USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[gsleighter 0]

In case nobody was watching, Congress voted down the 700 billion dollar bail-out for wall st.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26884523/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26945513#26944027

for once the democrats in congress didn't arbitrary follow Bush's orders.

First, I'm a registered Dem, so this isn't an attack thread, but the Democrats approved of the measure by more than 50 percent. Republican support fell below 33 percent in the house, and that's why the bill failed.

Source - CNN

Link - http://money.cnn.com/2008....cnn=yes

@Scubaman -

I watched the entire interview with Palin, and it seemed she didn't know how to answer much of anything. And everybody had their hands in the subprime mortgage debacle. Everybody in Washington got warm fuzzies by creating housing opportunities for the poor. And it was private, and not subsidized, so even conservatives could get next to it.

This is everyone's fault. Every American (Myself included) contributing to the trillions of dollars of credit, auto, and mortgage debt when most of us can't afford it is at fault.

I would say based on the CNN debate, McCain has no idea how to handle an economic crisis, although held his own very well when the debate steered more towards foreign policy.

[gsleighter 0]

Whoops, double post!

[froggyluv 2135]

I've watched every interview she's allowed including the very Repbulican-friendly, Sean Hannity, and honestly, just am not impressed.Trust me, my girlfriend and I are 'news junkies' and literally have CNN/FOX on in the backround at all times (kinda sad really). As far as Obama, just about every debate analyzer I've seen including Fox (excluding Hannity) stated that Obama presented himeslf as knowledgable and Statesmen-like.

[scubaman3D 0]

@Scubaman -

I watched the entire interview with Palin, and it seemed she didn't know how to answer much of anything. And everybody had their hands in the subprime mortgage debacle. Everybody in Washington got warm fuzzies by creating housing opportunities for the poor. And it was private, and not subsidized, so even conservatives could get next to it.

This is everyone's fault. Every American (Myself included) contributing to the trillions of dollars of credit, auto, and mortgage debt when most of us can't afford it is at fault.

I would say based on the CNN debate, McCain has no idea how to handle an economic crisis, although held his own very well when the debate steered more towards foreign policy.

I think McCain was one of the few people calling for reform, while the Dems denied there was a problem.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

Every man is influenced by his own bias. I'm wondering how a registered Democrat will be able to rationalize away the Democrats inaction before crisis levels were reached.

And about Palin, first of all, she's running as a VP, not a president and second, I think she was visible and obviously uncomfortable during those interviews.

You are throwing away all the accomplishments she made as a politician because of a couple of video clips. It just seems shallow to me.

[echo1 0]

You are throwing away all the accomplishments she made as a politician because of a couple of video clips.  It just seems shallow to me.

What were these accomplishments?

[gsleighter 0]

You are right, McCain was calling for reform in many areas, until he got a chance to be his party's candidate for President.

As for Democrats covering up for their pet housing project in 2004, all politicians cover up their pet projects, regardless of the side of the aisle they happen to sit in. We could go all day trading stories and youtube videos about corrupt politicians, because there's inherent flaws in our political system that don't seem to be working themselves out very quickly. Unfortunately, I've only got two viable choices (On paper, anyway, you live in NY, I live in AZ, so don't feel so bad about your vote not counting), and if I spent all day poring over the horrible things that the parties are involved in, it's just a matter of picking the least worst party, which is a tough call recently.

Anyway, on Palin: If McCain's in office, she's one heartbeat away from the Presidency. McCain's old, and she's loony. If she wants to generate confidence in her ability to fulfill that role, she can't go on CBS and drop the ball like that. McCain had a number of options for his VP pick, he picked the one that generated a media frenzy and let him catch up in the polls. I'd rather see somebody like Tom Ridge next to him. As for her accomplishments, securing 20+ million in earmarks for Wasilla (Which is fine, Earmarks are great, you get federal money for projects to help communities or groups that otherwise wouldn't get them, which is what representation in government is for, but then joining the anti-earmark camp is disingenuous), never traveling outside the US, keeping 100 million of the canceled "Bridge to Nowhere" money for Alaska speak for themselves. Oh, and how's that abstinence only education thing working out for her? Oh, yeah, shotgun wedding. And she's picked over Ridge? Ridge, who would have put a much needed social moderate on the ticket.

She's about as far away from being able to adequately represent me and my values as Ann Coulter.

[scubaman3D 0]

You are throwing away all the accomplishments she made as a politician because of a couple of video clips.  It just seems shallow to me.

What were these accomplishments?

If you really want to know, search. Otherwise, don't waste my time asking questions like this, as if you are going to stump me.

@gsleighter

You're basically admitting, then, that the Democrats intentionally blocked legislation designed to avert the very crisis that we are in.

Why, then, would you have confidence in a Democrat senator involved in the creation of this problem, who personally took measures to prevent new regulation on F/F to fix the problem - especially if Democrats control the house, the senate, and the presidency and especially if F/F are paying them gobs of money?

This defies logic.

I'd rather have a "loony woman", as you say, and an old man running the country than this bunch of clowns.

I mean, for goodness sake, Franklin Raines had to leave the company amid controversy and he sat on the creation of this mess and Obama looks to him as an advisor for fixing the current situation.

Its so backwards, its incomprehensible.

[froggyluv 2135]

You are throwing away all the accomplishments she made as a politician because of a couple of video clips.  It just seems shallow to me.

Surely your not serious

Whatever great accomplishments that are evading me, this is not even the biggest concern to me. Win or lose, Obama has earned the right to run as he has passed the bar and scrutiny of his party's nomination. Like him or not, Sen.Biden has plenty of Foreign relations experience so that gives Sen. Obama a strong ear to lean on.

I think we will witness much dissent over Sen. McCain's politically-motivated pick of Gov. Palin in the weeks to come from his own party.

[scubaman3D 0]

Obama cannot say he was a governor. Palin can. But again,  you are comparing a VP and a President. Apples and Oranges.  And however limited Palin's foreign policy experience is, its still more than Obama's.

Oh, and Joe Bidden couldn't wind the presidency to save his life. He's tried and failed miserably several times. The Dem ticket is all about Obama.

Unfortunately for us, the Republican ticket has been made about Palin.

If you want a sweet-talking elitist who's unquestionably "part of the problem", then vote for Obama.  If choose not to vote for McCain, at lease have a legitimate reason why. Your reason so far has been relegated to his VP pick, not any policy that they stand for.

Seems to me this is more akin to a bias of yours, rather than policy or issues.

edit: if you will indulge me for just a little longer, I will try to explain why I back the republicans with a few simple facts.

1. Buffalo, NY (my hometown) is the #2 poorest city in America (http://publicbroadcasting.net/wned/news.newsmain?action=article&ARTICLE_ID=1139020&sectionID=1 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo,_New_York)

2. Buffalo (and NY as a whole) has been governed by an overwhelming majority of Democrats for decades. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/20/beck.cities/index.html and http://tsfiles.wordpress.com/2008....)

BUT AT THE SAME TIME:

3. Niagara and Erie county (Buffalo area) have the highest property taxes in the entire country. (http://www.wgrz.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=44611)

YET

4. Some of the lowest property values.

This all happened under the "leadership" of a super-majority (greater than 60%) Democrats.

I must stand against them, or move away.

[froggyluv 2135]

If you want a sweet-talking elitist who's unquestionably "part of the problem", then vote for Obama.  If choose not to vote for McCain, at lease have a legitimate reason why. Your reason so far has been relegated to his VP pick, not any policy that they stand for.

Seems to me this is more akin to a bias of yours, rather than policy or issues.

Well your first link took me nowhere and your second was kinda bizzare with "The Latest Liberal Caught With a Hooker +Hillary Can’t Get Her Lies Straight" as it's header and no mention of your respective town but I trust you that it is indeed unbiased reporting.

The 'Obama has no Executive experience' argument is a weak one at best. Following this logic any Freshman Governer is a better fit for Presidency than a well-established Senator. I've stated on the previous page why I don't support Bush/McCain's global policies and yes, they mean more to me than how much taxes i would pay which belive it or not will be less under Obama's plan.

I stopped supporting the National Republican party as soon as the War was declared and feel that international relations under Bush will take years to set straight. Nothing about McCain leads me to believe he will alter that course thereby he has not my support. Yes, I believe Gov. Palin is bizarre and reeks of a high-school Sophmore 's intellect and maturity level thereby she has not my respect. You obviously feel strong ties to the Republican Party so I wouldn't try to persuade you otherwise but this is a public forum so that is why I voice myself here. I'm not sure why Sen.Obama is continually called 'Elitest' because he had a good education? Used to be that was good for a Presidential resume' but seeing how politics have unfortunately turned to soundbite name-calling, is not surprising. I 'm sure with Sen.McCain's 7 houses and 13 cars he's got a closer grip on the reality of 'normal' Americans like you and I than those snobby Harvard types.

[red oct 2]

You are throwing away all the accomplishments she made as a politician because of a couple of video clips.  It just seems shallow to me.

What were these accomplishments?

she came in 3rd in the Miss Alaska pageant

and has a investigation pending in her home state that she used her position as governor to have a ex brother in law dissmissed from the police force.

yea she fits right in the current republican party.

[scubaman3D 0]

Well your first link took me nowhere and your second was kinda bizzare with "The Latest Liberal Caught With a Hooker +Hillary Can’t Get Her Lies Straight" as it's header and no mention of your respective town but I trust you that it is indeed unbiased reporting.

Working links or not, what I gave you are verifiable facts. If you really wanted to know, you could look for yourself.

Still, to the substance, you really have no reaction to the f-ed up nature of the Democrats in NY? You still haven't even commented on the youtube video of C-SPAN footage showing democrats denying the existence of any crisis in the housing market

Ok, so You're anti-war and thats your primo issue?  Reality check:  Obama will not pull all troops out of Iraq, if elected. You can take that to the bank...if any are left at that time.

You have the 'privilege' of calling yourself an independent and the right to accuse everyone else of being partisan. A friend of mine is a staunch conservative but is a registered independent. He does the same thing. His opening line in a debate is "Hey, I'm a registered independent, not a republican".

It means nothing...its bragging rights or commitment problems.

What I know, what my experience has taught me is that Dems have generally destroyed my local economy and at the national level, I look at them as responsible for the current problems by their inaction and inability to avert the crisis we are in.

Yes, they are still very much important to have around. There are some very good things about them. Also, I'm not foolish enough to think that Republicans, if left unchecked, wouldn't go corrupt, but where we are now, I simply cannot support or put confidence in failed policies at this very important stage in our country's history.

I'd just assume vote for John Madden. He probably has at least as much experience as Obama.

[froggyluv 2135]

Also, I'm not foolish enough to think that Republicans, if left unchecked, wouldn't go corrupt, but where we are now, I simply cannot support or put confidence in failed policies at this very important stage in our country's history.

Well the republican's were left unchecked intil 2 years ago and thats why we are where we are now. And yet you want to go on supporting their policies

And no, i'm not familiar with whats going on with NY Democrats and I'm sorry there screwing up your world but I talking about National/International issues. I am Independent and have voted Republican regionally but again after George W.'s, in my opinion, Criminal leadership, I am absolutely fed-up with their National Parties. Ever heard of 'Republicans for Obama'?

As far as your 'commitment' diatribe, I don't believe in blindly following a party, any party, under any circumstances, just to carry the line. That only leads to blind justice and a 'winning at all costs' mentality. Not for me.

[scubaman3D 0]

thats why we are where we are now. And yet you want to go on supporting their policies

Did you even watch the youtube video or read the reasons I gave why the Dems are responsible?

When we last discussed this topic, I thought both parties were to blame and you agreed with me. Then the more facts I gathered, it became abundantly clear that the efforts to avoid a crisis were absolutely, and undoubtedly killed by the Democrats in the Congress. I'm sorry but the facts are simply on my side with this. I know...its tough to admit you are wrong. I do not hold that against you.

Listen, I know my efforts to convince you are in vein. Even more so, since the majority of people involved with this very discussion can't vote in the US. I say we agree to disagree. Otherwise we will just end up in an endless and increasingly pointless debate on the subject.

[froggyluv 2135]

thats why we are where we are now. And yet you want to go on supporting their policies

Did you even watch the youtube video or read the reasons I gave why the Dems are responsible?

When we last discussed this topic, I thought both parties were to blame and you agreed with me. Then the more facts I gathered, it became abundantly clear that the efforts to avoid a crisis were absolutely, and undoubtedly killed by the Democrats in the Congress. I'm sorry but the facts are simply on my side with this. I know...its tough to admit you are wrong. I do not hold that against you.

Listen, I know my efforts to convince you are in vein. Even more so, since the majority of people involved with this very discussion can't vote in the US.  I say we agree to disagree. Otherwise we will just end up in an endless and increasingly pointless debate on the subject.

Well scubaman3D, I guess the majority of America that believes the Republicans are more to blame for the fiscal debacle are wrong as well

I guess you missed top Republican strategist Ed Rollins just declare on CNN that this problem is rooted at the top- the President, for failed leadership. But i'll still maintain that there is plenty of blame to go around, Republican, Democratic, and Wall Street predators. If it makes you feel better to declare you are right and I am wrong -so be it. I'll agree to just disagree with you but will maintain my staunch opposition to McCain/Palin 08'

[scubaman3D 0]

Please...

"Hey, everybody else is doing it" worked when I was 12.

And didn't you know, 99% of all the world problems rest squarely on Bush's shoulders. Pffft old.

Blaming Bush is all the rage these days.

[froggyluv 2135]

Please...

"Hey, everybody else is doing it" worked when I was 12.

And didn't you know, 99% of all the world problems rest squarely on Bush's shoulders. Pffft old.

Blaming Bush is all the rage these days.

...hence the mocking smiley...good lord

Almost all political and economic analysts agree there is blame to go around was my point. Besides, I thought we'd agree to just disagree but if you've gotta have the last word ...:)

[scubaman3D 0]

edit: oops

accidental double post...well while I'm here, sorry if I misunderstood you.

[froggyluv 2135]

2xoops

[TWCRASH 0]

People need to start caring about this country again is the problem. I may not like Obama as a candidate but if he wins he will be our president and will get my respect. Americans have lost that respect and it shows in our congress as to how they treat each other.It shows in how business treats employees and it shows in how you treat your neighbors. I wouldn't show disrespect for our country, our flag or our President no matter how he does. How do you expect other countries to respect you when you don't respect yourself? problem isn't parties because those parties represent us and if that is the case we are the problem not the other way around. People need to be held accountable for their actions and we need to own up to our own mistakes.

[chops 111]

So... these are the four most qualified people in a nation of 300 million?

I'd have thought the last eight years of ineptitude would've scared people away from folksy trinkets like Palin. "Alaska is next to Russia and Canada"...oh dear... I watch ER, so I'm a qualified doctor.

It was an interesting strategy of the Republicans to choose her, bad luck for them it seems to have back-fired.

[gsleighter 0]

Quote[/b] ]Otherwise we will just end up in an endless and increasingly pointless debate on the subject.

We're arguing with strangers on the internet, so that's a given. Still fun, and a lot more stimulating than the latest Reality TV Prime-Time cluster on Fox.

Quote[/b] ]You're basically admitting, then, that the Democrats intentionally blocked legislation designed to avert the very crisis that we are in.

I agree people in power abuse their power to be self-serving as long as they can safely do so.

Like Froggyluv said, there's a lot more difference between the two parties than their stances on the economy and social reform. That's a big one, but there's the direction we've been going the last 8 years foreign policy-wise, there's womens' rights, and public education reform (Not school vouchers, the last thing we need is massive privatization of the education system).

As for arguing over Palin making no sense, it makes a lot of sense, since she could be president in the not-too-unlikely even McCain dies of old age in office. I've said it before, she has no platform economic or domestic that I could see as representative of my values. She waxes nostalgic about "Small-town Values," an empty phrase invoking imagery of a "Better" time for America, where everybody was churchgoing, women were domestic house wives, and your race and gender determined if you could vote.

McCain picking her for VP is tantamount to saying "If I wasn't here, this woman would pick up the reins of this country. And you know what? She'd do a great job. She's got a set of values I can get next to, and I'd say America's in good hands." He's endorsing her, in a way, for president. Any man who'd endorse Sarah Palin for president is not a man I want in the position of leader of the free world.

[gsleighter 0]

Here's some more information for the argument that there's not a single party that's to blame for the current crisis.

Finfacts, Ireland's top business website, with an article on the global implications of the US market crisis.

http://www.finfacts.com/ireland....9.shtml

Fun Excerpt:

"Meanwhile, the top US investment bank Goldman Sachs has been on a roll as rivals such as Merrill Lynch have been mired in the subprime fallout. The funny thing is that when Paulson headed Goldman Sachs, until the summer of 2006, the bank was as active in the packaging/securitization of subprime debt as its rivals."

Further, Bush, McCain, and Paulson all flat-out ignored the looming crisis this entire year. I believe it was two weeks ago McCain stated the economy was sound, and then three hours later stated we were in a crisis.

Point is, these people are not the entire republican party. They're people in power profiting from a poor banking practice of lending to people who can't afford it, which has it's roots in the 1970's. A problem this big is decades in the making, and there's decisions from both sides of the aisle that ultimately led us to where we are today.

Further, here's some more Palin info, from Fareed Zakaria, foreign affairs analyst who hosts "Fareed Zakaria: GPS" on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2008....ex.html

Fun Quote from the Couric interview:

"Katie Couric: Why isn't it better, Gov. Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families who are struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries; allow them to spend more and put more money into the economy instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?

Gov. Sarah Palin: That's why I say I, like every American I'm speaking with, we're ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health-care reform that is needed to help shore up our economy, helping the -- it's got to be all about job creation, too, shoring up our economy and putting it back on the right track. So health-care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions and tax relief for Americans. And trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, scary thing. But one in five jobs being created in the trade sector today, we've got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that."

May I say: "What did she just try to say?"

[TWCRASH 0]

So... these are the four most qualified people in a nation of 300 million?

I'd have thought the last eight years of ineptitude would've scared people away from folksy trinkets like Palin. "Alaska is next to Russia and Canada"...oh dear... I watch ER, so I'm a qualified doctor.

It was an interesting strategy of the Republicans to choose her, bad luck for them it seems to have back-fired.

No it means that we have a nation of whining, non working, i want everything and want it for free and dont want to work for it and you wonder why we have corrupt politicians? first off if everyone was so tired of it and not lazy we could vote them out easily but we cant even break 50% voting . This is why we have Mayors who get reelected after smoking crack with hookers.

[TWCRASH 0]

So... these are the four most qualified people in a nation of 300 million?

I'd have thought the last eight years of ineptitude would've scared people away from folksy trinkets like Palin. "Alaska is next to Russia and Canada"...oh dear... I watch ER, so I'm a qualified doctor.

It was an interesting strategy of the Republicans to choose her, bad luck for them it seems to have back-fired.

in all fairness I think she meant that she is as qualified as Barack since he has ZERO foreign affairs experience and she was simply saying she is more qualified because at least she has a foreign country butted up against her state. If you paid attention you would have gotten the jist of it. Also if you wanna quote, what about Obama stating the obvious that there he has toured 54 of the 57 states (or something to that effect) or Dems trying to compare him to Jesus Christ (Also so you know Christ wasnt a community organizer) Or Obama declaring HE is what this country has been waiting for? I think any sound bite you pull could just as easily be misinterpreted or you can read into