The Iraq thread 4

[Sc@tterbrain 0]

Let me first state that I don't watch any of the American 'news' channels as they are all biased in one direction or another, mostly towards the republican side of view due to who owns them.  Independent and publicly financed news such as the BBC tend to be more accurate, but are not infallible either.

Most of your points are factually incorrect.

I find it odd one can say they don't watch news channels, yet have such an informed opinion of them.

Since you don't watch them, let me inform you of your error. In America it is quite clear that "News Channels" and News on public broadcast stations are very much not of the mind of the Right.

Fox news gained it's initial success due to this, because people desired news from a right or centrist point of view (depending on your opinion). It remains the only channel that is centrist or right. This explains the high ratings. Some other stations have now hired "conservative" hosts just so they can compete. You can get liberal news anywhere, but some Americans are smart enough to try and suppliment their information with other sources.

After it's almost blatant backing of Bush durring his first election, FOX news channel has backed off slightly from its Right leanings. Yet it still slaughters all other news broadcasts and channels in ratings.

Today the only place your going to find "Right Wing" broadcasts in the US is on the radio. But that may not be the case for long as elements are trying to censor those shows.

As far as Fox and the upcoming election, things may get weird. Rupert Murdoch is now dumping money into the Clinton Campaign. If Fox pulls the crap it did with the first Bush campaign, by strictly regulating information and news on certain candidates, I hope Fox will just become another CNN..toilet ratings.

What dose this have to do with Iraq?

In the case of Iraq, most news broadcasts and stations have been playing the same game. Telling the news in accordance to the views of the producers and execs.

If anyone really claims to have a handle on exactly whats going on in Iraq, and some idea as to how it can be fixed, make sure you quote the source you heard it from too.

(No, just leave is not a solution. You must detail the execution, time frame, and possible ramifications to be taken seriously.)

[chops 111]

Nothing makes me more sick than hearing people discuss the political situation in Iraq based upon things they have seen on the news on TV.

So what is the alternative then? We all sit down in front of the politicians and say "Ooh really Mr Cheney? 'The insurgency is in it's last days' is it?"

An informed citizenry is one of the fundamental cornerstones of a healthy democracy.

People telling others that "it makes them sick" when they express their opinions is the total opposite to democracy, the very thing that is now (in the absence of WMD) supposed to be the reason for US and coalition troops in Iraq.

"Hi I'm here to bring democracy to your country and when people have opinions about their governemnts actions and policies, it makes me sick."

I understand and appreciate that having been there you have experience and knowledge the rest of us can never have. But don't tell people it makes you sick to hear people exercising the right for which you're fighting to give Iraqis

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]In the case of Iraq, most news broadcasts and stations have been playing the same game. Telling the news in accordance to the views of the producers and execs.

That´s one thing I certainly do not agree with. If there was a tendency in reporting about the Iraq war for the first years, it was that all major broadcasters in the US were playing along the GOP interests. They did not question the initial reasons GOP offered for the war and there was hardly any outspoken critisism against the war as this would have put them into the corner of being unpatriotic and unamerican. They have learned from the scandals about evidence that has been made up and scandals like Abu Ghraib or the Tillman story that the things they got told to release by the GOP are very questionable or even completely made up.

They have learned that the government can´t be trusted on that issue while being forced to play along the rules if they don´t want to loose their correspondents who were with the troops. Creating the "embedded journalists" the GOP introduced the best way to control and influence media perspective on the war and manipulate the output. Still, reality has shown that you can´t hide the truth endlessly, no matter how hard you try to discredit the source.

I guess people who are really interested in a subject of global matter do not just wathc one TV station to get their infos. They read papers from all over the world to get as much input as possible and then draw their conclusions. Internet has opened the door for global news availability. If you want to get yourself informed, you have the chance to. If you want to ignore what you don´t like to hear, you´ll have a hard time defending your stance, granted that everyone today has the possibility to get news from almost every thinkable perspective.

The Bush administration has been very manipulative with the press for years and it definately took to long before they woke up and realized that the press has other obligations than tooting the GOP propaganda unchecked.

[baddo 0]

0311, you are blaming Iraqi troops of not behaving like you'd want to see them behave.

That's really not the problem in my opinion. The problem is that some country decided to start a war (with no acceptance from United Nations and from many independent countries, thus even many US citizens say the whole war is illegal and totally unjustified) against Iraq and decided to put Iraq into a chaos.

A solution to this problem in my opinion is not to get the Iraqi troops to behave like you want to see them behave. There is some good reason behind their behaviour. In my opinion that reason is not lazyness or cowardness of the Iraqi people, but it is mostly unwillingness to cooperate with US military and government. There is little reason for an Iraqi citizen to feel good about US military or government. If they don't feel good about you being there, can you realistically expect them to work with you with good motivation? Do they see that the current-day Iraq, where USA tries to control the country, is something the Iraqi people want to be part of, want to protect it? Want to protect US interests in the Middle East? That's what you are basically asking from the Iraqi people. What reason they have to do that? I am sure many people around the World would try to drive invaders out of their country, no matter the reason the invasion happened in the first place. You would do it too if it happened in your country, no matter if your previous President was a cruel dictator.

First step of the solution is that USA apologizes the Iraqi people, and the whole World, its mistake of starting the war. That in my opinion is the first step of healing the situation. People are angry at USA and for a damn good reason.

I am definitely a friend of the USA. Friends can criticize each other and still be friends. I would be very very happy if the USA would start spending the huge amount of money that goes into keeping its military at the pointless war in Iraq into something else than a military. Like really helping the Iraqi people, not by pointing a gun at them but asking them, what do they want? How can you help them? For sure you wouldn't feel like you were helped if some foreign people walk past your house, holding an assault rifle and a couple of hand grenades, plus a knife in between your teeth. That's only going to get you offended I am sure. That's how I would feel if it happened here. I would feel offended and I would want the foreign troops out of my country as soon as possible. It wouldn't help if the foreign troops gave me candy and smiled at me. I would still tell them to get the hell out of here. This is my country, we take care of our business and you take care of your business, but in your own country thank you very much for doing that. Don't you think the Iraqi people think the same? Even if they are in some Iraqi military, that's in my opinion the basic feeling they have in the deepest of their hearts. They don't want you to be there.

Instead of spending ridiculous amounts of money into an illegal and totally pointless war, why not spend the same amount of money in the American continent? Why not truly make the USA the greatest country of the World by improving its infrastructure with all that money? Improving health care? Making sure people in the USA have jobs, other than in the military or in businesses that benefit from USA being in a war? Starting to show the World what the ideologies of freedom and democracy were really meant to be, inside your own borders?

I so much would like to see a President in the USA who turns your country around and stops going on rampage around the World and starts to concentrate on making USA itself a better place to live in. I think there is just too many things not right inside your borders that you really couldn't afford to throw all that money into something that really wasn't your business in the first place. I really don't believe USA is a safer place now after the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq. It's the opposite. The more you point people with your weapons and kill them and the more aggressive and bully behaviour you use in your foreign politics, the more fire you draw into your own country. It's as simple as that, someone said in another thread that if you live by the gun, you die by the gun and I think it is totally true also for a nation, not just for individuals. I'm sorry to say this but the USA is living by the gun and its going to die by the gun, if someone isn't going to step up and put a stop to it.

[0311 0]

Nothing makes me more sick than hearing people discuss the political situation in Iraq based upon things they have seen on the news on TV.

So what is the alternative then? We all sit down in front of the politicians and say "Ooh really Mr Cheney? 'The insurgency is in it's last days' is it?"

An informed citizenry is one of the fundamental cornerstones of a healthy democracy.

People telling others that "it makes them sick" when they express their opinions is the total opposite to democracy, the very thing that is now (in the absence of WMD) supposed to be the reason for US and coalition troops in Iraq.

"Hi I'm here to bring democracy to your country and when people have opinions about their governemnts actions and policies, it makes me sick."

I understand and appreciate that having been there you have experience and knowledge the rest of us can never have. But don't tell people it makes you sick to hear people exercising the right for which you're fighting to give Iraqis

Chops, you misunderstood me. I have no qualms with the people discussing Iraqi events, infact I would like that people take an even greater interest in the situation over there.

My problem is with the fact that no news agencies have any clue as to what goes on over there.

Honestly, a person is probably going to be better off ignoring the news considering how much of it is deliberately made up, or changed.

[0311 0]

0311, you are blaming Iraqi troops of not behaving like you'd want to see them behave.

That's really not the problem in my opinion. The problem is that some country decided to start a war (with no acceptance from United Nations and from many independent countries, thus even many US citizens say the whole war is illegal and totally unjustified) against Iraq and decided to put Iraq into a chaos.

A solution to this problem in my opinion is not to get the Iraqi troops to behave like you want to see them behave. There is some good reason behind their behaviour. In my opinion that reason is not lazyness or cowardness of the Iraqi people, but it is mostly unwillingness to cooperate with US military and government. There is little reason for an Iraqi citizen to feel good about US military or government. If they don't feel good about you being there, can you realistically expect them to work with you with good motivation? Do they see that the current-day Iraq, where USA tries to control the country, is something the Iraqi people want to be part of, want to protect it? Want to protect US interests in the Middle East? That's what you are basically asking from the Iraqi people. What reason they have to do that? I am sure many people around the World would try to drive invaders out of their country, no matter the reason the invasion happened in the first place. You would do it too if it happened in your country, no matter if your previous President was a cruel dictator.

First step of the solution is that USA apologizes the Iraqi people, and the whole World, its mistake of starting the war. That in my opinion is the first step of healing the situation. People are angry at USA and for a damn good reason.

I am definitely a friend of the USA. Friends can criticize each other and still be friends. I would be very very happy if the USA would start spending the huge amount of money that goes into keeping its military at the pointless war in Iraq into something else than a military. Like really helping the Iraqi people, not by pointing a gun at them but asking them, what do they want? How can you help them? For sure you wouldn't feel like you were helped if some foreign people walk past your house, holding an assault rifle and a couple of hand grenades, plus a knife in between your teeth. That's only going to get you offended I am sure. That's how I would feel if it happened here. I would feel offended and I would want the foreign troops out of my country as soon as possible. It wouldn't help if the foreign troops gave me candy and smiled at me. I would still tell them to get the hell out of here. This is my country, we take care of our business and you take care of your business, but in your own country thank you very much for doing that. Don't you think the Iraqi people think the same? Even if they are in some Iraqi military, that's in my opinion the basic feeling they have in the deepest of their hearts. They don't want you to be there.

Instead of spending ridiculous amounts of money into an illegal and totally pointless war, why not spend the same amount of money in the American continent? Why not truly make the USA the greatest country of the World by improving its infrastructure with all that money? Improving health care? Making sure people in the USA have jobs, other than in the military or in businesses that benefit from USA being in a war? Starting to show the World what the ideologies of freedom and democracy were really meant to be, inside your own borders?

I so much would like to see a President in the USA who turns your country around and stops going on rampage around the World and starts to concentrate on making USA itself a better place to live in. I think there is just too many things not right inside your borders that you really couldn't afford to throw all that money into something that really wasn't your business in the first place. I really don't believe USA is a safer place now after the wars in Afghanistan and in Iraq. It's the opposite. The more you point people with your weapons and kill them and the more aggressive and bully behaviour you use in your foreign politics, the more fire you draw into your own country. It's as simple as that, someone said in another thread that if you live by the gun, you die by the gun and I think it is totally true also for a nation, not just for individuals. I'm sorry to say this but the USA is living by the gun and its going to die by the gun, if someone isn't going to step up and put a stop to it.

Baddo, what are you basing your opinion on? I'm basing mine on personal experience during training IA and IP forces. I know what their level of motivation is, and I understood why they acted the way they did at times.

In the 8 1/2 months I served in Ar Ramadi, I spent several months as a detachment of 5 other Marines living with the Iraqis, eating their food, watching DVDs with them, joking, discussing our girls back home, killing time in general. I went on missions with the very Iraqis we trained. I knew their personal lives, their political opinions, their various reasons for joining the IA/IPs.

Thus I think I'm more than qualified to describe their strengths and deficiencies. Yeah, many of them don't want us there, but almost all of them trusted us and thought of us as friends. Yes, there IS an enormous discipline problem within the Iraqi forces, and it isn't a result of spite or fear of us.

I could go on and on about internal difficulties of the IA/ IPs, but I don't have the time right now. Until the Iraqi people in general can decide on what kind of life they want for themselves and find the resolve to make it happen, life there will stay unstable.

[baddo 0]

0311, with all respect yes I believe what you say about what you saw and what you experienced. I don't question your experience from the field. Sorry I should've made that clear in my previous post. But I stand behind my words, the real problems with Iraq war are not seen like that.

The basic story still is, USA invaded Iraq. It is quite offending for the local people in my opinion. I would want foreign troops out of my country. So would you want foreign troops out of your country. It doesn't matter now that there was a dictator in Iraq. Are things better now in Iraq compared to Saddam Hussein -era? I don't think so. What the Iraqi people see is that their country is in chaos and USA started it, right?

Might be simplified but that's how it goes in my opinion. It all comes down to the basics as with everything in life, when things get difficult.

There must be a very good reason why there are so many attacks against the US troops in Iraq. The reason definitely is not that the Iraqi people think USA has done a good job by invading their country. It's something else.

Note that I still say I believe in your experience from Iraq. I trust you when you say you saw how the Iraqi soldiers behaved. Just that I don't think the reasons why USA faces strong resistance in Iraq can be seen from that.

I must say again, I really hope that the USA would start spending its money differently. Divert your money into something else than into your military and into pointless wars. Maybe the military is the wrong institution to be in Iraq. Military is designed to be effective in killing, not in reconstruction or in peace-making. Military is destructive, not constructive by nature. As such, pouring all that money into it will not make Iraq (or USA) any good in my opinion.

[0311 0]

0311, with all respect yes I believe what you say about what you saw and what you experienced. I don't question your experience from the field. Sorry I should've made that clear in my previous post. But I stand behind my words, the real problems with Iraq war are not seen like that.

The basic story still is, USA invaded Iraq. It is quite offending for the local people in my opinion. I would want foreign troops out of my country. So would you want foreign troops out of your country. It doesn't matter now that there was a dictator in Iraq. Are things better now in Iraq compared to Saddam Hussein -era? I don't think so. What the Iraqi people see is that their country is in chaos and USA started it, right?

Might be simplified but that's how it goes in my opinion. It all comes down to the basics as with everything in life, when things get difficult.

There must be a very good reason why there are so many attacks against the US troops in Iraq. The reason definitely is not that the Iraqi people think USA has done a good job by invading their country. It's something else.

Note that I still say I believe in your experience from Iraq. I trust you when you say you saw how the Iraqi soldiers behaved. Just that I don't think the reasons why USA faces strong resistance in Iraq can be seen from that.

I must say again, I really hope that the USA would start spending its money differently. Divert your money into something else than into your military and into pointless wars. Maybe the military is the wrong institution to be in Iraq. Military is designed to be effective in killing, not in reconstruction or in peace-making. Military is destructive, not constructive by nature. As such, pouring all that money into it will not make Iraq (or USA) any good in my opinion.

Yes you're right, the reason why we are being attacked in Iraq and elsewhere is not because of the Iraqi armys failure. As you said, there's alot more to it than that.

My only point was that the reason it's taking so long to leave/hand over power completely to the Iraqi forces is due to their operational incompetence, as well as shortsightedness within both our and the Iraqi govt.

[walker 0]

Hi all

There is a lot of propaganda being put out in the US.

I would not touch anything by Fox as it has a policy of lying to their viewers/readership. I Sh*t You Not, they actually said they had a right to lie to their viewers/readership in their appeal of legal case they lost in front of a jury.

http://www.foxbghsuit.com/

Of course there is probably also a case under consumer protection if Fox call them selves a news organization.

I think reports in quality news papers like this one in the Washington Post are the most reliable:

Quote[/b] ]In the Middle of a Civil War

By Gian P. Gentile

Tuesday, August 7, 2007; Page A13

In late February 2006, al-Qaeda destroyed the Askariya Shiite shrine in Samarra. During the previous two months that my cavalry squadron had been operating in Iraq, my main focus was the technical training of the Iraqi national police and combined operations with them against Sunni insurgents in west Baghdad. Before Samarra, it did not seem important which areas of Baghdad were Shiite or Sunni or that the police battalions I operated alongside were almost completely Shiite. Before Samarra, I assumed that Iraqi citizens saw the national police as the security arm of the elected, and thus legitimate, government and that the officers had the people's support against insurgents.

It took about three weeks after the attack, in which time my combat patrols sprang from one Sunni mosque to another to protect them from Shiite militias that were at times supported by members of the national police, for me to realize what was really going on. For me, Samarra came to define the nature of the violence in Iraq: civil war.

Some say that Iraq cannot be in a civil war because the country's major institutions are not fighting each other with conventional military forces. But this is too formulaic and restrictive for what I saw and heard. On the streets of west Baghdad, almost every person I spoke to told me of a close relative or friend who was killed by Sunni insurgents or Shiite militia members.

In the summer of 2006, my squadron was assigned to Amiriyah, a Sunni district of Baghdad. I was the American commander in charge, and over five months I came to know well Sunni perspectives of Iraq. Many if not most Iraqi Sunnis think that the Iraqi government is not legitimate but sectarian and out to crush them. The Sunnis in Amiriyah believed that the government was using its institutional powers to deprive them of essential services such as electricity, trash pickup, banking facilities, health care and, most important, security. People I spoke with said that Iraqi security forces, especially the local and national police, were determined to kill them because they were Sunni. Their response to these ideas was not passive: Residents of Amiriyah, working with Sunni insurgents, would regularly target the Shiites in the area as payback for what they saw the government doing to them. The bodies that my squadron helped retrieve from the streets each day were almost always Shiite.

I decided that the best way to secure the neighborhood would be to hire local men, vetted by me and trusted imams in the district, and turn them into a police force. Not only did this prove to be exceedingly difficult, but government officials often told me that doing this was arming their enemy.

I ordered a concrete barrier to be built around Amiriyah and limited entry to one checkpoint controlled by the Iraqi army. The goal was to keep Sunni insurgents from bringing in weapons and to prevent attacks by Shiite militias. But while the barrier helped isolate the neighborhood from outside insurgents and militias, it could not stop, and actually facilitated, killings within Amiriyah. The security we helped provide for Sunnis gave them increased freedom to go out and kill Shiites or, more recently, to conduct fights against local al-Qaeda members. Amiriyah became one of the safest areas in Baghdad for Sunnis but lethal for the few remaining Shiites...

Follow Link for the full article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....63.html

Then there is the work of the New York Times which has done some solid reporting both audio, written and photographic from the US soldiers perspective.

And reporting such as this by Chanel 4 who have done many hours of full scale documentaries such as this: I have linked to the news article but please be aware the link [ Watch the report ] to the documentary video on this page by the embedded journalist is extremely harrowing both in its content and in the testimony by the US troops of Apache company. I have not linked directly to it.

http://www.channel4.com/news....02#fold

BUT Of course the stories we are not getting are those of the day to day Iraqi citizens struggle to survive; in country that is by all economic and infrastructure measures worse off than it was under Saddam.

It is well known that certain political people are responsible for our being in Iraq and for the hundreds of thousands of deaths that have been the result.

If things are not better by September then those political heads must role. Even those who have left power must be brought to book and indicted. Their personal and family fortunes should then be so reduced as to cause them to live in public housing.

Sadly walker

[USMC NEEDER 0]

Hi all

There is a lot of propaganda being put out in the US.

I would not touch anything by Fox as it has a policy of lying to their viewers/readership. I Sh*t You Not, they actually said they had a right to lie to their viewers/readership in their appeal of legal case they lost in front of a jury.

http://www.foxbghsuit.com/

Of course there is probably also a case under consumer protection if Fox call them selves a news organization.

I think reports in quality news papers like this one in the Washington Post are the most reliable:

Quote[/b] ]In the Middle of a Civil War

By Gian P. Gentile

Tuesday, August 7, 2007; Page A13

In late February 2006, al-Qaeda destroyed the Askariya Shiite shrine in Samarra. During the previous two months that my cavalry squadron had been operating in Iraq, my main focus was the technical training of the Iraqi national police and combined operations with them against Sunni insurgents in west Baghdad. Before Samarra, it did not seem important which areas of Baghdad were Shiite or Sunni or that the police battalions I operated alongside were almost completely Shiite. Before Samarra, I assumed that Iraqi citizens saw the national police as the security arm of the elected, and thus legitimate, government and that the officers had the people's support against insurgents.

It took about three weeks after the attack, in which time my combat patrols sprang from one Sunni mosque to another to protect them from Shiite militias that were at times supported by members of the national police, for me to realize what was really going on. For me, Samarra came to define the nature of the violence in Iraq: civil war.

Some say that Iraq cannot be in a civil war because the country's major institutions are not fighting each other with conventional military forces. But this is too formulaic and restrictive for what I saw and heard. On the streets of west Baghdad, almost every person I spoke to told me of a close relative or friend who was killed by Sunni insurgents or Shiite militia members.

In the summer of 2006, my squadron was assigned to Amiriyah, a Sunni district of Baghdad. I was the American commander in charge, and over five months I came to know well Sunni perspectives of Iraq. Many if not most Iraqi Sunnis think that the Iraqi government is not legitimate but sectarian and out to crush them. The Sunnis in Amiriyah believed that the government was using its institutional powers to deprive them of essential services such as electricity, trash pickup, banking facilities, health care and, most important, security. People I spoke with said that Iraqi security forces, especially the local and national police, were determined to kill them because they were Sunni. Their response to these ideas was not passive: Residents of Amiriyah, working with Sunni insurgents, would regularly target the Shiites in the area as payback for what they saw the government doing to them. The bodies that my squadron helped retrieve from the streets each day were almost always Shiite.

I decided that the best way to secure the neighborhood would be to hire local men, vetted by me and trusted imams in the district, and turn them into a police force. Not only did this prove to be exceedingly difficult, but government officials often told me that doing this was arming their enemy.

I ordered a concrete barrier to be built around Amiriyah and limited entry to one checkpoint controlled by the Iraqi army. The goal was to keep Sunni insurgents from bringing in weapons and to prevent attacks by Shiite militias. But while the barrier helped isolate the neighborhood from outside insurgents and militias, it could not stop, and actually facilitated, killings within Amiriyah. The security we helped provide for Sunnis gave them increased freedom to go out and kill Shiites or, more recently, to conduct fights against local al-Qaeda members. Amiriyah became one of the safest areas in Baghdad for Sunnis but lethal for the few remaining Shiites...

Follow Link for the full article

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....63.html

Then there is the work of the New York Times which has done some solid reporting both audio, written and photographic from the US soldiers perspective.

And reporting such as this by Chanel 4 who have done many hours of full scale documentaries such as this: I have linked to the news article but please be aware the link [ Watch the report ] to the documentary video on this page by the embedded journalist is extremely harrowing both in its content and in the testimony by the US troops of Apache company. I have not linked directly to it.

http://www.channel4.com/news....02#fold

BUT Of course the stories we are not getting are those of the day to day Iraqi citizens struggle to survive; in country that is by all economic and infrastructure measures worse off than it was under Saddam.

It is well known that certain political people are responsible for our being in Iraq and for the hundreds of thousands of deaths that have been the result.

If things are not better by September then those political heads must role. Even those who have left power must be brought to book and indicted. Their personal and family fortunes should then be so reduced as to cause them to live in public housing.

Sadly walker

Not trust FOX? Alright I'll give you democrats 4 years as president before we get attacked continuously by terrorists...

[Balschoiw 0]

The only ones attacking the US , it´s justice system, it´s basic rights and it´s people are the members of G.W.´s White House staff. It´s not terrorists, but your own government that does most harm to the people of the US right now.

[baddo 0]

The only ones attacking the US , it´s justice system, it´s basic rights and it´s people are the members of G.W.´s White House staff. It´s not terrorists, but your own government that does most harm to the people of the US right now.

Indeed, that's why I just said 'live by the gun, die by the gun' is the way USA is going and 'start to show what freedom and democracy were meant to mean, inside your own borders'.

At some point in my life I have even considered working in the USA, so I don't consider it bad in everything. During the recent years what I have seen USA do, both inside and outside its borders, my view has changed and now I think maybe I won't bother visiting USA even as a tourist. That means no money from me to USA. Your economy will suffer in the long run as more and more people start to have doubts like I have. You can say I am only an individual with doubts, but individuals run corporations and countries, thus the effect can get huge, if it isn't already.

One person once said to me that the USA is the most fascistist country in the World nowadays. Maybe an exaggeration but there has to be some truth in it, I am sure of that. The people of the USA should really become worried of what their admininstration is doing when people have this kind of view of their country. It's nowhere near 'freedom' and 'democracy', the idealistic values your country has tried to imply are its greatest values.

The damage GWB and his administration have done to you and your country is so big that you should have thrown them out of the White House already. There is a quote, maybe I learned it from Operation Flashpoint, which goes something like this 'for evil people to win, it only needs the good people to remain silent' and that's I believe what has happened in the USA. The good people see what is truly going on, but they don't act for whatever reasons. I believe it's what happened in the 1930's Germany, and you all know what was the result.

With power comes responsibility. As USA is clearly the greatest 'superpower' in the World today, the power is huge, but so is the responsibility. I believe I am not the only one in the World who thinks that the USA has not acted in a responsible way, compared to what kind of power it has. It makes me sad that such a big and powerful gun like the USA has the kind of leaders pulling the trigger as there has been in the recent years.

Again I must say, I am a friend of the USA. That's why it makes me very sad to see what has happened to your country during the recent years.

[Gisen 0]

Not trust FOX? Alright I'll give you democrats 4 years as president before we get attacked continuously by terrorists...

This is a common delusion amongst our guests from across the pond, but strange as it may seem to you, NOT EVERYONE ON THE INTERNET IS FROM AMERICA. Walker is not; Balschiow is not; a great many of the other forum users are not. Hence your epithet of "you democrats" does not apply, as political parties are unique to nations and one countries democrat is another countries socialist.

[martinovic 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, many of them don't want us there, but almost all of them trusted us and thought of us as friends.

Just because they made you think that does not mean that they actually do like you...

[Black Sphere 0]

The only ones attacking the US , it´s justice system, it´s basic rights and it´s people are the members of G.W.´s White House staff. It´s not terrorists, but your own government that does most harm to the people of the US right now.

I see this is more than just an 'Iraqi' thread so; It'll be very interesting to see, when/if the time will come, when the americans will leave all to be (so they can make their nuclear bombs and ballistic rockets in peace or to purchase them from Russians), and only the american justice system, their basic rights and the members of White House's staff will be those who will attack the United States, if the terrorists will leave them alone then. Do ya think it'll be so? I don't, I'm not so naive.

[0311 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, many of them don't want us there, but almost all of them trusted us and thought of us as friends.

Just because they made you think that does not mean that they actually do like you...

Well no shit man. That's the way it is anywhere you go. We're all capable of judging a persons character, even Iraqis.

[jtec 0]

The only ones attacking the US , it´s justice system, it´s basic rights and it´s people are the members of G.W.´s White House staff. It´s not terrorists, but your own government that does most harm to the people of the US right now.

I see this is more than just an 'Iraqi' thread so; It'll be very interesting to see, when/if the time will come, when the americans will leave all to be (so they can make their nuclear bombs and ballistic rockets in peace or to purchase them from Russians), and only the american justice system, their basic rights and the members of White House's staff will be those who will attack the United States, if the terrorists will leave them alone then. Do ya think it'll be so? I don't, I'm not so naive.

People dont attack others for no reason. Ask yourself what the reason may be

[Black Sphere 0]

The only ones attacking the US , it´s justice system, it´s basic rights and it´s people are the members of G.W.´s White House staff. It´s not terrorists, but your own government that does most harm to the people of the US right now.

I see this is more than just an 'Iraqi' thread so; It'll be very interesting to see, when/if the time will come, when the americans will leave all to be (so they can make their nuclear bombs and ballistic rockets in peace or to purchase them from Russians), and only the american justice system, their basic rights and the members of White House's staff will be those who will attack the United States, if the terrorists will leave them alone then. Do ya think it'll be so? I don't, I'm not so naive.

People dont attack others for no reason.  Ask yourself what the reason may be

This is true as it is bull. For Hitler some deep personal frustrations were enough to hate the Jewes and to perform a holocaust, and his political frustrations from WW1 were enough to start a second WW and cause millions of deaths, but in fact he had no reason. As doesen't have such reasons those muslim fanatics and extremists, but they have a plan and agenda. Ask yourself what plan and agenda that might be.

[jtec 0]

Well i only heard about muslim extremists when september 11th happened. I dont remember the UK having any problems with any muslim state and our only terrorist threats were from the IRA which were helped with funding from our American cousins (thanks again guys ). Seems we get rid of the IRA breathe a sigh of relief and then Blair thinks hang on, i really want to get my name in bold letters in the history books and be a idiot! More terrorists exist thanks to Bush and Blair. We are the ones that suffer because of their inabilty to actually give a damn what people really think. Both the UK and USA need to get their troops home now and take a good long hard look at sorting out their own country before messing around with countries they have no understanding of!

[Black Sphere 0]

Well, I won't go now with asking "what about all those London bombs in past couple of years and recently?" and with some other questions which are rising by themselves from your answer. And people should stop to mix or merge September 11th with Iraq and the rest of current global and political situation; that 'operation' was planned long before and it took years for them to implement it, and its original intention was to provoke western attack on Afghanistan (which happened) and to inflame a global muslims vs. unbeleivers conflict (which didn't happened). So, by such plain logic like I meet in this thread from some people here all the americans must do is to elect the president which will then withdraw the troops from Iraq (and leave it to Al Queda), and Saudi Arabia and all states which are muslim(???), and they will have peace from fanatical muslims and their jihad. If only would be so simply...

Of course I do agree; americans shouldn't be in Iraq in a first place. But now it's too late...

[walker 0]

Of course I do agree; americans shouldn't be in Iraq in a first place. But now it's too late...

Hi all

Yes the reasons for going in were 100% spurious and even the most ardent of The Bush Administration (TBA) suporters know it.

George Bush junior and his administration asked to be given untill September to put it right.

They have untill then.

Sadly walker

[jtec 0]

The 7 7 bombings only took place due to our (when i say our i mean the British government) involvement with the invasion of Iraq. No matter who is voted in it wont make no difference. The general public have no say in anything, we are just led to believe we do. There will be a time when we the people stand as a whole and i cant wait personally, as our lives are put at risk for the greeds of the power people. Bush and Blair should have stood trial for war crimes for the deaths of the innocent people of Iraq, the allied soldiers and the allied citizens who have died due to their ill judgements.

Hopefully peace will eventually come to all. Lessons should be learnt, but are never due to ignorance.

[jtec 0]

The 7 7 bombings only took place due to our (when i say our i mean the British government) involvement with the invasion of Iraq. No matter who is voted in it wont make no difference. The general public have no say in anything, we are just led to believe we do. There will be a time when we the people stand as a whole and i cant wait personally, as our lives are put at risk for the greeds of the power people. Bush and Blair should have stood trial for war crimes for the deaths of the innocent people of Iraq, the allied soldiers and the allied citizens who have died due to their ill judgements.

Hopefully peace will eventually come to all. Lessons should be learnt, but are never due to ignorance.

Sorry double post server was stuck... please delete one

[Black Sphere 0]

The 7 7 bombings only took place due to our (when i say our i mean the British government) involvement with the invasion of Iraq.

Maybe you're even right here thou I very doubt it; those weren't some Iraqi's or even iraqi freedom fighters or name them whatever you want and try to connect them with Iraq however you can. Were there any political statement (that I'm not awared of) before or after those terrorist attacks which connects them with Iraq? If not (or even if yes), then what on earth have those terrorists in common with Iraq? Are they connected with it thru the religion then? It's idiotic even to think on such way, and they are certainly thinking on such way. So was really their goal to force the brits to retreat from Iraq? I think that was not the main reason at all, as was not in/with Spain; what is Al Qaeda to be Iraq's caretaker? True, after the spain's retreat there were no more terrorist attacks. For now... The point is; I think it would be not much different if the USA and the west in general would leave the muslim world completely alone and on their own, only the 'reasons' (which are hiding the real goal) would change; the 'discrimination' of the muslims and their 'rights' in the western world, all sorts of 'insults' of muslim religion and so on, but in fact a deep hatered towards the western world, its culture and its way of living would be reason enough for those fanatics and extremists to kill an infidel or to plant a bomb. In fact we already have all this; one caricature which 'insults' islam (btw, we have tons of worst caricatures which are 'insulting' the christianity and lately also Jewes in iran's newspapers, we have a denial of a holocaust from Iran's president Ahmadinejad...) sets hundreds of american and other flags into flames throughout the muslim world (I can't even imagine the reaction if american citizens would masively set on fire Iran's and Pakistan's flags for instance); it looks almost like a war state. We have fatwa's, a holland journalist(or writer) was murdered on the street just because he 'insulted' islam... So ... "poor, not happy nor blessed are those who are in bliss of their heart's kindness, but in truth deceived with a vail of denial over their eyes, and slain on the altar as sheeps".

[USMC NEEDER 0]

Guys,

Why do the news stations always say how much americans die and they never say how much terroists or how many bombs we defused?