The Iraq thread 4

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Quote[/b] ]Sir, you are very wrong. Why is Sweden not attacked? Not because they do not go around bombing people. That is completly stupid. Sweden is not a major obstacle to Mr.Bin-Laden, nor do they support Israel the way the U.S. does.

Right, Sweden, finest example of a working socialist market economy, finest example of European democracy, is not a good target for a crazy madmen who wants to turn the whole world into a Muslim fascist state

Quote[/b] ]Like it or not the U.S. is seen as the number one Christian nation in the world, which is a problem for Osama.

By whom exactly? Christians in Europe can only snigger at what you preach in the US. The US seems to have adopted a very militant and absurd form of Protestantism. Absurd enough to deserve to be called "sect".

Quote[/b] ]What did the U.S. do to provoke the 9/11 attacks? Tell me that

You have got to be kidding, right? The following are countries whose National Sovereignty (one of the US' founding principles) was infringed by the US (in chronological order as well)- either through political pressure, bombing, installment of fascist dictators, war crimes, persecution, election fraud, or support of fascist/authoritarian dictatorships:

China (1945-1960s)

Italy (1947 - 1948)

Greece (1947 - early 1950s)

Phillipines (1940s and 1950s)

Korea (1945-1953)

Albania (1949-1953)

...

Iran (1953)

...

Syria(1956-1957)

Middle East (1957-1958)

...

(many far-east asian and south-american countries here)

..

Greece(1964-1974)

...

Iraq (1972-1975)

...

Morocco(1983)

...

Libya(1981-1989)

...

etc!

Enough material to fill a 500 page book. "Killing Hope" by William Blum. I recommend you read it and find out about what the US did to deserve 9/11. And this is without even bringing Israel into the equation (which isn't an issue to me, but an issue to many Arabs)! What happened on 9/11 was the result of 60 years of aggressive and expansionistic US foreign policy. It was bound to happen, it HAD to happen. You can not go around bombing people left, right and centre and expect to not get any kind of retribution. Say "Thanks" to the Hawks in Langley and in Washington, they didn't blow up the Twin Towers, but their actions in the previous decades did.

Quote[/b] ]Yes, what we did to Oama in Afghanistan was wrong, but becuase we were supporting a terrorist, thats why. Our goverment can be very stupid,i.e. helping Osama and Saddam.

Then you ought to bomb Langley, perhaps?

Quote[/b] ]Of course they had rather run the country with a dictatorship, but who cares.

Says who exactly? When I was living in Germany, I had some Iranian friends, all Muslims, but very happy to live in Germany because they weren't being persecuted the way they had been back home after the Shah was deposed of!

Your generalisations are false and misleading.

Quote[/b] ]My country has the total right to tell them what to do if they are a threat to our freedom.

I still don't understand how the freedom of the US is under threat from a small desert country, thousands of miles on the other side of the globe, and 30 or so years backwards?

Quote[/b] ]Thats funny. Do you truly believe this? Do you watch Arab television? No, I don't think Iraq would or could invade the U.S.. Though, the might as well if they support terrorist that strike the U.S..

Then how exactly is your freedom under threat

Quote[/b] ]Thats almost enough anlone to invade, Israel is our only friend in the ME, and we have to support them. Besides do you not think Saddam would help terrorist figh the country he hated?

Saddam didn't hate the US, they merely were an enemy. He hated the Kurds and the Iranians more than the US.

As for sticking your noses into other countries' business - I covered that already.

And as for helping your allies - the US are the most unreliable, most backstabbing and irresponsible ally one could possibly hope for. Don't make me embarrass you and others here by having to bring up Smyrna

Quote[/b] ]The people can though, try to end a regieme like Saddam's, fight against it

I will re-phrase it: they tried, and were slaughtered!! What did you want them to do?? They tried, and failed. So guerilla warfare wasn't the way. What do you know about what they tried and what they didn't try? Their uprising was defeated, doesn't mean that the resistance against Saddam was defeated.

Quote[/b] ]Maybe it is just a concept few people really understand, but freedom is just something I can not live without.

You deserve a slap for this bullshit You don't know the least fucking bit about Freedom You are sitting away, in your little room in a vast country, talking about your freedom being under threat. What the hell, FROM WHOM?? If you knew the least thing about freedom, you wouldn't be posting such crap. What the hell do you know about SS companies marching through your city, well knowing that they will shoot you on a whim because they think you are an inferior species? What the hell do you know about having to keep your mouth shut about certain topics if you want to avoid prison or worse?? What the hell do you know about being persecuted because there is just a tad bit of difference between you and a majority of other people? What the hell do you know about 400 years of Turkish yoke?? What the hell do you know about risking death if you disagree with the wrong people? FUCK ALL YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT Your freedom ain't under threat, you have never even come close to experience a threat to your freedom, so shut up about it already, because its something you are completely oblivious about.

Ask Denoir or Ran who have been to places where Freedom was an unimaginable luxury - ask them what it is like to have to see human beings suffer properly. Until you know something about this, shut up about it. Fortunately I have never had to experience anything like this, but my mum did. She had to grow up in a fascist police state, installed and supported by the oh-so-Freedom-loving CIA. She had to see friends being taken away and tortured in prison. She had to watch friends of her getting shot in the Polytech uprising. I know enough about freedom to know that its hard to come by, and easily lost, but I also know that you don't risk to lose it from an "enemy" who's thousands of miles away and just wants to be left alone

As for the rest of your polemic rubbish, if Islam hates us so much - why hasn't the Imam or Sheriff of Mecca called out a general Jihad? A Holy Crusade against Christianity? Please tell me why? Because according to your logic, all "they" want to do is kill us all

[kerosene 0]

Basically i didnt want to give the impression I was a racist is why I put that second post up.

To say Muslims dont understand democracy and their religon wont allow it is ignorance. Turkey is good example, Ataturk pushed through decades worth of reform in a remarkably small period of time and is still regarded as one of Turkeys greatest figures. I know he wouldnt be great by modern standards, but few others would have at the time either.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Basically i didnt want to give the impression I was a racist is why I put that second post up.

To say Muslims dont understand democracy and their religon wont allow it is ignorance.  Turkey is good example, Ataturk pushed through decades worth of reform in a remarkably small period of time and is still regarded as one of Turkeys greatest figures.  I know he wouldnt be great by modern standards, but few others would have at the time either.

Ataturk was a wanker and as disgusting a war criminal as Saddam

Actually, even worse, because he caused more damage than him

[kerosene 0]

What did he do, I thiught his main thing was that he "secularized" Turkey.

My point was more about the fact that he made sweeping changes to an islamic society. Like I siad most of what any "great power" did at that time in other countries was wrong.

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

What did he do, I thiught his main thing was that he "secularized" Turkey.

My point was more about the fact that he made sweeping changes to an islamic society.  Like I siad most of what any "great power" did at that time in other countries was wrong.

Greek and Armenian holocaust in the early 1920s. Ethnic cleansing of said populations from what had been their home for millennia in the early 1920s.

Quote[/b] ]In September of 1922, Mustapha Kemal (Ataturk), the victorious revolutionary leader of Turkey, led his troops into Smyrna (now Izmir) a predominantly Christian city, as a flotilla of 27 Allied warships -including 3 American destroyers- looked on. The Turks soon proceeded to indulge in an orgy of pillage, rape and slaughter that the western powers anxious to protect their oil and trade interests in Turkey, condoned by their silence and refusal to intervene. Turkish forces then set fire to the legendary city and totally destroyed it. There followed a massive cover-up by tacit agreement of the Western Allies. By 1923 Smyrna's demise was all but expunged from historical memory.

Smyrna is (or I better say "was" ) twice as old as Athens and has always been an integral part of our culture. More info on Smyrna.

He single-handedly destroyed over 3 millennia of hellenistic influence in Asia Minor, almost completely eradicated the Armenians and torched one of the most beautiful cities in the Aegean.

But hey, he was great for the Turks :/

[billybob2002 0]

Lets get back on-topic..

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....debt_dc

Quote[/b] ]

G7, Paris Club Agree on Iraq Debt Write-Off

1 hour, 50 minutes ago

By Guido Bohsem and Paul Carrel

BERLIN/PARIS (Reuters) - The United States and Germany brokered a multi-national agreement on Saturday to forgive up to $33 billion of Iraq (news - web sites)'s debts, helping mend ties strained by the Iraq war.

German Finance Minister Hans Eichel and U.S Treasury Secretary John Snow thrashed out a deal on the margins of a meeting of finance ministers and central bank chiefs from the G20 group of rich and developing nations.

A source at the 19-nation Paris Club of creditors said the details were likely to be finalized on Sunday, adding: "There is an agreement between the main creditors on (cancelling) 80 percent of the debt."

A final Paris Club deal would end a dispute between the United States, Germany and France, who both opposed the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq. It could serve as a reference for relief deals with other creditors such as Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and eastern European states.

"This sets the benchmark for other major creditors. So everyone else will now follow," said Richard Segal, London-based analyst at emerging markets debt specialist Exotix.

"I think Iraq would have preferred a little more, but they would like to get this out of the way," he added.

The tentative agreement means 80 percent of Iraq's Paris Club debt would be broken up into three stages of 30 percent, 30 percent and 20 percent, respectively, Eichel said.

"We both agreed that we have to be prepared to achieve a substantial reduction in Iraq's debt," Eichel told reporters after meeting Snow.

RAPPROCHEMENT

A senior U.S. official said Iraq's foreign debts had swollen to around $125 billion -- from a pre-war estimate by the International Monetary Fund (news - web sites) (IMF (news - web sites)) of $120 billion -- a third of which was owed to the 19 Paris Club countries.

"It's a good arrangement for Iraq ... and it will also show how the world community can come together in a very cooperative way to address a problem," he said.

Prior to the latest round of Paris Club talks that began earlier this week, France and Germany had signaled they did not want to write off more than half of Iraq's debts. The United States had been pushing for a 90-95 percent reduction.

Germany kept France abreast of its negotiating stance, said Eichel: "We did not negotiate without informing the French."

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder told reporters Iraq was a rich country because of its oil reserves and if its economic outlook improved noticeably there could be grounds for further discussions on the third tranche.

Eichel said he and Snow agreed the timing of the second and third debt write off tranches would depend on Iraq respectively concluding and completing an economic program with the International Monetary Fund (IMF). (Additional reporting by Glenn Somerville and Sabyasachi Mitra in London))

@Mr. Artest aka RoNiN: Now the US has done some fuck up things. However, did a lot of positive in this world. Furthermore, to say that the US deserve 9/11 is .

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now the US has done some fuck up things. However, did a lot of positive in this world

Where am I denying this?

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, to say that the US deserve 9/11 is .

I agree, its crazy. I didn't say this, howerver, I said it was bound to happen sooner or later.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now the US has done some fuck up things. However, did a lot of positive in this world

Where am I denying this?

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, to say that the US deserve 9/11 is   .

I agree, its crazy. I didn't say this, howerver, I said it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Oh, just a rant then I see.

[joltan 0]

Well, if you drive blindfolded you're bound to hit a tree or something similar bad. Do your passengers deserve that? No, but it's hardly surprising if they get hurt (badly) - and it's your fault not just the tree's.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Duke of Ray said this:

"You all are right, the people in the mid-east don't care about freedom, or democracy. I do though. I would like to see freedom spread over there, but it will never happen. the people do not know how to handle it, nor will their religion allow it."

Im asking, why does he support the war then?  It appears to be unwinnable if you hold his view.

Are you addressing me? Just from the few words you attribute to DOR, I do not agree with his view, at least on several points.

Quote[/b] ]"You all are right, the people in the mid-east don't care about freedom, or democracy.

I disagree. Many care but are resigned to being unable to challenge regimes. So they live with it.

What percentage of the people? 20%? 40%? 60%? I can't say.

Neither can they.

Quote[/b] ]I would like to see freedom spread over there, but it will never happen.

There's a possibility that it will in Iraq. And this scares some of the neighbors to bits if Iraq succeeds.

This war is limited to Iraq as of today. I do not view it as unwinnable.

I hope your right Avon. Maybe I just have too negative view on the whole thing. Maybe I just see that way because there has never really been a ture muslim democracy. Again I truly do hope you right,I just see the glass as being have empty.

Quote[/b] ]By whom exactly? Christians in Europe can only snigger at what you preach in the US. The US seems to have adopted a very militant and absurd form of Protestantism. Absurd enough to deserve to be called "sect".

I am not saying it is true, the U.S. is not a very Christian nation, but the Islamic world sees it as that.

Quote[/b] ]Enough material to fill a 500 page book. "Killing Hope" by William Blum. I recommend you read it and find out about what the US did to deserve 9/11. And this is without even bringing Israel into the equation (which isn't an issue to me, but an issue to many Arabs)! What happened on 9/11 was the result of 60 years of aggressive and expansionistic US foreign policy. It was bound to happen, it HAD to happen. You can not go around bombing people left, right and centre and expect to not get any kind of retribution. Say "Thanks" to the Hawks in Langley and in Washington, they didn't blow up the Twin Towers, but their actions in the previous decades did.

Ok, lets say that is the reason, which it's not. Did civilians deserve to die? Why not attack a military base? WHY? TELL ME RIGHT NOW! WHY?!!!!! Who were we bombing left and right? Kosovo? Oh wait that was Europe's shitty fault besides we helped the damn muslims there! Tell me who did we bomb? Yea, America has been stupid with it's foriegn policy, but so have other countries. We are themost powerfull country in the world, so we have a little more pressure than some of you. But who even cares? NOBODY! Everything we do is not right, but there is never a right to kill civilians on purpose.

Quote[/b] ]Says who exactly? When I was living in Germany, I had some Iranian friends, all Muslims, but very happy to live in Germany because they weren't being persecuted the way they had been back home after the Shah was deposed of!

Your generalisations are false and misleading.

Your right, not all Muslims are bad. I am talking about the ones that truly follow the religion, thankfully some do not.

Quote[/b] ]I still don't understand how the freedom of the US is under threat from a small desert country, thousands of miles on the other side of the globe, and 30 or so years backwards?

Becauase they might put sand into my gas tank!

Quote[/b] ]Saddam didn't hate the US, they merely were an enemy. He hated the Kurds and the Iranians more than the US.

As for sticking your noses into other countries' business - I covered that already.

And as for helping your allies - the US are the most unreliable, most backstabbing and irresponsible ally one could possibly hope for. Don't make me embarrass you and others here by having to bring up Smyrna

Ok, but you can say thank you to the U.S. for saving Europe's ass two different times. Your welcome.

Quote[/b] ]You deserve a slap for this bullshit You don't know the least fucking bit about Freedom You are sitting away, in your little room in a vast country, talking about your freedom being under threat. What the hell, FROM WHOM?? If you knew the least thing about freedom, you wouldn't be posting such crap. What the hell do you know about SS companies marching through your city, well knowing that they will shoot you on a whim because they think you are an inferior species? What the hell do you know about having to keep your mouth shut about certain topics if you want to avoid prison or worse?? What the hell do you know about being persecuted because there is just a tad bit of difference between you and a majority of other people? What the hell do you know about 400 years of Turkish yoke?? What the hell do you know about risking death if you disagree with the wrong people? FUCK ALL YOU KNOW ABOUT THAT Your freedom ain't under threat, you have never even come close to experience a threat to your freedom, so shut up about it already, because its something you are completely oblivious about.

Ask Denoir or Ran who have been to places where Freedom was an unimaginable luxury - ask them what it is like to have to see human beings suffer properly. Until you know something about this, shut up about it. Fortunately I have never had to experience anything like this, but my mum did. She had to grow up in a fascist police state, installed and supported by the oh-so-Freedom-loving CIA. She had to see friends being taken away and tortured in prison. She had to watch friends of her getting shot in the Polytech uprising. I know enough about freedom to know that its hard to come by, and easily lost, but I also know that you don't risk to lose it from an "enemy" who's thousands of miles away and just wants to be left alone

As for the rest of your polemic rubbish, if Islam hates us so much - why hasn't the Imam or Sheriff of Mecca called out a general Jihad? A Holy Crusade against Christianity? Please tell me why? Because according to your logic, all "they" want to do is kill us all

Has your country had planes ran into bloody buildings because you were hated by a whole group of people? Hu? If they wanted to be left alone they should have never messed with us, but no it is too late. they have aksed for what they are getting. Do not think I am not going to do my part. I believe in this war, thats why I am joining the military, and if you don't believe me Ill get ya some pics buddy.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ex-RoNiN 0]

Oh, whatever Duke, I'm just going to say two more things:

1) What goes around, comes around

2) Good luck with the army

[Gollum1 0]

Has your country been bloody invaded? Hu? If they wanted to be left alone they should have never messed with us, but no it is too late. they have aksed for what they are getting. Do not think I am not going to do my part. I believe in this war, thats why I am joining the resistance, and if you don't believe me Ill get ya some pics buddy.

Fixed for sweet sweet truth.

[Goeth 0]

Ok, but you can say thank you to the U.S. for saving Europe's ass two different times. Your welcome.

Could you please be so kind and mention those times.

[Frisbee 0]

Who were we bombing left and right?Tell me who did we bomb?

Selective memory must be fun, people have told you time and time again where the US supported/installed fascist dictatorships, you don't have to bomb someone to make them dislike you. No, honestly.

Quote[/b] ]Everything we do is not right, but there is never a right to kill civilians on purpose.

Bombing and shelling a city with civilians inside doesn't strike me as a particulary effective way of avoiding civilian casualties. But hey, they're all terrorists, right? Right?

Quote[/b] ]Your right, not all Muslims are bad. I am talking about the ones that truly follow the religion, thankfully some do not.

Wait, christianity is good, above-all and perfect? All religions have or have had wackjobs interpreting things in a way to advance their own agenda. (crusades anyone?)

Christianity is not better than Islam.

Quote[/b] ]Becauase they might put sand into my gas tank!

Worthless answer, but yeah well, what's one to do when one doesn't have a real one?

Quote[/b] ]Ok, but you can say thank you to the U.S. for saving Europe's ass two different times. Your welcome.

"We saved your asses twice! So STFU and follow us blindly, you can't have an opinion of your own anymore!"

Quote[/b] ]Has your country had planes ran into bloody buildings because you were hated by a whole group of people? Hu? If they wanted to be left alone they should have never messed with us, but no it is too late. they have aksed for what they are getting.

Yeah, 9/11 sure was flashy, but you do know terrorists have blown up people all over europe as well?

Oh yeah, it's great to see you're linking 9/11 with all muslims, very productive. Again, Iraq <-> AQ, link?

Quote[/b] ]Do not think I am not going to do my part. I believe in this war, thats why I am joining the military, and if you don't believe me Ill get ya some pics buddy.

We'll see how you like it, what will you be doing? We might want to keep an eye out for you on CNN.

Quote[/b] ]AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hm, venting frustration?

I'm sure this post will will be ignored but yeah well.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Oh, whatever Duke, I'm just going to say two more things:

1) What goes around, comes around

2) Good luck with the army

Thank you. though it is the Air Force not the Army. Im gonna be a fly boy not a ground pounder.

Quote[/b] ]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote (Duke_of_Ray @ Nov. 21 2004,21:41)

Ok, but you can say thank you to the U.S. for saving Europe's ass two different times. Your welcome.

Could you please be so kind and mention those times.

WW1 y WW2.

Quote[/b] ]Selective memory must be fun, people have told you time and time again where the US supported/installed fascist dictatorships, you don't have to bomb someone to make them dislike you. No, honestly.

It was stated that we were bombing people right and left. I asked for who. Not dictators we supported, which I admit was stupid on our part. Still, many countries have done the same thing. Thats not why they hate us, but oh well.

Quote[/b] ]Bombing and shelling a city with civilians inside doesn't strike me as a particulary effective way of avoiding civilian casualties. But hey, they're all terrorists, right? Right?

Well of course!! I mean they do were turbans right?!

Quote[/b] ]Wait, christianity is good, above-all and perfect? All religions have or have had wackjobs interpreting things in a way to advance their own agenda. (crusades anyone?)

Christianity is not better than Islam.

Did I say this? WHERE? Uhhggggg!!!!! Im not even going here.

Quote[/b] ]Worthless answer, but yeah well, what's one to do when one doesn't have a real one?

It is a real chance. I figure some Iraqis will build a boat out of camal turds, and sail to the U.S.. After that they will track my house down by using the I.P. address given to them from the people at this board. Then pour some snad in my gas tank, and make fun of my ugly self.

Quote[/b] ]"We saved your asses twice! So STFU and follow us blindly, you can't have an opinion of your own anymore!"

Que mi amigo?

Quote[/b] ]Yeah, 9/11 sure was flashy, but you do know terrorists have blown up people all over europe as well?

Oh yeah, it's great to see you're linking 9/11 with all muslims, very productive. Again, Iraq <-> AQ, link?

Has there been an attack in Europe on that scale? On a country that did not support the U.S..? Maybe so, maybe I am wrong. Please tell me.

Quote[/b] ]We'll see how you like it, what will you be doing? We might want to keep an eye out for you on CNN.

Be prepared for the total sexiness that will take over your T.V..

Quote[/b] ]Hm, venting frustration?

I'm sure this post will will be ignored but yeah well.

Yea, because of post like yours baby.

[bn880 5]

Great, so you think by going aloft you will reap all the benefits of the military, but never face the reality of war. I think you're already half way there.

[bn880 5]

Quote[/b] ]Now the US has done some fuck up things. However, did a lot of positive in this world

Where am I denying this?

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, to say that the US deserve 9/11 is .

I agree, its crazy. I didn't say this, howerver, I said it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Oh, just a rant then I see.

Why don't you just cut the BS, we're not in junior high school anymore, look in a dictionary or ask a professor about the difference between probability and justice.

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]Now the US has done some fuck up things. However, did a lot of positive in this world

Where am I denying this?

Quote[/b] ]Furthermore, to say that the US deserve 9/11 is   .

I agree, its crazy. I didn't say this, howerver, I said it was bound to happen sooner or later.

Oh, just a rant then I see.

Why don't you just cut the BS, we're not in junior high school anymore, look in a dictionary or ask a professor about the difference between probability and justice.

Bad day, eh? Just needed some clarification.

[bn880 5]

Not a bad day at all, maybe you should quote what you want to quote.

What is a rant you mean? Two totally different logical statements there, I assumed you made the rant comment for last one.

[billybob2002 0]

Not a bad day at all, maybe you should quote what you want to quote.

What is a rant you mean? Two totally different logical statements there, I assumed you made the rant comment for last one.

His post had a lot of and etc.

[Harnu 0]

Ok, lets say that is the reason, which it's not. Did civilians deserve to die? Why not attack a military base? WHY? TELL ME RIGHT NOW! WHY?!!!!!

I would have thought it was fairly obvious.

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]Thank you. though it is the Air Force not the Army. Im gonna be a fly boy not a ground pounder.

If you fly like you spell, you'll just end up doing your enemies a favor.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

I think this slogan "What comes around goes around" is not not unfair but simply inapropriate.

Why do we see so much islamic fundamentalism nowadays. Why is this religion getting more extreme? Well simple as that.

We all know that the european age of enlightment has led to a lot of things.. mainly the seperation of state and religion, the social emancipation, and freedom of thought.

Since then those countries that took part in it turned more and more atheist.

I think the influence of the west on muslim nations is so extreme that the islam itself is now trying to protect itself from enlightment, from emancipation, and freedom of thought.

Not because it opposes those ideas, but because they lead to its destruction.

No age was ever as destructive to religion as the age of enlightment. Since then, the christian church has basically lost its power on us. The islam and its conservative profiters try to prevent just that.

Bin Laden is not fighting the US for its foreign policies, but for its export power. The decadence of the US in breaking cultural rules and destroying cultural ecosystems for the sake of exanpanding its export markets is the only reason for 911. Would germany have had the same agressive strategy then the planes would now have flown into the Reichstag.

[quicksand 0]

Militant groups control 60 percent of Fallujah: witnesses

Quote[/b] ]NEAR FALLUJAH, Iraq, Nov. 21 (Xinhuanet) -- Militant groups in battle-torn Fallujah have controlled 60 percent of the central Iraqi city and surrounded dozens of US Marines in Jolan district,witnesses said Sunday.

"Defenders of the city are controlling 60 percent of the city and they are encircling dozens of US soldiers in Jolan neighborhood," eyewitnesses who managed to sneak out of the city told Xinhua.

Residents of Fallujah said the southern part of Fallujah, whichis still under control of the militant groups, constitutes the larger part of the city, and US troops only control the north andsmall eastern spots in the city.

"Some American troops are based in government buildings and the yare pounded by fighters," they said.

"In daytime, groups of mujahedeen (Holy War fighters) engage with hit-and-run attacks with US Marines, and at the same time they gear themselves up for the night battles," they said.Fierce fighting and loud explosions resonated throughout Jolan district before the sunset.

US troops continued pounding the area as plumes and columns ofsmoke covered the sky over Jolan and the southern al-Shuhadaa district.

Early this month, US and Iraqi forces launched a major offensiveto crush insurgents, including Zarqawi group, in Fallujah, 50 km west of Baghdad.

About one week later, the US military claimed it had controlled the city. Enditem

Take it with a grain of salt if you wish,but what the hell is happening in the city?Displaced Iraqis are still not allowed to go back into the city,the US deathtoll climbs steadeldy at every briefing now at 55,humanitarian convoys are still not allowed to enter the city,Red Cross claims the situation is dire and thousands of civillains still lack the basic necesities.

[EiZei 0]

WW1 y WW2.

Oh please, WW1 was probably one of the major fuck-ups of the american foreign policy, there were no bad guys and the humiliation of germany helped Hitler to rise in power. You maybe saved UK's ass because of their huge debt but not anybody elses. WW2 might have some point but why im not seeing russians saying that same stupid cliche in chechnya/etc. discussions even though they lost hell lot more people, especially civilians who were pretty much spared back in stateside.