The Iraq thread 4

[Goeth 0]

WW1 y WW2.

Phhhh gimme a break. You might have helped europe a little in ww2 but trying to take all the credits is a bit stupid and rude.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]

Quote[/b] ]

I still don't understand how the freedom of the US is under threat from a small desert country, thousands of miles on the other side of the globe, and 30 or so years backwards?

Becauase they might put sand into my gas tank!

Quote[/b] ]Worthless answer, but yeah well, what's one to do when one doesn't have a real one?

Actually, no. Frisbee. His reply does have some worth if you look at it in the right way. You see. His flippant response to your legitimate query as to what he finds so disconcerting about Iraq, before the invasion. Is a pretty good indication of where his true opinions lie.

It's my opinion this Duke of Ray is just some ignorant adolescent desk jockey who gets a laugh out of somewhat bigoted humor and the whole concept of his country knocking over a disadvantaged nation because the idiot leader of his country says it's justified.

It also seems to me that he's not a native english speaker and he may or may not have been born in the United States. Either way. It would seem rather ironic that he would enjoy making off color remarks about other cultures when his own could quite possibly be the subject of the same kind of treatment in the U.S.

[kerosene 0]

I always thought by the time the U.S got involved in WW1 it was pretty much a foregone conclusion, and it was a bullshit, petty war over colonies for the most part.  You cant really blame the humilation of germany on the U.S though, try Britain and France on that score.

As for WW2, Duke of Ray, go look up the percentages of German soldieras who were commited to the Eastern front and the casualties inflicted, Russia saved Europes ass at least as much as America did.

I love the way some Americans have this selective memory thing going on when it come to ww2, most Americans were anti going to war to begin with, and you got involved because you were attacked by the Japanese.  Britain is one of the few countries that voluntarily declared war on the Nazis.  In any case it dosent mean europe is now obligated to follow the U.S every time they come up with some dumb idea on how to make the world "safer"

[Badgerboy 0]

I always thought by the time the U.S got involved in WW1 it was pretty much a foregone conclusion, and it was a bullshit, petty war over colonies for the most part.  You cant really blame the humilation of germany on the U.S though, try Britain and France on that score.

As for WW2, Duke of Ray, go look up the percentages of German soldieras who were commited to the Eastern front and the casualties inflicted, Russia saved Europes ass at least as much as America did.

I love the way some Americans have this selective memory thing going on when it come to ww2, most Americans were anti going to war to begin with, and you got involved because you were attacked by the Japanese.  Britain is one of the few countries that voluntarily declared war on the Nazis.  In any case it dosent mean europe is now obligated to follow the U.S every time they come up with some dumb idea on how to make the world "safer"

Actually, it was France who was putting massive pressure on Germany. The other powers attemptted to get them to back down, but the French were having none of it. They wanted all the damages paid off, plus interest, and invaded the Sarr when the Germany couldn't keep up the repayments.

Hence Hitlers jubliation when he got the French to surrender in the same train car that they had made a defeated Germany sign terms.

As for the US in WW1, they joined the conflict in 1917 when the the war was winding down. The military contributions were negligable, and only provided for political reasons.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]in 1917 when the the war was winding down

Frankly, that is bullshit. The year 1917 brought mostly only disasters to France and Britain, their ally Russia had collapsed, Italy was doing badly, western front was blogged in bloody massacres and Germany was almost strangling Britain with submarine warfare and there had been series of serious mutinies within the French Army. Germans knew that with US entering the war they had to make last ditch effort to win the war and launched massive attack in spring 1918 but after initial success the allies managed to hold out. Militarily, US involvevement was not decisive but economic and logistic support was massive and did help to win the war.

[DarkLight 0]

WW1 y WW2.

Pfff what bullshit

Saying that the US saved Europe is like saying that the universe consists of the milky way only. Sure, i'm not saying that the milky way isn't part of the universe, but you don't always have to think that there's no more than the stupid milky way! Sure, the US helped Europe a lot in WWII, there's no need to deny that. But that isn't the same as saying that the US saved Europe.

Goddamn it pisses me off when people say crap like: "be thankful that we saved you". My grandparents fought too you know, my family also died for everyone's fucking freedom! But do you see me begging for yall to kneel down and praise my country or my family? Fuck no! We all fought for our own asses, the USA didn't invade europe just to help us. We all fought for freedom, we all worked together for freedom, we all suffered losses and now what, now suddenly the US saved us all? Great hero of the west? Don't you people get history? How the hell can you be so disrespectful... I just don't understand... I just hope that it's because of a lack of knowledge that you say stuff like that... Or maybe you just don't care about all the other casualities...

Sure, your history books might praise the US as the great west that saved our sorry asses but sad enough this isn't really the truth.

Ok... sorry... but it pisses me off soooooo damn hard when i hear stuff like this...

For 5 years all our allied forces fought and fought and fought against the nazis and now america, that started 'saving' us the last year, suddenly walks away with all the fame, right?

Hahaha i sometimes sure do feel like smashing my head through my dad's monitor...

However i don't feel like dying with my head inside a stupid computer... so i'll just wait some more until i find a better occasion for my suicidal behaviour

Now... don't get me wrong, i am thankful for your cooperation in both wars. But i'm no more thankful to you than i am to the french, or the russians or whatever country...

None of these other countries get such a special treatment and yet we all suffered a lot more than America. For 5 horrible years we lived in war, twice!

I respect all soldiers that died on the battlefield, yes even the german soldiers, they were just doing their job just like everyone else. I don't see the point of feeling any hatred for any of them. Neither do i feel the urge to praise some country just because they think they've won the war on their own.

I'd love to take a look inside one of your history books, when i read what some american ppl say about both wars i seriously begin to doubt that these books have actually been made by ppl that know what they're talking about...

oh well

sorry for my nagging

and sorry if anyone feels offended by this

it's not my intentions... it just pisses me off sooooo goddamn hard...

[DarkLight 0]

Hehehe didn't even see all the WW replies

I guess i'm not the only one who doesn't like it when some ppl change history

[Badgerboy 0]

Quote[/b] ]in 1917 when the the war was winding down

Frankly, that is bullshit. The year 1917 brought mostly only disasters to France and Britain, their ally Russia had collapsed, Italy was doing badly, western front was blogged in bloody massacres and Germany was almost strangling Britain with submarine warfare and there had been series of serious mutinies within the French Army. Germans knew that with US entering the war they had to make last ditch effort to win the war and launched massive attack in spring 1918 but after initial success the allies managed to hold out. Militarily, US involvevement was not decisive but economic and logistic support was massive and did help to win the war.

From a strategic viewpoint it was winding down, the great slugathon was reaching a point where it was unsustainable, and the Allies saw that the Germans were about to crack. The battle of Jutland had taken place so a naval threat was no longer a question. The big push from the Germans was a massive gamble, if you look at the logistics, it wouldn't have had much of a chance of consolidating. The Push it would seem was an attempt to obtain political leverage to use for an armistice.

Although the US joined in 1917, it took many months before any forces had formed up and put into action. The massive German attack was effectively stopped by French and Commonwealth troops, not US.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Allies saw that the Germans were about to crack.

No, not in 1917. The Germans were able to divert their forces from the east thus giving them a manpower advantage in the west.

Quote[/b] ]The Push it would seem was an attempt to obtain political leverage to use for an armistice.

No, they actually tried to split the Franco-British army in half and make a decisive breakthrough in the west. French Government was prepared to abandon Paris. The attack was aimed to win the war and not some bargaining chips to be used in negotiations.

Quote[/b] ] it took many months before any forces had formed up and put into action

Yeah but don't forget all the financial and material aid which poured in. And in 1918:

Quote[/b] ]By May 1918, there were more than 500,000 US soldiers in France and by July of the same year, there were over a million US soldiers in France. The United States had sustained an estimated 360,000 casualties in the First World War, including 126,000 killed in action and 234,000 wounded.

So I'm not saying US totally decisive factor in winning the war but their commitment helped to shorten it possibly by several years. I would not go on about bashing US involvement in WW1 since it was indeed significant.

[denoir 0]

The American involvement in WW1 was minor. It did have a psychological signficance, but hardly a military one. It was first at the very end of the war any larger number of US forces were in place.

WW2 is of course a different story, where the US (and Russian for that part) involvement was essential for the outcome.

To nitpick a bit though, America hardly "saved Europe" in WW2, as in Europe it was Europeans invading Europeans. Also, several European countries were not at all involved in the fighting. "Helped save Europe from the Nazis" would be a more accurate description.

Anyway, the whole thing is of minor relevance today. It's like bringing up that France saved America from the British once upon a time.

[theavonlady 2]

Anyway, the whole thing is of minor relevance today. It's like bringing up that France saved America from the British once upon a time.

I don't think that's minor at all. It's just that the Lafayettes of this world seem to have become extinct.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

What about that Napoleon Eh? he was a one. And Alexander the great, well those Macedonians couldnt be beat.. Anyway back to -Iraq-

'Torture houses' found in Falluja -bbc

Quote[/b] ]US forces say they have found about 20 houses in Falluja where hostages may have been held and tortured.

American reporters were shown two houses from which soldiers said they had removed handcuffs, shackles, blood-caked knives and bayonets.

The British hostage Ken Bigley may have been held in one of the houses but investigators caution the sites have not yet undergone forensic testing.

In new violence, a senior Muslim cleric was assassinated in the city of Mosul.

---

An international conference aimed at supporting the Iraqi political process has opened in Egypt. -bbc

and from the EU-

Sharm el Sheikh: The EU offers Iraq Support and Partnership

i found this quite interesting:

Quote[/b] ]* Rule of law: The EU is already engaged in dialogue with the Iraqi authorities to start planning for a possible mission to support police, rule of law, and civilian administration activities. An expert team will travel to Iraq by the end of November to continue preparation of this mission, which is expected to start after the January 2005 elections.

Looks like a significant EU involvement in Iraq.

[bn880 5]

Anyway, the whole thing is of minor relevance today. It's like bringing up that France saved America from the British once upon a time.

I don't think that's minor at all. It's just that the Lafayettes of this world seem to have become extinct.

You are right it was not minor, US saved themselves from European /Asian invasion.

[bn880 5]

Militant groups control 60 percent of Fallujah: witnesses

Quote[/b] ]NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 21 (Xinhuanet) -- Militant groups in battle-torn Fallujah have controlled 60 percent of the central Iraqi city and surrounded dozens of US Marines in Jolan district,witnesses said Sunday.

"Defenders of the city are controlling 60 percent of the city and they are encircling dozens of US soldiers in Jolan neighborhood," eyewitnesses who managed to sneak out of the city told Xinhua.

Residents of Fallujah said the southern part of Fallujah, whichis still under control of the militant groups, constitutes the larger part of the city, and US troops only control the north andsmall eastern spots in the city.

"Some American troops are based in government buildings and the yare pounded by fighters," they said.

"In daytime, groups of mujahedeen (Holy War fighters) engage with hit-and-run attacks with US Marines, and at the same time they gear themselves up for the night battles," they said.Fierce fighting and loud explosions resonated throughout Jolan district before the sunset.

US troops continued pounding the area as plumes and columns ofsmoke covered the sky over Jolan and the southern al-Shuhadaa district.

Early this month, US and Iraqi forces launched a major offensiveto crush insurgents, including Zarqawi group, in Fallujah, 50 km west of Baghdad.

About one week later, the US military claimed it had controlled the city. Enditem

Take it with a grain of salt if you wish,but what the hell is happening in the city?Displaced Iraqis are still not allowed to go back into the city,the US deathtoll climbs steadeldy at every briefing now at 55,humanitarian convoys are still not allowed to enter the city,Red Cross claims the situation is dire and thousands of civillains still lack the basic necesities.

Either this is completely inacurrate, or we have very few reporters saying anything truthfull about Fal. today. Quite shocking if it is accurate.

[python3 0]

Militant groups control 60 percent of Fallujah: witnesses

Quote[/b] ]NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 21 (Xinhuanet) -- Militant groups in battle-torn Fallujah have controlled 60 percent of the central Iraqi city and surrounded dozens of US Marines in Jolan district,witnesses said Sunday.

   "Defenders of the city are controlling 60 percent of the city and they are encircling dozens of US soldiers in Jolan neighborhood," eyewitnesses who managed to sneak out of the city told Xinhua.

   Residents of Fallujah said the southern part of Fallujah, whichis still under control of the militant groups, constitutes the larger part of the city, and US troops only control the north andsmall eastern spots in the city.

   "Some American troops are based in government buildings and the yare pounded by fighters," they said.

   "In daytime, groups of mujahedeen (Holy War fighters) engage with hit-and-run attacks with US Marines, and at the same time they gear themselves up for the night battles," they said.Fierce fighting and loud explosions resonated throughout Jolan district before the sunset.

   US troops continued pounding the area as plumes and columns ofsmoke covered the sky over Jolan and the southern al-Shuhadaa district.

   Early this month, US and Iraqi forces launched a major offensiveto crush insurgents, including Zarqawi group, in Fallujah, 50 km west of Baghdad.

   About one week later, the US military claimed it had controlled the city. Enditem

Take it with a grain of salt if you wish,but what the hell is happening in the city?Displaced Iraqis are still not allowed to go back into the city,the US deathtoll climbs steadeldy at every briefing now at 55,humanitarian convoys are still not allowed to enter the city,Red Cross claims the situation is dire and thousands of civillains still lack the basic necesities.

Either this is completely inacurrate, or we have very few reporters saying anything truthfull about Fal. today.  Quite shocking if it is accurate.

oh, give it a few weeks and they will be back just like in samarra. For now it is hard to believe since the US is still there.

[Donnervogel 0]

@Blake

some remarks altought this is pretty off topic.

The germans did not divert many troops from the eastern front to the west after russia cracked down. By far most troops were kept in the region because they had to occupy the land they had won there. It was more military material that could be diverted to the western front and they didn't use as many ressources.

The germans declared their last offensives as their decisive push but that's like believing what fox news tells you ;) It's just propaganda. From now disclosed documents it is known that the german HQ was in a desperate situation and wated to put up pressure and hope that they could archieve an armistice to their advantage - meaning they could keep the land they conquered.

casualties of 360 000 men, while a terrible thing, are minimal compared to those of the other parties. There were many US soldiers in europe at the time but most of them never saw battle. The US refused to "fill up the trenches" of the british and french because they saw that this only led to senseless slaughter. Therefore they waited open battle but there weren't many occasions for that. But the large troop numbers as backup for the entente powers was indeed a strong psychological factor.

Interesting fact: at the battle of the somme died more men than american troops in both world wars together. But as you said the financial and mateiral support was very important for the entente to win the war.

[ralphwiggum 6]

<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>IRAQ THREAD!</span>

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Either this is completely inacurrate, or we have very few reporters saying anything truthfull about Fal. today. Quite shocking if it is accurate.

Actually I can count on my fingers the reporters who are trutful in their broadcast.Almost all are embeded with the US marines under tight regulations and restrictions.There is one reporter from BBC in the city which the network hasn`t had any new info for some while now and who was reporting a completly diferent story then that of CNN etc.

The leader of Fallujah

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, Iraq - (KRT) - A mid-30s Iraqi electrician whose religious fervor drew suspicion from Saddam Hussein's agents long before U.S. forces invaded Iraq became the most-feared man in Fallujah during the city's six months under insurgent control.

While U.S. official pronouncements about rebel leaders have focused on Jordanian terror suspect Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, rebel fighters and others who escaped the U.S. assault on Fallujah say the real power there was wielded by Omar Hussein Hadid, technically al-Zarqawi's underling but in fact the Iraqi face that allowed al-Zarqawi to remain there.

"Inside Fallujah, Omar was the leader. Even Abu Musab couldn't say no to him," said a mufti, or spiritual adviser, who sat on the council that directed the insurgents in Fallujah. Now hiding in Baghdad, the cleric spoke to Knight Ridder on condition of anonymity.

"If Abu Musab didn't cultivate the support of Omar, he never would've been allowed to stay in Fallujah," the mufti said.

U.S. officials for the past year have struggled to know who precisely is directing the Iraqi insurgency in the so-called Sunni Triangle north and west of Baghdad. That information was especially difficult to come by when the insurgency was a shadowy movement made up of mobile groups conducting ambushes and planting roadside bombs.

But during the months that Fallujah was under insurgent control, leaders became more public, holding meetings and directing their forces. Now, with the U.S. assault scattering those leaders and their followers, details of who ran the city are emerging in interviews with people who witnessed, and in some case, participated in the events.

The tale of Hadid's ascent to deputy commander of al-Zarqawi's group is now the stuff of legend in filthy camps for displaced residents, in the village homes of his tribesmen and even in an upscale restaurant in Baghdad where the mufti met with a reporter.

The story underscores that while Iraqi insurgents may draw inspiration from foreign radicals, their leadership is largely homegrown, with deep roots in local traditions.

From an early age, Hadid, a tall, stocky man whose smile reveals chipped teeth, was known as a Salafi, the follower of a puritan Islam who stood out even in conservative Fallujah, known as Iraq's City of Mosques.

Long before American forces became his target, Hadid took potshots at Saddam's secular government - unthinkable acts for most Iraqis, but especially brazen for Sunnis who often benefited from Saddam's patronage.

As a teenager, Hadid picked fights and "made people uneasy," said his uncle, Abu Mohamed Hadid, who lives in the family's tribal lands on the outskirts of Fallujah. His first outlaw act was shooting a policeman in the leg - a scandal that was settled in tribal courts with Hadid's family paying compensation to the officer, the uncle said.

The 1991 Gulf War ushered in a new religious conservatism in Iraq, and Hadid was excited about the shift from secular Arab nationalism. He found a mentor in a fellow Iraqi dissident named Mohammed al-Issawi who reportedly had fought the Russian government alongside Muslim Chechen rebels.

Together Hadid and al-Issawi campaigned against "sins" they saw in their city, threatening owners of beauty parlors and music stores. In the mid-1990s, Hadid terrified townspeople by blowing up Fallujah's only cinema, the mufti recalled with pride. It never reopened.

Baath Party security forces eventually stormed al-Issawi's house and killed him. As the story goes, a dying al-Issawi vowed revenge in a message written on the wall in his own blood. Hadid, then in his 20s, decided he would be the avenger.

"That day was the seed of everything going on with Omar today," said Lt. Col. Yasser Aftan, a former Fallujah police officer who participated in the raid on al-Issawi's home.

In retaliation for his friend's death, Hadid allegedly helped murder a senior official of Saddam's Baath party in Fallujah, then disappeared. Saddam's government tried him in absentia and sentenced him to death by hanging.

By then, however, Hadid had fled to northern Iraq, where Kurdish rebels associated with the militant group Ansar al Islam had reportedly granted him refuge, according to Hadid's family and friends.

Some of Hadid's associates said he next slipped into Syria and, later, Saudi Arabia. But the most oft-repeated account is that he was simply absorbed into a community of farmers and shepherds in the town of Qaim on the Syrian border.

"Omar doesn't talk about those years a lot," his uncle said. "I'm not even sure where he went. But I'd say there's a 90 percent chance he ended up in Afghanistan."

Hadid quietly returned to Fallujah after the fall of Saddam's regime in April 2003. He rented a modest house, opened an electrician's stand in a busy marketplace and resumed his pious life inside the city's many mosques.

The unpredictable upstart had turned into a mature man with an imposing presence and a gift for public speaking, people recall.

"He was convincing and persuasive. We couldn't believe it was him," said Abu Yasser Ahmed, a neighbor and distant relative of Hadid. "His manner was calmer and his knowledge of the religion had broadened. Before, it was hard to understand him. Now, he's very clear."

When the men of Fallujah decided to take up arms against U.S. forces, Hadid quickly assembled a small army. They started modestly, rebels said, firing rocket-propelled grenades at U.S. convoys and perfecting their crude, homemade bombs, but grew to heroic status after U.S. troops broke off efforts to occupy Fallujah last April.

Hadid, who had served on the front lines, became a local icon. His name was spray-painted on walls and recruits lined up to join the fight, several Fallujah residents said.

"He was just an electrician who fixed cables in your house for a dollar, and now he's a strong fighter," said Makki Nazal, a prominent Fallujah resident who participated in peace negotiations. "He's a terrorist to the Americans, a freedom fighter to the Iraqis."

Around that same time, Hadid became friendly with al-Zarqawi, whose Tawhid and Jihad, or Unity and Holy War, group was made up largely of foreigners. Hadid took command of a Tawhid and Jihad offshoot of about 1,500 men known as the Black Banners Brigade.

Hadid also provided an important service to al-Zarqawi, friends and rebel sources said: He protected him from being thrown out by the locals or being turned in for the $25 million U.S. officials had offered for his capture.

"He's a mujahid, a holy warrior," said Salman al Jumaili, a Fallujah native and insurgent expert at Baghdad University. "It didn't matter that his views were more extremist than most of the fighters in Fallujah. It didn't matter that he was just an electrician. The most important thing was that he's from the tribe of Mahamdeh and he's a son of the city."

In the wake of the U.S. decision in April to break off its attacks in Fallujah, Hadid and other guerrilla leaders decided to form a united front to govern the city. The resulting body was the Mujahedeen Shura, an 18-member council made up of Islamist, nationalist and former Baathist rebels in Fallujah.

"Until then, the resistance had no shape, no organization, no sophistication," said the mufti, who provided religious decrees, or fatwas, to support the council's decisions. "April made it clear who was coming out to fight, so we all met one another and made an agreement. Each cell took a territory to protect."

Hadid assumed control of Jolan, known as the most dangerous district in Fallujah.

Locals said they recognized him manning checkpoints and praying at popular mosques. And though tied to al-Zarqawi, whose Tawhid and Jihad group conducted a campaign of beheadings and large-scale bombings, Hadid was known as more merciful than his foreign comrades.

In one instance, recalled in separate interviews by two rebel sources, Hadid intervened to prevent the execution of a captured national guardsman after the guardsman's weeping mother pleaded for his release.

"I asked Omar once how he could bear to do it, how he could hold himself together when he slaughtered another human being," said one of Hadid's cousins, a 28-year-old man who gave his name only as Abu Nour. "He laughed and swore he'd never personally beheaded a hostage. He said he chose men who don't have hearts to do the actual killing. He said it's a battle, so everything is permissible."

It is unclear what happened to Hadid when U.S. troops entered Fallujah. Hadid's family and close rebel associates say Hadid survived the U.S. assault and is hiding in another town, still alive, still fighting, and still in charge. Some U.S. officials have speculated that he was killed, but they offer no hard evidence.

"I told Omar, `Why don't you take all the fighters outside Fallujah and just let the Americans enter for a while?' Fallujah is not Mecca," said Hadid's uncle, referring to the holiest city in Islam. "Omar's answer was no, we will fight to the end."

The uncle said Hadid's arm was seriously injured in an airstrike that destroyed his headquarters and killed about 35 militants, including Hadid's brother. Then, last week, a Lebanese television station aired footage of four hooded insurgents who said they were speaking from Fallujah. One of them claimed to be Hadid.

The mufti was cryptic about his friend's latest whereabouts. He sat at a table in an empty Baghdad restaurant, wrinkling his nose at the provocative music lyrics blaring from speakers. He stroked a perfectly trimmed bear and chose his words carefully.

"Omar was in Fallujah," he finally said.

When a reporter pointed out that he had used the past tense, the mufti simply smiled.

"He was just an electrician who fixed cables in your house for a dollar, and now he's a strong fighter," said Makki Nazal, a prominent Fallujah resident who participated in peace negotiations. "He's a terrorist to the Americans, a freedom fighter to the Iraqis."

Kinda sums it all up.Not your average Fedayeen boiling with Saddam fanatism and loyality nor your foreign jihadist dedicated to fight America until death but an Iraqi electrician that swore revange to Saddam`s regime and wanted byt his security forces.

So the question that inevitably arise.Why are two of the most proeminent resistance figures in Iraq-Moqtada Al-Sadr and this man both Iraqis that hated Saddam Hussein`s regime and prayed for the day when his regime would collapse one way or the other.

Clearly the US policy in Iraq is sufering for terrible misjudgment with the consequence of people they claimed to have eliberated from an opresive rule and had the most to win from the outsting of Saddam are taking up arms and in this case playing some of the most important roles in the resistance.

[billybob2002 0]

Hey Quckie, you notice this:

Quote[/b] ]Hadid also provided an important service to al-Zarqawi, friends and rebel sources said: He protected him from being thrown out by the locals or being turned in for the $25 million U.S. officials had offered for his capture.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....ocities

Quote[/b] ]

Blood, knives, cage hint at atrocities

Mon Nov 22, 9:40 AM ET Top Stories - Chicago Tribune

By James Janega Tribune staff reporter

Acting on information from a man who claimed to have escaped from militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's network, the U.S. military over the weekend inspected a house where intelligence officers believe hostages were detained, tortured and possibly killed.

A banner for Tawhid and Jihad--the name of al-Zarqawi's organization until he changed it last month to Al Qaeda in Iraq (news - web sites)--was recovered Saturday from the home, as were several black face masks, volumes of documents, handcuffs and two long, apparently blood-stained knives, military officials said.

On Sunday, a somber patrol of Marine officers visited the squalid two-story house on the edge of a dirt field in southern Fallujah.

The site is among nearly 20 found in Fallujah where insurgent atrocities are believed to have been committed. Maj. Jim West, intelligence officer for the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, said Sunday that some of the sites appear to have been used to hold Western hostages and others to torture or kill local people who disobeyed insurgents.

The Marine patrol also visited a second site Sunday that might have been another hostage holding area, this one in a building that contained a wire cage large enough for a human that had an intravenous bag beside it, as well as windowless, dungeon-like rooms, one of which had bloody fingerprints inside.

The Sunni Triangle city was invaded by U.S. and Iraqi forces Nov. 8 in an effort to cripple an insurgency that has beheaded foreign hostages and waged a campaign of bombings and assassinations.

`It all just came out'

U.S. intelligence officials said they were led to the house with the banner for al-Zarqawi's group on Friday by a man claiming to have escaped imprisonment there.

"He started talking, and it all just came out," said Capt. Raymond Pemberton, the intelligence officer for the 2nd Battalion, 2nd Infantry Regiment of the Army's 1st Infantry Division. The unit had been attached to the Marine Corps' 7th Regiment during the battle for Fallujah.

After viewing the house, speaking to Iraqi troops in the area and interviewing the informant, intelligence sources said they believed Arab and Western hostages had been held in the home, perhaps including British hostage Kenneth Bigley, who was beheaded in early October.

As the Marine officers visited the two houses Sunday, accompanied by a few reporters, they carried maps, documents and photographs that itemized materials found in earlier inspections.

While intermittent gunfire rattled nearby and the occasional thunder of arms caches being destroyed by American forces could be heard, the group viewed the homes in jaw-clenched silence.

The house most closely linked to al-Zarqawi, which contained the Tawhid and Jihad banner, is the last in a jumble of four homes in a neighborhood where Fallujah melts into the desert.

Three empty bottles of whiskey were dropped beside the front walk, and a pair of the type of black gym shoes worn by many insurgents was in the doorway beside a black ski mask.

Inside, a black banner bearing Arabic writing was taken off a wall in an empty room. Translated, it read "There is no God but God" and "The Organization of Tawhid and Jihad."

In the darkened hallway beside the empty room was a stained area where the informant told U.S. forces that captives had been tortured, said Maj. Lawrence Hussey, intelligence officer for the 7th Marine Regiment.

Thick nails protruded from the wall. A dirty black mask with holes cut for the eyes and mouth was on the floor beneath the stairs Sunday.

Mattresses and blankets

In a room to one side, there were torn mattresses and scattered blankets where intelligence officials believe insurgents had slept.

The informant told U.S. forces that the two rooms across the hall had been used to hold hostages. In one of them, seven more black masks, two British-made bulletproof vests, a pair of handcuffs and two AK-47 assault rifles were found.

In several of the videotaped beheadings of hostages, terrorists are seen wearing similar clothing, standing in front of a banner identical to the one torn off the wall of the house.

In addition to the knives found in the house, three cell phones and three ID cards--one for an Iraqi citizen and two for employees of an American contractor working in Iraq--were recovered.

There was a steel bar bolted into the bathroom wall. A chain dangled from it.

Holes through the walls connected the home to the three adjoining houses north of it, one of which the Marines identified as a chemistry lab and bombmaking factory.

Lethal ingredients

On a counter in the apparent bomb factory were a disassembled hand grenade, rubber gloves and numerous bottles of chemicals.

"This one says potassium cyanide," said an Egyptian translator employed by the Marines. At that point Sunday afternoon, he was the only one who could talk.

Sodium cyanide, he continued reading. Sulfuric acid. Hydrochloric acid.

Eventually, Chief Warrant Officer Lee Fair, of the 1st Battalion, 8th Marines, said quietly, "Anyone that knew what they were doing could put these things together and make something very dangerous. Looks like [in the next room] they were trying to put crude weapons together."

In that room, a hooded gas mask lay beside a large glass box, as did gloves, a carton of blasting caps and beakers full of chemicals. The floor was littered with broken glass and concrete chips blown out of the walls during the attack.

Earlier in the day, the team had visited a site farther north, a low H-shaped building first investigated by attacking Marines who spent the night in a building across the street.

In a dim room at the back of the building's courtyard, a cage was tucked into a corner, cobbled together from rusted bits of wire, chicken coops, broken crates and twist ties. It was tall enough for a person to stand in.

Beside it, investigators found a discarded IV bag on the stone floor, beside two rotting grass mattresses. Marine Lt. John Flanagan, an Arabic linguist, said a fluorescent light was found in the cage.

Looking for a connection

As Col. Craig Tucker, commander of the 7th Regimental Combat Team, stooped and stood inside the cage, Hussey and Flanagan compared the cage with a picture of Bigley taken by his captors, then decided he probably wasn't photographed there.

"Well, somebody got kept in there," Tucker said.

The Marines searched the rest of the house, clambering over a pile of rubble at the back of the room and into the hallway behind it. Children's drawings of cats and elephants covered the clay walls beside scratchings from Koranic verses.

Curtains made of burlap feed bags covered windows and bisected rooms, and grimy mattresses lay on the floors.

In a yawning black doorway off one of the clay-walled rooms was another chilling find: a dungeon-like room, pitch-black except for the flashlights of the Marines as they focused on a bloody fingerprint and cryptic etchings.

Scratched into the clay were words:

"Put . . . "

"Kept . . . "

"Plan . . . "

" . . . to pass on."

All were written in both English and Arabic. Beside those words was one more, written only in giant Arabic loops:

"Hope."

[bn880 5]

<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>IRAQ THREAD!</span>

Baaastard like you, no wonder you are obsessed about threads. If it's any consolation, life is not easy for any of us.

Right, sorry, must stay on topic.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

<span style='font-size:13pt;line-height:100%'>IRAQ THREAD!</span>

no shit sherlock!

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Says who exactly? When I was living in Germany, I had some Iranian friends, all Muslims, but very happy to live in Germany because they weren't being persecuted the way they had been back home after the Shah was deposed of!

Your generalisations are false and misleading.

Your right, not all Muslims are bad. I am talking about the ones that truly follow the religion, thankfully some do not.

I like this line, its essentially: "Not all muslims are bad....the ones that arent actually muslim because they dont follow the religion are ok!" ....so the only good "Muslims" are ones that arent actually muslim?

Duke i think you'd be more suited to being a lowly grunt, as youd need to be pretty smart to fly aircraft....well, maybe not in the US, but thats another matter.

[whisperFFW06 0]

After "any Iraqi with a gun is a terrorist and isn't a human, he can be shot at will", DofRay hit another all time low : "any muslim following his religion is a bad guy".

So, you've read these nice KKK translations of Quran?

[theavonlady 2]

So, you've read these nice KKK translations of Quran?

Browse back a few pages for my links and quotes regarding "offensive Jihad" from Islamic sites only.

This part of your accusation against DOR is incorrect.

[Donnervogel 0]

So, you've read these nice KKK translations of Quran?

Browse back a few pages for my links and quotes regarding "offensive Jihad" from Islamic sites only.

This part of your accusation against DOR is incorrect.

Well interpreteation of religous writings was always a very debateable topic. This does however not mean that islam is an offensive religion. I remember when I read the bible (I'm atheist btw) I saw many shocking and cruel things there too. And I know from european history that those things were abused to preach hatred and to justify the killing of followers of another religion. But in the end those are no rules given by the bible. Those are stories in the bible that can be interpreted in different ways. And some people abused their power to follow their - rather secular - aspirations for expansion and power.

Now I didn't read the Quran but I can imagine it's pretty much the same way with it. I know sevral muslims and if you look at turkey you can see that there are many muslims not preaching violence and hatred and they all have the same worries that we have and if you looked what happened in germany this weekend you saw a lot of peaceful muslims not fighting against the western culture. For those who didn't get the news. There was a huge muslim anti-terror demonstration.