot that he devised the recipe himself after he turned 60 and began studying the connections among nutrition, aging and health.

Robertson says 1.5 million people have requested the recipe, which includes ingredients such as safflower oil, protein powder and vinegar.

One of them was Busch, 41, a resident of suburban Dallas who bills himself as a bodybuilder, fitness trainer and motivational speaker. He says he weighed 410 pounds when he saw Robertson promoting his shake on TV in 2003 and decided to give it a try.

By following Robertson’s diet in conjunction with an exercise program, Busch says, he lost 198 pounds and turned himself into a mass of muscle without using steroids or other drugs. Last year, he placed eighth in an International Natural Bodybuilding Association competition.

I n the spring of 2005, Robertson launched a 12-week Weight Loss Challenge on “The 700 Club,†suggesting viewers slim down with exercise and a healthy diet, including two daily doses of his shake.

When Busch heard about the challenge, he sent before-and-after pictures of himself to CBN.

“They were ecstatic,†Busch said in an interview. “They wanted to put my pictures on TV. I said OK.â€

Robertson showed the pictures to viewers early in the Weight Loss Challenge and included them in a commercial that ran for several weeks promoting the program.

Shortly before the end of the Weight Loss Challenge, Busch said, his wife noticed a GNC store display promoting a new product. Robertson’s weight-loss shake had been turned into a powdered mix in a can: nine servings for $21.99.

In large type on the front of the can, the product is labeled “Pat’s Diet Shake.†In smaller type on the back, it is identified as “Dr. Pat Robertson’s Diet Shake.â€

Robertson is not a medical doctor, but he does have a law degree , known formally as a juris doctor, from Yale Law School.

At the end of the Weight Loss Challenge in July, CBN flew Busch to Virginia Beach for a “700 Club†interview with Robertson. On the show, Robertson introduced Busch as “Exhibit A-plus†for his diet plan and asked if he used his shake.

“Absolutely, and it’s very essential and it helps tremendously,†Busch replied. “Matter of fact, now I just go to the GNC and get the weight-loss shake.â€

Busch says that representatives of Robertson’s organization led him to believe that he might be able to get a contract as a national spokesman for the shake, but that nothing came of those discussions. He is bitter about being elbowed aside by Hawk, the bodybuilder affiliated with GNC.

“I’m the one that lost 198 pounds,†Busch said. “I felt like an idiot. I felt used.

“All I was trying to do was inspire people. I did it for the viewers – not to help Pat Robertson make money.â€

Hawk, a former Mr. USA and Mr. World, made two appearances on “The 700 Club†during the Weight Loss Challenge. On his second appearance, he wore a shirt bearing the GNC logo.

On his Web site, which promotes Robertson’s shake, Hawk says he “works extensively with General Nutrition Corp . in a variety of capacities.â€

Busch has posted a broadside on his own Web site disavowing his endorsement of the shake: “I do not endorse this product and in no way should you expect the results I have achieved by consuming this product alone.â€

In a written reply to an inquiry from The Virginian-Pilot, Louis A. Isakoff, an attorney representing Robertson, characterized Busch’s allegations as “bizarre, completely untrue and sadly mistaken.â€

Isakoff wrote that Busch was never offered an endorsement contract by Robertson or CBN. He said Robertson licensed his name and shake recipe to Basic Organics Inc., a Columbus, Ohio-based manufacturer that produces the product and distributes it in GNC stores.

“Dr. Robertson, as a private individual, certainly has the right to engage in personal business ventures,†Isakoff wrote.

Hawk is a consultant for Basic Organics, which handles advertising for the product.

Although ads for the shake have appeared immediately before the program on some stations, Isakoff said CBN has turned down requests by Basic Organics and GNC to advertise on “The 700 Club.â€

Robertson’s shake recipe is still available on the CBN Web site. Alongside it is this advice: “You can purchase health supplements and shake products from high quality health food stores, like GNC.â€

The commercialization of Robertson’s shake drew fire from the Trinity Foundation, a Dallas-based religious media watchdog organization. Trinity has been critical of past Robertson business ventures, such as his African gold and diamond mines and Kalo-Vita, a multi level marketing company that sold vitamins and cosmetics.

Ole Anthony, Trinity’s president, said Robertson improperly used his tax-exempt, nonprofit ministry to create a market for his shake.

“It wouldn’t exist unless it was promoted on the donor-paid-for airtime,†he said.

Reach Bill Sizemore at (757) 446-2276 or bill.sizemore@pilotonline. com.

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Pat Robertson is the epitome of everything wrong with christianity in america. confused_o.gif

If the guy would have had any decent chance in the '88 preliminaries there might be only 2 branches of goverment in the US left. Thank god he was actually stupid enough to claim that he was a "combat marine" when he had actually spent the whole korean war liquoring up other officers. notworthy.gif

This guy sure is hell lot better businessman than a servant of god. His multi-million-dollar jesus fanclub business has a questionable history to say at least. He has used tax-exempt charity status to set up businesses in 3rd world countries ruled by brutal dictators (while of course being so high and mighty about the evils of communism), support the contras and lot of other shady shit like tex posted.

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Hi all

Pat Robertson is a snake oil sales man same as are many other teli-evangelists.

He comes from the Anti Christ wing of christianity I think.

biggrin_o.gif

Laughing at the gulable fools who follow these idiots walker

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"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said. "We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

What's he talking about? Chavez was democratically elected, he's not a dictator.

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Didn't Jesus say something about NOT killing people? Isn't that on a list of rules or something?

Jesus said "Thou shalt not kill"

Pat Robertson says "Let's kill Chavez!"

banghead.gif

TBA manages to call these comments "inappropriate"

banghead.gifbanghead.gifbanghead.gif

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And americans still wonder why "everyone" hates them? If anything hapens to chavez I wouldn't want to be an american in south america.

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http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/08/24/robertson.chavez/index.html

Quote[/b] ](CNN) -- Conservative religious broadcaster Pat Robertson apologized Wednesday for calling for the assassination of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez during Monday's broadcast of his "700 Club" program.

"Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologize for that statement," he said in a written statement.

Earlier, Robertson said that his remarks about Chavez were taken out of context and that he never called for the killing of the Latin American leader.

"I didn't say 'assassination.' I said our special forces should 'take him out.' And 'take him out' can be a number of things, including kidnapping; there are a number of ways to take out a dictator from power besides killing him. I was misinterpreted by the AP [Associated Press], but that happens all the time," Robertson said on "The 700 Club."

guess he is felling the heat. LOL rofl.gif

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Dictator? Didn't he get elected by the venezuelan people? This whole deal is so stupid. Seeing this, it reminds me of Iran and its religious leaders fatwa against Salman Rushdie. America, the home of the brave or the home of the right wing theocracy?

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Hi all

Interestingly Pat Robertson will be excluded from entry in to the UK as a terrorist under the recently stated deportation and exclusion rules.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4179044.stm

Quote[/b] ]Charles Clarke issued the list of "unacceptable behaviour" by those said to indirectly threaten public order, national security, or the rule of law.
Quote[/b] ]DEPORTATION GROUNDS

Fomenting, justifying or glorifying terrorist violence

Seeking to provoke terrorist acts

Fomenting other serious criminal activity

Fostering hatred that might lead to inter-community violence

Several news media in the UK are making the point that he is now banned from entering the UK. Which is no bad thing we do not want terrorists here.

Kind Regards Walker

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Quote[/b] ]

"I didn't say 'assassination.' I said our special forces should 'take him out.' And 'take him out' can be a number of things, including kidnapping; there are a number of ways to take out a dictator from power besides killing him. I was misinterpreted by the AP [Associated Press], but that happens all the time," Robertson said on "The 700 Club."

This is almost par with "depends on your definition of sex" and "he didnt reveal her name, he just told she was the wife of her husband." rofl.gif

EDIT:

Quote[/b] ]"If he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it," Robertson told viewers on his "The 700 Club" show Monday. "It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war." Watch video of Robertson's comments

Jesus christ (literally), how stupid he thinks people are? crazy_o.gif

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Interestingly Pat Robertson will be excluded from entry in to the UK as a terrorist under the recently stated deportation and exclusion rules.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4179044.stm

Quote[/b] ]Charles Clarke issued the list of "unacceptable behaviour" by those said to indirectly threaten public order, national security, or the rule of law.
Quote[/b] ]DEPORTATION GROUNDS

Fomenting, justifying or glorifying terrorist violence

Seeking to provoke terrorist acts

Fomenting other serious criminal activity

Fostering hatred that might lead to inter-community violence

Several news media in the UK are making the point that he is now banned from entering the UK. Which is no bad thing we do not want terrorists here.

So, when does London mayor Red Ken get shoved off the island? icon_rolleyes.gif

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So, when does London mayor Red Ken get shoved off the island? icon_rolleyes.gif

Aw, has he been wearing a bit-too-bulky jacket on his pleasure jaunts to Tel Aviv?

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"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said. "We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one strong-arm dictator. It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

What's he talking about? Chavez was democratically elected, he's not a dictator.

Quote[/b] ]Dictator? Didn't he get elected by the venezuelan people?

Chavez political career:

Quote[/b] ]Hugo Rafael Chávez Frías (born July 28, 1954) is the President of Venezuela. A former paratroop lieutenant-colonel who led an unsuccessful coup d'état in 1992, he was elected president in 1998. A highly polarising figure in Venezuela, his presidency has seen sweeping changes throughout the country, including a new constitution, many new social programs, and a new foreign policy distancing Venezuela from the United States.

Since he was elected in 1998 on promises of helping the poor, Chávez's influence over Venezuelan politics has grown. One year after a majority of Venezuelans voted to keep him in office, the populist leader consolidated his power, striking a harsh anti-USA tone. He is up for re-election in 2006, and recent polls suggest he has about 70 percent popularity.

Chávez and his administration have been opposed through confrontational methods by some established sectors in Venezuela, including the business federation Fedecámaras and union federation CTV, resulting in a coup d'état, general strike/lockout, and recall referendum, all of which failed to remove him from office. Although the opposition charged that there was widespread fraud in the recall vote, international observers said the official results matched their counts at polling sites. Subsequently Chávez and his allies have won consistent political victories, occupying the vast majority of elected municipal, state, and national posts, as well as majorities in the supreme court, national electoral council and national assembly.

Chávez has been married twice and is currently separated from his second wife, Marisabel Rodríguez de Chávez. He has four children: Rosa Virginia, María Gabriela, Hugo Rafael and Rosinés.

Decide for yourself if he's a dictator. Dictator is such a large definition IMO confused_o.gif

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Quote[/b] ]Apology over kill Chavez TV call

A US TV evangelist has apologised for calling for US special forces to kill Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

Pat Robertson conceded that comments made on his widely-watched TV show amounted to a call for assassination.

On Monday, Pat Robertson said of Mr Chavez: "We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability."

He said he had spoken in frustration, but stood by remarks saying Mr Chavez "makes common cause with terrorists".

In a statement on his website, Mr Robertson, who has a history of making inflammatory remarks, repeated criticisms of Mr Chavez, the twice-elected leftist president of Venezuela.

"Is it right to call for assassination? No, and I apologise for that statement," he said.

"I spoke in frustration that we should accommodate the man who thinks the US is out to kill him.

"Col Chavez has found common cause with terrorists such as the noted assassin Carlos the Jackal, has visited Iran reportedly to gain access to nuclear technology and has referred to Saddam Hussein and Fidel Castro as his comrades," he added.

Backtracking

On Monday, Mr Robertson told viewers of his TV show, the 700 Club, that the US should act on Mr Chavez's recurrent complaints that the US was allegedly trying to assassinate him.

"I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it," he said.

He later argued that there were a number of possible meanings for the phrase "take him out", including kidnapping.

Mr Robertson's remarks come amid tense relations between the two countries.

President Chavez is a regular critic of the US, which regards Venezuela as a possible source of instability in the region.

He has accused the US of trying to topple his government.

A US State Department spokesman, Sean McCormack, has stressed that Mr Robertson's remarks do not reflect US policy.

"I would say that Pat Robertson is a private citizen and that his views do not represent the policy of the United States," he said on Tuesday.

'Not US policy'

On Monday, Mr Robertson said Mr Chavez posed a real threat to US interests in the region.

"We don't need another $200bn war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he said.

"It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

The comments were subsequently reported by the Associated Press and other media outlets, but on Wednesday Mr Robertson said the remarks were misconstrued.

"I didn't say 'assassination', I said our special forces could take him out. Take him out could be a number of things including kidnapping," he said.

"Any allegations that we are planning to take hostile action against the Venezuelan government are completely baseless," Mr McCormack said in response.

Venezuela is the fifth-largest oil exporter and a major supplier of oil to the United States.

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Dictator? Didn't he get elected by the venezuelan people? This whole deal is so stupid. Seeing this, it reminds me of Iran and its religious leaders fatwa against Salman Rushdie. America, the home of the brave or the home of the right wing theocracy?

Amen!

Thing is the people doing the most to stop this crap are Americans too. Would make things so much easier if we could just hate them all biggrin_o.gif

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Ahhh, I'm going to regret sticking my head in here, but I feel I must clarify something.

Quote[/b] ]Jesus said "Thou shalt not kill"

That is incorrect.  The correct translation is "Thou shalt not murder.  Goverments are allowed to kill by waging just wars and through capital punishment.  So, a special forces team could be justified assasinating a foreign dignitary with the command of their goverment.

Now to the subject at hand, I would say Chaves is a threat to America:

The whole article

Specifically:

Quote[/b] ]Today, the US remains the top buyer of Venezuelan crude. Venezuela is still the third-largest foreign supplier of oil to the US, and owns CITGO, one of the largest refinery complexes and gas distribution networks in the US. But this could change. Chávez warned recently that the daily 1.5 million-barrel supply to US ports could be halted if US "aggressions" against his government continue. "Ships filled with Venezuelan oil, instead of going to the United States, could go somewhere else," he threatened at a World Youth Day event on Aug. 14 in Caracas. "The US market is not indispensable" for Venezuela, he said.

I ask anyone who might know, what "agressions" is he talking about? huh.gif (I sincerely don't know)

However, no matter what, he is threatening our economy, which is just as bad as threatening us militarily.  Of course, if the enviromentalists would be concerned for America for once and let us drill in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico, men like Chaves wouldn't be a concern for us... whistle.gif

Quote[/b] ]Would make things so much easier if we could just hate them all

And why do you hate us?  What have we done to you or your country to warrant such hate?  America stands by it's friends, as Britain can attest to, and defeats it's enemies, as Japan, Germany, the Soviet Union and Irag can attest to, to name a few.  

If you hate us for our freedoms, our capitalism, our blessings from God, our military power, our unique system of goverment, our just constitution or our industrious people, then let us be hated.

-Student Pilot

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there isn't that much oil in alsaska. makes more sense to try and move over to biodiesle which would help farmers as well.

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There is a lot of oil in Alaska, anywhere from 5.5-16 billion barrels of oil. Drilling in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico would really help our enery problem, as would opening more nuclear power plants.

As for biodiesel, we couldn't grow enough corn to meet demand. Biodiesel as a permament fix for our energy problem is a fantasy.

-Student Pilot

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There is a lot of oil in Alaska, anywhere from 5.5-16 billion barrels of oil. Drilling in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico would really help our enery problem, as would opening more nuclear power plants.

Yes, why drive something else besides SUVs when you can rape the enviroment and exhaust your reserves before you TRULY need them. icon_rolleyes.gif Ditto on the nukers though.

Or maybe we need one of these:

300px-Ford_Nucleon.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Nucleon

Quote[/b] ]

Marty McFly: [looks through a camcorder] This is uh... This is heavy duty, Doc. This is great. Uh... does it run, like... on regular unleaded gasoline?

Dr. Emmett Brown: Unfortunately no, it requires something with a little more kick - plutonium.

tounge2.gif

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Quote[/b] ]However, no matter what, he is threatening our economy, which is just as bad as threatening us militarily. Of course, if the enviromentalists would be concerned for America for once and let us drill in Alaska and the Gulf of Mexico, men like Chaves wouldn't be a concern for us...

I fail to see how he is threatening your economy in such a way as to require overt action on your part.

His country owns the oil. They choose to sell it to you. They can also choose not to sell it to you. Its as simple as that. An economy that has geared itself for total reliance on other countries oil, shouldn't go around pissing other countries off! To be honest, it should try to be as nice as possible. Do you have any idea what would happen if the Middle East stopped supplying the US? Economic meltdown.

Whats to say they wish to stop selling to the US? What do you do? Go in and steal it? Talk about undermining your principles.

As for Alaska oil, the predictions are optomistic, and even if they yeild resonable finds, they would only last 2-3 years at current usage rates. That doesn't factor in that it would take at least 5 years minimum to get peak production from the sites.

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Quote[/b] ]And why do you hate us? What have we done to you or your country to warrant such hate? America stands by it's friends, as Britain can attest to, and defeats it's enemies, as Japan, Germany, the Soviet Union and Irag can attest to, to name a few.

If you hate us for our freedoms, our capitalism, our blessings from God, our military power, our unique system of goverment, our just constitution or our industrious people, then let us be hated.

-Student Pilot

Your country has overthrown legitimate and democraticaly elected governments in south america and the middle east and replaced them by some of the most horribly oppressive regimes yet. Your nation that was so blessed by god sanctioned the torturing and murdering of political opponents by people like Pinochet, Fidela and Saddam Hussein as long as US bussiness interest weren't nationalised.

That ideal of democratic freedom you love to wave about is a privilige you only reserve for yourselves and you are all to keen to pervert other peoples freedom's if those contradict your interests. The mere notion you put forward that the people of Venezualas choice should be made void by murdering the people THEY chose to lead them simply because he is a problem to your economy .... how very christian of you.

The Iran you so two facedly condemn today is only there because your countries intelligence services attempt to pervert the democratic will of the Iranian people because it ran a-foul of american bussiness interests and you reinstalled the Sjah.

You are not hated for your freedom's, compared to european nations you have rediculously few freedom's ... merely the right to arm yourself.

You are not hated for your military power, in this new international reality military power doesnt really account for much as you are learning in Iraq. No army in the world will win you peace.

Your two party farce of a democracy with its clear and obvious flaws does not make you that subject of envy, more ridicule. You remember those great elections that bush "won"? Hanging chads and all? You remember who offered you help from his expert vote counters? Yes it was your old buddy Saddam. I laughed till I cried.

Your just constitution is indeed a pioneering document, too bad you have strayed so far from it and have failed to apply its spirit to your actions as a nation. "We hold these truths to be self evident, all men are born equal" ... untill they elect someone you dont like ofcourse.

Your industrious people are being bled dry by bussiness fat cats while their jobs are being outsourced. I dont feel thats anything to be proud of.

Tell the "America stands by its friends" to the Montagnard people you so heroically abandoned to their North Vietnamese victors or to the karen people you abandoned to their fates. These people are to this day being hunted by army units through the south east asian jungle like animals because you "stood by them" in such a great fashion. Tell that story to the kurds you incited to rebel against saddam and then left to their own devices.

I don't hate you as a person but it seems to me you are pretty naive and haven't spent that much time studying what your country's leader preach and what they end up practicing.

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America stands by it's friends, as Britain can attest to

Uh... when?

If you're going to pull the "you owe us for WW2" card I'd think about it first. I'm tired of hearing that, when if nothing had been done the US would probably be in partnership with the nazis, until they had become equipped in sufficient numbers to wipe out the US too.

The US was ripping off the UK selling this, that and whatever else it could, bleeding them dry while they struggled against the Nazis from 1939, when the war actually started. Don't tell me the UK owes the US anything, unless you are willing to say we need to pay for our freedom which you keep telling us you allowed us to have.

The UK didn't wait for the enemy to attack them before entering, that's an over-used argument, but let's face the fact that if Pearl Harbour hadn't happened then the US might never have entered the war, at least until the buyers of their equipment were wipped out and the war was no longer profitable in its current state, at which point it would wade in, save the day, and no doubt charge the world for it's services.

Yeah, I think that's "standing by your friends."

And I almost forgot to mention that as well as all of this, the US film industry draws the picture that europe lay there and took it, any victories gained by the Allied forces changed to be Americans (take your pic of instances, U-571, they were british who found the enigma, Pearl Harbour, leads many americans to beleive that the majority of pilots were infact american when I beleive there were a grand total of 11 actually in combat operations) and you could say they're only films, but when a large number of people in the US seems to use the media and particuarly films as their education, it can lead to a "rather" distorted view of history which I wouldn't have a problem with if it didn't ignore the battles fought (and the people lost) by the european nations.

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Ahhh, I knew I would regret posting here.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, why drive something else besides SUVs when you can rape the enviroment and exhaust your reserves before you TRULY need them. Ditto on the nukers though.

Uhhhh, the more polution there is, the better the trees are off. Sound stupid? Wait, what do trees and all plants breathe in...Carbon Dioxide! What waste is produced by plants...Oxygen. So, if there is less carbon dioxide in the air and more oxygen, the plants will suffer. SUV drivers are saving the enviroment! tounge2.gif

Quote[/b] ]His country owns the oil. They choose to sell it to you. They can also choose not to sell it to you. Its as simple as that. An economy that has geared itself for total reliance on other countries oil, shouldn't go around pissing other countries off!

Yes, I can agree with you there, which is why we should drill in Alaska! We should be independant of people like Chavez.

Quote[/b] ]Your nation that was so blessed by god sanctioned the torturing and murdering of political opponents by people like Pinochet, Fidela and Saddam Hussein as long as US bussiness interest weren't nationalised.

Yes, we do try to protect our businesses. To not do so is folly. Are you saying Iraq was better off with Saddam Hussein? The people over there seem pretty happy (the news media's views notwithstanding)

Quote[/b] ]The Iran you so two facedly condemn today is only there because your countries intelligence services attempt to pervert the democratic will of the Iranian people because it ran a-foul of american bussiness interests and you reinstalled the Sjah.

So are you saying the Iran is better off without the Shah?! Look at Iran today, it's a hell hole! And, you may remember, the current regime took a few of our embassy personel hostage. Maybe that is why we don't like them?

Quote[/b] ]You are not hated for your freedom's, compared to european nations you have rediculously few freedom's ... merely the right to arm yourself.

We do have a bill of rights, and for the most part those rights are still with us today. Although you are right on one point, recently our property rights were taken away. This is a damn shame and must not last!

Quote[/b] ]You are not hated for your military power, in this new international reality military power doesnt really account for much as you are learning in Iraq. No army in the world will win you peace.

You have been checking out the mainstream media, haven't you. In case you don't know, Iraq has a constitution. We are making progress. Look at what happened in Gulf War '91. Did Saddam's forces have a good time? No, they got their asses kicked because of American military power.

Quote[/b] ]Your two party farce of a democracy with its clear and obvious flaws does not make you that subject of envy, more ridicule. You remember those great elections that bush "won"? Hanging chads and all? You remember who offered you help from his expert vote counters? Yes it was your old buddy Saddam. I laughed till I cried.

Do you remember who launched the recounts, that's right, Al Gore. That was pathetic on the liberal's part. As for Saddam offering vote counters, I don't remember that, so I can't comment. As for the two parties, I would rather have 2 parties and get something done than have 6 parties and have them bickering all the time, accomplishing nothing.

Quote[/b] ]Your just constitution is indeed a pioneering document, too bad you have strayed so far from it and have failed to apply its spirit to your actions as a nation. "We hold these truths to be self evident, all men are born equal" ... untill they elect someone you dont like ofcourse.

Yes, we are still recovering from the 1960s and '70s. Those were low points in our history. But do you recall who was in power during those times?

Quote[/b] ]Your industrious people are being bled dry by bussiness fat cats while their jobs are being outsourced. I dont feel thats anything to be proud of.

ROFLMAO!!! I laugh so hard when I hear comments like these. You people really hate capitalism, don't you?

Quote[/b] ]Tell the "America stands by its friends" to the Montagnard people you so heroically abandoned to their North Vietnamese victors or to the karen people you abandoned to their fates. These people are to this day being hunted by army units through the south east asian jungle like animals because you "stood by them" in such a great fashion. Tell that story to the kurds you incited to rebel against saddam and then left to their own devices.

The Vietnam war was a disgrace. And it was all because of politicians medling in the affairs of the military. I would also like to point out again, who was running the country then? The conservatives? Nope, the liberals.

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Quote[/b] ]I don't hate you as a person but it seems to me you are pretty naive and haven't spent that much time studying what your country's leader preach and what they end up practicing.

The feeling is mutual.

Quote[/b] ]Uh... when?

If you're going to pull the "you owe us for WW2" card I'd think about it first.

Hmm, London, Germany. That's what it would be without us. But I won't use WWII. How about WWI? Who went to Gulf War '91 together? Who are two very good trading partners? Britian and the US are friends, and we both benefit from it.

Quote[/b] ]and no doubt charge the world for it's services.

Uhhh, as I recall, most of the war debts from WWI and WWII from the European nations to America were dropped by America.

Quote[/b] ]And I almost forgot to mention that as well as all of this, the US film industry draws the picture that europe lay there and took it

I am not denying the valor of European soldiers. And yes, we do have problems with Hollywood. I agree with you there.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, I think that's "standing by your friends."

Would you rather America was never Britain's friend? Would you rather America fought for the Germans in WWI and WWII? Would you rather America and Britain were never trading partners? We both benefit from the trade partnership and the friendship.

-Student Pilot

P.S. As I said above, I regret posting here. We all have different views. This board seem to me to be a place for those who hate America to share ideas. I am out of place here. I post once and get 4 replies all telling me I am wrong and that America and Americans are evil or stupid. Some of the replies slandered me for my views. I just wanted to have a discussion here. There is too much emotion driving the replies. To end my little speech: I have tried not to slander others in my short discussion. If I have done so, please forgive me.

EDIT:

Quote[/b] ]The mere notion you put forward that the people of Venezualas choice should be made void by murdering the people THEY chose to lead them simply because he is a problem to your economy .... how very christian of you.

If you recall, I never advocated assasinating him. If the people of Venezuala want him, they can keep him. However, you comment about being Christian shows you don't understand the religion. Goverments have the authority to kill people in certain circumstances. One is war, the other, capital punishment. This is a choice to be made by the goverment, not the individual.

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