Gunmen take 200+ student hostages

[Foxtrot87 0]

Quote[/b] ]We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...

He also slaughtered many innocent people. Just like those terrorists. But i agree that something has to be done.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...

Isn´t it the rough way Putin handles the chechen cause that caused all that mess ?

Violent solutions don´t work. If you haven´t learned by now, you will never...

[Blake 0]

Violent solutions don´t work. If you haven´t learned by now, you will never...

Yeah right, lets give independence for Chechnya right now, these noble acts have shown they truly deserve it. Give the perpetrators of these acts comfortable seats in the government. Maybe they then settle down on a nice farm and live peacefully ever after?

And let us pray then that it will not be a repeat of 1999 terrorism and dagestan incursions.

[Antichrist 0]

Quote[/b] ]We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...

Isn´t it the rough way Putin handles the chechen cause that caused all that mess ?

Violent solutions don´t work. If you haven´t learned by now, you will never...

Well not really! Putin is quite soft when it comes to acting. I kinda thought, why things like that never happened in USSR during Afghan War? Considering that Pakistan, Iran, USA and others were using religion as a catalyst for mujahideen movement. And yes, I do realise that it was way harder for afghanis to get across Soviet border, but they had good financial backing and it was possible. Fortunately back then, no police officer would've willingly helped armed terrorists for couple of hundred greenbacks....

And you're wrong violent solutions do work, but they have to be complete solutions, not those half-assed attempts that Russia and USA are showing now.

[Badgerboy 0]

Quote[/b] ]We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...

Isn´t it the rough way Putin handles the chechen cause that caused all that mess ?

Violent solutions don´t work. If you haven´t learned by now, you will never...

Well not really! Putin is quite soft when it comes to acting. I kinda thought, why things like that never happened in USSR during Afghan War? Considering that Pakistan, Iran, USA and others were using religion as a catalyst for mujahideen movement. And yes, I do realise that it was way harder for afghanis to get across Soviet border, but they had good financial backing and it was possible. Fortunately back then, no police officer would've willingly helped armed terrorists for couple of hundred greenbacks....

And you're wrong violent solutions do work, but they have to be complete solutions, not those half-assed attempts that Russia and USA are showing now.

Those were the days when the Soviet Union actually had tight border controls. These days its a joke.

Thats partly because of a reduction in the border guards, the corruption of those who remain, and the fact that it seem particulary easy to infiltrate a democratic country.

It was harder under the Soviet system, as the people were taught to be suspicious of any new faces, and informing the KGB (2nd directorate?) was encouraged. As you can see under a more relaxed system, its not a problem to enter the country. Look at the US. Border controls there are a joke as well, but they have more resources available to interdict groups people before they get in, and when they do enter the country to monitor them. Surely Putin should know this, he was KGB for a good few years.

Actually getting into the country is a formality these days.

Quote[/b] ]We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...

At a cost of killing 28 million of his own citizens. Get a grip, the man was worse than Hitler.

[Goeth 0]

We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...  

Are you really saying that Stalin was a good guy?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And you're wrong violent solutions do work, but they have to be complete solutions

In the chechen case that would mean that they had to be eradicated. All of them. So a violent approach is no approach at all. Over the last 5 years Putin indeed used excessive force against the chechen population and cut them from supplies and rebuilding. 75 percent of the money that was meant for rebuilding got lost. Corruption and oppression is a daily issue in Chechnia. Militias, russian military and terrorists often do work together. They are afraid of loosing influence and their income through warservice and illegal gas and oil deals. They rape the country all over. So there isn´t a lack of violence in Chechnia, but a lack of a political approach. A serious one and not the old communist corruption league that is active there right now. Just look at the recent elections...a man got into power who rules the country with his own 6000 men strong militia, a lot of them forced to join him by taking their families hostage or shooting family members. People get abducted at streets, homes, get plundered , raped, murdered...

So there is already enough violence. But no serious approach to solve the problem.

Over the last 5 years muslim influence on resistance in Chechnia went over the top as a result of the failed russian military intervention and political powerplay by Putin who gives rats about locals. That´s fact.

Now you have people who have nothing to loose...they already lost everything they had...homes...families...brothers...kids...towns...there whole life is through. Have you ever seen a serious report about Chechnia ? Makes you understand why they will never stop to bomb, kill unless Putin has another answer than killing and accepting his own troops rampaging through the country.

Of course this is no justification for what happened at the school. But unless Putin has something different to offer than violence and death squads you will see more of this to come. Soon.

Even Moscow has schools...hospitals...churches you know...

Chechnia is a bombed country. A dead country. Kids grow up in war and they have no moral problems with killing those who they think are responsible for the situation in chechnia.

Edit: Yeah and this comment:

Quote[/b] ]We definitely need someone like Stalin at the moment! He had a way of dealing with those kind of bastards...

...is really displaced. Stalin was on a line with Hitler. He was the worst mass murderer you ever had. Full stop.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]yes, Shamil Basaev but you forgot the most important fact - so it means you just didn't read everything about this conflict..

After making rebels leave the Dagestan in 99, Russian government asked Aslan Maskhadov, the president of Chechnya, for cooperation with finding those rebels (which returned back to chechnya after defeat in Dagestan) and prosecuting them...So guess what ? - did not happen, Maskhadov refused to do so and not only that, he did not allow russian forces to proceed. This way russians had to do that themselves..

First of all ,even if this is true wich i really doubt (since Maskhadov cracked down himself on wahabist terrorists) it still woulnd't have been a justification for such a war on a people that not nessecarily had anything to do with those attacks ,however i doubt that that is really true.

Besides ,the attack on the Moskou flats in '99 were a highly dubious affair ,None of the Chechen groups even not Basayev took responsabilety for that ,this while they have claimed all other attacks theirs in no time ,the timing of that attacks was also dubious ,just on a time that Putin had become pm and voices came up that Putin wanted to hold a campaign in Chechnia ,and then suddently these attacks happen giving him suposedly a casius belli ,they were the only terrorist atacks not claimed up by the Chechen terrorist group and there were multiple sources all over the world that took into consideration that that attack was staged just to provide an casius belli.

Quote[/b] ]Beside the point and all of that Chechnya conflict, what kind of parasite should a human be to take hostage children ? I mean, most of them were not older than 14..wtf is that ? That's the way allah fighters fight for their cause ? allah can suck my...censored..and those terrorist scum bags..

Well the group behind Basayev are extremist wahabists ,scum really.That doesn't mean that a number of the hostage takers wern't just people who had lost everything ,had nothing to live for and just wanted to take revenge (like the black widows) ,just like in the 9/11 attacks the leaders like Mohammed Atta were real scum while some of the more regular terrorists were really not such bad bloke's ,more or less carried away in that attack.

Quote[/b] ]I couldn't believe some of the editorial comments on CBC about this...for example they suggested there is believable evidence that Putin ordered the 1999 appartment bombings

I'm not saying there was evidance and i'm not claiming he did it ,i'm doubting though that ity was done by Chechens as they never claimed it their attack.Who else? Fsb maybe?Some individual actions of elements of the Russian army? Russian Ultra-nationalists?

Quote[/b] ]You know something about Chechen conflict but it all ends in justifying actions of rebels.

Bullshit goddamned ,i already said 3 times that i do not justify the actions of the terrorists in Basayev's group.

However the leftovers of the regular Chechen army now fighting as guerilla's in the Chechen mountains IMO have a valid cause to fight for.

Quote[/b] ] When it comes to actions of Russian forces you seem to have a strong point of view that all of them were wrong, that they were not justified but you don't really know the details, you just take out some action from the middle of the conflict and criticize it.

The 2nd Chechen war was wrong IMO and shouldn't have happened.We only saw the tip of the iceberg of atrocity's hjappend there by russians due to limited media cover and even that showed a highly bloody affair.

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]ell thats just the problem really ,outside media isn't even allowed in Chechnia ,so it's hard to get any news from what is happening out there.Why isn't media allowed there? Maybe Russia has something to hide?

Yeah, traces of UFO.

If you are going to discuss with such unreasonable sarcastic comments on the points i want to bring forward then soon ill end this discussion because you discuss in an unfair and unconstructive way.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, that's why Grozny is in ruins and there are civilian casualties. I've said multiple times in different threads that i don't support war with Chechnya because innocent people die (Chechens, Russians, etc).

Then can't you agree that much of these current terrorist attacks are a result that war in Chechnya and that Putin is for a large part responsible for these terrorist attacks?

Quote[/b] ]Interesting, if you feel bad for children why don't you support those forces that tried to free them?

Because those same forces probably have way more blood on their hands.

[Scorpio 0]

Or if they are indeed Islamic....bury them with some good ol' pig parts...

Yeah, thats it - blame it all on the islamic extremists. What makes you think or even gives you a hint of these monsters being "Islamic"? Is it because some were reported to be Arabs?

And even if they were islamic extremists, these sick animals won't even come near to true muslims.

[EiZei 0]

Or if they are indeed Islamic....bury them with some good ol' pig parts...

Yeah, thats it - blame it all on the islamic extremists. What makes you think or even gives you a hint of these monsters being "Islamic"? Is it because some were reported to be Arabs?

And even if they were islamic extremists, these sick animals won't even come near to true muslims.

IIRC majority of chechnyans are muslims.

[Tovarish 0]

I'm not saying there was evidance and i'm not claiming he did it ,i'm doubting though that ity was done by Chechens as they never claimed it their attack.Who else? Fsb maybe?Some individual actions of elements of the Russian army? Russian Ultra-nationalists?

Quote[/b] ]You know something about Chechen conflict but it all ends in justifying actions of rebels.

Little green men . Sometimes it is not in the best interests of a terrorist organization to claim responsibility. If you recall, Osama initially denied having anything to do with 9/11.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Little green men . Sometimes it is not in the best interests of a terrorist organization to claim responsibility. If you recall, Osama initially denied having anything to do with 9/11.

True ,but there had been terrorist attacks led by Basayev before that particular attack for wich he always claimed it was his ,actually he has claimed responsabilety for every single terrorist attack on Russia bewteen 1996 and now except for that particular one ,wich is somewhat strange.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Russia bewteen 1996 and now except for that particular one ,wich is somewhat strange.

Naturally he didn't claim it to be true as he suddenly realized Russians had enough of this and consequences would be severe. Claiming it would just give Russian more justification for their 2nd invasion, but before and after 1999 attacks he had nothing to lose so he did claim responsibility for those attacks.

Leaving that particular attack to the conspiracy theorists served his purpose perfectly at the time and declaring it now would just give Russians assurance that 'we were right in the first place'. Or correct if I'm wrong, he has not also denied involvement in that attack?

But recent terror attacks have shown that nothing has and will not be impossible in terms of inhumanity for these so called 'freedom fighters'. People are told that they are just criminals and fanatics not representing (muslim, but moderate-secular) people of Checnya. But these attacks make that claim increasingly harder to maintain.

[Foxtrot87 0]

I've been writing a long message and when i pressed the "Add Reply" button it said it couldn't display the page and thus i lost everything i had written. I can describe what i was writing in several words: let's end this discussion since no one is going to change his point of view. Better watch the news.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]You call the diliberate killing of 100.000's of civilians "collateral dammage" Or do you think that the US goverment couldn't presume that those nuke's wouldn't kill that much civilians?

They nuked those places to drasticly increase japan's war-weariness ,in many cases this is the goal of modern terrorism ,to frighthen nations out of a war.

Many nations taking part in WW2, allies and axis, are to blame for killing the innocent. But term for that is WAR CRIME, not terrorism. Terrorists deliberately, exclusively target soft civilian targets for goals that represent no legal government. Soldiers fighting in armies however are military representatives of their nations government and are in fact 'extensions of politics by other means'. French Resistance was not terrorism, they were fighting on behalf of the Free French government in exile, same thing with Polish uprising in Warsaw 1944. In fact Germans (after devastating Warsaw) treated the remains of the Free Polish forces as prisoners of war since they had organized military leadership and a government (in London) which they clearly reprensented. The Chechnyan resistance on the other hand is so divided into different bands of nationalists, religious fanatics, plain criminal elements and foreign 'fighters of faith' so perpetretarors of these acts can't be called no other than terrorists seeking to cause as much depsaration and death as possible.

It's getting unfortunately the same way with Palestinians, first they had the PLO which was more or less unified and internationally recognized, now they have these fanatical factions dividing their cause and making it only harder to progress in the issue as the mask of terrorism now haunts all of them.

[philcommando 0]

Freedom fighters???...lol!...go kill the generals, sabotage their supply lines, kill Putin himself for all we care...BUT WHY THE HELL DELIBRATELY KILL KIDS and civilians for their cause? or use them as shields like the pig muslim fanatics?

Seems like only muslims does such cowardly acts. IF they truly feel their faith had been tarnished, why arent they doing something to eject the rotton apples in their midst? Why must they need others to do the dirty work for them and yet scream bloody murder when others really do it?

This is not an indictment on the muslims but they better start asking themselves hard questions instead of the rest of us mollycoodling them and being political correct all the time. Patience has run out and so have mercy.

I believe in tolerance and freedom of worship, but if their faith can breed such animals, then its their job to clean it up. Worse are the scums who proffess to abhor what the animals are doing but silently approving it. Either they do it and live in peace with the rest of us or get the hell off the planet!

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I've been writing a long message and when i pressed the "Add Reply" button it said it couldn't display the page and thus i lost everything i had written. I can describe what i was writing in several words: let's end this discussion since no one is going to change his point of view. Better watch the news.

Agree ,i'm pretty much tired of this discussion to ,and not because there would be points here i couldn't reply on.

A number of people here expressed that Russia should better stop their occupation of Russia ,others believe that this wouldn't solve anything ,lets leave it at that.

And no disrespect to the people with other vissions here ,disagreements can be talked about ,but when we meet in forum's with other topics i think we can forget about such discussions and continue along as usual friendly forumers.

[Scorpio 0]

Freedom fighters???...lol!...go kill the generals, sabotage their supply lines, kill Putin himself for all we care...BUT WHY THE HELL DELIBRATELY KILL KIDS and civilians for their cause? or use them as shields like the pig muslim fanatics?

Well, I got news for you, mate...THESE ARE NOT MUSLIMS.

Whether they claim to be muslims or not, they still won't be, in the eyes of their God and fellow muslims. I find it quite hilarious that you blame what a few sick monsters did, on a whole religion and it's followers.

Quote[/b] ]Seems like only muslims does such cowardly acts. IF they truly feel their faith had been tarnished, why arent they doing something to eject the rotton apples in their midst?

Because they can't. The good ones among them have tried so many times to get rid of these imposters but it just won't do. What can they do? Just please give me an example of what they can do to "eject" them.

Quote[/b] ]I believe in tolerance and freedom of worship, but if their faith can breed such animals,

I agree with that,

but:

Quote[/b] ]then its their job to clean it up.

No, I don't agree with that. Other muslims should have to answer to NOTHING. What a few cowardly dogs did has nothing to do with the muslim communities and NONE of the good muslims should have to account for their actions. Why can't you just leave them alone? They had nothing to do with it, for goodness sake.

By your statement:

-A killed B.

- C should account for B's actions.

[Foxtrot87 0]

Quote[/b] ]A number of people here expressed that Russia should better stop their occupation of Russia

Yeah, stop Russians from doing that Just kidding.

[bn880 5]

Or if they are indeed Islamic....bury them with some good ol' pig parts...

Yeah, thats it - blame it all on the islamic extremists. What makes you think or even gives you a hint of these monsters being "Islamic"? Is it because some were reported to be Arabs?

And even if they were islamic extremists, these sick animals won't even come near to true muslims.

Maybe you are a ctually forgetting that in the end we are in the middle of a war of Muslims vs. Christians. It's all over that region, and the Muslim extremists or fighters (whatever, I don't give a rats...) are joining forces like we do in the West (coalitions).

Me, I don't want to have anything to do with modern crusades, it makes me sick that under this kind of cloak of terrorism some of our tax money goes towards them.

Terrorism is nothing new, in Medieval warfare we had terrorism, and there was eventually a similar set of beliefs that this injustice should be erradicated, and so it went.

[Foxtrot87 0]

Latest news: 322 dead, 155 children among them.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

hell those russians. Nothing has changed since WWII ... lifes dont count much...

What is that supposed to mean? If you're talking about the outcome, it's easy for you to sit at home and critisize, but it looks like most made it out. If you comment was directed at the reported killing of one of the terrorists by a civilian mob, put yourself in their shoes, would you be content with just putting him under citizen's arrest?

most made it out? Wow, so i should call it a positive outcome then!

I tell you... this thing was a big failure. Of course I have an easy life sitting here and criticising. But could it have turned out worse than that? Did you have the impression there were proffessional anti-terror units operating? I may seriously doubt that!

And then ... what about this "we had agreed with the kidnappers to extract the dead bodies..." doesnt this sound pretty ridiculous to you? Why the hell extracting dead people?

Why would the terorists agree to that when they didnt even let the hostages pee, drink or even open a window? So you think they said "yes, send 10 people in to take the dead bodies out, they start smelling" SUUUUURE !

This whole operation to me appears to be the 2nd fucked up operation... with the typical russian attitude to priortise the death of the terorists and then to let as many hostages survive it as possible. Cremlin-talk is generally different than Cremlin action.

No lesson learned from Moscow?

[denoir 0]

I disagree Albert. As I understand it, the sequence of events were like this:

1. Negotiations were in progress and an agreement was reached to let some rescue workers extract some of the wounded people.

2. One of the terrorists accidentally detonated an explosive device, collapsing the roof over the area where the bulk of the hostages were held. The majority of people that got killed overall were killed at this point by the collapsing roof.

3. Hostages panic and start fleeing.

4. Terrorists open indiscriminate fire on the fleeing hostages.

5. Russian special forces storm the building.

Basically, they had no choice. They were in the middle of negotiations that looked like they were going somewhere. Suddenly the roof collapses and the terrorists start wildly shooting hostages. They had no option but to storm the place. What else was there to do?

[Foxtrot87 0]

If you remember the bodies were booby trapped. Perhaps the terrorists wanted even more blood? I seriously doubt that those Russian officers who were to take the bodies would go there and risk their life if there was no agreement between Russians and terrorists that the bodies could be taken.

[Unhappy customer 0]

These Chechens have decided to prove that they are not fit to be in the human race. The Islamic militants continue to attack the world's nuclear super powers, so obviously they must want to be vaporized. I say that if they are so desperate to die in battle against a westerner so that they can go to heaven and get their 72 virgins, then who are we to deny them this service? I say that letting an Islamic terrorist live is a true violation of his human rights. Actualy human rights don't even apply in this case, because in my eyes, when you become a terrorist, you basically are deciding to leave the human race. I say nuke em. Chechnya, Iran, Iraq, Syria, and portions of Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Saudi Arabia. If the governments of these contries object; too bad. They allow these psychopaths to train and recruit in their contries, and even secretly celebrate when they carry out successfull attacks against civilized countries. Militant Islam is a threat to the free civillized world. Enough screwing around. Break out the nuclear weapons already.