USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[harley 3 1185 0]

The only way to get that kind of a resolution passed before the House would be to get the support of some hard-hitting Senators, who seem to be oh so few these days. I'll have to scour the Senate website and see who votes what on what issues.

By the way, has anyone noticed how quickly the outrage over the shutting down of certain U.S. bases quietened down? I've visited Portsmouth, ME before-had a good look round, and it's sure as hell gonna suffer with the Navy leaving. Shame too, as it's a very nice town too. TBA must have made some sort of concession there, or promised something big to the citizenry.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/16/us.iraqresolution/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The Republican congressman who pushed for "french fries" to be renamed "freedom fries" joined a bipartisan group of House members Thursday to call on President Bush to begin plans for a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq.

Rep. Walter Jones of North Carolina said it is time for Congress to start talking about bringing American troops home from Iraq.

A White House spokesman emphasized the need to complete the mission and said Bush would "sharpen his focus" in his public appearances to counter a sag in public support for the war.

The proposed House resolution calls on Bush to announce by year's end a plan for a withdrawal from Iraq that would begin by October 1, 2006.

"After 1,700 deaths, over 12,000 wounded and $200 billion spent, we believe it is time to have this debate and this discussion on this resolution," said Jones, a member of the House Armed Services Committee.

Other sponsors are Republican Rep. Ron Paul, a former Libertarian presidential candidate from Texas; Democratic Rep. Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii, another Armed Services Committee member; and Ohio Rep. Dennis Kucinich, who sought the Democratic presidential nomination as an antiwar candidate last year.

Polls show flagging public support for the two-year-old war. A Gallup survey last week found that 56 percent of those polled thought the war was not worth the cost, and 59 percent said some or all U.S. troops should be pulled out. (Full story)

White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the resolution would send the wrong message to the world at a time when the insurgency against U.S. troops and Iraqi forces is in "a desperate mode."

"We all want our troops to return home soon," McClellan said. "The best way to get our troops home and to honor them is to complete the mission in Iraq."

"That means continuing to train Iraqi forces so that they can take over all of the security of their own country and provide for their own defense."

McClellan said Bush realizes that Americans are concerned about the conflict in Iraq, "and that's why he's going to sharpen his focus, spending more time talking about the progress that's being made on the ground."

The president will give an address in Washington on June 28, the one-year anniversary of the transfer of power from U.S.-led occupation forces to an interim Iraqi government, McClellan said.

Putting aside differences

Jones voted for the October 2002 congressional resolution that gave Bush the authority to launch the invasion of Iraq the following March.

He also pushed for the House cafeteria to adopt "freedom fries," as a snub to France because of its opposition to the U.S. drive for war.

Speaking at news conference Thursday, Jones said "no one is talking about cutting and running" but that it was time for the United States to begin handing over responsibility to Iraq's transitional government.

"Clearly we are giving the Iraqis every reasonable chance for democracy," he said.

"But at some time in the near future, the ultimate fact of Iraq will and should rest in the hands of Iraqis. We will continue to support them in their efforts, but they cannot forever be dependent upon America as a primary defense force in Iraq."

Kucinich said he hoped the proposal would be "the basis for the beginning of the end of the war in Iraq."

"It's right here, and it's happened because four members of Congress put aside any kind of differences that we may have had in the run-up to the war and the conduct of the war, and we're saying this is the way to bring our troops home," Kucinich said.

jee, want to bail out already? seems like we have a theme going here. fast food and french .. oops .. freedom fries are representation of quick food. now they want to quickly withdraw from Iraq. Guess that place is very stabilized now...

[harley 3 1185 0]

The dumb schmuck finally realised he has these things called "Constituents", and wants a chance at being re-elected next year when all those boys and gals from North Carolina who are in Iraq right now go to the ballot-boxes. I imagine those who are serving in Iraq at the moment are looking at this kind of news with great interest...

[Bordoy 0]

The only way to get that kind of a resolution passed before the House would be to get the support of some hard-hitting Senators, who seem to be oh so few these days.  I'll have to scour the Senate website and see who votes what on what issues.

By the way, has anyone noticed how quickly the outrage over the shutting down of certain U.S. bases quietened down?  I've visited Portsmouth, ME before-had a good look round, and it's sure as hell gonna suffer with the Navy leaving.  Shame too, as it's a very nice town too.  TBA must have made some sort of concession there, or promised something big to the citizenry.

Where are they off to mate? I thought Portsmouth was the main naval base, but i know there's one at Plymouth aswell.

[harley 3 1185 0]

, Oops. Sorry Bordoy, should have made it clearer. I meant Portsmouth, Maine in North East U.S.A., where they tend to service submarines and guided missile destroyers. Worry not, our Portsmouth is quite safe for the time being, even from the hands of Blair and his gang.

[Bordoy 0]

, Oops.  Sorry Bordoy, should have made it clearer.  I meant Portsmouth, Maine in North East U.S.A., where they tend to service submarines and guided missile destroyers.  Worry not, our Portsmouth is quite safe for the time being, even from the hands of Blair and his gang.

My fault mate, just re-read it and you did say

"US Naval Bases"

and

"Portsmouth, ME"

[billybob2002 0]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....pf.html

Quote[/b] ]Poll shows slump in trust between French, Americans

Reuters

Friday, June 17, 2005; 12:42 PM

PARIS (Reuters) - Trust between the French and Americans has slumped to its lowest level in 17 years, more than two years after a bitter feud over the Iraq war, an opinion poll showed on Friday.

The TNS-Sofres survey of 1,000 people in each country showed only 31 percent of French people have any "sympathy" for Americans, down from 39 percent in 2002.

Only 35 percent of Americans like the French, a drop from 50 percent in 2002, according to the poll, published in the Le Monde newspaper.

French President Jacques Chirac infuriated Washington and helped create anti-French feeling by his opposition to the Iraq war and his advocacy of a world in which the European Union would counterbalance U.S. power.

Americans retaliated by renaming French fries "freedom fries" and some even stopped buying French wine.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visited France in February to help repair ties. She was greeted warmly and her visit was deemed successful.

The survey showed an overwhelming 70 percent of French people believe the United States is not a loyal ally. Fifty-six percent of Americans said France was not a reliable partner.

French people with left-wing views are most likely to be hostile to Americans, the survey found. Left-wing French voters drove France's rejection last month of the EU constitution. Many who voted 'No' said they feared the charter would impose U.S.-style free-market economics on Europe.

In the United States, ]Democrats and the black community have a better image of France while 39 percent of Republicans said they do not like France.

French people openly supported French-speaking Democrat John Kerry in last November's presidential election, infuriating President Bush's Republican supporters.

I'm sorry Sophion-Black, you are the voice of America... The French "hate" us, from this poll, more than we "hate" them. What does that tell us...

[SPQR 0]

The French "hate" us, from this poll, more than we "hate" them. What does that tell us...

From only what is told in this article, I dare concluding that this poll could have a far different result with Frenchs if more explicit questions had been asked and not general blurry ones.

Instead of "Do you have any "sympathy" for Americans ?" and "Do you believe the United States to be a reliable ally", you should ask :

- Do you have any "sympathy" for American people ?

 Whole ? Part ? Explain (open question)

- Do you have any "sympathy" for the Bush Administration ?

- Do you believe the Bush Administration to be a reliable ally ?

I believe, maybe naively, that the results could be fairly differents.

As USA divided into two camps, for and against the war, France is not only composed of 90% of live-dreaming red commies waiting for the revolution

The will to wage war in Iraq is the main french reason of antipathy towards the US. We told you it would be a bloody mess, in human and political terms, that they were no links (yet) between AQ and Saddam. All we were told was "f.ck off white flagged froggies"....

And Get rid of the Democracy and Liberty argument, when you prefer to look away from Cuba (no more under USSR's protection) , North Korea and many many others dictatorial governments.

I'd like to recall that France didn't make any fuss about Afghanistan and war against the Talibans. On the contrary, TBA refused to involve, at the beginning of the conflict, France, as if TBA and its neo-con allies already despised us...

Actually, currently, the US SF and others troops involved in firefights in Afghanistan seem pretty happy to be supported by french SEM or Mirage 2000D using precisely LGBs  

For myself I despise as much half of the US people made of warmongers and other Freedom crusaders as the french people's part believing in hard leftist or rightist ideologies.

Maybe we should give power the the hard-leftists, in order that the Frenchs recieving a harsh lesson, seeing them break everything while telling it was not their fault. A hard strike in full face is often a better lesson than being told thousand times nice whispers (hoping they won't make the wrong conclusions of the lesson)  

Maybe do we think too much about that... ?  

Vive le France and le USA

[SFWanabe 0]

The French are ok people when you let them have they're way.

[SPQR 0]

The French are ok people when you let them have they're way.

Isn't it true for any people ? Until they create collateral damages to neighbours while caring only for themselves, selfishally.

Anyway, I prefer friends ready to tell me honestly I'm making a mistake than boot-licking friends telling me I'm the greatest  

[harley 3 1185 0]

Just don't mention "La Francophonie" to the Gaullists; they'll probably get misty-eyed and start bellowing out La Marseillaise at full pelt.  France in my opinion needs a good swing either to the left of the Socialists or the far right of le Front National-nothing that will bring down the Glorious Fifth Republic but something which will bring change.  For all his American-style rhetoric, Nicholas Sarkozy, whilst attracting the tradionally Gaullist voters from Chirac, would never be much of a reformer.  He has been far too much of an UMP man for that - plus he also wants to get elected in '07   .

The French Government, with the support of it's people (a rarity in French political history), opposed itself to the Invasion of Iraq quite justifiably due to what it called "a lack of evidence" towards the claim of "Weapons of Mass Destruction".  The French, in the past three years, have stuck to their stance, that there were no WMDs, that the war was ill-advised,  and that it would be a mistake.

The American and British Governments, and their peoples to a lesser extent(lesser so Britain, for sure), have changed their attitude markedly.

Who is better?  The friend who gives advice and their decision and sticks by it?  Or the friend who realises that they were wrong but refuses to admit it?

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]From only what is told in this article, I dare concluding that this poll could have a far different result with Frenchs if more explicit questions had been asked and not general blurry ones.

That is why I put "" around hate (should of had used less sympathy...a little better). Then again, they probably wanted to generalize just because.

Quote[/b] ]The will to wage war in Iraq is the main french reason of antipathy towards the US.

Yeah, it is no secret that Iraq was the reason why antipathy increased and sympathy decreased here in the US towards France.

Quote[/b] ]Anyway, I prefer friends ready to tell me I'll make a mistake than friennds telling me I'm the greatest

But, is there a limit for trying to sway?   You didn't see Germany catch flak like France got.

[ran 0]

But, is there a limit for trying to sway? You didn't see Germany catch flak like France got.

France is the nation that offered the most cheap shots to fire at.

Germany and Russia backed most if not all of the decisions and words chosen by the french and also made their own statements, don't forget that.

[Bordoy 0]

I don't think you can just group people as French. As there is good Frenchies who people like, and others who people hate.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Of course the key fact as I have said about the continued dislike of France by some Americans and others from nations in the coalition is their Paranoid Guilt.

France was 100% right about Iraq not having WMD, about Iraq having no links to Al Qaida and about Iraq having no link with 9/11.

Their only hiding place is Fox news and a fantasy that France did it but as the commies in the soviet union found you cannot hide from truth forever.

Major US news agencies tried to ignore the Downing Street memo but in an internet age you cannot hide from the truth, and it has started to appear in the US main stream news media; TBA made up all the reports about Iraq and WMD, Al Qaida and 9/11 so they could start a war. And aparently looking at what has happened since so they could steal the oil in that 7 billion dollar Oil heist; oh and get the American Tax payer to pay Halliburton the biggest social security cheque in history.

Those same folks who never owned up to the fact that they got it wrong and their guilt at having killed and maimed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis for nothing. Not to mention the over 7000 coalition troops also maimed and killed must realy trouble those folks concienses.

They know the rest of the world knows they got it wrong. So they know how the rest of the world views them. That would make anyone paranoid.

Not dealing with that guilt must be eating away at their insides. It is why catholics have confesion as they say it is good for their soul.

Until those folks confess their sins they will keep being ridden by guilt.

Sadly walker

[ran 0]

I don't think you can just group people as French. As there is good Frenchies who people like, and others who people hate.

Pretty retarded comment... we could say the same about the brits and the englishmen for exemple...

[Bordoy 0]

I don't think you can just group people as French. As there is good Frenchies who people like, and others who people hate.

Pretty retarded comment... we could say the same about the brits and the englishmen for exemple...

Why is retarded?

You get people who say they hate The French, or the Germans or the Argentines. They probably haven't met any, but they hate all of them. You think thats right? Because that is what it sounded like.

[ran 0]

I don't think you can just group people as French. As there is good Frenchies who people like, and others who people hate.

Pretty retarded comment... we could say the same about the brits and the englishmen for exemple...

Why is retarded?

You get people who say they hate The French, or the Germans or the Argentines. They probably haven't met any, but they hate all of them. You think thats right? Because that is what it sounded like.

I don't think it's right, not at all, but "where's the love ?" and the few remains of good sense under the ozone layer ?

Hating a people, or people from a certain nationality is just stupid. You can hold a few grudges against individuals you know personnaly but not against people you don't know.

I know people from the opposite side of the political spectrum who are really nice and people sharing the same opinions as I who are finished bastards and retards.

French people are people regrouped under the same geographical borders, that's all. Expressing a feeling as strong as hatred toward such a blurry entity is dumb.

In my opinion, you can only hate things you really know. Repulsion toward the things and people you don't really know is just simple dislike and a natural defensive mechanism against difference, not only physical but political and any other aspect of a human being you could imagine.

It naturally happens every once in a while that such dislike, or annoyance by the difference in the other's belief turns itself into real hatred as a result of some kind of crowd effect as you all know that crowds are always more dangrous and primitive than single individuals.

What I didn't like in your reply was the "good" frenchies. Good people aren't always the most loved

-edit-:

I hope it made some sense as I'm a bit tired. And I guess this little argument is born from a misunderstanding of your comment.

[Bordoy 0]

I understand mate. But if i was asked a question (like the americans), Do you like French?

I wouldn't answer yes or no. It would have to be a don't know or no comment given on the answers available.

[Sophion-Black 0]

Hi all

Of course the key fact as I have said about the continued dislike of France by some Americans and others from nations in the coalition is their Paranoid Guilt.

France was 100% right about Iraq not having WMD, about Iraq having no links to Al Qaida and about Iraq having no link with 9/11.

Their only hiding place is Fox news and a fantasy that France did it but as the commies in the soviet union found you cannot hide from truth forever.

Major US news agencies tried to ignore the Downing Street memo but in an internet age you cannot hide from the truth, and it has started to appear in the US main stream news media; TBA made up all the reports about Iraq and WMD, Al Qaida and 9/11 so they could start a war. And aparently looking at what has happened since so they could steal the oil in that 7 billion dollar Oil heist; oh and get the American Tax payer to pay Halliburton the biggest social security cheque in history.

Those same folks who never owned up to the fact that they got it wrong and their guilt at having killed and maimed tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis for nothing. Not to mention the over 7000 coalition troops also maimed and killed must realy trouble those folks concienses.

They know the rest of the world knows they got it wrong. So they know how the rest of the world views them. That would make anyone paranoid.

Not dealing with that guilt must be eating away at their insides. It is why catholics have confesion as they say it is good for their soul.

Until those folks confess their sins they will keep being ridden by guilt.

Sadly walker

DID YOU READ ALL THE PREVIUOS POSTS!?!?!?!?!?!?

the main reason the US people hate the French is NOT because of the Iraq war!!! We hate them because of a cumilation spaning nearly 2 centureis!!! and if you post another post about relegion ill ask for you to be censored by a moderator. You're starting to "force ones relegion onto another man". besides, this is a Politics thread not a Releigon thread.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]the main reason the US people hate the French is NOT because of the Iraq war!!! We hate them because of a cumilation spaning nearly 2 centureis!!!

Actually, there was a significant drop for "popularity" for the French during the build-up of the Iraq war (50% in 2002 and now 35% in 2005 from that poll). It has been more than 17 years that it was like this (heard that from somewere... ). So, the Iraq war is the major reason now (the key) that their popularity is down here in America. But, it was never that "high" to begin with but more "average".

Quote[/b] ]Germany and Russia backed most if not all of the decisions and words chosen by the french and also made their own statements, don't forget that.

What about the travels to Africa for votes? I didn't hear Germany or Russia trying to sway UN members to their side like the French did.

[walker 0]

DID YOU READ ALL THE PREVIUOS POSTS!?!?!?!?!?!?

the main reason the US people hate the French is NOT because of the Iraq war!!! We hate them because of a cumilation spaning nearly 2 centureis!!! and if you post another post about relegion ill ask for you to be censored by a moderator. You're starting to "force ones relegion onto another man". besides, this is a Politics thread not a Releigon thread.

Hi Sophion-Black

I mention religion in passing in the post. It is one of the ways people who supported the war on Iraq can deal with their feelings of guilt.

They can just as easily go to a thrapist.

Or as I have done just say here and in other places that I got it wrong. I should not have supported the war I trusted my countries administrative leader. He either lied to me or was not competant enough to assess the situation and is thus not competant to run the defense of the country I live in, herinafter refered to as the UK.

I accept that the adminstrative leader the UK, herinafter refered to as Tony Blair, may have out of some loyalty owed to UK's main ally, herinafter refered to as the USA, accepted on face value, certain inteligence on Iraq, while having good reason to believe it was faked up, witness the Downing Street Memo.

That said if Tony Blair wishes to use said defence then he must fess up to the fact. Leaking the Dearlove letter to point out that the UK was acting out of Loyalty to the USA who had at the time an Adminstration (The Bush Administration (TBA). )running amok; is not sufficient.

If Tony Blair wishes to blame TBA he has to come out and say TBA was to blame for the war. Leaking the Downing Street Memo and others to show that TBA was engaged in lieing to the UN, the UK, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Rusia, etc indeed the world. And then to claim as Tony Blair seems to be doing through the leaks that the UK was involved in the war out of loyalty to the USA is neither honnest or courageous.

I feel some anger at TBA for dragging Tony Blair into this mire of pooh.

While I do not like him as a person for Tony Blair's involvement in suporting TBA's lie to the world and to the people living in the UK. I am also torn by the fact that until this stupid war Tony Blair has been part of the team that has best organised the economy of the UK in centuries, and I am loath to see that team broken up.

I fully recognise that Gordon Brown may well have been the person at the economic tiller but loosing Tony Blair as now seems inevitably mean Gordon Brown will move from his place as the economic custodian of the UK to the role of head of the UK's Administration. I then question who will be the person to replace Gordon and will he do as good a job.

The plain fact is that Tony Blair's adminstration of the UK under Gordon Brown's navigation of the economy has placed the UK back in the best run countries in the world, we are now ranked 4th in terms of GDP in the world; after the decades of dammage done to the UK's economy by Thatcher.

I recognise that the Iraq war and TBA's playing of the ally card, as it were calling in the special relationship marker has probably used up that marker and that in the long term the UK's best interest is best served by closer defense relations with Europe rather than the US.

That is already the economic case The UK's Chief trading partner is Europe as it it acounts for somwhere in the region of over 50% of UK exports being to Europe where as the USA is a piddling 15.7%. That is why the UK has been protected from the decline in the US economy, that plus China. In the past if the US caught an economic cold the rest of the world went with it; that is no longer the case.

The US may be suffering record defecits, unemployment and gas prices but here in the UK and Europe we are not feeling it. So the UK's reliance on the US economy is broken.

It is only natural that in the light of the TBA's Iraq lies we should re-examine our defense posture and consider closer defense links with the rest of Europe rather than the USA.

Kind Regards Walker

[SPQR 0]

What about the travels to Africa for votes? I didn't hear Germany or Russia trying to sway UN members to their side like the French did.

C'mon, Bob, that sound rather pathetic and childish

Your government did absolutly the same thing in Africa and all over the world, as France, fighting hard for their "truth", in order to win polls, and some of these diplomats having economical threaths and helps in their case...

Germany has no veto power and decided to choose to talk with the same voice as France, and Russia was too happy to see someone else ready to use the veto power (like UK being too happy about the French and Dutch NO for the EU constitution, no risk anymore to be viewed as the european black duck, what I call hypocrisy, which is an old human habit, not just a British one).

Rather funny to read an american found of Fox News trying to teach me about Europe (as If I tried to give lessons about US and inter-states relationships)

[GoOB 0]

I understand mate. But if i was asked a question (like the americans), Do you like French?

Wouldn't the answer be that French people are all individuals with diffrent qualities and that it is impossible to just call them "French" and say that you hate them? And possibly admit to that they have a government that isn't particularly to your'e liking and that they have had some foreign policies in the past, and perhaps in the present that aren't to your'e liking either.

People are too eager to hate or dislike, judging from where a country stand politically. To me it's just sickening.

(Sorry for the totally unrelated rant, but I'm hungover and bored)

[harley 3 1185 0]

Whoa, Bob, don't start discussing the British economy without knowing anything about it.

Yes, Margeret Thatcher DID damage the British economy, but the damage she wrought was necessary.  Millions were put out of work, un-necessary surplus production capability was cast off, and the British economy under Thatcher became a far leaner beast with which to take on the powerhouse of West Germany.  John Major carried on the process of de-nationalisation, then signed the Treaties ensuring economic integration wth Europe.  Thanks to his government, Britain weathered the 1992 "Black Wednesday" fiasco well, Britain's forced expulsion from the European Exchange Rate Mechanism was a blessing in disguise - from then on we weren't affected as the European economies stumbled under the weight of the newly-independent Eastern economies (East Germany nearly obliterating the West German economy).

Thanks to Thatcher and Major, Britain's economy was in a very good situation.  ANYONE who can say that Brown and Blair have managed the economy well is deluding themselves.  We spend twice as much on the Railways now than when the government ran it not ten years ago.  Government spending has doubled in five years, government borrowing has increased two-fold - it is a well-known fact here that Brown pumps more money into certain regions than the Soviets would have done (North East England-50% of all purchasing/spending there is government money in one form or another).  Then there's all the money wasted on Devolution, giving Scotland and Wales more money per person than England, to give them some sense of "Independence", like when you give one son more pocket money than the other to see how he wastes it.  For many people, it was a case of "Wait and see" as to when the economy would start to stumble.  The first MAJOR warning came on the morning of the General Election (coincidence?).  The foolish public's belief that Labour has done a good job will cost this country her financial well-being in the next four years, destroying the work of two Conservative Governments and all those people who were laid-off in the 80s and might get laid-off again very soon.

Very sadly, Harley