The Iraq thread 4

[Mr_Tea 0]

That`s Hollywood. It has not much to do with real life. Imo Black Hawk Down was much closer to the real thing, but that`s another story.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

That`s Hollywood. It has not much to do with real life. Imo Black Hawk Down was much closer to the real thing, but that`s another story.

With all respect Sir. You must first watch it to judge!

[billybob2002 0]

That`s Hollywood. It has not much to do with real life. Imo Black Hawk Down was much closer to the real thing, but that`s another story.

With all respect Sir. You must first watch it to judge!  

Miss the show but caught a sec of it. People on another forum (   )  said:

-too many commericals and not enough show.

-decent entertainment if you do not have high expections of the show.

-the CLICHES (i.e. the dumb officer....cheating wife).

-it could improve like other shows on that network (i.e. The Shield).

-etc. (i.e. Bitchin about lack of flash suppressors Having a marine technical advisor but it is a show about a army unit).

It was almost a mix review on their forum. There should be a torrent out...Maybe I catch the replay and give it my take.

[kerosene 0]

If anyone finds a torrent could they PM me please, I found one last night but its already closed and I really want to see this.

EDIT: FOund a link, PM me if you want it, or poke around on military photos.net - its pretty decent speed once it gets going.

[ralphwiggum 6]

-decent entertainment if you do not have high expections of the show.

-the CLICHES (i.e. the dumb officer....cheating wife).

-it could improve like other shows on that network (i.e. The Shield).

-etc. (i.e. Bitchin about lack of flash suppressors Having a marine technical advisor but it is a show about a army unit).

pretty much sums it up.

some of the forums i read liked it some are divided and some hate it, calling another left wing propaganda.

personally, not that interested.

[Fork122 0]

Quote[/b] ]so noone watched it? Great! Thanks!

I would have appreciated some feedback!

I missed Over There but recorded it on an old VHS tape, I'll probably watch it this afternoon.

Edit: Anyone who still want's to watch the pilot episode, it's replaying tomorrow (Saturday July, 30th) on FX at 10PM Eastern.

Yahoo! TV

[sputnik monroe 102]

I watched it Schweizer, I hadn't heard about it until the day before they showed it.

    I had all kinds of fears watching it, would they portray the insurgents as saints and the Americans as monsters, would they linger on abuse of prisoners, would the explosions look like napalm, would they be using an unlimited ammo cheat? Some parts surprised me, others I just rolled my eyes.

    Are the insurgents glorified? I was totally surprised, the ones in this episode actually don't seem to be. The episode mostly centers on a mosque full of insurgents. The Americans are trying to negotiate the insurgents to surrender. The insurgents shoot at the Americans who are not allowed to fire back, because as one sarge says "We aren't allowed to shoot back, it's not our decision." he goes on " That decision is up to some mother fucking general far in the rear who has to decide if we'll look bad or not." He goes on to explain that there is an Al Jazeera camera crew in the mosque with the insurgents. Later the insurgents negotiate to have their wounded brought out. Later that night they are to come out under a white flag and turn the wounded over for care. Instead they come out shooting. I wasn't expecting that from Hollywood. If any thing I figured they would have the Americans mow them down and shoot and stab the wounded.

      They portray the Americans rather varied. One of the soldiers smokes pot and brags about slitting a child sentries throat on a mission. He also delights in headshots. The other guys seem to be pretty balanced. You do get all the clichés though. As Billy Bob previously mentioned the sergeant is an idiot and his underling is more qualified to lead than him. Ho hum... Why is it always like that in every war movie and show?   Being Hollywood I figured they would portray the Americans running in and bayoneting children while blasting Metallica and drinking whisky and screaming Yee Haw, all the while wearing cowboy hats. They actually didn't go that route though, so that surprised me.

    They bring up the prisoner scandal at the end of the episode. They finally conclude the mosque situation. While they are leading away some of the prisoners, one of them turns to the Al Jazeera camera man and starts shouting in English, "You have us now Americans, should I strip naked now or wait until you get me to Abu Graihb. When do you start beating me?†So they do mention the prisoner abuse scandal but not in a cheesy way. That is until next episode, at the end of the show they showed clips from the next episode, which seem to show a bearded soldier (probably nasty CIA or crooked Spec Ops) and he's beating up a prisoner.

    Do the explosions look like napalm? Oh god yeah, Hollywood never gets that right. When they come out under the white flag shooting, a fireball of flame explodes near the US troops. I'm not sure if that was supposed to be a RPG or mortar or what but good god. Looked like a damn propane tank exploded. For the rest of the firefight there are little pieces of burning debris flickering all about.

    Unlimited ammo cheat? I didn't really pay attention actually to that. I don't recall any one firing full auto for minutes at a time with out reloading. For the most part they don't even show them shooting. They just show people getting shot and falling down.

     Final verdict? I don't know, just my personal opinion but I don't think I'll be watching it. When I turn on the news at night I see this crap for real, I really don't feel the need to see Hollywood’s artistic take on it.  

      The article you linked to Schweizer about the soldiers previewing it probably gives a much better view on it than I can. I'm just a civilian I haven't been over.

       Well I know you don't like me but, there's your bulletin board members review of the episode. I got to admit when I watched the show I did think during a commercial break "I bet this show is going to have it's own thread on the flashpoint boards within ten minutes". I'm surprised but not surprised that it hasn't been mentioned much. The advertising for the show was very weak, as I said I never heard of the show until the day before it aired.

[kerosene 0]

I think they need to spend a little more money on it to do the battle scences justice, the show looks pretty cheap overall.

The character who smokes pot is a seperate character from the guy who talks about slitting the kids throat, ones black and the other white, I didn't really think he bragged about it either.

Mabye its a bad idea to make a show about an ongoing war, not wanting to offend anyone might make this show crap.

[Goeth 0]

Mabye its a bad idea to make a show about an ongoing war, not wanting to offend anyone might make this show crap.

If i remember correctly mr.Bush stated long ago that war is over and such

[Commando84 0]

realized today that michael moores documentary was sucky and childish but had 1 or two pointers there..

today i saw why we fight and it was really amazing .. its all about the money and some special agenda that not many know about

For all those interested in understanding a little better the motives behind wars in the last 60 years , this movie will show you different points of view about "why we fight" (the original title of a US military propaganda of the past). In the meantime, you'll also see a lot of facts (yes, unquestionable facts) backing up the presumption yielded at the last minutes... that Capitalism is winning over Democracy. Patriotism, Militarism, Corruption, False democracy, Lies, etc, etc. We are used to those. This time, the topic is the military-industrial complex, something even a Republican (Dwight Eisenhower) warned about.

[Wilco 944]

To anyone who thinks uparmoured HUMVEEs aren't worth it.

M1114 hit a Ball-Bearing IED.

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/7889/mpied091415pr.jpg

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/4058/mpied082136ae.jpg

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/7197/mpied071223my.jpg

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/4784/mpied067310ko.jpg

Soldiers inside.

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/6097/mpied103513au.jpg

Anyone smart enough would know that that would have ripped through a non-armoured HUMVEE.

edit: and anyone who posts here should know that there is a file size limit for images. RW

edit: Yes sir. WL

[red oct 2]

what kind of body armor are those 3 soldiers wearing in the last picture? i've been noticing soldiers wearing it a lot. looks pretty heavy.

[Wilco 944]

what kind of body armor are those 3 soldiers wearing in the last picture? i've been noticing soldiers wearing it a lot. looks pretty heavy.

Extra shoulder kevlar additions, mainly for limbs hanging out and whatnot. I think its relatively light.

[theavonlady 2]

what kind of body armor are those 3 soldiers wearing in the last picture? i've been noticing soldiers wearing it a lot. looks pretty heavy.

Extra shoulder kevlar additions, mainly for limbs hanging out and whatnot.  I think its relatively light.

Help Soldier's Angels.

[Balschoiw 0]

Who´s been first ? The hen or the egg ?

Quote[/b] ]U.S.-led troops in Iraq part of problem - UK's Straw

By Irene Klotz

LONDON (Reuters) - The presence of British and U.S. troops in Iraq is fuelling the Sunni-led insurgency which has killed hundreds of people, British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw said in comments published on Tuesday.

In an interview with Britain's Financial Times newspaper, Straw said it was crucial Iraq's draft constitution was ready by a mid-August deadline to pave the way for a troop withdrawal.

"The more certainty you have on that (the constitution), the more you can have a programme for the draw-down of troops which is important for the Iraqis," he said.

"Because -- unlike in Afghanistan -- although we are part of the security solution there, we are also part of the problem."

The Iraqi panel drawing up the constitution has come under intense U.S. pressure to submit a draft on time.

The Iraqi government and its U.S. backers see the constitution as a key part of any democratic process and hope it can help defuse the two-year-old insurgency and allow U.S. and British troops to withdraw sooner.

U.S. General George Casey said last month he expected troop cuts after a referendum on a new constitution due in October and an election for a new leader in December.

Casey made a similar prediction earlier this year, but U.S. officials have avoided suggesting a timetable since violence worsened sharply after the new government took power in April.

Britain, Washington's main ally in the 2003 war to topple former President Saddam Hussein, has about 8,500 troops in Iraq, based mainly in the south.

US led troops part of the problem in Iraq

It´s all a bit confusing if you keep in mind that:

1. the insurgency was started by the invasion of Iraq

2. the invasion made Iraq the terrorist training ground number 1

3. the coalition proclaimed many, many times to calm down the country

4. the coalition promised many, many times to rebuild the country

5. the coalition declared a soon victory of the insurgents (last throws)

6. the coalition killed more civillians than the insurgents

7. the coalition works within a questionable frame of law

8. the coalition now wants to withdraw from Iraq with nothing then removal of Saddam achieved

9. The coalition finances it´s favourite candidates while it keeps opposing ones short on money

10. the coalition now puts the burden they caused on the people they claim to have liberated

It´s some very funny thinking these days but this had to be expected.

[quicksand 0]

Just a reminder.While most have grown sick and tired of debating the war in Iraq for the last 3 years,just because people are fed up with it,it has only faded out in our minds..on the ground it rages on and it's fiercer and deadlier each day.

20 Marines killed in Haditha combat

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - Fourteen U.S. Marines and a civilian interpreter were killed Wednesday in western Iraq, the U.S. command said.

The Marines, assigned to Regimental Combat Team 2, 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force (Forward), were killed in action early Wednesday when their vehicle was hit by an improvised explosive device, the military said. One Marine was also wounded in the attack.

The incident occurred during combat operations just outside Haditha, which is 140 miles northwest of Baghdad.

Names of those killed are being withheld pending notification of next of kin and release by the     Department of Defense.

The latest losses come on the heels of the deaths of seven U.S. Marines in combat two days ago in the volatile Euphrates Valley of western Iraq. The American deaths come as the Bush administration is talking about handing more security responsibility to the Iraqis and drawing down forces next year.

At least 39 American service members have been killed in Iraq since July 24 — all but two in combat. In addition, the Iraqi Defense Ministry said that since the beginning of April, more than 2,700 Iraqis — about half of them civilians — had been killed in insurgency-related incidents.

Six of the seven Marines killed Monday died near Haditha, and the seventh was killed in a suicide bombing in Hit to the southeast. The extremist Ansar al-Sunnah Army claimed responsibility for killing the six Marines.

Masked gunmen showed up in the Haditha public market Monday afternoon displaying helmets, flak jackets and other equipment they said were taken from the bodies of the dead Marines.

Fighting has intensified in recent weeks in Haditha, Hit and other dusty towns along the Euphrates River as American forces step up efforts to seal off the approaches to the Syrian border and prevent foreign fighters from entering the country.

The Marines launched a series of operations in the region in May and June in hopes of pacifying the area so that Iraqi military and civilian forces could assume effective control. But the insurgents have proven resilient.

[walker 0]

Hi All

Sadly the situation in Iraq seems to be deterioating again. 14 Marines were killed by a roadside bomb.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn....77.html

The commanders on the ground need to tell TBA they need to increase resources.

Sadly walker

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

The worst thing is, and sadly this can be said in a few words, "I dont see a trend"!

I dont see any developments, may they be positive or negative. The coalition casualties improved a little in July, now we see them rise up again pretty steadily. The number of attacks does not decrease, the number of civillian casualties does not decrease, the only thing that realy does become less is the amount of media coverage. I realy cant recall the last interview I saw on TV with iraqi people on the streets. So where the hell is public opinion heading towards in iraq. What is the situation like right now? All very frustrating.

[Necromancer- 0]

Fascinating... I encountered this on a blog..

http://www.publiuspundit.com/?p=1409

True emancipation in Iraq?

[quicksand 0]

Elusive sniper saps US morale in Baghdad

Quote[/b] ]They have never seen Juba. They hear him, but by then it's too late: a shot rings out and another US soldier slumps dead or wounded.

There is never a follow-up shot, never a chance for US forces to identify the origin, to make the hunter the hunted. He fires once and vanishes.

Juba is the nickname given by American forces to an insurgent sniper operating in southern Baghdad. They do not know his appearance, nationality or real name, but they know and fear his skill.

"He's good," said Specialist Travis Burress (22) a sniper with the 1-64 battalion based in Camp Rustamiyah. "Every time we dismount I'm sure everyone has got him in the back of their minds. He's a serious threat to us."

Gun attacks occasionally pepper the battalion's foot and mounted patrols, but the single crack of what is thought to be a Tobuk sniper rifle inspires particular dread.

Since February, the killing of at least two members of the battalion and the wounding of six more have been attributed to Juba. Some think it is also he that has picked off up to a dozen other soldiers.

In a war marked by sectarian bombings and civilian casualties, Juba is unusual in targeting only coalition troops, a difficult quarry protected by armoured vehicles, body armour and helmets.

He waits for soldiers to dismount, or stand up in a Humvee turret, and aims for gaps in their body armour, the lower spine, ribs or above the chest. He has killed from 200m away.

"It was the perfect shot," the battalion commander, Lieutenant Colonel Kevin Farrell, said of one incident. "Blew out the spine.

"We have different techniques to try to lure him out, but he is very well trained and very patient. He doesn't fire a second shot."

Some in the battalion want marksmen to occupy rooftops overlooking supply routes, Juba's hunting ground, to try to put him in the cross-hairs.

"It would be a pretty shitty assignment because he's good," said Spc Burress. "I think it's a sniper's job to get a sniper, and it'd probably take all of us to get him."

American snipers operate in teams of at least two people, a shooter and a spotter, the latter requiring more experience since he must use complicated formulae to calculate factors such as wind strength and drag coefficients.

Some worry that Juba is on his way to becoming a resistance hero, acclaimed by those Iraqis who distinguish between "good" insurgents, who target only Americans, and "bad" insurgents who harm civilians.

The insurgent grapevine celebrates an incident last June when a four-strong marine scout sniper team was killed in Ramadi, all with shots to the head.

Unlike their opponents, US snipers in Baghdad seldom get to shoot. Typically they hide on rooftops and use thermal imaging and night vision equipment to monitor areas. If there is suspicious activity, they summon aircraft or ground patrols.

"We are professionals. There is a line between a maniac with a gun and a sniper," said Mike (31) a corporal with a reconnaissance sniper platoon who did not want to his surname to be used.

He spoke during a 24-hour mission on a roof during which his team ate junk food and urinated into a bottle. During daylight they lay on the ground, immobile, to avoid being seen. "It's not a glamorous life," he said.

There was no sign of Juba, who tended to operate further east, but the team spotted mortar flashes and fed the coordinates to base.

Mike said he had shot 14 people in Somalia, three in Afghanistan and one in Iraq. "It's not like you expect it to be, an emotional high. You just think about the wind, the range, then it's over with."

Sniper fire is only one of the threats for an American military that has suffered heavy losses this week.

On Thursday another soldier was killed in Ramadi, west of Baghdad, adding to the 21 who died in attacks on Monday and Wednesday.

Roadside bombs account for most of the lives lost, and the size and design of the explosions has led investigators to conclude that the insurgents are learning bombmaking methods from other terrorist organisations.

Thursday's New York Times reported that the techniques used by Hezbollah in Lebanon were increasingly being seen in roadside bombs in Iraq.

An unnamed senior American commander quoted by the paper said bombs using shaped charges closely matched the bombs that Hezbollah used against Israel.

"Our assessment is that they are probably going off to 'school' to learn how to make bombs that can destroy armoured vehicles," he said. - Guardian Unlimited

In my opinion this is what the Iraqi resistance should have been all about from the very begining(and actually was for a short while).The rebels who sticked to roadside bombs and ambushes should had never let themselves overshadowed by terror groups such as the petty Zarqawi led one.

It's kind of sad to notice in retrospective that Saddam was the only one that tried to seize the oportunity in turning the insurgency into a national movement of eliberation.He always asked in his mesages from the period he was in hiding that no mather if you are a Shi'ite,Kurd of Sunni in front of the occupation you should all unite.

A majority of Iraqis still support attacks on coallition forces.A civillian population will always stand bt the side of the one that protects it's life and freedom.The US occupation prooved deficient in both,the Iraqi forces aren't able to protect themselves and the majority of the insurgency chose to tolerate the minority that is on a rampage of killing innocent civillians,morever it let that minority become it's voice.

The lesser evil of them all is clearly the path of the Iraqi government but only if the manages to draw in the Sunnis which is quite hard to invision when they blend in with everything the insurgency stands for

[The Frenchman 0]

so noone watched it? Great!    Thanks!

I would have appreciated some feedback!

I watched it. I thought it was pretty good, though I liked this weeks episode more. For example:

Quote[/b] ]<span style='color:white'>How they showed the one legged soldier dealing with the after effects of the war. You don't see that too often in movies/shows.</span>

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]Fascinating... I encountered this on a blog..

http://www.publiuspundit.com/?p=1409

True emancipation in Iraq?

It is fascinating, though I wish there was more info than the short blurb on that site. Sadly I'm sure she'll be killed soon. Probably captrued and decapitated for Al Jazeera to the applause of world.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/08/12/iraq.main/index.html

Quote[/b] ]WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A top general in charge of logistics in Iraq said that although roadside bomb attacks on his convoys have doubled over last the year, fewer people have been killed or hurt.

Brig. Gen. Yves Fontaine, commander of the Army's 1st Corps Support Command, said that the number of casualties has dropped because his vehicles are better protected.

Fontaine said the number of roadside bombs -- which the military refers to as improvised explosive devices, or IEDs -- is up "100 percent" since last year.

"We have seen an increase in the use of IEDs on our convoys. And our main threat is the IED for the logistics convoys coming from Kuwait, Jordan and Turkey, and then going to the Baghdad area. So the increase has been to about 30 a week," Fontaine said in a teleconference from Iraq.

He said the command continues to "develop tactics, techniques and procedures that have mitigated the effect" of roadside and car bombs.

Fontaine said that because of armor improvements, "the casualties have decreased significantly, even though the IED attacks have increased significantly. So now our soldiers are safe in their Humvees and their trucks, and they walk out of the incidents when the incident occurs."

He said that all of the Humvees used to escort convoys have been up-armored, or reinforced, to level one and two -- "the best up-armoring that we can provide these young soldiers."

Most of the command's heavy equipment transporters are at level one and two and the military is working to improve the armor on its fleet of tractor trailers as well, Fontaine said.

"Bottom line, all our trucks, all are up-armored when they go out the gate to different levels, which protects our soldiers."

When asked where the attacks are most increasing, Fontaine made an apparent reference to the Sunni Triangle, which flares west and north of Baghdad. The insurgency has much support in the Sunni Arab heartland.

"The triangle is the area where this occurs. We know the south of Iraq is fairly safe, fairly secure. As you enter the triangle, this is the area where IEDs occur the most. So nothing has changed as far as that's concerned."

Translation: Insurgency is still going on.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]The worst thing is, and sadly this can be said in a few words, "I dont see a trend"!

I dont see any developments, may they be positive or negative. The coalition casualties improved a little in July, now we see them rise up again pretty steadily. The number of attacks does not decrease, the number of civillian casualties does not decrease, the only thing that realy does become less is the amount of media coverage. I realy cant recall the last interview I saw on TV with iraqi people on the streets. So where the hell is public opinion heading towards in iraq. What is the situation like right now? All very frustrating.

Exactly.

the situation is endlesly spiraling out of control ,conflict is continualy escalating ,casualty's mounting in greater speeds.this year several month's presented a new record in US army deathtoll in Iraq.The political situation is equaly deterioating.

Media? They probably don't dare to even come to Iraq anymore ,and with good cause i reckon.

And it comes down to the question ,where does this end?Withought fundamental changes the situation is only going to worsen  ,and attempts for changes like with the elections have proven to hae had few effect.How long canthis conflict escelate before it comes to much? 15 years?

[quicksand 0]

Iraq Leaders Consider Extending Deadline

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - Leaders of Iraq's factions considered extending Monday's deadline for a new constitution as last-minute talks produced no agreement on a federated state and other divisive issues, despite U.S. pressure against any delay.

Early Monday, Shiite and Kurdish leaders signaled they were prepared to submit the draft to parliament Monday evening — even if they had to do so over Sunni Arab objections.

That risked a backlash among Sunni Arabs, who form the core of the insurgency, which could undermine the American goal of using the constitution to lure away Sunnis from the insurgency.

With stakes so high, public positions among the factions changed by the hour. As Monday's meeting time for the National Assembly drew near, Shiite and Kurdish officials were considering asking parliament to extend the deadline.

The United States, which has pressured Iraqi officials to meet the Monday deadline, hopes the constitution will serve as a major step in luring Sunnis away from the insurgency so that American and other foreign troops can begin to go home next year.

Shiite lawmaker Hassan al-Sunnaid said earlier Monday there were "no deadlocks" and the draft would be submitted to the National Assembly at 6 p.m. (10 a.m. EDT). Moments later, Sunni Arab members Kamal Hamdoun and Haseeb Aref said no agreement had been reached on federalism and other divisive issues that have blocked an agreement for weeks.

With al-Sunnaid's statements clearly too optimistic, a lawmaker from the biggest Shiite party, Jalaladin al-Shagir, said political leaders were leaning toward extending the deadline for up to a month.

Another option expressed was to ignore Sunni objections, submit the document to parliament as planned and try to win over the Sunni public before an Oct. 15 referendum on the charter.

"I personally support postponing" parliamentary approval until Sept. 15, Aref said Monday. "I don't expect them to hand the draft today because there is no unanimity."

Sunni Arabs have asked that the issue of federalism be put off until next year. Shiites and Kurds, the two other major groups in the country, are pushing for autonomous regions in the southern and northern parts of Iraq, but Sunnis fear the proposal could split Iraq.

Sunnis also oppose other proposals endorsed by the Shiites and Kurds, including proposals for a special status for the Shiite clerical leadership and a formula for distributing oil wealth and dual citizenship.

But Shiites and Kurds dominate the 275-member National Assembly — as well as the constitutional committee — and could ram through the charter over Sunni Arab objects. Other options include amending the interim constitution to extend the deadline or dissolving parliament.

Sunnis — who boycotted the Jan. 30 vote for an interim parliament — could defeat the constitution in the national referendum. If two-thirds of the voters in three provinces vote against the constitution, it would be defeated. Sunni Arabs form the majority in at least four provinces.

Sunni clerics have urged followers to vote against any constitution that could lead to the breakup of the country

"It looks like all the agreements are being made only by the Kurds and the Shiites without even asking our opinion," Sunni Arab official Saleh al-Mutlaq said Sunday. "I believe the draft is going to be presented tomorrow even if it is not finished, with or without our approval."

An extension would require approval of two-thirds of parliament and the president and his two deputies. U.S. officials have pressured Iraqis to stick to Monday's deadline.

American officials applied pressure to resolve differences on that and other issues before Monday's deadline — despite the risks of alienating the Sunnis.

"The Iraqis tell me that they can finish it and they will finish it tomorrow," U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad said Sunday in a televised interview.

Khalilzad said "a lot of American blood and American treasure has been spent here" — a point that he had made "abundantly clear to my Iraqi interlocutors."

The U.S. military said Sunday that five soldiers had been killed in roadside bombings over the weekend, and at least 11 Iraqis were killed in scattered violence across the country. A grave with 30 bodies was also found by Iraqi commandos in southern Baghdad.

Violence continued Monday. In Khalis, 50 miles north of Baghdad, gunmen killed three people in separate shootings, including a municipal council member and his driver, police said Monday. Four others were wounded.

Police said gunmen killed three Iraqi soldiers and wounded three others at a checkpoint in Buhriz, 35 miles north of Baghdad.

In west Baghdad, an insurgent ambush killed one Iraqi soldier and injured another, police Capt. Talib Thamir said. A mortar struck the rear courtyard of the Interior Ministry on Monday, wounding five troops and three civilians, police Lt. Col. Fouad Assad said.

In Baqouba, 35 miles northeast of Baghdad, the body of a government food program worker was found, police said. In the nearby village of Khirnabat, police said Monday a roadside bomb had killed one civilian the day before.

It reall surpasses me as to what the big deal is.They can't agree on the constitution,they should take as long as they need to until all the parties reach a solution that benefits all communities.A rushed out constitution that discriminates the Sunnis will embolden the insurgency much more then a powerful one that exceeded the deadline.I just can't imagine insurgnets suddenly bursting in joy "Abu,Allahu Akbar the constitution has been delayed a day.Yes,it's true brothers now we can win this war and shall strike the servents of the cross tenfold from now onward.