The Iraq thread 4

[turms 0]

Quote[/b] ]You know I probably could find a news article that said the terrorist have killed more Iraqis, maybe not, but I think I could.

Please do provide us with a article like that from a credible source.

Quote[/b] ]Also if you think those guys over there fighting our troops are people figthing for their freedom, then you should really do some thinking about your current mental state.

They are fighting for to end the USA occupation, and to decide for themselfs (laws etc)

Why do you think they fight then? Are you so naiive that you think that they fight becouse for the fun of it, or becouse they are "evil terrorists" ?

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Quote[/b] ]You know I probably could find a news article that said the terrorist have killed more Iraqis, maybe not, but I think I could.

Please do provide us with a article like that from a credible source.  

Quote[/b] ]Also if you think those guys over there fighting our troops are  people figthing for their freedom, then you should really do some thinking about your current mental state.

They are fighting for to end the USA occupation, and to decide for themselfs (laws etc)

Why do you think they fight then? Are you so naiive that you think that they fight becouse for the fun of it, or becouse they are "evil terrorists" ?

Was Denoirs credible?

Ofcourse they fight for the fun of it! Who would not? Many fighters are not even Iraqis. Why would I blow up my own people to end the U.S. occupation? No these people are not fighting for freedom, becuase they do not know what it is. They have never known it, and sadly probably never will. If I do end up going to Iraq, I will not be fighting people who are defending their homeland, I will be figthing people who hate mine beacuase of what it stands for.

[denoir 0]

Was Denoirs credible?

It's by the Iraqi Health Ministry - the only ones that are doing an official body count. So it can hardly be any data that would be more credible than theirs.

Quote[/b] ]If I do end up going to Iraq, I will not be fighting people who are defending their homeland, I will be figthing people who hate mine beacuase of what it stands for.

Then you'll end up court martialed for not following orders. They fight you because they hate your country? It was you who invaded them for fuck's sake. They didn't do anything to you. They had nothing against you until you started dropping bombs on them.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]Ofcourse they fight for the fun of it! Who would not? Many fighters are not even Iraqis. Why would I blow up my own people to end the U.S. occupation? No these people are not fighting for freedom, becuase they do not know what it is. They have never known it, and sadly probably never will. If I do end up going to Iraq, I will not be fighting people who are defending their homeland, I will be figthing people who hate mine beacuase of what it stands for.

Do you find it strange that people foreign to Iraq fight your troops?

This is not at all strange. Your nation are considered by most people in the middle east to be an agressive colonial power in an area plagued by that kind of experience. During the Winter war between Finland and Soviet thousands of Norwegians and Swedes voluntary faught the big bear. The only reason for this was the uneveness between little Finland and the military power of Soviet and a great concern about Soviet expansion in the rest of Scandinavia.

You might not be communists but in their eyes you arn't a whole lot better!

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Was Denoirs credible?

It's by the Iraqi Health Ministry - the only ones that are doing an official body count. So it can hardly be any data that would be more credible than theirs.

Quote[/b] ]If I do end up going to Iraq, I will not be fighting people who are defending their homeland, I will be figthing people who hate mine beacuase of what it stands for.

Then you'll end up court martialed for not following orders. They fight you because they hate your country? It was you who invaded them for fuck's sake. They didn't do anything to you. They had nothing against you until you started dropping bombs on them.

Court martialed for what? It is a fact, I will not be fighting people who are freedom fighters, just terrorist. As for that being credible, I would like to check into that a little more, but I am pretty lazy so you will probably win there.

You got that right, we did invade them, and in my opinion it was the right thing to do. We did not wait around this time till something like 9/11 happend again, we took the offensive. Maybe if you had an idea what it was like to have your country attacked like mine was, you would feel a little different.

Quote[/b] ]Do you find it strange that people foreign to Iraq fight your troops?

This is not at all strange. Your nation are considered by most people in the middle east to be an agressive colonial power in an area plagued by that kind of experience. During the Winter war between Finland and Soviet thousands of Norwegians and Swedes voluntary faught the big bear. The only reason for this was the uneveness between little Finland and the military power of Soviet and a great concern about Soviet expansion in the rest of Scandinavia.

You might not be communists but in their eyes you arn't a whole lot better!

No, I do not find it strange at all. It makes complete sense to me why this people fight us. They do hate us, and no it is not becuase we are some big bad power that has lots of money. We stand for freedom, one of the few nations in the world that still does, we are not muslim, and most of all we support Israel. This is why they hate us, we have concepts they can not even understand, namely FREEDOM!

[Gollum1 0]

You got that right, we did invade them, and in my opinion it was the right thing to do. We did not wait around this time till something like 9/11 happend again, we took the offensive. Maybe if you had an idea what it was like to have your country attacked like mine was, you would feel a little different.

So Iraqis have to pay for your urgent feeling to "do SOMETHING" against SOME Arabs, instead of concentrating on Al-Qaeda.

That's a great excuse there, "it just felt good at the time".

Do you feel better now? Have you improved your security situation by creating chaos in a country halfway across the world that had nothing to do with 9/11 and posed no threat, and losing troops every day?

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Maybe if you had an idea what it was like to have your country attacked like mine was, you would feel a little different.

Well there you go, why should some fanatical Iraqis feel any different than you do? Don't you see the irony?

Don't get me wrong I supported the war for the sake of getting rid of Saddam Hussein regime. I would have of course wanted to have him removed by coup or assasination rather than war. And during the war I was surprised so few troops were used, Gulf War had 4 times as many so I became bit sceptical about the whole thing.

I admit I believed secularist factions and reason would triumph over there, but the mentality proved to be a whole lot different. It would have worked better in 1991 in the wake of Gulf War and Shia uprisings. But world has changed since that, suicide bombings were introduced and are now a standard tactic against anything.

I never ever believed any of the 9/11 claims or other bullshit you seem to be so keen in believing. I wasn't even very convinced of the WMD claims, although Saddam indeed played crooked poker with inspectors and raised suspicions over the years since 1998.

Quote[/b] ]We stand for freedom, one of the few nations in the world that still does, we are not muslim, and most of all we support Israel. This is why they hate us, we have concepts they can not even understand, namely FREEDOM!

As we have found out some Iraqis just don't want this freedom of yours forced on them. It's regrettable and dissapointing, granted, but not that hard to understand by now.

You are talking like those fighters whatever there are shooting US troops just hate you for 'what you represent'. That is not the case, US is an invader in every sense of the word regardless who was in power previously in Iraq. I do wish it would have turned out better than it did. It's easy for some to say 'hey yeah I supported the war but not the way it was hanlded' afterwards. I'm sceptical that the current situation would have been averted by some post-war measures. Perhaps this was inevitable after all. It's mentality thing you know.

[Donnervogel 0]

This is why they hate us, we have concepts they can not even understand, namely FREEDOM!

to claim the iraqis are not capable of understanding the concept of freedom is just plain stupidity. Those are the same human beings as americans and they are as capable of thinking as americans.

I feel you don't understand the meaning of freedom. Freedom does not mean "as the US does". It means you are free to chose what you want and to do what you want. (Of course there are always laws affecting your freedom to guarantee basic freedom to all.) Anyway. If you give people freedom you have to accept their decission. If you don't accept their decission you did not give them freedom. It's easy as that. And obviously there are quite a number of iraqis who chose a free Iraq. Free of Saddam and free of US occupation. Because they think (and I think they're right) that there is no freedom as long as they are occupied by a foreign power that has it's interests in the region and installed a puppet government.

Even if it hurts me. Free people don't always chose to have a democracy as form of state. History proved that. But if you give them freedom you can't force them to chose the form of state you like.

[Blake 0]

And sometimes people don't want government at all, as it seems to be the case in Somalia for example.

[kerosene 0]

i dont buy that there mostly foreign fighters anyway, look how much the number of (estimated) reisistance fighters has increased over the last year, the iraqis dont want foreign soldiers there just like most american right-wingers would be reaching for their guns if there was a "benign" occupation of the U.S.

If foreign terrorist organisations were planning to move in large numbers to Iraq wouldnt it be detected by either U.S or an allied intelligence service? It must require planning to move out large numbers of people. If the Iraqi army hadnt been disbanded this problem would be far less severe, the army still could have had hardline Bath'ists removed.

[Balschoiw 0]

Numbers:

AQ linked terrorists operating in Iraq AFTER the invasion:

Quote[/b] ]Terrorist recruitment and action: According to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, al-Qaeda's membership is now at 18,000, with 1,000 active in Iraq

AQ linked terrorists operating in Iraq BEFORE the invasion:

0-50 if any at all

Resistance formed of Iraq´s citizens :

Quote[/b] ]Estimated strength of Iraqi resistance skyrockets: Because the US military occupation remains in place, the "transition" has failed to win Iraqi support or diminish Iraqi resistance to the occupation. According to Pentagon estimates, the number of Iraqi resistance fighters has quadrupled between November of 2003 and early September 2004, from 5,000 to 20,000. The deputy commander of coalition forces in Iraq, British Major-General Andrew Graham, indicated to Time magazine in early September that he thinks the 20,000 estimate is too low; he estimates Iraqi resistance strength at 40,000-50,000. This rise is even starker when juxtaposed to Brookings Institution estimates that an additional 24,000 Iraqi resistance fighters have been detained or killed between May 2003 and August 2004

So it´s all foreign forces , right ?

Duke_of_ray, do us a favour and read before you post. Your ideas are pretty hard to understand with the currrent status of info that is available to everyone.

And the Freedom thing....well no comment. I hope your opinion is just a joke. At least that´s what it looks like...

[Gollum1 0]

You know Duke of Ray, if you came in with your little "hating America for its freedom" theory into a meeting of the 10 top U.S foreign policy experts discussing the hostility towards America, I bet you would be laughed out of the room. Literally laughed out.

Maybe you'd like to add the classic "They're just jealous" to your theory too?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]And sometimes people don't want government at all, as it seems to be the case in Somalia for example.

"Seems" is the best suitable word as they indeed seek some kind of elected government form but the clans are simply too strong and infrastructure is so wasted that even countrywide communications don´t work. In a land of nomads and refugees, hunger and khat, misled islamists, clans rapoing the country, shattered by civil war for that long time other powers have taken over control. That does not mean people don´t want something else, but they just don´t stand a chance. That´s Somalia 2004. Although a more indeep discussion in another thread would be very much appreciated by me. Somalia is a personal issue to me, as you might know.

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]No, I do not find it strange at all. It makes complete sense to me why this people fight us. They do hate us, and no it is not becuase we are some big bad power that has lots of money. We stand for freedom, one of the few nations in the world that still does, we are not muslim, and most of all we support Israel. This is why they hate us, we have concepts they can not even understand, namely FREEDOM!

A lot of people hate you, and apart from your gunboat diplomacy and your tragic past in interfering on behalf of the tyrants of the world I'd say your above argument is the prime reason why people feel hostile towards you!

What kind of freedom are your nation a shining example of?

Hell, I'd say most nations in the western hemisphere provides their citizens with a lot more personal freedom than you do in the USA.

[turms 0]

Ive heard that there is northern somalia that has a goverment, and then the southern somalia which is ruled by the clans.. Am i everywhere near?

[Llauma 0]

What kind of freedom are your nation a shining example of?

Hell, I'd say most nations in the western hemisphere provides their citizens with a lot more personal freedom than you do in the USA.

USA had more freedom in 1776 than the European nations who had ruling kings or something similar. But the thing is that the amount of freedom the people have in USA is the same now as then while the rest of the western world has evolved.

[Balschoiw 0]

Somalia is currently ruled by about two dozen warlords. One of these warlords shall be picked for head of the new government. The deciding process on whome to choose for head of government is very hard as they are all warlords and think (well...) that once a single warlord is in power he will serve his clan only. The country itself is spilt into regions that are controlled by the warlords, I´m not going as far to call them provinces , as the borders are not fixed and the whole solmali deal is a pretty washy thing. It can´t be compared to any national structure we know. It´s anarachy trying to get a grip on something like a governmental status. You can already see by the lineup for head of government that it will not improve the situation.

Northern "provinces" like Somaliland and Puntland have regular firefights on violation borders that don´t even exist. It´s a freaked out situation and the people of Somalia and the trapped refugees from Ethiopia pay the price.

One major opponent of the unfied warlord government, Warlord General Morgan who has been defeated in a battle at the southern port of Kismayo lately, where his men fought the Jubba Valley Alliance, with 800 fighters involved, has now agreed to join the the warlords on forming the government.

I guess you can already see how weird the situation is down there....

The election date is set to 10th of october. It was delayed from from september to october because of Morgan.

It´s useless anyway as the president will be a warlord with a government of warlords.

Say gangsters get to power supported by gangsters, controlled by gangster....hm...well...as i write this now...makes me think of other countries...  

Anyway, Iraq now  

[kerosene 0]

To quote David Cross: "if Al-queda really hated freedom, Amsterdam would be fucking dust"

[DracoPaladore 0]

To quote David Cross: "if Al-queda really hated freedom, Amsterdam would be fucking dust"

I don't really get it.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

You know, I was going to try to address each of you by post, by that would take to long, and football is about to start. Anyways, many people fighting us in Iraq, are not even from Iraq, and it is probably not real hard to get into the country. These people do not understand freedom becuase they have never experienced it, and never will. Their religion will not allow it. I don't think they are jelous of us, but they do hate hate us for what we stand for, becuase it is what they stand against. They would hate Europe to, but most of the European nations have got so weak and pathetic that they are not even close to what they once were. America is about the last nation that stands for what it believes in, and is not afraid to defend its self, or make some people mad. I just do not understand how you could think these people in Iraq are fighting for their freedom when they are blowing up children, and that is on purpose. How some of you feel just makes me sick, and not because you feel different. It is almost like you support the terrorist over American troops, and British troops, the Aussies, and the Poles. Why?

[DKM Jaguar 0]

You contradict yourself..

Britian is one of those "weak european countries" as you put it and "america  is the only one who stands for what it believes in"  then you go and name 3 countries, 2 of which are european, 1 of which was colonised by europeans, that are "standing for what they believe in". If peoples' views make you feel sick, then they're probably right.

[ralphwiggum 6]

DOR, you've had enough warnings and bans, but because of placebo's generosity, you are back. however, should you try to incite with your rhetorics, you are not welcome.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]They would hate Europe to, but most of the European nations have got so weak and pathetic that they are not even close to what they once were.

So the British Empire should have had the right to keep you as their colony by force since you 'just hate what they represent' and because you conducted unsportsmanlike guerrilla warfare?

Quote[/b] ]America is about the last nation that stands for what it believes in, and is not afraid to defend its self, or make some people mad.

I supported the war but I don't believe such shallow rhetorics you keep repeating constantly.

I do however believe the US military has a role in keeping the peace in the world and forcing it if necessary, like Bosnia and Kosovo where Europe proved it's military and political weakness in the initial 'peace-enforcing' phase. But in every sense Iraq is an invasion of a country and not similiar task than the previous.

Quote[/b] ]I just do not understand how you could think these people in Iraq are fighting for their freedom when they are blowing up children, and that is on purpose.

How can't you see that they are not fighting for your perception of the word freedom. They fight for whatever reasons they find suitable against the occupiers and use barbaric death-despising tactics against their own people regardless the cost. I think this has shocked must of us on this forum. The invasion caused them to resist the US, not what you represented before the war.

Quote[/b] ]It´s useless anyway as the president will be a warlord with a government of warlords.

At least it's a some kind of government which stands somewhat straight when national anthem plays ;)

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Anyways, many people fighting us in Iraq, are not even from Iraq

I already posted about those foreign fighters 2 times. Can´t you read ?

Quote[/b] ]These people do not understand freedom becuase they have never experienced it, and never will.

Who are you to know that ? Have you even been to any ME country in your life ? What do you know about the muslim world ?

Quote[/b] ]Their religion will not allow it.

Huh ? Explain ! Share your knowledge.

Quote[/b] ]They would hate Europe to, but most of the European nations have got so weak and pathetic that they are not even close to what they once were.

What ? Yes , I go okay with not starting another world war. Europe was in flames for more than 2 times and yes, we have learned from that. Yes, we practise tolerance before we bomb someone back to stoneage. If you see that as weakness YOU have not taken part in the evolutionary process of understanding.

Quote[/b] ]America is about the last nation that stands for what it believes in, and is not afraid to defend its self

Defend itself ? In Iraq

Against what ? Huh ? Tell me what threat did Iraq pose to the US !

Tell me !

All this shit-phrases and so called war - reasons you are accounting for. Tell me ! Wich of them have turned out to be true ?

Has any Iraqi soldier killed anyone within the borders of the USA ?

Was anyone aboard the 9/11 flights Iraqi or were the planners for the attack Iraqis or is AQ an iraqi organization ?

Defend ? Against what ? Specify !

Quote[/b] ]fighting for their freedom when they are blowing up children, and that is on purpose.

Proof ? Last time I checked the reports said that the children were called via megaphones to the US convoi. That´s were the bombs went of, at the convoi. The bombs were not at the children. The US called the children to the convoi where they exploded. Purpose ? Yes to kill americans, that was the purpose.

Funny that you don´t say that US kills children on purpose. By your logic they do as they bomb and shell civillian urban areas. Snipers in Sammarra even shoot people who want to pull wounded of the streets and deny ambulances to pass and help wounded and dying people. You talk of purpose ?

Quote[/b] ]It is almost like you support the terrorist over American troops, and British troops, the Aussies, and the Poles.

Easy heh ? Anyone who does not go conform with your patriotic bullshit logic that fails at the moment it is posted is a terrorist sympathizer. Yeah that´s what I call open minded...

[kerosene 0]

Americas one of the, if not the most conservative, religous Western nations. They enforce their own view of freedom on people, what do you think banning gay marraige and helping to prevent the teaching of evolution in schools and birth control in the developing world is?

Bush's government does this because his view of freedom dosent include the rights of the above people, its the same principle as Islamic fundamentalism.

How can you say Muslims will never know freedom, i assume you mean because their religon has whatever restrictions on this and that, how is this different from people who follow other religons?

I dont hate America, but I do hate peole like you.