The Iraq thread 4

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

come to the Point senior Denoir, how precise is such a thing? In what radius do you blow everything to dust? In what radius will houses collapse? And how many meters error margin?  

(do you realy believe they are shooting with laser guided shells there? )

[denoir 0]

np

[denoir 0]

come to the Point senior Denoir, how precise is such a thing? In what radius do you blow everything to dust? In what radius will houses collapse? And how many meters error margin?  

(do you realy believe they are shooting with laser guided shells there? )

Say copperhead laser guidance, m119, medium charge,  distance of say 5 km. I'd say best possible precision ~2 m CEP low angle. You probably won't be able to put the shell through a specific window, but you can most certainly hit the building you want.

As for the damage, it's an 105 mm on the picture. The answer is: not too much. It won't collapse a building with a single shell.

(do you realy believe they are shooting with laser guided shells there? )

Yes. It's cheaper than GPS guidance and they have shitloads of them in stock.

If they don't use any guidance then the imprecision grows to perhaps 10-20m CEP. Still, it's enough to hit the building you want, without blowing up the rest of the block.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

okay, so artillery can actually be pretty precise! I just learned that ...

"If collateral damage and the death of civilian non-combatants is not an issue, then Field Artillery should be employed to their maximum lethality prior to friendly forces entering the MOUT environment. Field Artillery can be very effective when used to deliver laser guided munitions against known enemy fortifications, delay or concrete piercing fuzes also can provide excellent penetration of reinforced structures, fuze time can be adjusted and used against personnel in the streets or on rooftops."

THat I didnt know either! I thought only missiles have this capability.

[denoir 0]

In Fallujah they used MLRS rocked barrages, which are completely unguided. The MLRS is an area destruction weapon. Each rocket carries some 600+ submunitions.

The radius of such a strike is about 150-200 m per rocket and the MLRS system carries 12 of them.

Not nice at all.

[Balschoiw 0]

The costs of Iraqi transition:

Quote[/b] ]The costs of the failed Iraqi transition

(Posted with permission from Foreign Policy in Focus)

Key findings

"A Failed Transition" is the most comprehensive accounting of the mounting costs of the Iraq war on the United States, Iraq and the world. Among its major findings are stark figures about the escalation of costs in these most recent three months of "transition" to Iraqi rule, a period that the Bush administration claimed would be characterized by falling human and economic costs.

1. US military casualties have been highest during the "transition": US military casualties (wounded and killed) stand at a monthly average of 747 since the so-called "transition" to Iraqi rule on June 29. This contrasts with a monthly average of 482 US military casualties during the invasion (March 20-May 1, 2003) and a monthly average of 415 during the occupation (May 2, 2003-June 28, 2004).

2. Non-Iraqi contractor deaths have also been highest during the "transition": There has also been a huge increase in the average monthly deaths of US and other non-Iraqi contractors since the "transition". On average, 17.5 contractors have died each month since the "transition", versus 7.6 contractor deaths per month during the previous 14 months of occupation.

3. Estimated strength of Iraqi resistance skyrockets: Because the US military occupation remains in place, the "transition" has failed to win Iraqi support or diminish Iraqi resistance to the occupation. According to Pentagon estimates, the number of Iraqi resistance fighters has quadrupled between November of 2003 and early September 2004, from 5,000 to 20,000. The deputy commander of coalition forces in Iraq, British Major-General Andrew Graham, indicated to Time magazine in early September that he thinks the 20,000 estimate is too low; he estimates Iraqi resistance strength at 40,000-50,000. This rise is even starker when juxtaposed to Brookings Institution estimates that an additional 24,000 Iraqi resistance fighters have been detained or killed between May 2003 and August 2004.

4. US-led coalition shrinks further after "transition": The number of countries identified as members of the coalition backing the US-led war started with 30 on March 18, 2003, then grew in the early months of the war. Since then, eight countries have withdrawn their troops and Costa Rica has demanded to be taken off the coalition list. At the war's start, coalition countries represented 19.1% of the world's population; today, the remaining countries with forces in Iraq represent only 13.6% of the world's population.

HIGHLIGHTS

I. Costs to the United States

A. Human costs to the US and allies

US military deaths: Between the start of war on March 19, 2003 and September 22, 2004, 1,175 coalition forces were killed, including 1,040 US military. Of the total, 925 were killed after President George W Bush declared the end of combat operations on May 1, 2003. Over 7,413 US troops have been wounded since the war began, 6,953 (94%) since May 1, 2003.

Contractor deaths: As of September 22, there has been an estimated 154 civilian contractors, missionaries and civilian worker deaths since May 1, 2004. Of these, 52 have been identified as Americans.

Journalist deaths: Forty-four international media workers have been killed in Iraq as of September 22, including 33 since Bush declared the end of combat operations. Eight of the dead worked for US companies.

B. Security costs

Terrorist recruitment and action: According to the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies, al-Qaeda's membership is now at 18,000, with 1,000 active in Iraq. The State Department's 2003 "Patterns of Global Terrorism" documented 625 deaths and 3,646 injuries due to terrorist attacks in 2003. The report acknowledged that "significant incidents" increased from 60% of total attacks in 2002 to 84% in 2003.

Low US credibility: Polls reveal that the war has damaged the US government's standing and credibility in the world. Surveys in eight European and Arab countries demonstrated broad public agreement that the war has hurt, rather than helped, the "war on terrorism". At home, 52% of Americans polled by the Annenberg Election Survey disapprove of Bush's handling of Iraq.

Military mistakes: A number of former military officials have criticized the war, including retired Marine General Anthony Zinni, who has charged that by manufacturing a false rationale for war, abandoning traditional allies, propping up and trusting Iraqi exiles, and failing to plan for post-war Iraq, the Bush administration made the US less secure.

Low troop morale and lack of equipment: A March 2004 army survey found 52% of soldiers reporting low morale, and three-fourths reporting they were poorly led by their officers. Lack of equipment has been an ongoing problem. The army did not fully equip soldiers with bullet-proof vests until June 2004, forcing many families to purchase them out of their own pockets.

Loss of first responders: National Guard troops make up almost one-third of the US Army troops now in Iraq. Their deployment puts a particularly heavy burden on their home communities because many are "first responders", including police, firefighters and emergency medical personnel. For example, 44% of the country's police forces have lost officers to Iraq. In some states, the absence of so many Guard troops has raised concerns about the ability to handle natural disasters.

Use of private contractors: An estimated 20,000 private contractors are carrying out work in Iraq traditionally done by the military, despite the fact that they often lack sufficient training and are not accountable to the same guidelines and reviews as military personnel.

C. Economic costs

The bill so far: Congress has approved $151.1 billion for Iraq. Congressional leaders anticipate an additional supplemental appropriation of $60 billion after the election in November.

Long-term impact on US economy: Economist Doug Henwood has estimated that the war bill will add up to an average of at least $3,415 for every US household. Another economist, James Galbraith of the University of Texas, predicts that while war spending may boost the economy initially, over the long term it is likely to bring a decade of economic troubles, including an expanded trade deficit and high inflation.

Oil prices: US crude oil prices spiked at $48 per barrel on August 19, the highest level since 1983, a development that most analysts attribute at least in part to the deteriorating situation in Iraq. According to a mid-May CBS survey, 85% of Americans said they had been affected measurably by higher gas prices. According to one estimate, if crude oil prices stay around $40 a barrel for a year, US gross domestic product will decline by more than $50 billion.

Economic impact on military families: Since the beginning of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, 364,000 reserve troops and National Guard soldiers have been called for military service, serving tours of duty that often last 20 months. Studies show that between 30% and 40% of reservists and National Guard members earn a lower salary when they leave civilian employment for military deployment. Army Emergency Relief has reported that requests from military families for food stamps and subsidized meals increased "several hundred percent" between 2002 and 2003.

D. Social costs

US budget and social programs: The Bush administration's combination of massive spending on the war and tax cuts for the wealthy means less money for social spending. The $151.1 billion expenditure for the war through this year could have paid for: close to 23 million housing vouchers; health care for over 27 million uninsured Americans; salaries for nearly 3 million elementary school teachers; 678,200 new fire engines; over 20 million Head Start slots for children; or health care coverage for 82 million children. A leaked memo from the White House to domestic agencies outlines major cuts following the election, including funding for education, Head Start, home ownership, job training, medical research and homeland security.

Social costs to the military: To meet troop requirements in Iraq, the army has extended the tours of duty for soldiers. These extensions have been particularly difficult for reservists, many of whom never expected to face such long separations from their jobs and families. According to military policy, reservists are not supposed to be on assignment for more than 12 months every five-six years. To date, the average tour of duty for all soldiers in Iraq has been 320 days. A recent army survey revealed that more than half of soldiers said they would not re-enlist.

Costs to veteran health care: About 64% of the more than 7,000 US soldiers injured in Iraq received wounds that prevented them from returning to duty. One trend has been an increase in amputees, the result of improved body armor that protects vital organs but not extremities. As in previous wars, many soldiers are likely to have received ailments that will not be detected for years to come. The Veterans Administration healthcare system is not prepared for the swelling number of claims. In May, the House of Representatives approved funding for FY 2005 that is $2.6 billion less than needed, according to veterans' groups.

Mental health costs: The New England Journal of Medicine reported in July that one in six soldiers returning from war in Iraq showed signs of post-traumatic stress disorder, major depression, or severe anxiety. Only 23% to 40% of respondents in the study who showed signs of a mental disorder had sought mental health care.

II. Costs to Iraq

A. Human costs

Iraqi deaths and injuries: As of September 22, between 12,800 and 14,843 Iraqi civilians had been killed as a result of the US invasion and ensuing occupation, while an estimated 40,000 Iraqis injured. During "major combat" operations, between 4,895 and 6,370 Iraqi soldiers and insurgents were killed.

Effects of depleted uranium (DU): The health impacts of the use of depleted uranium weaponry in Iraq are yet to be known. The Pentagon estimates that US and British forces used 1,100 to 2,200 tons of weaponry made from the toxic and radioactive metal during the March 2003 bombing campaign. Many scientists blame the far smaller amount of DU weapons used in the Persian Gulf War of 1991 for illnesses among US soldiers, as well as a sevenfold increase in child birth defects in Basra in southern Iraq.

B. Security costs

Rise in crime: Murder, rape and kidnapping have skyrocketed since March 2003, forcing Iraqi children to stay home from school and women to stay off the streets at night. Violent deaths rose from an average of 14 per month in 2002 to 357 per month in 2003.

Psychological impact: Living under occupation without the most basic security has devastated the Iraqi population. A poll conducted by the Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies in June found that 80% of Iraqis believe that coalition forces should leave either immediately or directly after the election.

C. Economic costs

Unemployment: Iraqi joblessness doubled from 30% before the war to 60% in the summer of 2003. While the Bush administration now claims that unemployment has dropped, the US is only employing 120,000 Iraqis, of a workforce of 7 million, in reconstruction projects.

Corporate war profiteering: Most of Iraq's reconstruction has been contracted out to US companies, rather than experienced Iraqi firms. Top contractor Halliburton is being investigated for charging $160 million for meals that were never served to troops and $61 million in cost overruns on fuel deliveries. Halliburton employees also took $6 million in kickbacks from sub-contractors, while other employees have reported extensive waste, including the abandonment of $85,000 worth of trucks because they had flat tires.

Iraq's oil economy: Anti-occupation violence has prevented Iraq from capitalizing on its oil assets. There have been an estimated 118 attacks on Iraq's oil infrastructure since June 2003. By September, oil production still had not reached pre-war levels and major attacks caused oil exports to plummet to a 10-month low in August.

D. Social costs

Health infrastructure: After more than a decade of crippling sanctions, Iraq's health facilities were further damaged during the war and post-invasion looting. Iraq's hospitals continue to suffer from lack of supplies and an overwhelming number of patients.

Education: The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) estimates that more than 200 schools were destroyed in the conflict and thousands more were looted in the chaos following the fall of Saddam Hussein. The State Department reported on September 15 that "significant obstacles remain in maintaining security for civilian/military reconstruction, logistical support and distribution for donations, equipment, textbooks and supplies".

Environment: The US-led attack damaged water and sewage systems and the country's fragile desert ecosystem. It also resulted in oil well fires that spewed smoke across the country and left unexploded ordnance that continues to endanger the Iraqi people and environment. Mines and unexploded ordnance cause an estimated 20 casualties per month.

E. Human-rights costs

Even with Saddam overthrown, Iraqis continue to face human-rights violations from occupying forces. In addition to the widely publicized humiliation and torture of prisoners, abuse has been widespread throughout the post-September 11 military operations, with over 300 allegations of abuse in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo. As of mid-August, only 155 investigations into the existing 300 allegations had been completed.

F. Sovereignty costs

Despite the proclaimed "transfer of sovereignty" to Iraq, the country continues to be occupied by US and coalition troops and has severely limited political and economic independence. The interim government does not have the authority to reverse the nearly 100 orders by former Coalition Provisional Authority head L Paul Bremer that, among other things, allow for the privatization of Iraq's state-owned enterprises and prohibit preferences for domestic firms in reconstruction.

III. Costs to the world

A. Human costs

While Americans make up the vast majority of military and contractor personnel in Iraq, other US-allied "coalition" troops have suffered 135 war casualties in Iraq. In addition, the focus on Iraq has diverted international resources and attention away from humanitarian crises such as in Sudan.

B. Disabling international law

The unilateral US decision to go to war in Iraq violated the United Nations charter, setting a dangerous precedent for other countries to seize any opportunity to respond militarily to claimed threats, whether real or contrived, that must be "preempted". The US military has also violated the Geneva Convention, making it more likely that in the future, other nations will ignore these protections in their treatment of civilian populations and detainees.

C. Undermining the United Nations

At every turn, the Bush administration has attacked the legitimacy and credibility of the UN, undermining the institution's capacity to act in the future as the centerpiece of global disarmament and conflict resolution. The efforts of the Bush administration to gain UN acceptance of an Iraqi government that was not elected but rather installed by occupying forces undermines the entire notion of national sovereignty as the basis for the UN charter. It was on this basis that secretary general Kofi Annan referred specifically to the vantage point of the UN charter in his September 2004 finding that the war was illegal.

D. Enforcing coalitions

Faced with opposition in the UN Security Council, the US government attempted to create the illusion of multilateral support for the war by pressuring other governments to join a so-called "coalition of the willing". This not only circumvented UN authority, but also undermined democracy in many coalition countries, where public opposition to the war was as high as 90%. As of the middle of September, only 29 members of the "coalition of the willing" had forces in Iraq, in addition to the US. These countries, combined with US, make up less than 14% of the world's population.

E. Costs to the global economy

The $151.1 billion spent by the US government on the war could have cut world hunger in half and covered HIV/AIDS medicine, childhood immunization and clean water and sanitation needs of the developing world for more than two years. As a factor in the oil price hike, the war has created concerns of a return to the "stagflation" of the 1970s. Already, the world's major airlines are expecting an increase in costs of $1 billion or more per month.

F. Undermining global security and disarmament

The US-led war and occupation have galvanized international terrorist organizations, placing people not only in Iraq but around the world at greater risk of attack. The State Department's annual report on international terrorism reported that in 2003 there was the highest level of terror-related incidents deemed "significant" than at any time since the US began issuing these figures.

G. Global environmental costs

US-fired depleted uranium weapons have contributed to pollution of Iraq's land and water, with inevitable spillover effects in other countries. The heavily polluted Tigris River, for example, flows through Iraq, Iran and Kuwait.

H. Human rights

The Justice Department memo assuring the White House that torture was legal stands in stark violation of the International Convention Against Torture (of which the US is a signatory). This, combined with the widely publicized mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners by US military and intelligence officials, gave new license for torture and mistreatment by governments around the world.

The costs of the failed Iraqi transition

And this had to be expected:

Oil-rich southern Iraqi provinces may seek autonomous region in the south

Quote[/b] ]BASRA, Iraq (AP) - Three southern Iraqi provinces, which lie atop more than 80 per cent of Iraq's huge oil reserves, are considering setting up an autonomous region, claiming the area is being marginalized by the central government, officials said Friday.

The issue was raised this week during a visit by Vice-President Rowsch Shaways, who invited members of city councils in the southern provinces of Basra, Missan and Dhiqar to visit three northern Kurdish provinces that secured autonomy after the 1991 Gulf War.

But no formal demand or blueprint has yet been put forth.

Walid Ghaitan, Basra's representative on the National Council, said the city and the southern region were not fairly represented in Baghdad. The National Council is serving as a watchdog for the interim central government until elections are held in January.

"Is it fair for a city like Basra with three million people to only have one representative on the National Council?" asked Ghaitan. "Isn't this enough to call for federalism?"

An autonomous south could harm Iraq's economy because most of Iraq's oil reserves are in the region. Oil is the main source of funds urgently needed for reconstruction of the country.

Iraq has the world's second-largest oil reserves - 112 billion barrels - second only to Saudi Arabia.

The quest for federalism, first reported by the British newspaper Financial Times, might also lead to a much-feared fragmentation of Iraq, with its multiple rivalries among ethnic, religious and tribal groups.

"We are for the idea that the states and cities of the south become a federal union because Basra and the south in general have been isolated from central decision-making," said Salem al-Taqi, a member of the Basra city council.

"This is what makes a large number of Iraqis call for federalism," al-Taqi said.

Army Brig.-Gen. Ali Thani, a politician without party affiliations, said he too supports federalism.

"Our ambition is that Basra and the southern cities of Nasiriyah and Amara become a federal unity with an administration, economic and independent authority."

"This is a legitimate demand for Iraqis who previously suffered from injustice," he said, referring to repression of Iraq's Shiite majority by the fallen regime of Saddam Hussein.

The Shiites, who make up about 60 per cent of the country's 25 million people, are concentrated in the south.

The invitation by Shaways to visit Kurdish areas was welcomed by members of the Basra city council.

Since Saddam was deposed by the U.S.-led invasion in April 2003, the three Kurdish provinces have been living in relative peace, a sharp contrast to the violence in much of Iraq. The northern region has been controlled by two major Kurdish political parties, each with its own militia, for the past 13 years.

Iraq's Kurdish minority has been promised a large measure of autonomy when a permanent Iraqi constitution is drawn up following January's elections.

Bagdad and the interim government can´t afford to let go all the major oil zones on their own. The way the planned government should look like will not be accepted by those wealthy parts of the country. It will be interesting what will happen.

[ran 0]

In Fallujah they used MLRS rocked barrages, which are completely unguided. The MLRS is an area destruction weapon. Each rocket carries some 600+ submunitions.

The radius of such a strike is about 150-200 m per rocket and the MLRS system carries 12 of them.

Not nice at all.

Oh the joys of the sub-munition weapons ...

[Tozmeister 0]

@Wilco, whats the source of your photo's?

They have a very sanitised/manufactured look of PR photos.

you said earlier that I "was sitting in England", yes i am. And do you know what i'm doing in england at the moment? i've been talking with my best mate (a 29 yo Captain in the BA) about his funeral arrangments,epitah and last will as he's off to Basra at christmass for 6 months. Not a great deal of fun.

PS, "Animals are ours for Entertainment" thats pretty sick to.

[quicksand 0]

[The other pictures are posibly to disturbing to be shown i.e bleeding children on hospital beds screaming in anguish]

Iraqis Condemn Prime Minister After Falluja Raid

Quote[/b] ]FALLUJA, Iraq (Reuters) - After the latest U.S. air strike on Falluja, enraged residents clasped wounded children and challenged Iraq's prime minister to visit the town to see how bombs were hitting civilians, not "terrorists."

"Is this a terrorist? Is this a terrorist? Iyad Allawi come and show us the terrorists," screamed a man as he fixed a bandage on the head of a small boy in his arms.

A U.S. warplane struck Falluja late Friday night, the latest in a weeks-long campaign of bombardments the U.S. military says are targeting hideouts used by followers of Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the most hunted man in Iraq.

Falluja, 50 km (30 miles) west of Baghdad, has been in rebel hands since U.S. forces withdrew following a failed offensive on the city in April.

Since the handover of power to an Iraqi government in June, U.S. forces are supposed to get a green light from the Iraqi government before conducting any air strikes. But many Iraqis believe Washington often acts of its own accord.

The U.S. military has repeatedly said that it conducts air strikes on Falluja only when it has specific intelligence and says that it only makes "precision strikes" on those targets.

After Friday's attack, hospital officials said at least seven civilians were killed and 13 wounded. Reuters television pictures showed Iraqis digging through mounds of rubble and twisted metal hoping to find survivors.

At one point, a child no older than 10 was pulled alive from under a pile of bricks and dust.

U.S. military officials have suggested that insurgents have pressured doctors into exaggerating casualty tolls and have cast doubt on television footage, indicating that scenes after air strikes may have been staged.

Reuters television footage of the destruction after Friday night's strike showed panicked men using their bare hands to dig out bodies. One man lay face down, covered by a heavy slab of cement over his waist and legs.

Such scenes are familiar to the people of Falluja, who say they have seen no evidence backing U.S. assertions that insurgents and foreign fighters were operating from houses that are flattened by U.S. warplanes.

Amid the screams and groans of children having their wounds stitched at a Falluja hospital Saturday, a young girl pulled dead from the rubble lay on thin mat on the floor.

Allawi's U.S.-backed government is scrambling to regain control of several rebel-held cities before elections are due in January, and put an end to suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Iraqi police and civilians.

As part of that campaign, U.S. and Iraqi forces launched an offensive against the rebel stronghold of Samarra early on Friday, killing more than 100 insurgents in fierce fighting.

The U.S. military has said the air raids on Falluja have killed scores of militants loyal to Zarqawi, who's group Washington says is allied to Osama bin Laden. It recently said as many as 100 of Zarqawi's followers had been killed in aerial bombardments and other strikes.

Outstanding journalism on the side of Reuters even though Al-Jazeera is reporting and showing the same footage concerning Fallujah,atleast Reuters has more credibility among US citizens and could open some eyes.

I have seen some of the Reuters videos and the cameramans are basicly free to film everything they want there are no armed man in the area directing them to specific scenes,they roam and film unrestricted among the wreckege of buildings caused by US air raids and there is no spreaded ammunition,no masked men in the ruble just desperate Iraqis digging madly to save those trapped within culminating with moments when Iraqis are ''lucky'' and manage to dig out a baby soaked in blood and dust,I would be the last to know if he made it alive.

[Wilco 944]

@Wilco, whats the source of your photo's?

They have a very sanitised/manufactured look of PR photos.

you said earlier that I "was sitting in England", yes i am. And do you know what i'm doing in england at the moment? i've been talking with my best mate (a 29 yo Captain in the BA) about his funeral arrangments,epitah and last will as he's off to Basra at christmass for 6 months. Not a great deal of fun.

PS, "Animals are ours for Entertainment" thats pretty sick to.

Terribly sorry to hear that mate, and I was quite aggrivated by what you were saying before without actually being in the U.S., my father is supposed to be deployed to Iraq next year, so I know how it is.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]I have seen some of the Reuters videos and the cameramans are basicly free to film everything they want there are no armed man in the area directing them to specific scenes,they roam and film unrestricted among the wreckege of buildings caused by US air raids and there is no spreaded ammunition,no masked men in the ruble just desperate Iraqis digging madly to save those trapped within culminating with moments when Iraqis are ''lucky'' and manage to dig out a baby soaked in blood and dust,I would be the last to know if he made it alive.

Let's not forget wreckage caused by Iraqi militia who detonated a bomb on a busy street to get lucky and kill 2 American soldiers, but in turn killed 35 children along with it.

And I have photos that show how fucked up war is, believe me.

And these aren't even close.

Quote[/b] ]Iraqi firefighters attempt to put out a blazing car after three explosions Thursday in Baghdad.

Quote[/b] ]Soldiers secure the area after three explosions Thursday in Baghdad.

Quote[/b] ]Soldiers inspect the site of three bomb explosions near a U.S. convoy in western Baghdad on Thursday.

Quote[/b] ]The father and uncle of an eight-year-old boy cradle his body after a series of bombs kills more than 30 children in Baghdad.

Quote[/b] ]BAGHDAD, IRAQ: A US soldier secures the site of a mortar attack 26 September 2004 in Baghdad's Karada neighborhood. One person was killed and four others, including a woman, wounded in the attack in a busy shop area of Baghdad

[Wilco 944]

Anyone see a difference?

It isn't the kids fault, it's the situation they grow up into and it's what their role models are doing, so why not? I'll grab a flag, and you grab a mock RPG.

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40128000/jpg/_40128842_alyarmouk_afp300.jpg

Say bye bye to the forums. I told you to read the forums rules...

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage, and other disgusting/explicit images. This also includes links to pages that contain such images. There have been a number of incidents where people have linked to news sites which unbeknownst to them contains obscene images a few mouse clicks away, while we can't expect people to check every link on a site it is strongly suggested that whenever making a post about a news item the post is structured in a way that provides the information without risk of breaching the rules. A good example of how to do this can be seen below. If you're ever unsure as to whether or not a link should be posted on the forum feel free to PM a moderator for guidance.

[Wilco 944]

Quote[/b] ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40128000/jpg/_40128842_alyarmouk_afp300.jpg

Say bye bye to the forums. I told you to read the forums rules...

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage,  and other disgusting/explicit images. This also includes links to pages that contain such images. There have been a number of incidents where people have linked to news sites which unbeknownst to them contains obscene images a few mouse clicks away, while we can't expect people to check every link on a site it is strongly suggested that whenever making a post about a news item the post is structured in a way that provides the information without risk of breaching the rules. A good example of how to do this can be seen below. If you're ever unsure as to whether or not a link should be posted on the forum feel free to PM a moderator for guidance.

The picture shows a man cradling his son after an Iraqi militia man thought it would be great to blow up a bomb in a crowded area.

It's life, it's war, it's suffering, I've seen worst photos on a public news channel.

[quicksand 0]

Quote[/b] ]Let''s not forget wreckage caused by Iraqi militia who detonated a bomb on a busy street to get lucky and kill 2 American soldiers, but in turn killed 35 children along with it.

Not a terrific point I must say,puting in the same category blood thirsty anti-Iraqi Zarqawi associates wíth US forces the self proclaimed protectors of the Iraqi citizens.

While we are on that isn't the common Iraqi reciving mixed messages when figures complied by the Iraqi government show that even after May 1 their protectors are responsable for two times as many the amount of civillians the anti-Iraqi forces killed?

I also fail to see how does the fact that a desperate man who rigged his car with hundreads of kilos of explosives and detonated himself in a bid to spread terror justifies the carnage US forces are causing in Fallujah.

Quote[/b] ]And I have photos that show how fucked up war is, believe me.

Yet you make no atempt to condemn the man who is responsable for this war,the deaths of more then 40,000 Iraqi civillians and the mess Iraq curently is in more over you blindly suport him and as I have seen in your posts pray every day that Iraqis who raise up against the occupation burn in everlasting hell.

Quote[/b] ]It isn't the kids fault, it's the situation they grow up into and it's what their role models are doing, so why not

Is that so?The Iraqi child grew up with an RPG attached to his hand or did the war,the carnage a child should never had witness, maybe his entire familly shred to pieces by a special delivery by an all mighty air force brought him to such a horrendeus state.

Quote[/b] ]The picture shows a man cradling his son after an Iraqi militia man thought it would be great to blow up a bomb in a crowded area.

If you would read my post you would see that I myself refrained from posting some explicit pohotographs of Iraqi children screaming in pain after some military folks thought it would be a great idea to shred their house to rubble.

Nontheless,I consider you should not be banned but this is my personal opinion and the mods might disagree for the sake of objectivity towards those who recived that treatment for the same mistake.

[ralphwiggum 6]

Quote[/b] ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40128000/jpg/_40128842_alyarmouk_afp300.jpg

Say bye bye to the forums. I told you to read the forums rules...

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage,  and other disgusting/explicit images. This also includes links to pages that contain such images. There have been a number of incidents where people have linked to news sites which unbeknownst to them contains obscene images a few mouse clicks away, while we can't expect people to check every link on a site it is strongly suggested that whenever making a post about a news item the post is structured in a way that provides the information without risk of breaching the rules. A good example of how to do this can be seen below. If you're ever unsure as to whether or not a link should be posted on the forum feel free to PM a moderator for guidance.

The picture shows a man cradling his son after an Iraqi militia man thought it would be great to blow up a bomb in a crowded area.

It's life, it's war, it's suffering, I've seen worst photos on a public news channel.

maybe we should post some pictures of Abu Graib?

you broke forum rules. await final decision.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

I really do not care if other countries like the war or not

So why should have Iraq cared in 1991 about your opinion when they attacked kuwait?

Or why should China care about your opinion on Taiwan?

Or why should have USSR cared about your opinion on cuba missiles?

etc.

Quote[/b] ]

I do fully support our troops in Iraq, and as my B-day nears this October, I plan on joing the Air Force, to do my part, for my country.

Flying well above dropping laser guided munitions in the middle of towns on rpg and ak waving insurgents.. brave you.

Those guys that do that are brave, much more brave than you or I.

As for your first questions, well they should care if they know whats good for em.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Quote[/b] ]http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40128000/jpg/_40128842_alyarmouk_afp300.jpg

Say bye bye to the forums. I told you to read the forums rules...

Quote[/b] ]§5)No posting of explicit images

No posting of pictures containing porn, real killing, mutilations, wounds, carnage,  and other disgusting/explicit images. This also includes links to pages that contain such images. There have been a number of incidents where people have linked to news sites which unbeknownst to them contains obscene images a few mouse clicks away, while we can't expect people to check every link on a site it is strongly suggested that whenever making a post about a news item the post is structured in a way that provides the information without risk of breaching the rules. A good example of how to do this can be seen below. If you're ever unsure as to whether or not a link should be posted on the forum feel free to PM a moderator for guidance.

The picture shows a man cradling his son after an Iraqi militia man thought it would be great to blow up a bomb in a crowded area.

It's life, it's war, it's suffering, I've seen worst photos on a public news channel.

I am behind you 100% man, these thing need to be posted. Let people know what terrorism is about, becuase sadly either nobody here knows, or they are afraid to face the facts.

[turms 0]

Should I start posting pictures of children dead from US bombings? Afterall You should know what is happening there. And what is happening is that US bombs kill more civilians than the resistance.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Should  I start posting pictures of children dead from US bombings? Afterall You should know what is happening there. And what is happening is that US bombs kill more civilians than the resistance.

The "resistance"?

[denoir 0]

Should  I start posting pictures of children dead from US bombings? Afterall You should know what is happening there. And what is happening is that US bombs kill more civilians than the resistance.

The "resistance"?

Yes, the "other side". Those fighting your occupation of their land. The guys that carry guns and that are not you.

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Should  I start posting pictures of children dead from US bombings? Afterall You should know what is happening there. And what is happening is that US bombs kill more civilians than the resistance.

The "resistance"?

Yes, the "other side". Those fighting you. The guys that carry guns and that are not you.

Uh yea. To me he was making them sound like freedoom fighters. Thanks though for the help!

[denoir 0]

Resistance, freedom fighters, insurgents .. or if you wish in Dubya-speak: evil doers, terrorists, anti-iraqi forces... and so on

Now, before picking labels, read this article that Akira posted yesterday:

Quote[/b] ]

Statistics: More Iraqi civilians killed by U.S. than by insurgents

U.S.-led forces are killing twice as many Iraqis -- most of them civilians -- as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics from Iraq's Health Ministry

By Nancy A. Youssef

KNIGHT RIDDER NEWS SERVICE

Saturday, September 25, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis -- most of them civilians -- than are insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry.

According to the ministry, the interim Iraqi government recorded 3,487 Iraqi deaths in 15 of the country's 18 provinces from April 5 -- when the ministry began compiling the data -- until Sept. 19. Of those, 328 were women and children. Another 13,726 Iraqis were injured, the ministry said.

The ministry said it lacked statistics for three mostly Kurdish northern provinces.

Iraqi officials said about two-thirds of the Iraqi deaths were caused by multinational forces and police; the remaining third died from insurgent attacks. The ministry began separating attacks by multinational and police forces and insurgents June 10.

From that date until Sept. 10, 1,295 Iraqis were killed in clashes with multinational forces and police versus 516 killed in terrorist operations, the ministry said. The ministry defined terrorist operations as explosive devices in residential areas, car bombs or assassinations.

While most of the dead are thought to be civilians, the data include an unknown number of police and Iraqi national guard troops. Many Iraqi deaths, especially of insurgents, are never reported, so the actual number of Iraqis killed in fighting could be significantly higher.

During the same period, 432 U.S. soldiers were killed.

Some say these Iraqi casualties are undermining popular acceptance of the U.S.-backed interim government.

"The Americans do not care about the Iraqis. They don't care if they get killed, because they don't care about the citizens," said Abu Mohammed, 50, who was a major general in Saddam Hussein's army in Baghdad. "The Americans keep criticizing Saddam for the mass graves. How many graves are the Americans making in Iraq?"

Iraqi officials said the statistics show that U.S. airstrikes intended for insurgents also were killing large numbers of innocent civilians.

The Health Ministry is convinced that nearly all of those reported dead are civilians, not insurgents. Most often, a family member wouldn't report it if his or her relative died fighting for rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia or another insurgent force, and the relative would be buried immediately, said Dr. Shihab Ahmed Jassim, a member of the ministry's operations section.

"People who participate in the conflict don't come to the hospital. Their families are afraid they will be punished," said Dr. Yasin Mustaf, assistant manager of al Kimdi Hospital near Baghdad's poor Sadr City neighborhood. "Usually, the innocent people come to the hospital. That is what the numbers show."

U.S. military officials blamed insurgents for endangering innocent people by embedding themselves in communities.

Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, a military spokesman, said insurgents were living in residential areas, sometimes in homes filled with munitions.

"As long as they continue to do that, they are putting the residents at risk," Boylan said. "We will go after them."

[Duke_of_Ray 0]

Resistance, freedom fighters, insurgents .. or if you wish in Dubya-speak: evil doers, terrorists, anti-iraqi forces... and so on

Now, before picking labels, read this article that Akira posted yesterday:

Quote[/b] ]

Statistics: More Iraqi civilians killed by U.S. than by insurgents

U.S.-led forces are killing twice as many Iraqis -- most of them civilians -- as attacks by insurgents, according to statistics from Iraq's Health Ministry

By Nancy A. Youssef

KNIGHT RIDDER NEWS SERVICE

Saturday, September 25, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq -- Operations by U.S. and multinational forces and Iraqi police are killing twice as many Iraqis -- most of them civilians -- than are insurgents, according to statistics compiled by the Iraqi Health Ministry.

According to the ministry, the interim Iraqi government recorded 3,487 Iraqi deaths in 15 of the country's 18 provinces from April 5 -- when the ministry began compiling the data -- until Sept. 19. Of those, 328 were women and children. Another 13,726 Iraqis were injured, the ministry said.

The ministry said it lacked statistics for three mostly Kurdish northern provinces.

Iraqi officials said about two-thirds of the Iraqi deaths were caused by multinational forces and police; the remaining third died from insurgent attacks. The ministry began separating attacks by multinational and police forces and insurgents June 10.

From that date until Sept. 10, 1,295 Iraqis were killed in clashes with multinational forces and police versus 516 killed in terrorist operations, the ministry said. The ministry defined terrorist operations as explosive devices in residential areas, car bombs or assassinations.

While most of the dead are thought to be civilians, the data include an unknown number of police and Iraqi national guard troops. Many Iraqi deaths, especially of insurgents, are never reported, so the actual number of Iraqis killed in fighting could be significantly higher.

During the same period, 432 U.S. soldiers were killed.

Some say these Iraqi casualties are undermining popular acceptance of the U.S.-backed interim government.

"The Americans do not care about the Iraqis. They don't care if they get killed, because they don't care about the citizens," said Abu Mohammed, 50, who was a major general in Saddam Hussein's army in Baghdad. "The Americans keep criticizing Saddam for the mass graves. How many graves are the Americans making in Iraq?"

Iraqi officials said the statistics show that U.S. airstrikes intended for insurgents also were killing large numbers of innocent civilians.

The Health Ministry is convinced that nearly all of those reported dead are civilians, not insurgents. Most often, a family member wouldn't report it if his or her relative died fighting for rebel cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's Mahdi Army militia or another insurgent force, and the relative would be buried immediately, said Dr. Shihab Ahmed Jassim, a member of the ministry's operations section.

"People who participate in the conflict don't come to the hospital. Their families are afraid they will be punished," said Dr. Yasin Mustaf, assistant manager of al Kimdi Hospital near Baghdad's poor Sadr City neighborhood. "Usually, the innocent people come to the hospital. That is what the numbers show."

U.S. military officials blamed insurgents for endangering innocent people by embedding themselves in communities.

Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, a military spokesman, said insurgents were living in residential areas, sometimes in homes filled with munitions.

"As long as they continue to do that, they are putting the residents at risk," Boylan said. "We will go after them."

You know I probably could find a news article that said the terrorist have killed more Iraqis, maybe not, but I think I could.

Also if you think those guys over there fighting our troops are people figthing for their freedom, then you should really do some thinking about your current mental state.

[kerosene 0]

Anyone see a difference?

It isn't the kids fault, it's the situation they grow up into and it's what their role models are doing, so why not?  I'll grab a flag, and you grab a mock RPG.

Hey Wilco, you never had a toy gun when you were a kid?

I could probably find pictures of little kids at Klan rallies and post them, Its not indicative of a nation.