Theo van Gogh murdered

[Postduifje 0]

De Telegraaf is a tabloid, spreading rumours and known fiction in glamourstyle writing. The problem is it has the sizes of a regular paper and many people take the stories in it asif it was objective news. There are statistics somewhere (a shame I can't find them now) that keep track of how many times de Telegraaf have claimed the same famous people to be deceased, pregnant, maried, divorced or involved in criminal activities

[Supah 0]

De Telegraaf is a tabloid, spreading rumours and known fiction in glamourstyle writing. The problem is it has the sizes of a regular paper and many people take the stories in it asif it was objective news. There are statistics somewhere (a shame I can't find them now) that keep track of how many times de Telegraaf have claimed the same famous people to be deceased, pregnant, maried, divorced or involved in criminal activities

I remember a while back the Volkskrant did a hilarious story about the Telegraaf and its uses of the word terror. This year their use of the word terror is up 80% and ranges from "Marrocan terror" through "Geriatric Terror" down to "Dog shit Terror"   But I fear this is a bit off topic, media influence on a situation like this

[JdB 151]

Or maybe it is better to just avoid those parts of the city

Or just kick people that cause those problems and hold entire neighborhoods hostage out of the country?

If we just ignore those parts of our own country, we might as well give them them a piece of Holland so they can live in their own country...

@Supah: Oh, so when you are just walking down a street totally ignoring people around you, not looking them in the eye, it is normal for them to come after you and scream at you ''hey bitch do you want to die''. Obviously I just ignore people like that, and continue walking.

Strange way of living they have in Friesland...

The above happened more then once to me in Breda. No problem though when you are walking with a group, they only do something like that when they have a more then 3 to 1 advantage.

And no, I don't have a bald head, nazi tatoos on my body or go around screaming far right lines in the middle of the street. I'm just an average Dutchman.

[Ironsight 1]

The above happened more then once to me in Breda. No problem though when you are walking with a group, they only do something like that when they have a more then 3 to 1 advantage.

Welcome to my world (Breda)

Quote[/b] ]Strange way of living they have in Friesland...

Friesland is a totally different part of the country and I don't think they know about the big problems in the bigger cities.

[Postduifje 0]

Or just kick people that cause those problems and hold entire neighborhoods hostage out of the country?

What about people that were born here? What about average Dutchmen, just like you? There are a lot of people doing bad things, and suprisingly not all of them are immigrated once in their lives. So if born and raised dutch people, living here for many generations since our lands were dried from the sea, do something wrong, we'll kick them out of the country?

[JdB 151]

So if born and raised dutch people, living here or many generations since our lands were dried from the sea, do something wrong, we'll kick them out of the country?

Crime figures among native Dutchmen are far lower. I have family who work for the police, and they tell me about 85% of the people they arrest are people with foreign looks (don't know of a nicer way to put it...).

*Waits for the first person to call the police racists who only go after foreigners*

[Postduifje 0]

So... after the capture of a criminal, they judge if they are foreign. If so; out of the country they go, if not we'll follow the normal lawprocedure. Sure, that'll make a nice and equal society with people living in harmony

[Postduifje 0]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people, why don't we kick them out?

[Ironsight 1]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people, why don't we kick them out?

Because they are Dutchmen who have more right on living here, it's as simple as that (don't want to sound like a rascist).

Also if Dutch Marroccans would live in Marrocco they would never steel something, unless they want to spend half of your life in a dirty prison cell with 5 other guys.

So why can't they respect the law like they do in their own country, maybe we should lock people up for years when they steal something.

[JdB 151]

So... after the capture of a criminal, they judge if they are foreign. If so; out of the country they go, if not we'll follow the normal lawprocedure.

No, not immediatly of course. With crimes like murder or rape, prison and after that send them back to their country. For lesser crimes, a point system (sounds weird but anyway). Out of points? Then out of the country.

Will this solve all problems? Of course not, but it is a fact that crimes have gone up the last 50 years. So what has changed in those 50 years? Well, obviously not all is too blame on foreigners entering Holland, because we are unfortunatly more then capable to commit violent crimes as well, but the number of those crimes has greatly increased since the Dutch goverment allowed alot of foreign workers to come work here in the 1960's.

Nothing to do with my feelings about foreigners, just facts.

[Supah 0]

@Supah: Oh, so when you are just walking down a street totally ignoring people around you, not looking them in the eye, it is normal for them to come after you and scream at you ''hey bitch do you want to die''. Obviously I just ignore people like that, and continue walking.

Strange way of living they have in Friesland...

The above happened more then once to me in Breda. No problem though when you are walking with a group, they only do something like that when they have a more then 3 to 1 advantage.

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people, why don't we kick them out?

Because they are Dutchmen who have more right on living here, it's as simple as that (don't want to sound like a rascist).

If you don't want to sound like a rascist I suggest you try A LOT harder then that. People like Mohammed B. are as much a dutch citizen as you, he was born and raised here and has ALL the rights you have. You have no more right to live here then he does. What you said there is bordering on rascisme.

And no, I don't have a bald head, nazi tatoos on my body or go around screaming far right lines in the middle of the street. I'm just an average Dutchman.

Never happened to me and I am around some of the worst neighbourhoods in Leeuwarden, known for its problems with marrocan youth, a lot because friends of mine work there (police, firemen) or live there. People get in to one spot of trouble and over exaggerate it. I have had loads of trouble with non muslim "white" dutchmen, also mostly when you are alone. Who on earth picks a fight he knows he can't win? I have seen loads of problems caused by homeless drug addicts, pimps and whores, white trash and skinheads. There are certain neighbourhoods in leeuwarden largely populated by non-muslim white people where I wouldn't go without a police escort.

Talk about my way of living in friesland? Let me tell you this. For years we here have been told we are backwards and how "advanced" the west and south are. Ever been to "Oud Noord" in Rotterdam? Want to call that progress? Most Frisians I know aren't commenting like a bunch of brainless morons about Theo van Gogh without reading other then his columns in that crappy newspaper metro (it isn't free for nothing). They have read his other works, they know the sort of rhetoric he used, how he used insults as a way of compensating for lack of talent.

Most Frisians I know are pragmatic about this, aren't allowing to let themselves be carried away by hate, see through the "Shocked" trend ... being shocked doesn't dissolve you from thought like most politicians try and make it come across. If you sling mud like Theo did you may get splattered by it yourself.

You want to insinuate cowardice? I'll show you cowardice. Dispensing with empathy by falling in to a  us and them trend of thought, that's cowardice. Saying Theo had the right to call muslims "goatfuckers" but complaining when a mullah says all dutch women are whores, that's cowardice. Making assumptions about the whole of dutch muslim society based on the actions of a few, that's cowardice. Hating people who you have never met, have never done you wrong and whom you don't even know, that's cowardice. Complaining about how your freedom of speech is being stolen but when someone is critical of Theo and says play with fire you get burned and then telling him to shut up, that's cowardice. Want to be a hero? Stand up to a person who goes "bitch do you want to die?", that would make you a hero in my book.  Don't go "he was a muslim ergo all muslims are bad" on an internet discussion board afterwards or draw generalisations about people based on your limited and most likely non representative experiences.

I am getting very tired of a lot of my countrymen with their uninformed, unintelligent muslim bashing. I sincerely hope that one day the shoe will be on the other foot and that they will learn how it feels to be treated and portrayed as a terrorist or coming from a inferior/backwards culture before you have done anything. Unilateral action forcing people to do things by our government will never work. The only way to peace is through understanding. This current blind hatred for muslims, because you are not telling me that every one is making the distinction between extremist muslim vs normal muslim, will only lead to more trouble.

Quote[/b] ]Will this solve all problems? Of course not, but it is a fact that crimes have gone up the last 50 years. So what has changed in those 50 years? Well, obviously not all is too blame on foreigners entering Holland, because we are unfortunatly more then capable to commit violent crimes as well, but the number of those crimes has greatly increased since the Dutch goverment allowed alot of foreign workers to come work here in the 1960's.

Nothing to do with my feelings about foreigners, just facts.

How about you post a link to those statistics then? I'd like to see it. Or did you just make those up ?

[Postduifje 0]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people,  why don't we kick them out?

Because they are Dutchmen who have more right on living here, it's as simple as that (don't want to sound like a rascist).

The suspected murderer of van Gogh was a dutchman too, so he can stay according to your logics.

[Ironsight 1]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people, why don't we kick them out?

Because they are Dutchmen who have more right on living here, it's as simple as that (don't want to sound like a rascist).

The suspected murderer of van Gogh was a dutchman too, so he can stay according to your logics.

I think you know wat I mean

EDIT:

I think the government had to be a lot clearer at the time when foreign workers all came to the Netherlands. Why do they need to stay here after their contract is over? Why not return to their own country? They even get their WAO and WW when they return to their country of orgin.....

That's just my point of view.

[Supah 0]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people,  why don't we kick them out?

Because they are Dutchmen who have more right on living here, it's as simple as that (don't want to sound like a rascist).

Also if Dutch Marroccans would live in Marrocco they would never steel something, unless they want to spend half of your life in a dirty prison cell with 5 other guys.

So why can't they respect the law like they do in their own country, maybe we should lock people up for years when they steal something.  

If you dont want to sound like a rascist I suggest you try A LOT harder then that. Mohammed B. is as much a dutch citizen as you are and has as much rights as you do. He has every right to live here.

[JdB 151]

For years we here have been told we are backwards and how "advanced" the west and south are. Ever been to "Oud Noord" in Rotterdam? Want to call that progress?

The only way to peace is through understanding. This current blind hatred for muslims, because you are not telling me that every one is making the distinction between extremist muslim vs normal muslim, will only lead to more trouble.

Yes, I know, I've been to Leeuwarden (couple of years ago, before the whole anti-islam mood), and I liked it better then Rotterdam (where there are is a considerable amount of junkies on the street bothering/robbing people).

Well, I do agree with parts of your story like that what van Gogh said wasn't very smart. I wasn't exactly a fan of his work, and I think people are exagerating by broadcasting his cremation live on tv.

What great thing has he done for Holland?

Only people that do something great in terms of science, culture (or mutual understanding), politics or peace deserve something like that.

[Postduifje 0]

So... after the capture of a criminal, they judge if they are foreign. If so; out of the country they go, if not we'll follow the normal lawprocedure.

No, not immediatly of course. With crimes like murder or rape, prison and after that send them back to their country. For lesser crimes, a point system (sounds weird but anyway). Out of points? Then out of the country.

You are raping democracy with that post of yours. We are living in a state that is controlled by laws, it is both morally as legally wrong to make the distinction between foreigners and dutch people in determaining the punishments for the same crime. If dutch person commits a crime, he/she gets locked away for a while, if a foreigner does the same, he/she gets kick out of the county forgood? This is racism at it's top!

[Postduifje 0]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people,  why don't we kick them out?

Because they are Dutchmen who have more right on living here, it's as simple as that (don't want to sound like a rascist).

The suspected murderer of van Gogh was a dutchman too, so he can stay according to your logics.

I think you know wat I mean  

No, I don't actually. He was a dutchman in all ways. Born here (he was, wasn't he?) and raised here and he has a dutch passport. When granted that, he has just as much "right" to live here as you do.

[xawery 0]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people,  why don't we kick them out?

Actually, I'd be in favour of that... *slap*

Anyway, it's funny how apparantly people assume that one has to look like a neo-nazi to hold views that are deemed far-right. Or that what one says isn't racist because one says it isn't.

Do you people even comprehend the meaning of 'rechtstaat'? Do you have the slightest inkling of what you are proposing, what implications that would have? Perhaps you haven't checked the Dutch law lately, but it's not your ethnicity that decides whether you are a Dutchman or not, it's whether you have the Dutch nationality (not very surprising). Once someone has a Dutch passport, he is as Dutch as you are. There is no question of having 'more rights'. By your reasoning, one could say that Patrick Kluivert should not be in the team representing the Netherlands in the World Cup, because, well, he's a bit foreign looking isn't he?

I'm Polish by origin. I have the Dutch nationality. Let's say Lt Hunter and I murder a poor ol' granny. He would get 20 years, I would get kicked out of country (let's disregard for a minute the fact that it's not clear where, or even whether, I would have to endure my punishment). By doing so, you are assuming that my ethnic background is connected to me committing this crime. After all, apart from that there are no differences between me and Lt Hunter in that example, right?

And that, my friend, is RACISM.

Or perhaps you'd like to say that this wouldn't apply to me, because you mean dark-skinned people when you speak of 'foreigners'? I've heard that in a discussion once or twice.

[Ironsight 1]

And also: the crime rates among lower educated people are far higher than higher educated people, why don't we kick them out?

Because they are Dutchmen who have more right on living here, it's as simple as that (don't want to sound like a rascist).

The suspected murderer of van Gogh was a dutchman too, so he can stay according to your logics.

I think you know wat I mean

No, I don't actually. He was a dutchman in all ways. Born here (he was, wasn't he?) and raised here and he has a dutch passport. When granted that, he has just as much "right" to live here as you do.

Look at the edited post:

Quote[/b] ]I think the government had to be a lot clearer at the time when foreign workers all came to the Netherlands. Why do they need to stay here after their contract is over? Why not return to their own country? They even get their WAO and WW when they return to their country of orgin.....

That's just my point of view.

So I think the the only real blame of the problems we are dealing now with should be on the government that time.

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Will this solve all problems? Of course not, but it is a fact that crimes have gone up the last 50 years. So what has changed in those 50 years? Well, obviously not all is too blame on foreigners entering Holland, because we are unfortunatly more then capable to commit violent crimes as well, but the number of those crimes has greatly increased since the Dutch goverment allowed alot of foreign workers to come work here in the 1960's.

Nothing to do with my feelings about foreigners, just facts.

How about you post a link to those statistics then? I'd like to see it. Or did you just make those up ?

In case you didn't notice, crime rates have been getting up everywhere in the west in the last 50 years. Even ours rose just like yours even though Finland had no significant immigrant population until 90s.

Urbanization seems more likely cause.

[xawery 0]

In case you didn't notice, crime rates have been getting up everywhere in the west in the last 50 years. Even ours rose just like yours even though Finland had no significant immigrant population until 90s.

Urbanization seems more likely cause.

Indeed, what I think Supah meant was the implict correlation between more immigrants and crime.

[Supah 0]

Quote[/b] ]Will this solve all problems? Of course not, but it is a fact that crimes have gone up the last 50 years. So what has changed in those 50 years? Well, obviously not all is too blame on foreigners entering Holland, because we are unfortunatly more then capable to commit violent crimes as well, but the number of those crimes has greatly increased since the Dutch goverment allowed alot of foreign workers to come work here in the 1960's.

Nothing to do with my feelings about foreigners, just facts.

How about you post a link to those statistics then? I'd like to see it. Or did you just make those up ?

In case you didn't notice, crime rates have been getting up everywhere in the west in the last 50 years. Even ours rose just like yours even though Finland had no significant immigrant population until 90s.

Urbanization seems more likely cause.

yes hence my call for him posting the source of his claim that the rise in crime is from immigrant workers. I'd still like to see those statistics. I think he is just making them up to fit his views about "foreigners".

[EiZei 0]

In case you didn't notice, crime rates have been getting up everywhere in the west in the last 50 years. Even ours rose just like yours even though Finland had no significant immigrant population until 90s.

Urbanization seems more likely cause.

Indeed, what I think Supah meant was the implict correlation between more immigrants and crime.

I was actually replying to hunters post, just forgot to remove that one bit.

[Frisbee 0]

I don't agree on avoiding those parts of a city... thats just what those people want you to do. It makes them feel they can do everything what they want there.

I can't do anything to counter the people in those area's, if I go there I just take a gamble to get mugged. Will it solve anything? No. I don't see how me possible endangering myself will do anything.

Besides, I really have no reason to go there for, no shops, nowhere near my school, and I don't know any people there.

Oh and btw, two out of the four times that insults were hurled at me on the street they were "Belgian", just white trash/skinheads. Once in Mechelen, and once when I was on a school trip in the Ardennes. The two other times it were the Morrocan "gangs" people can go on about.

People like this exist on both sides of the spectrum, I don't avoid a neighbourhood because it has immigrants in it, I avoid an area because it might expose me to unecessary risks.

You don't prove points by getting your arse kicked.

Also, I am half Thai so in essence I'm no pure Belgian myself, what'd be the law system for people like me?

[xawery 0]

Also, I am half Thai so in essence I'm no pure Belgian myself, what'd be the law system for people like me?

I dunno, can you mention some Thai religious symbols? I bet someone will be more than willing to make a nice emblem of it, for you to wear on your jacket...

Seriously people, this is ridiculous. In essence we're all opposed to a single thing: people causing trouble. There is no correlation between ethnicity and whether or not you cause trouble, it's your social situation/upbringing. In this case nurture wins over nature. Go to any poor part of the city, and you'll see all skin colours causing problems. Go for a walk through the city center at four am on a saturday night, and you'll see both 'furriners' and 'true Dutchmen' vomiting on the sightwalk, picking fights and hurling abuse at the police. EVERYBODY causes trouble.