The Iraq thread 4

[Thunderbird 0]

Thanks,

Quote[/b] ]26 non-U.S. military forces

I haven't expected to see so much of countries represented over there at the begining of the conflict.

and even surprised to see such nations over there.

Quote[/b] ]

El Salvador

Azerbaijan

Latvia

Mongolia

Albania

Bosnia & Herzegovina

Macedonia

Kazakhstan

...

what an unecessary engagement, it would be better that they'd spend their money in more useful ways...

Regards

TB84

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]

what an unecessary engagement, it would be better that they'd spend their money in more useful ways...

Assume soldiers as goods. The countries get money and/or financial benefits for their contribution of troops from the US.

[Ironsight 1]

However at least Spain and NZ along with several other nations have already withdrawn and Ukraine and Poland are about to do the same. There also has been strong speculation in the UK as well if I am not mistaken.

Dutch have withdrawn after the time we promissed to spend there. We were in control of Al-Muthana province. Aussies took it over from us and is one of the most stable area's in Iraq however we did lost 2 soldiers over there.

Norway decided to pull out Iraq this week too I believe.

Quote[/b] ]El Salvador

Wonder if they left together with the Spanish since the soldiers there were under Spanish command.

Quote[/b] ]Assume soldiers as goods. The countries get money and/or financial benefits for their contribution of troops from the US.

Mostly military support especially the smaller contributors like Estonia, El Salvador, Honduras and Latvia who recieved Humvee's and trucks for their support

[Scorpio 0]

It's a good real-time training 'exercise' for the troops themselves too.

[EiZei 0]

It's a good real-time training 'exercise' for the troops themselves too.

Nope, usually the "coalition of the billing"-members send around 30-100 soldiers, just a drop in the bucket for them. Not to mention these usually are some specialists sent to some less dangerous areas in order to avoid forcing the sender to withdraw their forces in face of public opinion.

Even the largest contributors after the UK have around 3000 personnel deployed which is by no means a large amount.

[Scorpio 0]

I should've put a smilie after that.

Still though, even though most of them were specialists already and were few in number, I think they still gained some experience in desert-terrain operations...or something.

Anyway, Saddam's lawyers suspend trial work.

[harley 3 1185 0]

Does anyone have a rough idea of the percentage of voting Sunnis who actually voted "No" to the Constitution?  As far as I can ascertain, the number of Sunnis who voted to reject the Constitution was smaller than those who wanted it accepted, but I can't find any definate figures on that.

EDIT: Some really stupid grammar and syntax errors...

[EiZei 0]

Does anyone have a rough idea of the percentage of voting Sunnis actually voted "No" for the Constitution?  As far as I can ascertain, the number of Sunnis who wouldn't to reject the Constitution was smaller than thoe who wanted it accepted, but I can't find any definate figures on that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....s_table

At best a 51% majority in sunni provinces. Al anbar (read: fallujah, sunni triange) had 96% no vote even, not exactly a surprise . If the veto had only required single majority the three needed provinces would have certainly been met.

On the other hand shias and kurds seem overwhelmingly in favour of this, some provinces had more than 99% yes votes.

Quote[/b] ]

Anyway, Saddam's lawyers suspend trial work.

I don't get it, what good will killing saddam's lawyers do? It only delays the inevitable and it's not like they are going to let him walk on some technicality.

[harley 3 1185 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Anyway, Saddam's lawyers suspend trial work.

I don't get it, what good will killing saddam's lawyers do? It only delays the inevitable and it's not like they are going to let him walk on some technicality.

[ ] people do [ ] things. You can insert a host of different perjorative comments on the state of the perpetrators' minds in these boxes.

e.g. [Anarchy-motivated] people do [stupid] things.

[Scorpio 0]

I don't get it, what good will killing saddam's lawyers do? It only delays the inevitable and it's not like they are going to let him walk on some technicality.

Yeah. I want to see part II of Saddam's trial sooner. Finish the trial, then kill the lawyers!

[edit] My home province, Dohuk, was the second most in favour for the referendum. And we have our own airline. Yay!

[EiZei 0]

Seems that Italy (the third largest member of the coalition) is starting to show signs of pulling out:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1605037,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

John Hooper in Rome

Monday October 31, 2005

The Guardian

Silvio Berlusconi, one of George Bush's closest allies, says he repeatedly tried to talk the US president out of invading Iraq, in comments to be broadcast today.

In the television interview, which goes out on the day the Italian prime minister flies to Washington to meet Mr Bush, Mr Berlusconi says he even enlisted the help of the Libyan leader, Colonel Muammar Gadafy, in behind-the-scenes efforts to stop America going to war.

"I have never been convinced war was the best way to succeed in making a country democratic and extract it from an albeit bloody dictatorship," he says. "I tried on several occasions to convince the American president not to wage war."

His version of events, recounted in an interview with the La7 private TV station, with excerpts reported by the Apcom and Ansa news agencies at the weekend, was backed by his deputy, Gianfranco Fini, leader of the former neo-fascist party, who said: "We tried right up to the end to persuade Bush and Blair not to launch a military attack."

Mr Berlusconi said one of the "other ways and other solutions" he had tried was a "joint action" with Colonel Gadafy, whose country is a former Italian colony.

Coming after Lewis Libby's indictment capped a crisis week for the Bush administration, Mr Berlusconi's remarks will be seen by many in Washington as treacherous. Italy's prime minister is standing for re-election in just over five months and polls indicate that his support for Mr Bush is a major handicap. He became closely identified with Mr Bush soon after coming to office in 2001 and avoided criticism of US policy in the run-up to the war. In March 2003 he told parliament the use of force against Iraq was legitimate and Italy could not abandon the Americans "in their fight against terrorism".

Yesterday Mr Berlusconi's aides played down the remarks, pointing to two earlier occasions on which he had alluded to "doubts" and "reservations" about the invasion. Il Giornale, a newspaper owned by the Berlusconi family, quoted the prime minister as saying in November 2003 he had "expressed disagreement with Bush on the military action in Iraq".

Holy hell, when somebody bullheaded as Berlusconi starts distancing himself it makes you start to wonder what the hell Blair is doing.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

BTW, has anyone of you seen the footage of US soldiers in Iraq shooting at a dog? It was pretty disgusting, the dog just didnt die, the soldiers shot at it several times and you simply heard the poor animal screaming in pain, but they were to stupid to kill it. It is images like this that make me get realy angry right now. How can people loose all their emotions like that? Sad but true, for me this was one of the most brutal scenes I have seen so far, it shows the total loss of human heart.

PM me if you want to get a link. I will check your age beforehand. And trust me, even if you are an adult, your heart will hurt when watching it! But it is a good lesson to learn. War doesnt make HEROES! Hell it doesnt!!!!  

the soldiers comment

Hi my name is M. D. formaly of A TRP 1-10 CAV 4ID and while in Iraq we had a sport of killing dogs whenever the Iraqis werent shooting us. So when I shot this one at about 50 yards with my M4 and it ran yelping to lower ground, we had to finish it so my friends and I went to it and started shooting it. I ve never seen a dog take as many shots to the head at least 4 as this one did and then after we thought it was dead we dug a hole and when I picked it up with the shovel it came back to life, so we shot it a couple more times....its pretty funny."

Funny huh? Well Fxxx you!

[harley 3 1185 0]

Funny. There were documented instances in World Wars one and two of battle-hardened Officers crying like babies when they had to shoot a horse or a mule to put it out of their misery. I know I would. And being 4ID, isn't that a regular formation?

Not that I want to ever see such a piece of filth, but where did this story come up? If it gives away the link, then PM me would you AS?

[denoir 0]

Yeah, a bunch of Danes were court martialed for doing the same thing in Kosovo. They however went so far to shoot dogs in people's back yards (i.e not stray dogs but pets).

This is not at all that uncommon in war. You have stressed out, nervous people (mostly kids) armed to the teeth and with longer periods of time where they have nothing to do. You can't just switch off from combat mode where you fight for your life and normal operation.

Quote[/b] ]War doesnt make HEROES! Hell it doesnt!!!!

Of course it does - and it's mostly the same mechanism. Having people trying to kill you on a regular basis fucks your brain up. The results of this can be extraordinary bravery or extraordinary cruelty or something completely different. Point being, your brain doesn't work the way it should and the environment you're in is so surreal that most traditional human social values break down. The effects vary from person to person, but the principle stands. It can be effectively controlled by strict military discipline and simply by experience.

This is in no way unique for American soldiers, but unfortunately the situation in Iraq is such that many of the units deployed are B or C grade units with piss-poor supervision and discipline.

Still, I think it is pretty important to show these things. Not to show that the Iraq war in particular is wrong but the war in general is a terrible thing. Perhaps if enough of such things are shown people will lose their unrealistic romantic ideas of what war is, and perhaps then they'll think twice before starting one.

[harley 3 1185 0]

As far as I can tell, the 1-10th Cavalry of which M.D. was a member, was part of the offensive at the start of Operation Iraqi Freedom (2nd Bde, 4ID) in March 2003. It was then stationed around Tikrit and participated in the capture of Saddam Hussein in December of that year. Shortly afterwards, it was rotated back to the United States, and is only just now being deployed back to the Gulf.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, Denoir, but there's not too much excuse for volunteer soldiers at a time of comparitive quiet in the country. Back then there was still a glimmer of optimism. Not an excuse to kill dogs.

[Jinef 2]

To back up Denoirs argument:

"The only sane reaction to an insane situation is insanity" - Joseph Heller

Men lay down their lives for some vague notion of country and no one seems to mind. Men lose their minds and are rewarded with medals. The whole notion is just insane, to take another human's life and possibly die for such trivial values. Yet propaganda persuades us dying for your country is the most honourable thing you can do.

Then we look at Muslim extremists who are blowing them up for similar values, yet instead of seeing it as heroic acts of bravery we think "What a bunch of fucking loonies."

Quite absurd isn't it how logical it is to be opposed to the logically correct values. It is up to your own logic and feelings to decide what is right.

Are you happy to kill your next door neighbour? If so, join the Marine Corps!

[harley 3 1185 0]

Hmm, Joseph Heller was drafted. His hero, good 'ole Yossarian, was drafted. Hawkeye Pierce and his creator, Richard Hornberger were drafted. That would be their "insane situation".

But when you volunteer in the full knowledge that you may be putting your life on the line, you either fall out or sign on.

All I can say is the U.S. Army needs to start going for a stricter Psyche test. Like I said, if this s*** was going on when it was relatively quiet, something gone wrong there.

[Jinef 2]

If the Army did have a stricter psychiatric examination they would be out of people pretty soon

Also the equivalent of drafting nowadays is join the Army or go in prison Or even more alluring, join the Army and get college money so you can be an astronaut, or a doctor.

If you all get so squirmy over normal stuff like this, I hope you never know what goes on with special forces. A lot of people on this Forum hail special forces as demi-gods walking this earth. I would not touch that job with a barge pole. As our resident SF operatives like Bals should know, it requires a detachment of conciousness to do the shit they do. I myself probably couldn't do it.

Edit: My retarded spelling.

[harley 3 1185 0]

Yes, but senseless killing is not a trait of a member of Special Forces - any killing they do as professionals is for a reason.  Last I heard the rules of engagement didn't have "If a member of the canine species is sighted, alow him to close to 50 yards, then open fire." in them.

Yes, I know that the military is a necessary step for those in America who wish to go to college using taxpayers money as a needed boost.  I'm quite sure that a few of those self-same taxpayers wouldn't want their money earnt by people shooting at dogs instead of doing their job.

Getting "squirmy" over it is not the point.  There are better ways of taking out your stress than shooting someone's dog.  There's a principle involved here.  If they can callously shoot dogs, sooner or later they could shoot kids, or whoever is happening to annoy them that day.

[Jinef 2]

Well senseless killing is the whole nature of war. Yes SF people kill people for a specific reason however overall it is senseless, it is for some vague ideal. They need to do shit which is horribly against any normal person's capabilities for reasons beyond comprehension.

As if I needed to make it any clearer I will give you an example. As a member of British special forces in the 1970s it is very likely you could have been asked to kill whole families in Northern Ireland, there was a period when the Army clamped down on the IRA and began knocking off leaders. However if you knock off the daddy, the son will soon be appearing with an Armalite. So you remove as much of the living family tree as possible.

If a dog stumbles upon a SF group on deep recce in enemy territory it is a compromise threat so they would kill it.

Same as:

If a bright eyed little girl with a pretty necklace stumbles upon a SF group on deep recce in enemy territory it is a compromise threat so they would kill it.

Barking and speaking is the same thing. However whereas I would look at the dog as a dog and the child as a child. To a SF operative they are compromise threats. I would prefer to be killed myself than kill a child ... period.

So, in summary, the truth is SF soldiers do kill people and animals senselessly, same as regular infantry, it is not horrific or unusual. It is expected in war. It is also expected that soldiers have trouble re-intergrating into civvy life after being in war, what is normality after such contrast of situations?

As for better ways to take off stress, maybe a nice game of table tennis? I think you should write to the secretary of defence. "Dear Sir, instead of shooting household pets could you instruct your soldiers to play recreational sports instead. Thanks."

I reinforce my point:

"Insanity is the only sane reaction to an insane situation"

A 'professional' army is a utopian ideal. Any army is today just the same as it was 2000 years ago.

The consequences:

18-21 year olds losing their innocence so early. Does not anyone here crave childhood where life was so simple? All you did was play and think about being grown up. Now your grown up and people expect you to kill other humans, making love is now fucking, drugs are just a way to relieve the monotony of life and you hate the human race. You care for nothing but your own pleasure and belongings. Fuck politics, fuck country. You could die tommorow anyway. The world is going to shit, the country is going to shit, immigrants should fuck off back to their own country, your parents shouldn't have had you and you want to climb a tower and start ending other's misery as well...

Welcome to the effects of today's culture. Made worse by the self justification of attrocities committed every day and forced upon us. The people who are more sensitive to it become psycotic, the people who are less sensitive live their numb little lives and others profit from it.

The trick is to realise what is entering your cranium and to start thinking about it. You are always bombarded with information and opinions, some of them good and some of them bad, it is up to you to work out what is right. The easy way out is to sign up for the army, or religion, or maybe a political party and then agree with what they say.

Either way, trust in me that I am not pushing a political point. I am not trying to elect a party, I am simply trying to get you using that grey blubbery stuff sitting inside your heads.

Moderators here you go, too much truth again ...  

Edit: Clarification, I was babbling.

[harley 3 1185 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes, but senseless killing is not a trait of a member of Special Forces - any killing they do as professionals is for a reason

Thank you for totally highlighting what I had thought I put succinctly here (no sarcasm there, I mean it).

I know all too well the meaning of "compromise threats" and agree with every point you put forward. However, SF do their "senseless" killing as part of a greater plan.

As far as I'm concerned, if those guys in Iraq are shooting dogs for kicks, that qualifies them for a section 8, and they can get out of the damn army instead of messing their minds up even further before they start blaming the army for it. They weren't forced to join the army. It's not like Vietnam where quarter of a million teenagers were shipped over there a year against their will. If ever a case of randomly shooting innocent creatures was justified it was there. But today, there is no justification. This may be a sign of the state of American society today. I sure hope not.

It would seem, that High Schools in America should teach a class on what qualities you need to join the army apart from a desire to go to college and the words "U.S.A." ringing in your ears.

I personally would like to hear any serving members of the armed forces views on this, should any be out there.

[Jinef 2]

Ok, points understood.

Unfortunately I doubt it qualifies them for a section 8. The army would probably call it healthy :P They don't give a shit. As long as they are prepared to kill and die that is all they need. Anyway, too late for me to chat politics anymore.

[Tovarish 0]

...

Edit: Clarification, I was babbling.

That, sir, was the best post I have read in a very long time.

[chops 111]

There have also been instances of US soldiers driving around in Hummvees, breaking Coke bottles over the heads of Iraqi kids for fun. I posted a link in here a long time ago.

It seems to me like a massive cop out that "War is stressful, what do you expect" mentality, regarding this kind of disgraceful behaviour. Big tough bad arse soldiers should have the trainning to deal with stress, or have the sense to seek help if they can't.

But I guess things have chnaged for the better, in Iraq its Coke bottles over turbans and a bit of pest control. In Vietnam it was Mi Lai. I wonder how soon it was in the Vietnam war that 2000 US soldiers died? I imagine there wasn't the strong pro peace sentiment that's gathering pace now, so early in the Vietnam War.

[Commando84 0]

Damn jinef you're deep!

I think they are stressed and bored not a good combination.

also i think americans are even more against soldiers dying than during vietnam. In vietnam many more died before the protest i belive , i could be wrong but thats just my picture.

now there is 2000 dead and people are reacting, i dunno if the bush crew will be left next election.