The Iraq thread 4

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]Now if the Iraqis want to go ahead and introduce the death penalty (it is abolished for now) then it's their choice. I'm just saying that if they do, they will be viewed as savages by a significant portion of the civilized world. And that has consequences.

Like what? Already a lot of europeans dont like what they see as the puppet regime of Iraq and how Iraqis deal with their dictator is largely their business. I mean considering that a few months ago you were claiming that governments commenting on the corrupt election in Ukraine was an unjustified intrusion what right do you think our governments have to pass judgement on a countries treatment of its murderous dictator ?

(i cant help thinking that post WW2 Germans would have executed Hitler if possible yet i wouldnt have viewed them as savages because of it -despite their Eurovision entry-)

It does seem a little bit insane that leaders can start wars in which hundreds of thousands or millions die, they may torture their people at will but, when they are captured, executing them after careful investigation is beyond the pale.

I disagree with the death penalty on priciple but i can understand Iraqis wanting to see Saddam Hussein tried and executed (in this case its hard to see how he could be innocent or that human error could come into it in ). What Iraqi has not been affected by his reign? I hope they find themselves able to avoid killing but if not i would not view them as 'savages' as a result (though i agree that it would set a bad example to the world).

[denoir 0]

I mean considering that a few months ago you were claiming that governments commenting on the corrupt election in Ukraine was an unjustified intrusion what right do you think our governments have to pass judgement on a countries treatment of its murderous dictator ?

As I said, don't confuse tolerance with approval.

Quote[/b] ]It does seem a little bit insane that leaders can start wars in which hundreds of thousands or millions die, they may torture their people at will but, when they are captured, executing them after careful investigation is beyond the pale.

It's not a question of not hurting Saddam. It's a question of the Iraqi government killing its citizens.

Quote[/b] ]though i agree that it would set a bad example to the world.

Now, why would you think that would be? Care to elaborate?

Quote[/b] ]Eurovision

Yeah on the topic of lack of civilization... Every year around May, one is ashamed to be European. Talk about "crimes against humanity".

To conclude: ban death penalty and Eurovision

[chops 111]

Ace Combat your logic seems to be based on an eye for an eye, kill you get killed, right?

But where does it stop? Somebody has to kill Saddam, that just adds one more crime to the list. If it's wrong for Saddam to kiil people, it's wrong to kill Saddam. Keep him alive and show how you're far more civilized than his kind.

"Killing is wrong so must be killed"

"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind"

-Ghandi

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]...ALSO to some extent extends his pardon in the hereafter after all if the offended is no more angry at him why should god be?

Very dangerous rationale Acecombat.  Religious extremists also claim to understand how God thinks.  Yes one way to rationalize capital punishment (especially in regards to legal systems inspired by Shariat law) is to say that it is a test on human beings to give them a choice between revenge and mercy.   However, if this is the case, then why do we not have in Shariat law the choice to give in to other carnal desires such as sexual desires?   When revenge killing is officially sanctioned, it is one factor that influences how people behave in society.  America also has capital punishment.  Are we civilized?  I would say no.  Rather we glorify violence and glorify revenge.  

We are not much different then the Islamic nations we demonize such as Iran.

However does it mean that revenge killings can't happen in societies that do not have capital punishment?  No.  However it is one factor that reduces the instances of violence because killing is seen as wrong no matter what except in perhaps matters of self-defense...which is where war comes in.    I have NEVER said that revenge killing by Iraqi insurgents was right.  I said that I could understand their feelings of revenge and why they believe it is right to fight the American occupation force especially when they have lost loved ones.  

However I've also said, that there are much better non-violent ways to kick out the Americans that would cause vastly less pain and suffering to the Iraqi people and would unite them rather then divide them.

Revenge is a deep human emotion.  Religion also creates very very deep human emotions.  Combine the two into Jihad and you have an unstoppable homicidal force that becomes ego to the extreme in the belief that they are the sword of Allah and that their cause is sanctioned in the eyes of Allah and that all those who oppose are the enemies of Allah.  Its as if they think they know the mind of Allah which is why your above statement was alarming to me.  

It is not surprising to me that Turks have abandoned capital punishment.  Of coarse the primary reason was to get into the EU.  But also I believe they began to realize that it really did not contribute to their society.   Europe, for all its problems, has come a LONG way since the end of WWII.

I think that the utter savagery of WWII did alot to snap them back into reality and do as much as possible to prevent such savagery from ever happening again.  But its still possible for such countries to revert such as what we saw in Yugoslavia.  But other European countries were VERY reluctant to get involved in that bloody conflict.  It took the US to really push them into action.  Even now many Europeans hate the US and their governments for partipating in that NATO/UN operation against the Serbs because of the many Serbs that died in the bombing campaign.  However in the end it paid off and I think most people would agree that it prevented further bloodshed.

But that is war.  And war IS very different from normal civil life.   War is the failure of civil rules.  It is the last resort.

Never should wartime behavior be accepted as valid behavior during peacetime.  

War should be seen as a necessary evil that should be prevented rather then glorified.  War like revenge are closely tied together.  It is I believe also a innate human trait...the urge to conquer, kill, and dominate the other to show the superiority of our tribe and insure the tribe's survival.

America is learning the hardway that war is not glorious.  There are certainly brief moments of glory, honor, and heroism.

But normally war is brutal, savage, insane, and horrific.

But back to the war againt the Serbs in Bosnia and Kosovo, yes it did stop the bloodshed temporarily at least.  

However capital punishment is not much of a deterant when its seen as something normal and widely accepted.  

If capital punishment was a deterant to murder, then Texas (where I live) would be the safest state in the United States.  And yet we have a very high crime rate and murder rate while innocent people have been wrongly executed.

Right now in Iraq, revenge is big part of what is fueling the war.  It is revenge often carried to extreme.  Many Muslims around the world call for revenge against the US not only for the Iraq invasion, but also for our support of Israel.  By such logic, all Americans are fair game.  It is in large part because of a cultural glorification of revenge and "honor".  "Shame" seems to have a big part in it also.  

To me one of the strongest forces in Islam to counter all this is the Sufi emphasis on self-reflection.  A constant monitoring of one's own nefs (carnal desires, ego, ect...) in order to fight the inner jihad of the soul.  Sadly Sufism does seem to be taught in most mainstream Sunni or Shi'a mosques.

Rather today it is revenge, punishment, and self-righteousness that is emphasized.   It is not by coincidence that these attitudes of revenge, punishment and self-righteousness are mirrored in conservative right-wing fundamentalist Christian churches and their followers.  These are the main voters and grass roots support networks that put the Bush administration into power.  

As for the simple logic of, "Taking one life=forfiture of your life".  This is dangerous logic.  What about multiple lives?  Should then his family be killed?    Its not simple math.

Did Saddam ever personally kill anyone?  

What were the circumstances if indeed he did or if he ordered someone to be executed personally?  Were those people trying to take his life?  

As for the millions of deaths at his hands you mentioned earlier...I'm assuming you mean the Iran/Iraq War.  By this logic then Bush also is responsible for hundreds of thousands of murders and must be put to death.  

When it all comes down to it, it is the gorlification and justification of the primal human urge for revenge killing.

For the human race to grow, these are things, along with other things like ethnocentrism and tribalism, that must ultimately go away or be seen as detrimental to the human race as a whole.

But it is very very very difficult because we are naturally competitive creatures who are incredibly efficient at destroying our own species in this quest of competitiveness and superiority.   Whether it be Islam or capitalism... most of the human race is busy competing against each other in some form or another.   Even those with the goal of world unification do so through the view that their belief system will be the unifying factor.    Example... Those who believe Capitalismm, Socialism, Christianity, Islam, ect... will be the unifying force of the world.   They all do not account for basic human diversity that even when crushed will emerge again within homogenous socities.  

(Ooops...correction... Islam and Christianity do not promote a theory of unification but rather final war between good and evil so they are by their very nature, conflict driven religions in the end...although probably much more so in Christianity as in Islam Allah does seems to do all the punishing of nonbelievers on Judgement Day).

That is why I am a firm believer in diversity and checks and balances...along with an institution devoted to the maintance and influence of religiouis and economic forces to maintain these checks and balances in humanity.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[red oct 2]

Now if the Iraqis want to go ahead and introduce the death penalty (it is abolished for now) then it's their choice. I'm just saying that if they do, they will be viewed as savages by a significant portion of the civilized world. And that has consequences.

what kind of consequences exactly? sanctions, or just a morality lecture? a little thing like capital punishment never stopped any civilized nation from doing buisiness w/ those in question. China for instince executed 3400 people last year, and have quite a grizzly methood of carring it out i might add. i also remember that you defended the EU's decision to consider lifting the ban on arm sales to China. so why would you be willing to make concessions for China and not Iraq?

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Now if the Iraqis want to go ahead and introduce the death penalty (it is abolished for now) then it's their choice. I'm just saying that if they do, they will be viewed as savages by a significant portion of the civilized world. And that has consequences.

what kind of consequences exactly? sanctions, or just a morality lecture? a little thing like capital punishment never stopped any civilized nation from doing buisiness w/ those in question. China for instince executed 3400 people last year, and have quite a grizzly methood of carring it out i might add. i also remember that you defended the EU's decision to consider lifting the ban on arm sales to China. so why would you be willing to make concessions for China and not Iraq?

Morality lecture, obviously. Of course you can't let something as trivial as human rights to get in the way of good business!

In broader terms what would be given is an answer to if a muslim country is capable of behaving properly by European norms. By extension, it would be an evaluation of Islamic culture in general: given the freedom of choice, would Iraq choose the same path as the other Mid East countries, or would it embrace values more similar to the Western/European ones. In practice it would probably mostly affect the Muslims living in Europe and how Europeans see their culture.

And for the record, I have opposed and still oppose the sales of weapons to anybody really, especially countries with bad human-rights records - as China.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]"though i agree that it would set a bad example to the world"

Now, why would you think that would be? Care to elaborate?

For the obvious reasons as worked into a small essay already by Miles Teg . State killings in cold blood i disagree with and am sickened by. Revenge as a motive i disagree with and am saddened by. However if some people think that one man who does so much harm to his country thereby forfeits the remainer of his life as a citizen of that country then that is one not totally unreasonable idea of justice (though one i disagree with). Let us not continue with the fiction that Saddam is some unremarkable citizen or common murderer.

Quote[/b] ]It's not a question of not hurting Saddam. It's a question of the Iraqi government killing its citizens.

One and the same. There are principles at stake but for Iraqis its also unavoidably personal. They could write a constitution with a 'former dictators only may be executed' clause, in which case it would not set a precedent for the citizenry at large (Saddam being an exceptional 'citizen' *).

I dont think they should kill Saddam, and i would disagree with them doing so, but the point is i for one would not think them 'savage' because of it. Iraqis are only human and they have taken a lot because of one man. If i was Iraqi i would probably rather see him dead. So i can understand it. I can tolerate it without approving of it.

Quote[/b] ]In broader terms what would be given is an answer to if a muslim country is capable of behaving properly by European norms. By extension, it would be an evaluation of Islamic culture in general: given the freedom of choice, would Iraq choose the same path as the other Mid East countries, or would it embrace values more similar to the Western/European ones. In practice it would probably mostly affect the Muslims living in Europe and how Europeans see their culture.

If a muslim country is capable of behaving properly by european norms?  Whatever happened to your cherished relativism? Does any european country behave properly by 'muslim norms'? Besides which (to be fair to my fellow 'savages' the muslim Iraqis), given the freedom of choice, opinion polls have suggested that the British public is in favour of bringing back hanging (i half think its just a slogan-but given the Sun reading masses i wouldnt be sure). We may not be the only savages in europe either.

Turkey though seems a better test for now of the possibilities of muslim nations (and i think they have a thing or two to teach us as well).

*Perhaps if theyre really civilised like us Brits theyll become a

monarchy and have 'subjects' instead  

[Balschoiw 0]

Resistance in Iraq gets more focussed and deadly in their modus operandi :

Attacks hit vital security in Iraq

Quote[/b] ]Iraq's insurgents are conducting increasingly sophisticated and lethal attacks on the private security companies that are crucial to the nation's reconstruction and the eventual departure of U.S. troops, contractors and U.S. officials say.

These contractors and officials point to the surprising level of planning and brutality involved in a May 8 attack on the British security company Hart Security Ltd., which provides protection to convoys, homes and individuals in Iraq.

Twelve out of 18 Iraqi and international guards were killed in the attack, in which insurgents ambushed a convoy escorting cargo for the U.S. forces from Baghdad to a base in al-Asat, about 90 miles west of the city.

Once resistance from the security team ended, the attackers moved in to finish off the wounded, then piled several of the bodies on top of a bomb so they could not be removed without setting off an explosion, sources said.

The terrorists taped the event, presumably to develop a training and recruiting tool and to study to refine their techniques. The six-minute video is available on the Internet with a claim of responsibility from the terrorist group Ansar al-Sunnah Army.

Security specialists said the terrorists appeared to have calibrated mortars in advance of the attack, permitting direct hits on the five-vehicle convoy just as it hit a series of hidden bombs laid out in a "daisy chain" along the road.

The militants then managed to split up the convoy and systematically wipe out members of each smaller component.

Such attacks "have become much more organized and much more complex," said one retired special-operations officer working as a security manager for a firm operating in Iraq.

"In 2003, they were random small-arms fire. Then they escalated to roadside bombs — sometimes command-detonated or with tripwires. Then they escalated to car bombs that would run a ramp and pull into a convoy or traffic circle.

"And now they are very well organized, rehearsed, orchestrated, using a combination of rocket-propelled grenades, [roadside bombs] set in a daisy chain to get the wounded as they exit the vehicles, heavy machine guns, small arms and hand-thrown grenades," he said.

At least 93 security operators have been killed in Iraq since April 2003, icasualties.org reported. The Web site showed the number of contractor deaths spiking in April with 20 killed, the most since 31 contractors died in August 2004. So far, seven have been killed this month.

Security operators think the numbers are higher. About 130 private security companies, each with hundreds of operators working in Iraq, are hired to defend personnel, facilities and convoys.

Most are highly skilled and ex-military professionals who have been in the protection business "longer than the average soldier in Iraq has been alive" said one U.S. official in Baghdad.

As in any industry, the sector also has its share of inexperienced wannabes, as they are described derisively by some of the operators in Baghdad.

Some guards also say recruiters have hit the bottom of the professional barrel and are hiring anyone who knows how to handle a gun.

Security companies are making huge profits providing clients with a line of armored cars, low-visibility cars, armed guards known as "shooters," and drivers.

With the intensity and sophistication of terrorist attacks increasing, and with the constant fear of kidnapping, the cost of security has mushroomed to account for 16 percent of the total reconstruction budget.

But the bottom line is that without private security companies, "reconstruction would not be done" in Iraq, said Lawrence Peter, director of a group representing private security companies in Iraq.

"Private security companies are responsible for the security of the entire reconstruction effort," Mr. Peter said. "If we didn't have them here, we would need another division of troops.

"These men who have died, they served with distinction," he said.

while Tony Blair could play a keyrole in investigating the "made-up-war" case. I doubt that there will be anything new or honest from him as he doesn´t even speak fact to his own people but it would be nice to see him grilled on the issue. It´s time for him to say good-bye anyway, so yes, it´s a good thing to keep up pressure on him and make him responsible for what he and G.W Bush are responsible for.

Blair faces US probe over secret Iraq invasion plan

Quote[/b] ]SENIOR American congressmen are considering sending a delegation to London to investigate Britain’s role in preparations for the war in Iraq.

Democratic opponents of President George W Bush have seized on a leaked Downing Street memo, first published three weeks ago by The Sunday Times, as evidence that American lawmakers were misled about Bush’s intentions in Iraq.

A group of 89 Democrats from the House of Representatives has written to Bush to ask whether the memo is accurate.

It recounts a discussion between Tony Blair and his military and intelligence advisers about the Bush administration’s views in July 2002, three months before Congress authorised the White House to go to war with Iraq.

The Democrat letter, drafted by Congressman John Conyers of Michigan, said that the memo raised “troubling new questions regarding the legal justifications for the war as well as the integrity of your own administrationâ€.

US administration officials tried to shrug off the letter last week. Scott McClellan, Bush’s spokesman, said the White House saw “no need†to respond to an affair that one newspaper dubbed “memogateâ€. Yet Democratic opponents of the war appear determined not to let the matter drop. “They (the Republicans) are trying desperately to wait it out and hope that nobody will bring this up,†Conyers said. “But this thing will not be snuffed out. â€

The memo was written by Matthew Rycroft, a foreign policy aide to Blair. It described a meeting on July 23, 2002 where Sir Richard Dearlove, head of MI6 who had recently returned from meeting CIA officials in Washington, was quoted as saying that Bush wanted “to remove Saddam (Hussein) through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD (weapons of mass destruction)â€.

Dearlove also noted that “the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policyâ€.

Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, was quoted as describing the case against Saddam as “thinâ€. At the time Bush was still publicly insisting that no decision had been made to go to war and that he was committed to a diplomatic solution.

Conyers said the memo raised “very serious questions about an abuse of power , . . it is a very serious constitutional matterâ€. Under the US constitution, only Congress has the power to declare war, and it was not until mid-October 2002 that Bush obtained the necessary authorisation to begin military preparations.

“There are members saying that if they knew then what they know now they wouldn’t have given him those powers (to wage war),†Conyers said.

By sending investigators to London, Conyers hopes to stir the US media into re-examining a story largely ignored in America since Bush’s re-election victory in November.

“I deplore the fact that our media have been so reticent on the question of whether there was a secret planning of a war for which neither the Congress nor the American people had given permission,†Conyers said.

“We have The Sunday Times to thank for this very important activity. It reminds me of Watergate, which started off as a tiny little incident reported in The Washington Post. I think that the interest of many citizens is picking up.â€

Another Democrat who signed the letter said that the affair could have repercussions on mid-term elections next year. “People are beginning to understand that those crying in the wilderness (opposing the war in Iraq) were not without rationale,†said Congressman Danny Davis of Illinois.

“If we had a plan which people believed was going to take us out (of Iraq) they would feel much better. But the fact is there has not been a real strategy to get us out.â€

[denoir 0]

There are principles at stake but for Iraqis its also unavoidably personal. They could write a constitution with a 'former dictators only may be executed' clause, in which case it would not set a precedent for the citizenry at large (Saddam being an exceptional 'citizen' *).

It is always unavoidably personal. If somebody killed your family, it would be very personal. You know they don't hand out death penalties around the world to shop-lifters.

The point of a modern legal system is however protecting the legal and moral consistency of society, rather than 'getting even', because it feels good.

Or are you suggesting that if enough people agree on a certain punishment for an individual, then it overrides the regular rule of law? If Bob thinks Roger should be executed, it's not going to happen, but if Bob, Terry, Tim and Connie do, then it is? That's mob rule, not justice.

The modern legal system is a consequence of social evolution where the laws have changed an endless number of time. It is the insight that current laws are quite relative while the consequences, the thing you actually do to a person is fairly absolute. The tranistion of having your head cut off because you kill everybody in a city-block to having your head cut off because you tell a naughty furniture-related joke about the Prince of Wales.

This is especially important in the context of democracy, in which people are as thick headed as ever, but have political power.

Quote[/b] ]If a muslim country is capable of behaving properly by european norms?  Whatever happened to your cherished relativism?

My cherished relativism? Have you looked around a bit around you? In liberal Europe, in über-liberal Holland, Pim Fortuyn's party got a significant number of places in parliament on the platform "Let's kick all the Muslims out, because they don't share our tradition of tolerance".

My own opinions on cultural relativism is irrelevant - there is a clear hostility towards Muslims in the western world.

Quote[/b] ]Turkey though seems a better test for now of the possibilities of muslim nations (and i think they have a thing or two to teach us as well).

Oh really, mr. Relativism? Turkey whose prominence is based on mr. Atatürk killing off all the religious leaders and enforcing secularism in order to be more "European". And they havn't changed that policy a bit. They've banned the death penalty etc because they want to join the EU.

So, a good example for muslim nations is according to you one that amputates its culture in order to fit in with Europe.

Quote[/b] ]Besides which (to be fair to my fellow 'savages' the muslim Iraqis), given the freedom of choice, opinion polls have suggested that the British public is in favour of bringing back hanging (i half think its just a slogan-but given the Sun reading masses i wouldnt be sure). We may not be the only savages in europe either.

*Perhaps if theyre really civilised like us Brits theyll become a

monarchy and have 'subjects' instead  

Heh, who said that I consider the British to be civilized or even European?  

[Bordoy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Heh, who said that I consider the British to be civilized or even European?

We are civillised, well about a 1/6 of us are. The rest are raking in benefits, being viloent, having kids as 14 etc

[miles teg 1]

I should point out that the issue of "Civilized" vs "Savage" is not a very good way to look at the issue of Saddam and capital punishment in the Middle East.

ANY country has the potential for the exact same behavior. Most so-called civilized nations everywhere in the world have at one point in their history behaved in extremely savage manners. Often the most technologically advanced nations were amongst the most barbaric.

Britain for certain has had a long history of incredible savagery in the name of establishing "civilization" in its old colonies. Same with the French, the Germans, ect...

Recent violence between Muslim immigrants in Holland and Dutch citizens shows that the potential for revenge killing and massive ethnic cleansing is definitely there bubbling at the surface and barely restrained. We may see in the near future such forces unleashed against immigrants in European countries.

So in my opinion Arabs are not any more savage then the rest of us by their very nature. For the most part, most of the Middle East and Arab countries are very peaceful. Iraq is simply the cumulative effect of a vast number of cultural, religious, historical, and outside factors (like a US invasion and Al-Qaeda insipired terrorism) that have all come together to create an incredibly hostile and "savage" situation.

But ultimately the potential for savagery is within all of the human race just as the potential for civility is within the whole human race and it does not have to take on the form of "European" style civility.

So I do understand Acecombat's resentment of being lumped together with "Savages" or being called a "Savage" because he supports capital punishment. Western style capitalism can also be seen as VERY savage in its blatant exploitation of developing countries and their natural resources. This can be seen as an extreme form of oppression and savagery by those at the bottom of the barrel in a capitalist system.

Thats a simiplistic generalization but this is the view of many people in the developing world...hence alot of the anger towards rich industrialized nations who they view as hypocrits daring to call themselves "civilized" when they see their exploitation of their nations by these "civilized" nations.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]It is always unavoidably personal. If somebody killed your family, it would be very personal. You know they don't hand out death penalties around the world to shop-lifters.

Yes exactly, and in Iraq so many families have lost someone to Saddam or his wars or worked for the regime, that its a  personal issue for everyone (nearly). Restraint should be exercised of course, but these are not ordinary times for Iraq and i could understand if in this transitional era some Iraqis wanted Saddam executed for his crimes, to make a break with the past more nearly and for what Americans would call closure. I would disagree, yet would understand it and not view them as savages even whilst the killing in cold blood of an old man would sicken me. That is all im saying.

Quote[/b] ]Oh really, mr. Relativism? Turkey whose prominence is based on mr. Atatürk killing off all the religious leaders and enforcing secularism in order to be more "European". And they havn't changed that policy a bit. They've banned the death penalty etc because they want to join the EU.

So, a good example for muslim nations is according to you one that amputates its culture in order to fit in with Europe.

No. I said Turkey seems -a better test of the possibilities of muslim nations- (regarding those watching who would see Saddams execution as savage). Iraq would now be a traumatised and possibly unstable nation no matter what religion was dominant.

Ataturk is a complex figure and this maybe isnt the place to discuss it. Most view Ataturks actions on religion as an attempt to make religion a private matter, he also had a view to a uniquely Turkish form of Islam. Many of his philosophical remarks can easily be seen reflected in the 13th century Sufi mystic (those Miles Teg keeps mentioning) Mevlana whos turbaned grave i have visited in Konya (a Turkish centre of the whirling dervishes). Turkey (which Ataturk founded) did not 'amputate' its culture, i dont think such a thing is even possible had Ataturk wished it (i dont think he did) and execution in Turkey was hardly a part of its Islamic culture anyway. Seems like you have a few prejudices knocking around.

Quote[/b] ]My own opinions on cultural relativism is irrelevant - there is a clear hostility towards Muslims in the western world.

Yes, fair point (amongst some in the western world) but it seems absurd to view the execution (or lack) of Saddam Hussein in relatively secular Iraq as a gauge of Islamic 'civilization' even when for example interactions with immigrant muslims in europe would provide a more meaningful and useful test of the views, habits etc of followers of Islam.

Miles Teg-

Quote[/b] ]Recent violence between Muslim immigrants in Holland and Dutch citizens shows that the potential for revenge killing and massive ethnic cleansing is definitely there bubbling at the surface and barely restrained.   We may see in the near future such forces unleashed against immigrants in European countries.

I really dont think so. Not in this country anyway. Nor did I  get the feeling last time i was in Holland that massive ethnic cleansing was about to break out but perhaps i wasnt in the right (wrong) areas. Still i think thats pushing it a bit far- i hope im not wrong. Individuals might carry out attacks, but i wouldnt imagine the actions of extremists would quite amount to massive ethnic cleansing. Yet perhaps i have misjudged the mood throughout europe..

Do you have a link for that recent violence? Ive been out of the 24 hour news loop for about a month. Was there some outbreak of violence?  

[miles teg 1]

Nah nothing new in Holland that I heard...I mainly was speaking of violence in the past months. But I may indeed have a skewed view of that here in the US as perhaps alot of that was blown way out of proportion by the media. But the media on the BBC and on the US news made it seem as if the Dutch were out for Muslim blood.

However I think most would agree that in many parts of Europe race relations are very strained. But this is probably the wrong forum thread to talk about that stuff.

My main point is that savage behavior could easily happen in any country under the right circumstances. WWII and the Nazis were not that long ago.

I know that if American Muslims carried out a massive terrorist attack here in this country that for certain there would be alot of violence towards Muslims here in the US.

One thing I'm curious about is how Muslims were treated (or are still being treated) by the non-Muslim Spanish majority after the train bombings in Spain. I haven't heard much about that or whether there was any backlash against Muslims there.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Acecombat 0]

Denoir:

Quote[/b] ]The rule of thumb is "Treat others like you want to be treated yourself", not "Treat others like they have treated you"

Read that sentence again from Saddams perspective and tell me how he treated others and how he wants to be treated now? Quit playing verbal games and either acknowledge that the saying means what it does or simply refuse to believe in what it says.

Quote[/b] ]And where do you wish to draw a limit to the revenge? Just kill him? He who has killed thousands? Why not torture him first, surely he has deserved that?

What you fail to understand is that it's not about protecting him, it's about protecting you from becoming a murderer. It is about not becoming a killer yourself.

I think i've made it quite clear. I didnt mention torture anywhere in a serious manner as a state of law.

And what you fail to understand is that by killing a murderer for his crimes we dont become murderers ourselves. Thats your rationale not everyone elses.

Quote[/b] ]And I'm saying that history has shown us that there are no such basic rules. As you can see, we can't agree on it. If we can't what makes you think the rest of the world can?

What? You know of a society or culture in this world that was quite popular among the majority of humanity through times which supported murderers getting away with their crimes?

Quote[/b] ]I think the death penalty is utterly barbaric and that only "human filth", as you put it, would support it. Obviously you disagree. So there are no absolutes on what is acceptable, right or wrong - only what you de facto do about it.

So killing a guy whos caused so much death and destruction we become human filth? wow nice rationale , a single death is a tradegy and a million is a statistic ?

Quote[/b] ]"Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person."

Well better empty those jail cells then we're trampling on the liberty of poor criminals in them i am sure . Dude these one liner laws are cool but whoever made them up obviously didnt bother thinking of the whole scope of what that sentence says. People who dont believe in these laws are exempt from them in my opinion , we can always not bother killing them and chucking them in prison but killing them should be kept as an option thats my whole argument i am not out for all out ultra extremist killing of every murderer nor for the liberal weener version of letting everyone go and enjoy a life which they so mercilessly took from someone.

Quote[/b] ]Rubbish. Law is written by those in power, regardless how they came to power. Not even in the most progressive democracies are the people involved in writing the law.

And tell me do you agree with that?

Quote[/b] ]Some time ago, the death penalty was abolished in Turkey, it was declared to be a violation of human rights. Should the people that wrote and implemented the previous laws be thrown in jail for violating human rights?

I think we know why they did that , surely your last few posts give away a gist of it. People who sell of their own beliefs just be part of a club they consider cool/hip surely dont have any opinions themselves then they simply want to copycat all the things they find their peers doing. I've seen kids do that.

And what for do we send the previous folks to jail? Because someone suddenyl decided to speed up the EU joining process ? Or because a handful of people who according to you have no collective reliable concensus from the people on how laws should be decided to write a few things 'they' considered right?

Quote[/b] ]It depends on the level you are looking at. Universally speaking, everything is relative. In practice, there are trends in the world. The reference trend today are western democracies, and if I understand correctly, you are a western sympathizer yourself. There are a number of different possible metrics as well as quality of life, violence in the society etc Then there's also the relative development, Arab countries are becoming more like western countries, not the other way around etc

I am hardly a westerner sympathesizer first of all. I sympathize with what i see as right and not wrong simple. You dont see me agreeing here with you ? So how could i be a western sympathsizer? I only support things in the west which i see are right and these have been around universally for sometime , they arent specific to the west or east but present among humanity in general from time to time it varied from one place to another. I dont buy everything that comes from the west i disagree with a lot of things done there and i agree with a lot of things there same for the east side.

I only refer to western countries for certain aspects of life not all , and so should anyone else with a little bit of self opinion and personal brain power in him. Following a bunch of culture trends blindly because they came from a source which is progressing and financially stable is dumb at best. Not everything that glitters is gold and our history (arab) especially proves that.

One more thing you need to realize is that modernization is not called westernization as people often mix/confuse them both. Europe didnt become easternize when it adopted/learned various things from the east/arabian societys. Arabian countries are ofcourse to some extent westernizing mainly it would be stupid to deny that and thats not mainly because western culture is superior but due to various other factors mainly financial grip , technological advancement (tv, pc's trend setters which induce western influence since these things havent been localized yet its a one side game) , then we have stupid leaders some ultra right/left doing whatever they please either racing head on in to adopting other cultures and dropping all of their own due to some sort of insecurity or inferiority complex.

Quote[/b] ]Also, tolerance is often mistaken for relativism. A part of the western system is tolerance to diversity. I may feel utter loathing for countries that have the death penalty, but I'll accept that it's their right. While I reserve the right to have an opinion about them, I do not advocate conversion by force. The question there is of course where you draw the line of when you let your moral rules override the rules of others (stopping a genocide for instance).

Agreed. All along ive been saying the same thing. Let the people decide on it and if the shit hits the fan go in and do something about it. Sadly most of the time this is not practised with sincere intentions in present politics.

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, that's revenge, not justice. The point of the legal system is to do what is best for society, not what appeases an individuals feelings at the the time.

The legal system is written or should reflect the thoughts of the people living by them , agree? So if some society wants to treat this issue on an individual basis it should be granted , therefore the society is no one to come in and argue about it. Because the society didnt stop the murder from happening and neither can it compensate for it to the effected.

Quote[/b] ]That's a load of you-know-what. The death penalty has been in place around the world for thousands of years, and that hasn't prevented tyrants from mass murdering people. A very good example of it is the fact that the violent crime rates in countries that have the death penalty are far higher than in the countries that don't. It's a question of accepting violence as a means of dealing with issues. The society sets the moral standard. If the society murders its citizens it sends a clear message that killing is ok.

How many tyrants personally do you think thought that they'd be tried and trialed ? None or most certainly didnt did thus no fear. Apart from that not everyone else here is fearless as you claim to be , plenty of people have had and always will fear death , thus making a large part of them think before they act in a criminal manner.

Regions where crime rates are high are not because of death penalty but because of illetrate and retarded people having a go constantly at each other for petty things it stems from their mentality not capital punishment , its simply abused/used as a tool which wasnt created for such a thing. What are the crime rates in america ? Is it because they killed 59 people so the whole country goes berzerk? Hardly think so.

The society murders the murderers to show its citizen that if you do this thats what'll happen to you , a clear message that DONT DO IT.

Quote[/b] ]I don't think anybody here has approved of the murdering that the resistance in Iraq does. There's a difference between understanding and approving. I fully understand why people would want to execute Saddam, but that doesn't mean I approve of it.

No i dont think you understand why the iraqis wanna do it otherwise you wouldnt have equated them with savages or saddam himself . Theres a big difference there which you arent seeing.

Quote[/b] ]And you don't want to hold the legal system to the same standards?

The legal system doesnt dictate or run every human being under its complete control , the day when everyone follows a specific code in which no one kills and everyone becomes a peacemaker we'll agree on it but until then ... the legal system shall be used to practically face the problem present rather then ignoring it becuase we have a utopic view on things.

I'd like to remind in the end once again what i said earlier my whole point behind debating this point is to keep the option of capital punishment open along with the pardon one and let the person upon whom the atrocity was committed or those near to him decide if they cant then the society in which they live in general should. Its no good dropping to any one end of the extreme spectrum , atleast i dont like it. I would like to stay a moderate and have options for both sides open.

Hope mods dont consider this debate over capital punishment too OT , its all denoirs fault i swear .

[miles teg 1]

I have to agree with Denoir.  Not putting a murderer to death is NOT letting him live a free and happy life.  Again PRISON IS PUNISHMENT and very severe punishment at that.  It is an almost total loss of freedom.  It also gives a murderer a chance for redemption.  I also agree with Denoir that putting a murder to death, puts society on the same level as the murderer.  I'm not sure where you get the idea that life in prison is not punishment.

But maybe Denoir and I have been watching too much Star Wars. lol   (I just saw Episode III a little while ago...the parallels between it and the War in Iraq and the Bush administration are scary).  lol   But with this thread in mind, I highly recommend you watch it if or when they begin showing it in the theatres in Saudi Arabia.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]But maybe Denoir and I have been watching too much Star Wars. lol   (I just saw Episode III a little while ago...the parallels between it and the War in Iraq and the Bush administration are scary).  lol   But with this thread in mind, I highly recommend you watch it if or when they begin showing it in the theatres in Saudi Arabia.

Hmmm..So I was right! TBA is actually controlling Al-Qaeda and the insurgency in Iraq. Furthermore, I must warn the Jedi about Order 66...wait a sec...Jedis don't exist. Hmm.. Anyway, I should not worry because Bush in 20-30 years is going to overthrow Emperor Cheney. How does Moff Billybob2002 sound? Later on, when the Empire is losing, I will join the Rebel Alliance.

*Wakes up in the real world* What the feck was I talking about... It's a movie....  

Quote[/b] ]But the media on the BBC and on the US news made it seem as if the Dutch were out for Muslim blood.

US media and violence against Muslims in Holland...hmm..that's new. I have heard that some Hollanders have developed white flight and the growing intolerance but not violence.

Back to Iraq: Good news that those Romanian people were released.

[TwentyFourSeven 0]

Its a very sad situation not helped by the leaked Saddam Y'Fronts photos. Ive a few muslim friends and they have said, "Saddam will be judged by Allah for his actions". These are iraqi Kurds who have hatred Saddam but except his past actions and his killings are not work of one man alone and Allah will deal the final questions for Saddam. Incha'allah.

The middle east is like chess, Knight takes bishop, Queen takes Knight and the King feasts on the oil pawns.

There's so much distrust in the Iraq that my friends have relayed rummours that they believe its the CIA planting some car bombs causing a need to keep troops there. I naturally defended the west and said its costing to much as is and an exit is wanted by all sides. They then commented of more rummours that are circluating in iraq that most of the defense budget is not tax payer but its part iraqi oil money funding war efferts. With so much claim and counter claim the truth has lost its meaning and its a void that cant be filled. Personally i hope the rummours are false but I cant say for sure hand on heart they are.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The level of violence continues to rise.

at current expanding date rate the number of those killed since George Bush Junior mistakenly said the war was over will surpass those killed in the war within months.

Quote[/b] ]Over the last two weeks, almost 400 people have been killed in Iraq. Experts are left struggling to explain the escalation of violence.

The latest attacks by insurgents have been largely in the centre and north of the country. There have been attacks in different parts of Baghdad, in Tikrit about 175km (110 miles) to the north, and, further north, in the town of Hawija, near Kirkuk.

In recent days, there has been fierce fighting between US forces and suspected Islamic militants in what is often called Iraq's "wild west", near the Syrian border.

A big US operation is under way against a suspected network of the radical Jordanian Islamist, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

The violence has shattered the lull which followed the Iraqi election at the end of January.

April saw a sharp increase in attacks, especially suicide bombings, and this month there has so far been no let-up

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4537065.stm

The Coalition seems completly unable to hold the ground won in battle. As we all know this is because there are insufficient troops to do the job.

When American Generals warned TBA of this before the war they got the Sack.

Sadly walker

[Acecombat 0]

I have to agree with Denoir. Not putting a murderer to death is NOT letting him live a free and happy life. Again PRISON IS PUNISHMENT and very severe punishment at that. It is an almost total loss of freedom. It also gives a murderer a chance for redemption. I also agree with Denoir that putting a murder to death, puts society on the same level as the murderer. I'm not sure where you get the idea that life in prison is not punishment.

But maybe Denoir and I have been watching too much Star Wars. lol (I just saw Episode III a little while ago...the parallels between it and the War in Iraq and the Bush administration are scary). lol But with this thread in mind, I highly recommend you watch it if or when they begin showing it in the theatres in Saudi Arabia.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

Life in prison is not punishment enough for guys like saddam miles , after all that he did i dont think its enough and neither is he gonna regret what hes done not anytime soon , hes a complete moron for that to happen. This isnt about one or two kills its about thousands , and theres no one better to judge this then the iraqis themselves and whatever their decision will be i'll accept that and i'd be much more better if people stop calling the iraqis a bunhc of savages or murderers themselves because they killed a murderering retard.

And putting a murderer to death doesnt put us to their level. thats your ratioanle not everyone elses. If simply killing him is bringing us to their level then does putting them in prison and throwing away the key is similiar to what a kidnapper does .

Metting out punishment is a different thing then committing a crime , or do people on your side have no such concept at all?

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]I know that if American Muslims carried out a massive terrorist attack here in this country that for certain there would be alot of violence towards Muslims here in the US.

You know nothing. I think the lack of violence towards muslims after 9/11 proves that. I heard about some stupid kids throwing rocks through the window of an arab immigrants restaurant because it was called Bin Laden's (poor guy if I was there I would of kicked the shit out of the kids). That's the only incident I've heard of. I'm sure there were probably a few more, but hardly a lot as you make it seem.

When the next terrorist attack hits America I'm sure there will be a few morons through out the country looking to cause trouble, that's inevitable as people are fools and the most foolish of them will act hastily and with out thought. The last time around during 9/11 though I read lots of stories where non muslims had gone to local mosque offering to stand guard with them just incase some lunatics tried to attack it.

Say what you will, I hate Americans also, but they are pretty tolerant despite what all the chicken littles say.

[denoir 0]

I think the lack of violence towards muslims after 9/11 proves that.

Well... not counting the 100k or so Iraqis that bought it.. right?   Or the harmless fun/torture of prisoners.. You don't think that's related to 9/11?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]You know nothing. I think the lack of violence towards muslims after 9/11 proves that.

I guess it´s you who knows nothing...

Quote[/b] ]For the 2004 calendar year, CAIR and its affiliate chapters processed a grand total of 1,522 192 incident reports 193 involving claims of civil rights discrimination and harassment. This was a 49 percent increase in reported cases of harassment, violence and discriminatory treatment from 2003 (1,019 reports). This also marks the highest number of Muslim civil rights cases ever reported to CAIR in our eleven year history.

I wouldn´t call a 49 percent rise in anti-muslim attacks "nothing", but maybe I should just search for a stone to hide under, that is not occupied by Monroe...

Meanwhile the US enabled thievery of national historic items turns out to be larger than expected:

At least 8,000 treasures looted from Iraq museum still untraced

Quote[/b] ]Evidence of how quickly and irretrievably a country can be stripped of its cultural heritage came with the Iraq war in 2003.

The latest figures, presented to the art crime conference yesterday by John Curtis of the British Museum, suggested that half of the 40 iconic items from the Iraq National Museum in Baghdad still had not been retrieved. And of at least 15,000 items looted from its storerooms, about 8,000 have yet to be traced.

About 4,000 of the objects taken from the museum had been recovered in Iraq. But illustrating the international demand for such antiquities, Dr Curtis said around 1,000 had been confiscated in the US, 500 pieces had been impounded in France, 250 in Switzerland and 200 or so in Jordan.

Other artefacts have been retrieved from surrounding countries such as Syria, Kuwait, Iran and Turkey. None of these objects has yet been sent back to Iraq.

Other items had been destroyed or stolen from enormously important archaeological sites such as those at Nimrud and Babylon. "Some of them resemble minefields there are so many holes," Dr Curtis said.

Random checks on Western soldiers leaving the area had found some in illegal possession of ancient artefacts.

But he said: "I don't think large numbers of antiquities from these sites have been passing through London. I'm not aware of large amounts being in the salerooms in London."

The full extent of the damage has been impossible to gauge so far because of the deteriorating security situation.

The director of the Iraq National Museum has been forced to seal his storerooms because it is currently too dangerous for his staff to start work on an inventory of the material that has been returned.

An international mission planned under the auspices of Unesco, the United Nations' cultural organisation, with advice from experts at the British Museum, has been unable to start work for similar reasons.

The delays all make it more likely that material will continue to be lost from the country's archaeological sites, some of which have been permanently damaged by war.

Two years ago, the BBC documentary-maker and historian Dan Cruickshank suggested that museum staff had been involved in, or permitted, the looting . But Dr Curtis said he thought staff had nothing to do with the thefts. There was confusion, he said, because museum staff had emptied cases of transportable goods and hidden them in secret storerooms before war broke out.

A spokesman for the London market said everyone in Britain was acutely aware of the dangers of buying goods from Iraq and there were very strong deterrents. The Cultural Objects (Offences) Act of 2003 meant anyone trading in illicit objects facedup to seven years in jail.

[Akira 0]

A month or so ago, my History Channel magazine had an interesting article about a Minnisota or Wisconsin (I think) NG soldier that was activated shortly after the looting. She was a curator of one of the museums, and her sole job was to repair the artifacts destroyed, setup the Baghdad Museum again, and help track down missing artifacts.

If I can find a link I'll post it (might have to scan the article).

[miles teg 1]

Quote[/b] ]  You know nothing. I think the lack of violence towards muslims after 9/11 proves that. I heard about some stupid kids throwing rocks through the window of an arab immigrants restaurant because it was called Bin Laden's (poor guy if I was there I would of kicked the shit out of the kids). That's the only incident I've heard of. I'm sure there were probably a few more, but hardly a lot as you make it seem.

     When the next terrorist attack hits America I'm sure there will be a few morons through out the country looking to cause trouble, that's inevitable as people are fools and the most foolish of them will act hastily and with out thought. The last time around during 9/11 though I read lots of stories where non muslims had gone to local mosque offering to stand guard with them just incase some lunatics tried to attack it.

    Say what you will, I hate Americans also, but they are pretty tolerant despite what all the chicken littles say.

Mr. Sputnik...  You have NO IDEA how much violence there has been directed towards Muslims. What country are you from? Please find me this story of non-Muslim Americans standing guard in front of their local mosques. There were definitely no non-Muslims standing guard at the mosques in my city.  

The American news DOES NOT COVER most of the hate crimes and discrimination of Muslims accept for a few stories on local news in individual cities and through the associated press.  In my city alone there has been dozens of acts of violence towards Middle Easterners including last year a whole string of Middle Eastern owned gas stations that were burned down.  A close friend of mine who is a Arab civil rights activist was shot at, and I've interviewed many others who had a wide variety of harrassment and attacks towards them.  Even myself, once when I wore a traditional Iranian hat (and had a full beard) got a lot of ugly comments on the bus (like people behind calling me a sand nigger and a terrorist). I've heard many more first-hand accounts of attacks and discrimination. 

My masters thesis project that I'm currently finishing up is on the Islamic community in my city and how their lives have changed since 9/11 (in addition to an applied focus on interfaith dialog). That's why I know of first hand accounts on this matter. For you to say I know nothing about this is rather stupid especially if you don't even live here in America.

Living in a country and knowing about it from stuff on the news are two VERY different things. Granted, news coverage on a country gives you a broader picture, but also, news coverage on a country tends to leave out many things especially if its geared towards an international audience. But even the national domestic news here (ABC, NBC, CBS, ect...) leaves out a tremendous amount of important news or gives certain topics very poor coverage such as the internal struggle of US military members fighting against taking the Anthrax vaccination. Most Americans know nothing about that, or NOTHING about studies done on the links between depleted uranium ammunition and deaths and cancer cases amongst US military Iraq War vets and Iraqi civilians.

Here are a few examples of incidents violence and discrimination against Muslims here in the US:

Quote[/b] ] NY Muslim Group To Call For FBI Probes Of Beatings

Muslim student taunted and assaulted, Bangladeshi immigrant killed

(NEW YORK, NY, 5/22/05) – On Sunday, May 22, the New York office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-NY) will hold a news conference to call for FBI probes of two violent incidents that may have been motivated by anti-Muslim bias. The CAIR-NY news conference will take place today during a community rally in Brooklyn calling for justice in the beating death of a Muslim immigrant from Bangladesh who was found May 6 in a pool of blood not far from his home. Members of the local Muslim community believe the crime may have been bias-related because money was left in the victim's pocket. SEE: “NYPD Playing Catch-Up In A Botched Murder Case†http://abclocal.go.com/wabc....an.html “Cops: Supervisors Botched Initial Probe of Fatal Beating†http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-nycops214269951may21,0,7972196.story

http://www.recordnet.com/article....n-2.php

Quote[/b] ]

[student reports Quran in campus toilet

No suspects or leads in incident at Delta College

By Greg Kane

Record Staff Writer

Published Friday, May 20, 2005

STOCKTON -- A San Joaquin Delta College student discovered a copy of the Quran in a library toilet Wednesday evening, an incident similar to one described in a now-retracted news report that sparked Muslim protests worldwide last week.

Delta police wouldn't release the name of the student, whom they say found the Muslim holy book in the toilet of a second-floor men's bathroom in the library just after 7 p.m. Wednesday. Sgt. Geff Greenwood said the student removed the book from the toilet and placed it on a bathroom shelf before contacting the police.

The scenario mirrors one described in a retracted Newsweek article that led to deadly riots in Afghanistan and protests in other Muslim nations last week. That Newsweek article, citing unidentified sources, claimed interrogators at Guantanamo Bay had flushed a Quran down a toilet to intimidate detainees.

The Quran is the most revered book in Islam. Desecrating it is seen as an offense to Allah.

Word of the discovery spread quickly across the Delta campus Thursday morning. Muslim students said they were more disappointed than angry to learn that someone at school had desecrated the book.

"We have respect for all other religions," said Ramsey Abboushi, a 19-year-old Muslim student. "We can only hope to get that same respect."

Sean Khan, 19, is Muslim but doesn't seriously practice the religion. He still found it upsetting that someone chose to mock another's beliefs in such a way.

"If it was any religious materials, I'd be equally offended," Khan said. "It's just ignorant."

Wade Heath, an 18-year-old Christian student, said Delta is a culturally diverse campus and was surprised to learn about the discovery early Thursday. Heath is a Lutheran but understands why Muslims would be upset by the incident.

"If it was the Bible flushed down the toilet, I'd be angry," Heath said. "It's a total disrespect to somebody's beliefs."

Another Muslim student, Ahmed Falol, 19, said he thought it was probably a copycat of the Newsweek incident.

Greenwood said they would still likely pursue hate-crime charges if the person responsible is found.

Police have no suspects or leads. The book came from the library and is being held as evidence. Remaining copies of the Quran have been placed behind the library desk to prevent it from happening again, Greenwood said.

Abboushi said he doubts the person will ever be found.

"There are 20,000 kids that go to this school," Abboushi said. "They're not going to stop everyone and ask if they desecrated the Quran."

Contact reporter Greg Kane at (209) 546-8276 or gkane@recordnet.com

http://www.ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=28643

Quote[/b] ]

RIGHTS-U.S.:

Fear of Islam on the Rise - Muslim Group

Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON, May 11 (IPS) - Reported incidents of anti-Muslim bias including hate crimes, discrimination, and harassment rose sharply in the United States last year, according to a new report by a major Islamic group.

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), in a report released Wednesday, said it received 141 reports of actual or planned violence against Muslims or mosques nationwide, a 52 percent increase over the 93 reports the group received in 2003 and the 42 it received in 2002.

In addition, the number of incidents reportedly involving some form of police or law-enforcement abuse, such as unreasonable arrests, detentions and searches, rose sharply in 2004, constituting more than one-fourth of all cases of abuse or discrimination, according to the report, 'Unequal Protection: The Status of Muslim Civil Rights in the United States 2005'.

Such cases constituted only seven percent of reported incidents in 2003, according CAIR, which stressed that its report could not be considered scientific because it relied on voluntary reporting by alleged victims or witnesses.

Altogether, it said, more than 1,900 incidents of abuse and discrimination were reported to CAIR, of which 1,522 were deemed sufficiently credible to be included in the tally. That total was 49 percent greater than the 2003 totals.

â€These disturbing figures come as no surprise given growing Islamophobic sentiments and a general misperception of Islam and Muslims,†said CAIR Legal Director Arsalan Iftikhar, who wrote the 62-page report.

According to the 2000 census, 1.2 million U.S. residents identified themselves as being of Arab origin. Figures on Muslims are controversial, with estimates ranging from three million to seven million.

Laila al Qatani, communications director of the Arab-American Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC), which also tracks hate crimes and the violation of the civil rights of Arab Americans, told IPS her group also has seen a rise in abuses, particularly in employment discrimination.

â€We're continuing to see a lot of discrimination cases, certainly more than in the past,†she said. ADC is expected to release its own report on the situation of civil rights of Arab Americans at the end of this year, the first since 2002.

Both groups said the jump in the tallies was due at least in part to an increased willingness by victims and their families to report incidents compared to the immediate aftermath of the Sep. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. Then, attacks on suspected Muslims and Arabs reached an all-time high and the federal government rounded up hundreds of Muslim immigrants and held them virtually incommunicado.

The ongoing public controversy over the fate of civil liberties after the 2001 terrorist attacks has encouraged Muslim- and Arab- Americans to report incidents, according to Iftikhar and al Qatani. In addition, CAIR and other groups have mounted aggressive campaigns in Muslim- and Arab-American communities to encourage people to come forward.

CAIR's communication director, Ibrahim Hooper, also suggested that the responsiveness of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to reports of hate crimes against Muslim Americans had encouraged more victims to come forward.

â€Every time we referred a hate crime to the FBI, it's been investigated thoroughly and professionally,†he said. The report, however, called on the FBI to act more pro-actively rather than relying so much on groups like CAIR to report incidents.

But aside from increased reporting, the CAIR report stressed that the actual number of Islamophobic incidents has almost certainly increased. It blamed the rise on the lingering atmosphere of fear directed at Muslims, Arabs, and South Asians that followed the 9/11 attacks and what it called the ''growing use of anti-Muslim rhetoric by some local and national opinion leaders.â€

â€Ninety-nine percent of media professionals are doing the best job then can given the resources available to them,†said Hooper. â€But there's a tiny number of columnists and journalists who make it their life's work to try to marginalise the Muslim community.â€

Still, CAIR's executive director, Nihad Awad, stressed that Islamophobia remained a critical problem and called on President George W. Bush, whose public statements against Islamophobia have been widely praised by civil-liberties and Muslim activists, â€to once again speak up on behalf of the rights of Muslims,†if for no other reason than to make U.S. public diplomacy toward the Muslim world more credible.

â€American Muslims are a crucial resource in bridging the gap between Americans and Muslims worldwide,†said Awad. â€We can't promote democracy abroad if we have such problems at home. Our community is fearful.â€

While reports of anti-Muslim hate crimes and police abuses were up in 2004, according to the report, CAIR received fewer reports of workplace discrimination and discrimination by government offices compared to the previous year. Fewer incidents of Internet harassment of U.S. Muslims also were reported.

Among the most egregious examples of Islamophobia -- and the government's own fueling of anti-Muslim sentiment -- since the post-9/11 roundups, according to the report, was the case of James Yee, an Army captain who converted to Islam in 1990.

Yee was arrested in 2003 and held in solitary confinement for nearly three months on suspicion that he had spied for al Qaeda or some other group while serving as a chaplain for prisoners held by the U.S. at the naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Despite pre-trial hype, Yee was initially charged only with wrongfully transporting classified material, charges that were subsequently changed to adultery and storing pornography on a government-issued computer. In April, 2004, all charges and reprimands issued in the case were dropped, and Yee finally returned as an Army chaplain to his home base at Fort Lewis, Washington. There, in the absence of a government apology for his treatment, he tendered his resignation from the Army.

A second notorious case cited by CAIR involved another Muslim convert, Oregon lawyer Brandon Mayfield, who was arrested by the FBI as a â€material witness†in the case of the March 11, 2004, train bombings in Madrid, Spain, based on the Bureau's apparent misidentification of a fingerprint.

Mayfield, who had never even traveled to Spain, was detained for two weeks while newspapers and electronic media ran hundreds of stories labeling him a â€terrorist.†He was finally released at the end of March with an FBI apology. (END/2005)

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news....8.story

Quote[/b] ]

103 anti-Muslim incidents in Florida last year, according to report

The Associated Press

Posted May 11 2005, 6:31 PM EDT

ORLANDO -- There were 103 anti-Muslim incidents reported in Florida last year, an 18 percent increase over the previous year, according to a report released Wednesday by the Florida Chapter of Council on American-Islamic Relations.

Even though Florida ranked No. 7 in the nation for anti-Muslim incidents, the rate of increase was smaller than the rest of the nation. But Muslim leaders in Florida were concerned about the increase in hate crimes, which rose to 15 in 2004 from 2 in 2003, said Ahmed Bedier, central Florida director of CAIR.

Bedier attributed the hate crimes spike to the beheadings in the Middle East that occurred last year.

``After 911, we thought as we moved away from that time, the number of incidents would decline,'' Bedier said. ``But we've seen an opposite trend. The bias and the stereotypes is settling in. People are becoming accepting to the notion that Islam is the enemy of America. It's not said, but people feel it.''

Twenty-four incidents of discriminatory application of the law, the largest category of anti-Muslim incidents, were reported. But the figure was slightly less than last year.

Bedier said he hopes the report causes public officials to speak out against ``Islamphobia.''

``We believe most of these incidents are the results of ignorance,'' Bedier said. ``Individuals are lashing out against fellow Americans thinking they're the enemy. But these people are just as patriotic as they are. They just happen to practice a different religion.''

Nationwide, reports of hate crimes against Muslims rose 52 percent to 141 last year compared with 2003, and claims of civil rights violations reported to the council jumped 49 percent to 1,522.

http://www.coloradoan.com/apps....002

Quote[/b] ]

Islamic Center vandalized

Police do not suspect hate crime, though timing is suspicious

By SARA REED

SaraReed@coloradoan.com

Community members rallied around the Islamic Center on Monday, a day after a brick was tossed through a window, breaking five panes of the thick glass and damaging some of the wooden framework.

Though police do not believe the vandalism was a hate crime, the timing is suspect, coming on the heels of Saturday's "Not in Our Town" forum, which addresses the causes and effects of bias, discrimination and hate in the community.

Glass still littered the floor of the prayer room where the brick was thrown through a window at the center, 900 Peterson St., sometime between 2 p.m. and 7:30 p.m. Sunday.

No one was in the building at the time. "There's no indication" the vandalism was a hate crime, said Fort Collins Sgt. Mike Walker.

In a hate crime, Walker said, there is a message left in addition to the damage. In the incident at the Islamic Center, no message was left.

On Monday, community members and church leaders gathered at the center in a show of solidarity. "It is imperative we stand together," said Rabbi Zvi Ish-Shalom of Congregation Har Shalom in Fort Collins. "If a brick is thrown at the Islamic Center, it's the same as if a brick were thrown at the synagogue."

In addition to coming the day after the Not in Our Town kickoff, the incident came the day after the center hosted a gathering for Sheik Yusuf Estes, who on Thursday gave a talk at Colorado State University titled "Terrorism, Islam and the West."

"I find the timing troubling, whether it was a hate crime or not," said Phil Koster, a Not in Our Town organizer and member of the Hate Incident Response Team. "It could be to see how serious we are or how prepared we are as a community to deal with incidents such as this. This kind of behavior is not welcome. This is not allowed in our town."

Belgasem Belgasem, president of the Islamic Center, said he was grateful for the show of support from the community.

"We are not alone," he said. "We have to stand up as one body to protect the innocent. This should be the duty of every wise man and wise woman in this town."

This is the third such incident since 1999, and Belgasem said there is some fear that the incident broke what he characterized as an uneasy peace.

"These small things sometimes turn into bigger things," he said. "But it gives us an indication that we'll never be secure."

Yusuf Siddiqui, a CSU professor who has lived in Fort Collins since 1964, said he thinks the incident was motivated by hate, and he feels threatened by it.

"We're not a large group," he said. "We depend on the good will of the majority. Everyone knows this is an Islamic Center."

Community support is crucial following this type of incident, Siddiqui said.

"If they think they can get away with it, they will do it again and again," he said.

There are people in Fort Collins, though, who want to work to make sure everyone feels secure in the community.

Lorrie Wolfe knows what it's like to feel targeted because of religion.

About 20 years ago, Wolfe said she attended a talk given at a local church by a white supremacist. Wolfe, who is Jewish, said she felt she was being targeted.

"I didn't know if my car was going to be broken in to in the parking lot," she said. "I didn't know if I was going to find a burning cross in my yard one night. I remember what it's like to be made to feel frightened or vulnerable by someone promoting hate. I'm not comfortable with anyone making my neighbors feel that way."

Wolfe sought support from the Interfaith Alliance, and the outpouring of support helped her, she said, and that's something she wants to bring to the Muslim community.

"That feeling of solidarity was very healing, exciting," she said. "It's one the things that's marvelous about Fort Collins."

Originally published April 19, 2005

http://www.nola.com/news....150.xml

Quote[/b] ]

Times-Picayune  

$45,000 reward offered in fatal attack on woman

'My goal is to find the killer of my wife'

Wednesday, April 20, 2005

By Michelle Hunter

East Jefferson bureau

Four months after Iman Muhanna Mohammed was fatally stabbed in her west Metairie home, the trickle of tips about the attack has all but dried up. In hopes of loosening the lips of anyone with clues that could identify the killer of the pregnant teacher, the West Bank Muslim Association and Crimestoppers Inc. on Tuesday announced a $45,000 reward for information.

"Our hearts are still bleeding from this horrible, terrible crime," said Mohammed's widower, Fakhri Mohammed. "The killer must come to justice soon."

The reward, increased from $2,500, is the second-largest in the 23-year history of Crimestoppers' New Orleans area chapter, Executive Director Darlene Cusanza said. The largest was in a murder case that predates Cusanza's tenure, and she had no other information about it.

"That's an incredible amount of money," she said. "We're hoping to encourage anyone to come forward. If they have information, no matter how small, they need to call us."

Fakhri Mohammed, 45, a taxi driver, found his wife's body the morning of Dec. 17 after he returned home from taking their children to school at the Muslim Academy in Harvey. His wife, 42, had been a teacher there for four years but was on maternity leave.

The couple, both U.S. citizens born in Palestine, had an 8-year-old son together, and Fakhri Mohammed has a daughter from a previous marriage.

Iman Mohammed was six months pregnant with a girl when she was stabbed 33 times and left to die in the upstairs bedroom of their home. The fetus did not survive.

Investigators found no signs of forced entry to the house. And while no motives have been ruled out, Deputy Chief Fred Williams of the Jefferson Parish Sheriff's Office said nothing of significant value was taken from the house. Detectives also have found no indication that the killing was a hate crime directed at a Muslim, he said.

Authorities fielded some tips from the public just after the killing, but the number soon tapered off, said Williams, head of criminal investigations. Despite that, he said, the investigation is active.

"We're not going to let it get cold on us," he said, adding that raising the reward money could generate the substantial tips that investigators need to close the case.

The increased reward money was raised through the West Bank Muslim Association, with donations also offered by Mohammed's relatives outside Louisiana, neighbors, co-workers and others, Fakhri Mohammed said.

Despite the shock and brutality of the crime, he said, he has made no plans to leave his home or the New Orleans area.

"My goal is to find the killer of my wife," he said.

. . . . . . .

Anyone with information about the case is asked to call Crimestoppers at (504) 822-1111 or (877) 903-7867. Callers do not have to give their names or testify.

Michelle Hunter can be reached at mhunter@timespicayune.com or (504) 883-7054.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[sputnik monroe 102]

Quote[/b] ]I guess it´s you who knows nothing...

   I decided long ago not to respond or debate with you Balschoiw, do to your massive credibility problem.

Quote[/b] ]Well... not counting the 100k or so Iraqis that bought it.. right?   Or the harmless fun/torture of prisoners.. You don't think that's related to 9/11?

   Miles and I are discussing a supposed genocide of muslims happening within the united states, not collateral damage in the iraq war.

Quote[/b] ]Please find me this story of non-Muslim Americans standing guard in front of their local mosques.

     I'm sorry I can't, I read it way back in 2001, I cannot even remember what paper it was anymore. I hope you can just trust me on that one, I've never lied on this board.

   However from one of the stories you posted...

     

Quote[/b] ]On Monday, community members and church leaders gathered at the center in a show of solidarity. "It is imperative we stand together," said Rabbi Zvi Ish-Shalom of Congregation Har Shalom in Fort Collins. "If a brick is thrown at the Islamic Center, it's the same as if a brick were thrown at the synagogue."

     I will admit that perhaps I'm wrong (even though that weakens my credibility immensely here where no ones ever wrong). I guess there has been an increase in attacks on muslims.

     So I suppose your right Miles. Americans are now knocked down a few more notches in my eyes. I didn't like them much before, though I did credit them for being a tolerant bunch. I'll be hard pressed to think of anything positive to say about Americans now.

      All that said I believe a muslim is safer living in America than a non muslim living in the middle east.