The Iraq thread 4

[ran 0]

I'm back just when Bals leaves ....

Good luck, avoid eating too much dust and enjoy the afghan landscapes.

See you soon and in one piece

[Commander-598 0]

Is this a one-off event or the beginning of something bigger?

Quote[/b] ]The Army is investigating members of a Reserve unit in Iraq who refused to deliver a fuel shipment to a town north of Baghdad under conditions they considered unsafe, the Pentagon and relatives of the soldiers said Friday. Several soldiers called it a "suicide mission," relatives said.

Up to 19 members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company were detained at gunpoint for nearly two days after disobeying orders to drive trucks that they said had not been serviced and were not being escorted by armed vehicles to Taji, about 15 miles north of Baghdad, relatives said after speaking to some of the soldiers.

-- SF Chronicle

And, does anyone know if such soldiers would be provided with fireproof garments like those worn by race car drivers and pit crews?

Definitely a "one-off" event.

Suicide mission...? I doubt it.

[EiZei 0]

Is this a one-off event or the beginning of something bigger?

Quote[/b] ]The Army is investigating members of a Reserve unit in Iraq who refused to deliver a fuel shipment to a town north of Baghdad under conditions they considered unsafe, the Pentagon and relatives of the soldiers said Friday. Several soldiers called it a "suicide mission," relatives said.

Up to 19 members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company were detained at gunpoint for nearly two days after disobeying orders to drive trucks that they said had not been serviced and were not being escorted by armed vehicles to Taji, about 15 miles north of Baghdad, relatives said after speaking to some of the soldiers.

-- SF Chronicle

And, does anyone know if such soldiers would be provided with fireproof garments like those worn by race car drivers and pit crews?

Definitely a "one-off" event.

Suicide mission...? I doubt it.

Driving a truck full of gasoline in sunni triangle with clear american markings without any escorts could be quite dangerous.

[BoweryBaker 0]

Just remember Bals, these wars against these tyrants we fight are so that if America ever goes off the map or meets its end by any means, the world will know we didn't stand in vain, but that we fought for the inalienable rights of all mankind.

Edit:  Oops your German, wait...   Okay.  

Just remember Bals, these wars against these tyrants we fight are so that when we leave this world the world will know that didn't fight in vain, but that we fought for the inalienable rights of all mankind......which I don't think are in jeopardy right now...

[Tovarish 0]

Past Sunday now, but if you're checking this in those first 2-3 days - take care of yourself over there Bals

[Baphomet 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just remember Bals, these wars against these tyrants we fight are so that if America ever goes off the map or meets its end by any means, the world will know we didn't stand in vain, but that we fought for the inalienable rights of all mankind.

... By picking off small comparitively defenseless countries that are run by internally oppressive ne'er do well's.

Hope he finds some WMDs

[EiZei 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just remember Bals, these wars against these tyrants we fight are so that if America ever goes off the map or meets its end by any means, the world will know we didn't stand in vain, but that we fought for the inalienable rights of all mankind.

... By picking off small comparitively defenseless countries that are run by internally oppressive ne'er do well's.

Hope he finds some WMDs

In Afghanistan?

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]Just remember Bals, these wars against these tyrants we fight are so that if America ever goes off the map or meets its end by any means, the world will know we didn't stand in vain, but that we fought for the inalienable rights of all mankind.

... By picking off small comparitively defenseless countries that are run by internally oppressive ne'er do well's.

Hope he finds some WMDs  

In Afghanistan?

They have them too didnt they ? Didnt Bush say so there was a link ? Like AQ = Terrorist = Bad guys mostly arab with beards = muslims = Taliban = no democracy = oppression = Iran their neighbour = Irans Nuke program = WMD program.

Well there you have it thats the link RIGHT THERE

[quicksand 0]

If anyone has the slightest intrest in the Iraq war,has been reading articles connected with the conflict regardless of his position towards his war,proceed in reading this article brought by BBC

Inside besieged Falluja

Quote[/b] ]Residents of the rebel-held city of Falluja in Iraq are packing their bags and leaving town after one of the heaviest US bombardments for weeks.

BBC News Online spoke by phone to a reporter in the city, contacted by the BBC's Arabic Service, who gave the following account of life there.

--------------------------------------

The mood in the city is grim.

It is the start of Ramadan, but there is nowhere to celebrate and no food to celebrate with.

Falluja's most popular kebab restaurant used to be the place to go at the end of the day to break the Ramadan fast - but that was bombed by the Americans this week.

Many families have used a lull in the bombing to leave the city.

Fighters are engaged in skirmishes with US forces in the eastern and southern areas. US positions are about half a kilometre from Falluja.

No single militia force controls the whole city.

Different clans in the city have their own militias but they all seem to be working together to fend off US forces.

The people of Falluja are very clannish - but they have also always been very religious and right now faith is a stronger bond than family.

Police and militias

Two elements have been running the affairs of the city - the police force and local militias.

Relations between the two are good - I have seen policemen on the streets chatting to the fighters.

 

Reclaiming rebel areas  

In fact, relations between local fighters and police have always been good - a deal struck some months ago means the police are welcome in the city provided they do not take orders from the Americans.

There are more police on the streets than usual - possibly to protect the property of residents who are leaving the city.

But the risk of looting is small - the local militias have a reputation for being very tough with the criminals.

No foreign fighters

I am not aware of any foreign fighters in Falluja.

If there are any foreigners here, they have blended in very well with the locals.

Foreigners used to frequent the city in the past, but many of them were forced to leave under a deal the city's leaders struck with the government.

Ninety-nine percent of the fighters here are Fallujans.

Local clan leaders are broadly opposed to any kind of foreign presence in the city because they fear they may be spies.

Supplies exhausted

Hospitals have all but run out of supplies and most people know this.

But still the injured are being taken there - just so that they can be near the doctors and receive some comfort.

The Iraqi health ministry has not sent any extra supplies.

Food supplies are also running out. All shops are shut.

Some people who fled the city a few days ago have begun returning because they ran out of food.

They are coming back even as more and more people are trying to leave.

'Not a sectarian issue'

The ordinary people of Falluja still want a peaceful solution - but they knew war was inevitable when Prime Minister Iyad Allawi issued his ultimatum earlier this week.

That's when they started stocking up on food.

The people believe they are being targeted because they inflicted heavy casualties on US forces during the siege earlier this year.

They say the Americans are attacking them because of wounded pride. They say they are motivated by revenge.

Most people in Falluja believe the Baghdad government is divided into two camps.

They believe the president, Ghazi Yawer, is a Sunni and heads the faction that wants to negotiate a solution to the crisis.

On the other side, they say, is Prime Minister Allawi, a Shia, who believes military force is the only way ahead.

But many people in Falluja, though largely Sunni, dismiss this.

They say Mr Allawi may be a Shia, but this is not why he is at war with Falluja.

They think he simply gives the order to batter Falluja because this is what the Americans want.

Al-Jazeera has been reporting for months the grotesque nature of US bombardments in Fallujah showing footage of maimed civillians and stories of the hardned lifes of Fallujah citizens,I took that with a grain of salt.

Reuters picked up the responsabilty starting to publish on their website media both in pictures and videos of aftermaths of US ''precision strikes'' highliting they were able to roam free among the wreckeges and film with no interdiction from insurgents and showing apaulling pictures of bloodied women and children screaming on streches;desperate men searching in the rubble of flatened buildings for their loved ones only sometimes geting lucky and pulling out 3 year old gasping for breath-right about then I left aside my convictions about this war and went on concentrating and imaginating the horrendeus scene witnessed and felt by Fallujhans on a daily basis but was still waiting for a more in-depth coverage,an insight report from a reputable news agency to confirm or hopefully deny my worst fears.

And thus it comes in the form of this BBC article and yes it finally confirmed my worst fears.First of all it answers one of the most important questions I have been asking myself for a while now that defies all logics.

Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi's group has recived some of the most intense media coverage over the passed few months raising his unknown group to astonoshing notoriety dubbed now ''Americas greatest enemy in Iraq''.It's obvious that one should first ask himself how can a man achieve this status after claiming less then 10 attacks on US troops in their entire activity,troops that came under(and this are official numbers) more then  17 attacks on a daily basis and of course the fact  that number 4 on US military most wanted list Izzat Ibrahim Al-Douri is still at large after a humiliating sharade done by the Iraqi government.Moving past this issue we also stumble on the fact that he has a 25 million bounty on his head,he is widely hated by Iraqis even threatend by Iraqi rebel groups.So would Fallujah citizens really sacrifice hundreads of lifes of women and children,sacrifice 25 million dollars which could be used to buy thousands of weapons raging in size and power,bomb material,even IGLAs,bribe the Interim government and gain allies etc.  

It defied any logic,does't it?Well atleast until now,now I see colective punishment,horrendeus acts of that go against the principles of humanity and civilisation and a biased media that chews up doubtful US claims contradicted by raw footage showing the contrary of their brandashed and aclaimed ''killings of tens of Zarqawi associates''.

I may be somewhat to strong in words and tactless but I find it only suiting in front of such despicable deeds by men willing to sacrifice tens of thousands of lifes to get and lie through their theets to win popularity,suport etc.

[miles teg 1]

That was a well worded post quicksand and normally I would agree with you, however what I have not seen is public intelligence reports as to whether or not continued terrorist attacks in and around Baghdad are coming from Fellujah.  If not, then I would agree...we should leave them the hell alone.  However if indications and evidence is good that indeed most of the attacks upon coalition and Iraqi government forces are coming from Fellujah, then something has to be done.  Negotiations I believe were tried in earnest before by US Marine commanders, but the fact of the matter is that Tawhid wal Jihad is likely to have its headquarters in Fellujah as that is one of the few areas where Tawhid wal Jihad and similar militant groups have relatively free reign in Iraq.  It was not by accident that shortly after the last peace deal was carried out that harsh Shariat law went into effect in Fellujah.  This was partly done to perhaps force out more secular Iraqis remaining in Fellujah who may side with the central government in Baghdad.  

IF..and I repeat IF (as I'm not privy to classified intelligence reports) there is firm evidence that Tawhid wal Jihad is using Fellujah as a headquarters from which to coordinate and launch terrorist attacks, then a peace deal will likely not work.

The issue is not about restoring law and order in Fellujah.  It is about destroying the headquarters of militant groups in Iraq.

The Shi'a uprising was controlled through usage of both military power and diplomacy in several of the major Shi'a holy sites and for right now things seem to be stabilizing in the Sadr City neighborhood of Baghdad largely in part because of the influece of Al-Sadr...so that peace treaty is paying off and the Shi'a militants seem to be more convinced that the US and the Iraqi government is sincere about bringing them into the political process.

But I think that there is no doubt that Tawhid wal Jihad's influence upon the Sunni communities in Iraq is very deep making a similar process in Fellujah unlikely.  The Sunni's are on the short end of the stick and I believe that there is alot of sympathy for them in much of the Arab world especially amongst Wahabi, Salefi and other more fundamentalist sects who are likely to be supporting Sunni militant groups extensively.

It is I think possible to have dialog even with groups like Tawhid wal Jihad.  The problem however is that they are made up of many different independent groups under that banner so it may be very difficult to negotiate with all of these groups.  You'll likely get some young hot head commander of an Iraqi militant group who will violate a cease fire and continue terrorist operations against colation and Iraqi government forces.   I do think that such dialog and negotiations should be attempted however I believe the likelyhood for success is very very small as the US is not going to forgive the beheadings of all the Americans and foreigners by Tawhid wal Jihad and similar groups.

Because of this, I think that most likely a military solution is the only option.  

The military solution is NOT pretty.  Yes civilians will suffer and die horrifically.  This is what happens in any war.  War is horrible.  A siege of a city is one of the most horrible things in war and Fellujah is not exception.  There is no pretty way to take a city in war. Even if we used NO bombs, tanks, helicopters, or artillery, simple rifles, grenades, and handheld rockets would kill and maim hundreds of civilians...and at the cost of many more American lives.

But once it is taken, I think that most likely it will substantially decrease the amount of terrorist attacks in Iraq.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[denoir 0]

Al-Zarqawi and a handful of extremists are hardly the problem. They may behead hostages and do the occasional car-bombing, but they are relatively small scale.

The big problem if the organized resistance that attacks the new Iraqi police and military forces as well as the occupation forces.

As it turns out though, the most death and destruction is caused by the coalition and Iraqi forces. I think that is very much worth noting as it puts things into perspective.

[miles teg 1]

Determining which of those thousands of deaths were caused directly by coalition/Iraqi government forces would be extremely difficult.   Also I've never heard of that particular media publication although I'm not saying they are incorrect in their information.   However if I remember correctly I thought that the Iraqi government ordered its health ministry to quit keeping records of Iraqi deaths.

The article also says:

"The numbers also exclude those whose bodies were too mutilated to be recovered at car bombings or other attacks, the ministry said.

Ministry officials said they didn't know how big the undercount was. "We have nothing to do with politics," Jassim said."

It also doesn't state the nature of the wounds or documentation of the situations in which the bodies were recovered.  I have no doubt that many civilians are dying by American attacks on suspected militant targets however pointng the finger at who has the highest body count (US vs. Iraqi/foreign militants) does nothing to solve the issue at hand.  The only main point of relevance of that issue is that indeed the more civilians the US/coalition forces kill, the more surviving family members there are who will seek revenge and either directly or indirectly support the militants fighting the US/coalition forces and Iraqi government forces.

I am not a big believer in the use of massive military force in the war on terror except where clear and present dangers exist.   However in the case of Fellujah, I don't see alot of alternatives. Furthermore I do believe that Al-Zarqawi's group is highly influential. This because in almost every attack on US forces you tend to immediately see Tawhid wal Jihad flags being displayed in front of Al-Jazeera cameras celebrating the attack.

While certainly many Iraqis likely hate Al-Zarqawi (especially Shi'a) I think it is likely that many Iraqi's (especially more fundamentalist oriented Sunni's) are big supporters of Al-Zarqawi and Tawhid wal Jihad.

 

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[DarkLight 0]

hmmmm

i saw a building on tv that used to have radioactive stuff inside it...

sad enough, that was before the iraqis looted the place...

Battle against terrorism, my ass...

There aren't even enough soldiers in Iraq to protect all the buildings like this one

it's a beautiful daaaaaaaay! the suuun is shiiiniiiiinng! *sigh*

[Acecombat 0]

Quote[/b] ]it's a beautiful daaaaaaaay! the suuun is shiiiniiiiinng! *sigh*

Such a nice day for Nuking the world *sigh*

[ralphwiggum 6]

.

http://www.cnn.com/2004....ex.html

Quote[/b] ]NEW YORK (CNN) -- The founder of the U.S. Christian Coalition said Tuesday he told President George W. Bush before the invasion of Iraq that he should prepare Americans for the likelihood of casualties, but the president told him, "We're not going to have any casualties."

Pat Robertson, an ardent Bush supporter, said he had that conversation with the president in Nashville, Tennessee, before the March 2003 invasion. He described Bush in the meeting as "the most self-assured man I've ever met in my life."

"You remember Mark Twain said, 'He looks like a contented Christian with four aces.' I mean he was just sitting there like, 'I'm on top of the world,' " Robertson said on the CNN show, "Paula Zahn Now."

"And I warned him about this war. I had deep misgivings about this war, deep misgivings. And I was trying to say, 'Mr. President, you had better prepare the American people for casualties.' "

Robertson said the president then told him, "Oh, no, we're not going to have any casualties."

Robertson, the televangelist who sought the Republican presidential nomination in 1988, said he wishes Bush would admit to mistakes made.

"I mean, the Lord told me it was going to be A, a disaster, and B, messy," Robertson said. "I warned him about casualties."

More than 1,100 U.S. troops have died in Iraq and another 8,000 troops have been wounded in the ongoing campaign, with the casualty toll significantly increasing in the last six months as the insurgency there has deepened.

Asked why Bush has refused to admit to mistakes on Iraq, Robertson said, "I don't know this politics game. You know, you can never say you were wrong because the opposition grabs onto it: 'See, he admitted he screwed up.' "

Even as Robertson criticized Bush for downplaying the potential dangers of the Iraq war, he heaped praise on Bush, saying he believes the president will win the election and that "the blessing of heaven is on Bush."

"Even if he stumbles and messes up -- and he's had his share of stumbles and gaffes -- I just think God's blessing is on him," Robertson said.

As for Bush's Democratic rival, Sen. John Kerry, Robertson said, "I don't think he's a leader. He's a ponderous debater, a good senator probably."

[billybob2002 0]

(removed link due to picture)

Quote[/b] ]

Reservists Refuse Mission In Iraq

I watched Al Hunt on CNN say that Reservists were refusing to fight in Iraq. He's wrong. Some Reservists are refusing to transport fuel in Iraq. There's a difference.

Over the weekend, I've received over thirty emails asking for an opinion about the Reservists refusing to transport fuel in Iraq - they called it a "suicide mission".

On October 13th, eighteen (out of 100) soldiers of the 343rd Quartermaster Company, a reserve unit from Rock Hill, S.C., failed to show up Wednesday for the fuel convoy's departure for a 150-mile trip to Taji, north of Baghdad. The 343rd has been in Iraq since February. The soldiers refused to drive the transports due to many reasons (reported by the media):

(1) lack of armored vehicles - according to preliminary findings, the 343rd did not have up-armored vehicles upon arriving in Iraq and did not receive upgrades while in Iraq.

(2) lack of vehicles that were not deadlined (meaning safe or able to operate correctly) - for example, a broken fuel injector could keep a vehicle from operating.

(3) lack of convoy security in the form of MP humvees or helicopter gunship support - this is in dispute right now.

(4) the fuel they were supposed to transport was alledgely contaminated - this is in dispute right now.

(5) the trip from Talil to Taji is one of the most dangerous in Iraq.

Other soldiers from the same company completed the mission for the eighteen who refused it. BTW, the route from Talil to Taji IS one of the most dangerous routes in Iraq.

The small unit leadership of the unit (lieutenants and captains) was lacking - that's an understatement - in order for this to occur. I don't mean that some future General Patton is going to kick things into gear, but somebody was supposed to keep the vehicles maintained, the fuel pure, and the unit protected on it's missions. How far would you go to get your vehicles armored? Would you find the steel to ensure your soldiers are taken care of...? Apparently, the unit's soldiers complained about the lack of armor to their chain of command.

The military gives a three part rule to disobey an order: Is the order illegal, immoral, or unethical? This doesn't even come close to passing the rule for disobedience.

To me, it boils down to extremely poor leadership. My opinion is that the leadership's mind set was to accept their situation, and it looks to me like they did nothing to improve it. It seems that the 343rd had a cushy mission for the most part of their tour and didn't continue to focus on a combat mind-set. Most soldiers will tell you that you never stop training. There is no finale, no finish-line. Always keep improving and testing. It's not easy or fun, but any other focus will get you and your men and women killed.

There isn't any indication at this point that the (Officer) leadership of the company tried to do everything in their power to increase the survival of their unit - either by training their soldiers in combat skills or by getting their soldiers the equipment they needed to perform their mission. And sometimes, you have to take matters into your own hands. Whether that's getting steel for armor on the Iraqi black market or bribing people to get your vehicles armored and protected by escorts or by initiating a Congressional or Inspector General Inquiry, that's what you have to do.

That's what I think as of today. There might be more details forthcoming but don't count on it. This is about the fine line between doing everything to protect your troops and getting every mission accomplished. It's a very delicate matter for all of the troops in Iraq. The command has to send the right signal to the rest of the soldiers who continue to accept their dangerous missions (the missions are dangerous but not "suicidal").

While the disobeyers might get General Discharges, the command structure in Iraq probably won't convene a court-martial. The 343rd will probably get new leadership and the command will retrain them and equip them properly. And they'll probably serve with distinction.

Sometimes to you have to break something in order to fix it properly.

Update 10-19-04: I have received tons of email about this issue. Many want to know why I am not being tougher on the "mutineers". I appreciate all of your opinions and ideas and criticisms. Thank you.

The soldiers refusing to complete any mission should be punished and will be punished...probably with Article 15s and a select few may get worse. That's what I think will happen, not what I would do in that situation.

The main point is that the soldiers may have had some legitimate concerns with their mission, leadership, and equipment. HOWEVER, they used the wrong means to fix the problem. So, the unit needs to get fixed - leadership and equipment - AND the soldiers need to be punished. Those still kept in service will need to be retrained as well. I believe that I was clear about that.

The junior leadership of the unit is still the main problem. This would never have happened with a unit that was led by mediocre officers and sergeants...let alone good ones.

Fair and balanced.

[billybob2002 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....dict_dc

Quote[/b] ]

U.S. Soldier Sentenced to 8 Years for Iraq Abuse

9 minutes ago   Top Stories - Reuters

By Terry Friel

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick was sentenced to eight years in prison on Thursday for sexually and physically abusing Iraqi detainees at Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

At a court martial near Baghdad airport, Judge Colonel James Pohl also sentenced the army reservist to a reduction in rank to private, forfeiture of pay and a dishonorable discharge.

It was the toughest sentence in three convictions to date related to degrading abuses at Abu Ghraib exposed with the publication in April of photographs that outraged the world.

Frederick's lawyer Gary Myers called the sentence excessive and said he intended to appeal to seek a reduction.

Frederick, 38, the most senior enlisted man charged in the Abu Ghraib scandal, had pleaded guilty to five charges of abusing detainees at the facility in October and November last year, including making three prisoners masturbate.

He punched one detainee so hard in the chest that he needed resuscitation. Frederick, a prison guard in civilian life, attached wires to another man, telling him he could be electrocuted if he stepped off a box.

In one of the most notorious incidents linked to the charges, naked prisoners were also made to form a human pyramid.

Major Michael Holley, the military prosecutor, told the court Frederick was an adult able to tell right from wrong.

"How much training do you need to learn that it's wrong to force a man to masturbate?" he asked.

Myers said that while it was right to punish Frederick, the military establishment must share the responsibility.

"Punish him, yes. But please try to understand the defense's point of view that there is corporate responsibility," he said.

Two other U.S. soldiers have previously been sentenced to between eight months and a year in jail after pleading guilty to abuses at Abu Ghraib, a jail notorious for executions and torture under Saddam Hussein (news - web sites). Five more face courts martial.

PLEA BARGAIN

Judge Pohl originally sentenced Frederick to 10 years in prison, but cut this to eight years because of a plea bargain.

In his court testimony on Wednesday, Frederick admitted beating and humiliating prisoners, saying he had been trying to prepare them for interrogation. He pleaded guilty to charges that included indecent acts, dereliction of duty and assault.

"I knew it was wrong at the time because I knew it was a form of abuse," Frederick told the court.

Frederick painted a picture of life inside the jail in which prisoners were stripped naked, sometimes dressed in women's underwear and physically and mentally abused.

He also told how Iraqi police smuggled in guns and drugs for prisoners and how he was too scared to report the abuses.

"I was afraid of retaliation by other soldiers. We all walked around with loaded weapons. It was very high stress."

In all, seven military police personnel and an intelligence soldier have been indicted for involvement in the abuses.

A top-level U.S. inquiry blamed the military chain of command, right up to Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, for creating conditions that allowed the abuses to take place.

Witnesses in Frederick's trial said the CIA (news - web sites) sometimes directed abuse and orders were received from military command to toughen interrogations.

The evidence, from an officer and a chief warrant officer who served at the jail, is among the strongest so far in the Abu Ghraib trials pointing to more senior involvement in the abuse.

Previously, the Pentagon (news - web sites) has said that the abuses were the work of a few "bad apples" acting on their own.

[denoir 0]

U.S Finishes A 'Strong Second' In Iraq War

Quote[/b] ]

BAGHDAD—After 19 months of struggle in Iraq, U.S. military officials conceded a loss to Iraqi insurgents Monday, but said America can be proud of finishing "a very strong second."

"We went out there, gave it our all, and fought a really good fight," said Gen. George W. Casey, the top U.S. commander in Iraq. "America's got nothing to be ashamed of. We outperformed Great Britain, Poland, and a lot of the other top-notch nations, but Iraq just wouldn't stay down for the count. It may have come down to them simply wanting it more."

American tanks and infantry surged out to an impressive early lead in March 2003, scoring major points by capturing Baghdad early in the faceoff. The stage seemed set for a second American victory in as many clashes with Iraq, with commentators and generals alike declaring the contest all but decided with the fall of Tikrit in April 2003.

"In spite of jumping out to an early lead and having the better-trained, better-equipped team, I'm afraid we still came up short in the end," Casey said. "Sometimes, the underdog just pulls one out on you. But there's no reason for the guys who were out in the field to feel any shame over this one. They played through pain and injury and never questioned the strategy, even when we started losing ground."

"The troops were great out there," Casey continued. "It's not their fault the guys with the clipboards just couldn't put this one away."

Casey said that, although the U.S. military did not win, it did set records for kills, yardage gained, palaces overrun, defensive stops, and military bases stolen.

"The Americans can be proud of the numbers," Casey said. "All things considered, there was some very impressive maneuvering out there. We kept the folks at home on the edge of their seats, that's for sure."

PFC Brian Walters was part of a squad defending Fallujah for the past three months.

"We're looking at an opponent who just keeps coming at you until the echo of the whistle," Walters said. "I gotta hand it to them, they weren't gonna roll over. We were just out there playing not to lose."

Former civil administrator of Iraq L. Paul Bremer said the U.S. troops performed admirably, adding that overconfidence may have been a factor.

"After that strong start, I really thought that we were going to take it home," Bremer said. "I'd say we can chalk this loss up to a combination of Iraq's home-field advantage and a poor second-half U.S. game plan."

U.S. offensive captain John Baptiste of the 656th Infantry said that his fellow troops "were solid to the end," adding that he was disappointed in U.S. leaders' decision to call the game so early.

"The chief should never come out at halftime and call it 'Mission Accomplished,'" Baptiste said. "You never say that until the clock runs out. My guys did their best, but we've gotta remember that everyone plays to the final gun."

Loyal fans of the U.S. are still coming to terms with the loss, a rarity for an organization that won undisputed world championships in the '10s and '40s, but has not always played its best on hostile ground in recent years. What kind of a defense was that in the final quarter of 2003?" said retired Air Force colonel Charles Carruthers, now a professor at the Army War College at West Point. "The field generals all thought they had Iraq on the ropes, but no one told the Iraqis, who just kept nickel-and-diming them to death. In the end, our guys were getting absolutely shelled out there. You can't blame the men for that. That's underestimating the opposition."

Added Carruthers: "You'd think they hadn't even scouted their opponent beforehand, let alone beaten them soundly the last time they squared off. Someone should lose his job over this."

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld refused to take questions from reporters, saying that "Monday-morning quarterbacking never solved anything."

"Injuries and a shallow bench were major factors," Rumsfeld said, speaking to angry team boosters in Washington. "We've lost about 75 guys every month for the past year."

"But remember that this was just one war," Rumsfeld added. "We'll get 'em next time."

The Onion

[billybob2002 0]

Quote[/b] ]U.S Finishes A 'Strong Second' In Iraq War

I hope you know that website is a humor one...

[denoir 0]

Quote[/b] ]U.S Finishes A 'Strong Second' In Iraq War

I hope you know that website is a humor one...

The Onion? Noooooooo.. It's "America's Finest News Source"

Of course the Onion is a serious news source, just as FOX News is an unbiased news organization excelling in journalistic professionalism.

[billybob2002 0]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm....taff_dc

Quote[/b] ]

UN Turns to U.S. Troops to Guard Its Staff in Iraq

Wed Oct 20, 4:34 PM ET World - Reuters

By Evelyn Leopold

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The United Nations (news - web sites) no longer objects to American soldiers to guard its staff in Iraq (news - web sites) after the search for separate contingents from around the world failed, diplomats and U.N. sources said on Wednesday.

A separate brigade was to have protected U.N. staff, especially before the planned January elections, when they left the fortified Green Zone in Baghdad. Fijian troops will arrive next month to guard them in the Green Zone.

U.N. officials originally distanced themselves from American troops when traveling outside of Baghdad, believing their staff would become more of a target of the sporadic and growing violence in the country.

But without volunteers, the United Nations asked the U.S. command of the Multinational Force to supply protection, whether or not American soldiers were involved, diplomats said.

"We can't just treat them as undesirables," said one U.N. official, speaking on condition of anonymity.

U.N. spokeswoman Marie Okabe said the United Nations was in discussions with the United States "on a unit of the Multinational Force dedicated to protection of U.N. perimeter security." She did not elaborate.

Secretary-General Kofi Annan (news - web sites) said in London on Tuesday he had tried to raise a brigade but "we haven't done very well."

"And it's the same governments who are asking me to send in my civilian staff who are not going to give any troops to protect them," he said.

FIJI GUARDS

Okabe on Wednesday announced officially that about 130 troops from Fiji, as expected, would arrive next month to serve as bodyguards and protect U.N. facilities within the Green Zone, with Australia providing equipment.

"These contributions are critical to the U.N.'s efforts to strengthen the security arrangements for its personnel in Iraq," she said, "This would make it possible for the United Nations to consider expanding its activities in Iraq as circumstances permit."

Annan pulled out international staff last October after two attacks on U.N. offices in Baghdad. The first bombing killed 22 people, including chief of mission Sergio Vieira de Mello.

In August, a small contingent took up residence in the Green Zone. But Annan imposed a ceiling of 35 staff because of the violence.

The world body is considering some 25 election experts, six of whom are now in the country, a far cry from original plans for more than 250 staff.

Iraqi officials have repeatedly criticized the United Nations for its reluctance to field more staff.

Foreign Minister Hoshiyar Zebari on Wednesday urged the United Nations to do more to help prepare for the elections. He noted the 300 election experts the world body had sent to tiny East Timor (news - web sites).

"We call on the U.N. to accelerate their support and their presence in Iraq because time is short and we need a genuine engagement and involvement from the international organization to help us conduct these crucial elections," Zebari told reporters.

Annan, during his London visit, said quelling the violence was essential for the elections.

"You cannot have the kind of smooth elections that we have talked about, the early successful election in Afghanistan (news - web sites), that we would want to (see) in Iraq in January. And therefore to pacify the environment would be extremely helpful," Annan said.

Anybody got stats on the Fiji military...

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you people talk alot about stuff you have no clue about! ! ! ! !

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you people talk alot about stuff you have no clue about! ! ! ! !

ar·gu·ment Audio pronunciation of "argument" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ärgy-mnt)

1. A course of reasoning aimed at demonstrating truth or falsehood: presented a careful argument for extraterrestrial life.

2. A fact or statement put forth as proof or evidence; a reason: The current low mortgage rates are an argument for buying a house now.

Maybe that will get you started.

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you people talk alot about stuff you have no clue about! ! ! ! !

Good, maybe we'll figure something out. As you can probably see, the reason for talking about it is to know more. And you are welcome to enlighten all.

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Is this a one-off event or the beginning of something bigger?

Quote[/b] ]The Army is investigating members of a Reserve unit in Iraq who refused to deliver a fuel shipment to a town north of Baghdad under conditions they considered unsafe, the Pentagon and relatives of the soldiers said Friday. Several soldiers called it a "suicide mission," relatives said.

Up to 19 members of the 343rd Quartermaster Company were detained at gunpoint for nearly two days after disobeying orders to drive trucks that they said had not been serviced and were not being escorted by armed vehicles to Taji, about 15 miles north of Baghdad, relatives said after speaking to some of the soldiers.

-- SF Chronicle

And, does anyone know if such soldiers would be provided with fireproof garments like those worn by race car drivers and pit crews?

Definitely a "one-off" event.

Suicide mission...? I doubt it.

Driving a truck full of gasoline in sunni triangle with clear american markings without any escorts could be quite dangerous.

good argument you proved my point no convoy rolls without escorts their complait was lack of armoure on the trucks

nice try though