USA Politics Thread - *No gun debate*

[Necromancer- 0]

The problem is that some people cannot see the grey area between black and white.

Of course torture is something awfull and de-humanising, but I find it at times to be necessary to do so if there are no acceptable alternatives to get information out of a person.

In a crisis/war bad things happen and sometimes bad things need to be done.

[Akira 0]

The problem is that some people cannot see the grey area between black and white.

Of course torture is something awfull and de-humanising, but I find it at times to be necessary to do so if there are no acceptable alternatives to get information out of a person.

In a crisis/war bad things happen and sometimes bad things need to be done.

I thought we were suppose to be the "good" guys?

"Acceptable alternatives"?

Using war as an excuse to engage in illegal activities is neither "right" nor acceptable from the basis of what this country is suppose to stand for.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course torture is something awfull and de-humanising, but I find it at times to be necessary to do so if there are no acceptable alternatives to get information out of a person.

One moment please.

We´re not talking about proven guilty terrorists that are/were exposed to US torture but suspects. A lot of that suspects have already been released as they simply did nothing wrong, so even torture did not make them guilty. It has been preemptive torture at best. Apart from that what do you get by torturing ? Do you actually believe that you will get a lot of substantial intel with torture ? If you do it widespread, maybe, but most of the US prisoners at Gitmo were not affiliated with AQ nor did they have anything to tell as they didn´t know anything. Still, they were preemptively tortured.

If there is anything that a government should do, it´s to set up strict rules and enforce them. Bush and his gang created the grey areas and we know about the results already. it goes down to the lowest rank with a policy like this as everyone still can claim:

"Uhm, I thought it´s ok to do this and that, as my boss, the president, told me that it´s not really wrong if the purpose is right."

Sorry, but the line has to be drawn somewhere and overriding a congressional decision and reinstalling torture in the shadows is nothing a government anywhere should be allowed to do as it is acting against the democratic will and the legal boundaries even they have to move within.

There is no "little-torture". It´s either the USA is a country where torture is legal or it´s illegal. There is no grey area. At least there shouldn´t be one. The directives are dead-end clear and searching for a workaround is nothing but illegal.

[Necromancer- 0]

I completely understand your reasons to disagree. However a suspect is proven guilty when he/she has been processed in court. That takes in my opinion too much time.

[Akira 0]

I completely understand your reasons to disagree. However a suspect is proven guilty when he/she has been processed in court. That takes in my opinion too much time.

So due process, a founding principle of this nation and one reason it was formed in the first place, take too much time for you?

So then what is the point of fighting to save this country, as certain right-wing elements have portrayed the "War on Terror"?

So you condone the kidnapping, torture, and imprisonment of completely innocent people simply because it takes "too much time" to prove they are guilty (or that they are even who the kidnappers think they are)?

Probably one of the most disgusting comments I've ever read and another clear sign that the US is in its death throws.

And the terrorists haven't won right?

[walker 0]

Hi all

Ann Coulter has been at the "Whacky Baccy" I think; her latest words of wisdom: all Americans should be christans no other religions or beliefs no agnostics, no atheists just christans, are from some one who is off to la la land.

As to Jews she singles them out for sepcial treatment; she wants them to be "perfected"

Quote[/b] ]Coulter: We Want Jews To Be "Perfected"

Conservative Commentator Says An All-Christian America Would Be Better

CBS

Ann Coulter is stirring up controversy again.

The conservative commentator said this week that the nation would be better off if all Americans were Christian and that she wants "Jews to be perfected, as they say."

Appearing on the CNBC show The Big Idea, Coulter was asked to give her version of a better America. She told the show's host, Donny Deutsch, that it would look like New York City during the 2004 Republican National Convention....

As always Follow link for full story

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories....p_story

Quote[/b] ]...When Coulter tried to shift the conversation to the diverse congregations in Christian megachurches, the show's host brought the topic back to Coulter's statements about Jews.

Media Matters, the liberal media watchdog group which is publicizing the encounter, provided this transcript:

DEUTSCH: ... we should just throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians, then, or ...

COULTER: Yeah.

DEUTSCH: Really?

COULTER: Well, it's a lot easier. It's kind of a fast track.

DEUTSCH: Really?

COULTER: Yeah. You have to obey.

DEUTSCH: You can't possibly believe that.

COULTER: Yes.

"We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say," Coulter said later in the show. "That is what Christianity is. We believe the Old Testament, but ours is more like Federal Express."

"Candidly, I had her on not to talk about politics but to talk about her brand strategy," Deutsch later told AdWeek . "Whether you like her or not, her strategy is to be extreme and that's a way to make money. But because it's her, it drifted into politics." ...

Ibid

Nuff said

Kind Regards walker

[Necromancer- 0]

I completely understand your reasons to disagree. However a suspect is proven guilty when he/she has been processed in court. That takes in my opinion too much time.

So due process, a founding principle of this nation and one reason it was formed in the first place, take too much time for you?

Yes... If the evidence found are strong enough to prove guilty.

Quote[/b] ]So then what is the point of fighting to save this country, as certain right-wing elements have portrayed the "War on Terror"?

Survival with near zero casualties. After that situation normal and we can all go back to "sleep" and dream about our fortunes etc etc etc..

Besides.. If your US Government decides not to lift up the "marshall"like law after the "war on terror". You still have millions of gun owners that can start their own militia to overthrown the corrupt government... We Europeans dont.

Quote[/b] ]So you condone the kidnapping, torture, and imprisonment of completely innocent people simply because it takes "too much time" to prove they are guilty (or that they are even who the kidnappers think they are)?

I do not condone such acts completely innocent people. As I said, evidence must be gathered before conducting harsh interrogation techniques.

Example:

C4 explosives with fingerprints of suspect were found after arrest. The lead to arrest this person is because his telephone/email was tapped by intelligence services. It took at least 6 months to prosecute this person. Why not within a day or even less, because the evidence is so clear?

..

In my opinion.. THAT takes too long to proof someone guilty. That time is far enough for "terrorist" organisations to re-organise.

Quote[/b] ]And the terrorists haven't won right?

No.. they haven't..

Why?

Well.. I still have the right of free speech and my other liberties are not invoked...

well at least not yet.  

[theavonlady 2]

Nuff said

Other than her outburst of what amounts to standard Christian replacement theology, what is so exciting about this?

[Sophion-Black 0]

That's entertaining. sure made me laugh... "perfected." She must have wanted to be in the wrong club when she was young. Here in America we have the Mickey Mouse Club... someone shouldve told her that instead of her trying to be in the Hitler youth.

Anyways, has anyone heard of this yet?

Quote[/b] ]Rice: Now Is Time for Palestinian State

Oct 15, 12:17 PM EDT

By MOHAMMED DARAGHMEH - Associated Press Writer

RAMALLAH, West Bank (AP) -- The time has come for establishing a Palestinian state and it's in the interest of the U.S. to do so, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Monday in one of her most forceful statements yet on the issue.

The comments from Rice, after a meeting with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas, suggested that the Bush administration is determined to try to bridge the wide gaps between Israel and the Palestinians ahead of a U.S.-hosted Mideast conference.

The gathering is expected to take place next month, though a date has not been announced. Moderate Arab countries, whose participation is widely viewed as critical, have not committed to attending.

Standing next to Abbas, Rice defined Palestinian statehood as a U.S. interest.

"Frankly, it's time for the establishment of a Palestinian state," Rice said.

"I wanted to say in my own voice to be able to say to as many people as possible that the United States sees the establishment of a Palestinian state and a two-state solution as absolutely essential for the future, not just of Palestinians and Israelis but also for the Middle East and indeed to American interests," she said. "That's really a message that I think only I can deliver."

Tensions arose Sunday when Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told his Cabinet that he did not regard a joint declaration of principles for a future peace deal to be a prerequisite for the conference. The Palestinians said that without such a document, they would not attend.

Rice did not say whether she wants the document completed before the conference, set in Annapolis, Md. However, the U.S. has said it wants a substantive working paper dealing with all the key disputes before the start of the conference. The issues include borders, Jerusalem, Israeli settlements and Palestinian refugees.

"We frankly have better things to do than invite people to Annapolis for a photo op," she said.

She said ending the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a top priority of the Bush administration.

Rice praised Israel and Palestinians for making their "most serious effort" in years to end the conflict. Olmert and Abbas have held a series of meetings in recent months, and the two sides have appointed negotiating teams to hammer out their joint vision for peace in time for the gathering.

Abbas said he expects the conference to launch Israeli-Palestinian peace talks, and that a deadline should be set for completion. However, Israel rejects a timetable and U.S. officials have been cool to the idea.

The Palestinian president said he also asked for U.S. help in halting Israeli settlement expansion and the ongoing construction of Israel's West Bank separation barrier.

The Palestinians have protested recent Israeli land expropriations for a West Bank road project. They fear the land seizures are meant to tighten Israeli control over strategic West Bank areas near Jerusalem that they claim.

Addressing such concerns, Rice said: "I have said we need to at this particular point in time be certain to avoid any steps that would undermine confidence because the building of confidence is something that takes time."

Rice is on a four-day shuttle mission, trying to create common ground ahead of the Mideast meeting. A State Department official hinted on Sunday that the conference might be postponed. However, Abbas aides suggested Monday that the gathering would at most be rescheduled for early December.

Abbas and Rice met for 3 1/2 hours Monday at his headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah. Her trip was briefly delayed by what turned out to be a false security alert. Her convoy stopped at an Israeli fire station after Israeli police said they spotted a suspicious vehicle near a crossing point into the West Bank. The convoy moved on after 15 minutes.

On Sunday, Rice held a first round of talks with Israeli leaders.

Just great. Yeah its good to look like we're doing something to help the middle east. But in reality we're just trying to officially divide Israel. I don't get it. Palestine? Philistines? whats the difference? This is pulling way back but didn't they originate from Jacob, ruled by Saul who was then killed by David in a civil war then he was succeeded by his son Solomon? If that's true that would put Palestine rightfully under Israel's control. But then again according to the same document Israel is just plain doomed until further notice so it doesn't really matter.

But regardless, in my eyes: Palestine is part of Israel. Its been that way since basically the dawn of time. So Leave it alone, it will correct itself in time to come... indefinitely (again using the same document)!

oh BTW, I'm back... sure seems weird to be though

[Akira 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes... If the evidence found are strong enough to prove guilty.

But thats the point isn't it? Many of the people imprisoned in Guantanamo or picked up by the US's "Rendition" flights aren't guilty. Sometimes they nab the wrong person...sometimes the person is just at the wrong place at the wrong time. Look up the number of prisoners released without charges...look up the case that was just refused to be taken up by the Supreme Court because of the erroneous defense of "national security."

There is no proof, and yet this person is still kidnapped, detained, and tortured.

Quote[/b] ]Survival with near zero casualties. After that situation normal and we can all go back to "sleep" and dream about our fortunes etc etc etc..

But as I said. Whats the point if we no longer even have the basic right of "due process" anymore?

Quote[/b] ]Besides.. If your US Government decides not to lift up the "marshall"like law after the "war on terror". You still have millions of gun owners that can start their own militia to overthrown the corrupt government... We Europeans dont.

Hard to center a revolution around groups that are for the most part considered nut jobs. Besides...you would have to get the basic fat lazy American from in front of "Survivor". Good luck on that.

Quote[/b] ]I do not condone such acts completely innocent people. As I said, evidence must be gathered before conducting harsh interrogation techniques.

Again...that is the point. They don't, or they gather erroneous information leading to the detention (and subsequent torture) of the wrong person (ie innoncent).

Quote[/b] ]Example:

C4 explosives with fingerprints of suspect were found after arrest. The lead to arrest this person is because his telephone/email was tapped by intelligence services. It took at least 6 months to prosecute this person. Why not within a day or even less, because the evidence is so clear?

..

In my opinion.. THAT takes too long to proof someone guilty. That time is far enough for "terrorist" organisations to re-organise.

Because a central principle of a free nation is that the accused has a right to a defense.

Look at how many non-terrorist cases have been overturned because a completely innocent person was charged with a crime. And that is WITH due process. Now extrapolate that rate out to where security forces are rushed to stop an alleged terrorist. You don't think error will creep in?

But cases like your example hardly ever come around (where evidence is so overwhelmeing for example).

Quote[/b] ]No.. they haven't..

Why?

Well.. I still have the right of free speech and my other liberties are not invoked...

well at least not yet.

They won the day the Patriot Act was enacted. They won the day I had to take my shoes off at the airport. They won the day when dissent against the administration suddenly became traitorous or un-American.

You may have your freedom of speech, but in the United States the Bush Administration has effectively ended 200 years of freedom of speech. Dissent is shouted down. Papers are considered giving "aid and comfort to the enemy" when they print truthes about the corruption and illegality of certain administration policies. I could go on but I'm sure you know...

[Necromancer- 0]

Akira:

If that is the case.. I believe that patriot act will not stay in force forever. Some day it will be lifted up.

[klavan 0]

Akira:

If that is the case.. I believe that patriot act will not stay in force forever. Some day it will be lifted up.

I really hope you're right.....

Klavan

[Commando84 0]

yeah i wanna go to usa some day without getting shot down, though im blonde haired but still...

[-Snafu- 77]

BUMP.

To go away from the usual Middle East or gun control debates I would like to hear from someone in the US about support for Southern Independence. I came across a few videos supporting it on YouTube* while looking for videos on Scottish Independence.

Is the idea of a return of the Confederate States an issue in the US at the moment? (I would guess no).

How much support for this in states that were in the CSA?

Is there any political support for this?

If any people support a return of the Confederacy are they your 'average American' or nut jobs?

One of the Southern Independence videos I saw. Link.

* I am aware that YouTube is not a great source and seems to be full of idiots.

[baddo 0]

Well that would be interesting to see.

South Carolina breaking out of the Union.

Could it be legally possible inside the United States? To non-violently separate a member state from the rest of the USA into an independent country. If like 90 % of the people in one state want it, could they do it legally? I'm no expert of the U.S. law so I really don't know.

I'm not seeing it happening though. Just thinking if it is possible within the current U.S. legislation.

[billybob2002 0]

Well that would be interesting to see.

South Carolina breaking out of the Union.

Could it be legally possible inside the United States? To non-violently separate a member state from the rest of the USA into an independent country. If like 90 % of the people in one state want it, could they do it legally? I'm no expert of the U.S. law so I really don't know.

I'm not seeing it happening though. Just thinking if it is possible within the current U.S. legislation.

According to Texas v. White, secession is illegal under the United States Constitution. I believe a part of a state can secede to another state through legal channels.

Those people who are pushing for "Southern independence" are usually neo-Confederates. Kind of funny that they are mocking the Patriot Act because their "mythical" CSA used a passport system for travel within the Confederate states. Civil liberties were basically a foreign concept in the CSA.

[Sennacherib 0]

instead of an utopia to create a southern state,

They should let the cherokees reclaim the land of their ancestors

nowhere in this "usa politics thread", the native americans are mentioned. (i have maybe missed some replies)

[General Barron 0]

Could it be legally possible inside the United States? To non-violently separate a member state from the rest of the USA into an independent country. If like 90 % of the people in one state want it, could they do it legally?

Umm... no, obviously not. Like all governments, the US government don't allow succession. That's what the American Civil War was about. Some million people died trying to sort this one out.

I'm sure the confederates thought they had the legal right to succeed, and maybe they did; but of course all laws are enforced with a gun one way or the other.

I wonder, has there ever been a case where a territory non-violently succeeds from a nation? Without intervention or pressure from other countries or groups like the UN, I mean.

[MehMan 0]

I wonder, has there ever been a case where a territory non-violently succeeds from a nation? Without intervention or pressure from other countries or groups like the UN, I mean.

Well, depends on how you look at it. After WWI Austro-Hungary fell apart and that lead to the creation of the first Yugoslavia(well, not named like that, renamed it myself for convinence) and Hungary.

[baddo 0]

Alright, so it is not possible for a U.S. state to separate from the Union without using violence. Unless both sides agree on the matter, that is.

It is the answer I was expecting to hear.

The European Union is in this regard a much looser union.

[Baff1 0]

But regardless, in my eyes: Palestine is part of Israel. Its been that way since basically the dawn of time.

Isreal didn't exist 60 years ago, let alone at the dawn of time.

Formerly that area was known as "Palestine".

[Baff1 0]

I wonder, has there ever been a case where a territory non-violently succeeds from a nation? Without intervention or pressure from other countries or groups like the UN, I mean.

India. (Watch the movie called "Ghandi").

Canada.

Australia.

New Zealand.

Hong Kong.

I'm sure there are many more examples.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'm sure there are many more examples.

I´ve seen an interesting documentary lately that showed an old couple that actually managed to get their land separated from australia and now they have their own currency, poststamps, law, etc. They are running a souvereign country within Australias borders. The story was funny as the old man officially declared war on australia and handed his declaration to the australian government. They didn´t take him serious, but he used a loophole in the australian constitution that states that if the country does not win the war within a certain time the land is free to go. They all laughed at him when he declared war and did nothing relying on courts decisions. In the end it was ruled that australia has "lost" the war and the country was separated from australia. The government was in shock but the old man actually was right and had the smartest tactics that finally suceeded. Now tourists go there to visit them and buy some souvenirs. Apart from that a lot of companies have their residence there (mailboxes) because of the cheap taxes for them. Quite some smart old man, isn´t he ?

If anyone here knows the name of the country let us know. I don´t remember the name. This story is actually true.

Edit:

Found it. It ´s the nation of "Hutt River"

Check out their history, it´s quite entertaining

Hutt-River homepage

Here´s a picture of Prince Leonard, the founder of the kingdom or province :

The even have their own national anthem

[-Snafu- 77]

If you Google 'Principality of Sealand' you will get something similar to that.

EDIT:

Found it.

PoS Website

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Good find Balschoiw!

Very interesting read.  

I won't go into great detail, but there has been a large increase in people trying to use loopholes in laws and state constitutions here in the US.

It used to be mostly tax protesters and scam artists, claiming things like the state they reside in is the "state of man."  

But now, in my state at least, criminal enterprises and street gangs are becoming incresingly adept.  Not sure why.  Maybe its the proliferation of info on the internet, maybe its the growing and increasingly ineffective government bureaucracy.