Manhunt game withdrawn from UK Store

[John C Flett 0]

Quote[/b] ]Back when i was a lad (those were the days) you couldnt buy a mag with an 18 rated demo on the front if you werent 18.....i think here its the magazine retailer who doesnt check whos at fault....

I'm talking about PC gamer and PC zone, both targeted at older gamers

Still the case but X Box and PS2 magazines tend to be aimed at a younger audience. But most demos were not rated, in part because of that. I certainly played demos of games like 'GTA' and 'Soldier of Fortune' which had elements removed so that they could slip by the 18 rating.

I may be mistaken but I seem to remember back with 'Metal Gear Solid 2' some anger between Konami and Sony because the official magazine refused to cover mount a demo with an age restriction, to my knowledge the only time this has ever happened.

[Pathy 0]

British TV isnt filled with BS violence Bn880.....

[Colossus 2]

Thats why we have a ratings system.

Ratings system have not much effect this days, parents buy the games and teenagers already know where to download illegal copies of movies and games.

EDIT: There is many PC mags. where it is 18 rated demos on,

where is the rateing on that?

EDIT2: Ever watched ¨Happy Three Friends¨ (cuddly animals ) on MTV?

No rateing there, but I don't blame them for this either.

I'm just saying, rateing games and movies have not much effect.

[Pathy 0]

Yes Colossus and thus we come full circle to where we were 2 pages ago, it is ultimately the parents fault for allowing thier children access to this material.

Edit: Oh and PC mags usually have some small print somewhere saying "not to be sold to persons under the age of......."

If the retailer is doing thier job correctly then they should know where to look for this and make sure its being sold only to old enough people

[Colossus 2]

Then we agree then  

EDIT:

Edit: Oh and PC mags usually have some small print somewhere saying "not to be sold to persons under the age of......."

If the retailer is doing thier job correctly then they should know where to look for this and make sure its being sold only to old enough people

Why haven't I seen the rate print?  

It should be pretty easy to spot it  

I got to check this next time I'm in a store.

[bn880 5]

Well, I am talking about America at least, we knowit's the parents' fault, what can you do, fire all mom's to stay home with their kids and restore proper parenting practices? You aren't, so okay ratings, but ratings do not stop kids from looking at this stuff or playing it apparently.

[Pathy 0]

I'm insulted Bn880, you thought i was from the US      

No, only parents can make sure the ratings stop children getting such material. And lets face it, as we've discussed before, it doesnt take much for parents to know whats going on....its more likely they just cant be bothered to do anything, trading off their 10 yr old kid playing a game designed for 18 year olds in order to get abit of peace and quiet....especially when these parents actually BUY their kid a game or DVD with a rating that is too high.    (see page 3 post 1 by Buggs, who works in a store selling these)

Collosus, AFAIK ratings print is usually very small. I struggle to find the magazines date on the cover, let alone the rating, it may be inside the cover, i do not know, but next time you see a PC mag with an 18 rated game demo on the front, give it a little search. I know i've been stopped along time ago and asked how old i was when buying a PC mag, and i dont imagine they would bin such a ratings system......(i'm 18 and dont buy PC mags that often, so it doesnt ever happen anymore)

....however, i do suspect that most retailers either dont bother, or just dont train their checkout staff to look for any such small print.

[stevevcb 3]

Strange but true:

1). My dad went into a shop and bought GTA2 for me a few years back. He said "What's it about?" in the car on the way home and I said "You're a criminal, you get to run around and generally be an arsehole; nicking cars, shooting people and stuff." He shrugged and said "Cool. As long as you're not doing it for real, what's the problem?"

2). I listen to heavy metal occasionally. Right now I've got "F**king Hostile" by Pantera on. Eminem was on the radio this morning too.

3). I own a couple of airsoft replica pistols. I have also fired a crossbow and handled a (deactivated) Lee Enfield rifle with a spike bayonet on it.

4). I belong to an Aikido club, and the week before last, we were shown several attacks using a samurai sword until we could do them to a reasonable level of proficiency. Last week we learned how to disarm someone with a bladed weapon by breaking his wrist and then cutting his throat with his own sword. On top of this we know how to put strangleholds on people, how to break arms and necks, and how to inflict a lot of pain on an assailant with a handful of simple wrist applications.

5). I play a lot of shoot-em-ups, most of them military-themed. On my desk right now are Call of Duty, Max Payne 2, OFP (naturally) and Raven Shield.

If these people are right, I should be a car-stealing, granny-mugging, drug-taking master criminal who regularly kills people with his bare hands and/or a bladed weapon. I should also have a major grudge against Germans in 1940s military uniform and Russians in 1980s military uniform. Of course, this is all because I listen to "evil" music and play videogames.

Now, let me put this in perspective.

1). My father bought GTA2 for me because he sees the difference between what I do in real life and what I pretend to do on the computer.

2). I also listen to classical music and blues. I have a major dislike for most contemporary metal bands (I use "bands" in its loosest possible sense).

3). I've not handled either of my airsoft guns for about a month, and I handled both the crossbow and Lee Enfield under the supervision of the owners. The former I used at a registered shooting club.

4). I also learned how to disarm people without causing them any pain or lasting damage. It is also drilled into us that you should only ever use Aikido to defend yourself or another, and that you only ever use it when there's no alternative.

5). I also play flight simulators, empire-building games and the odd strategy game, as well as fighting games on my Dreamcast. If playing shooters makes me proficient at killing people, then I should also be capable of flying a variety of aircraft, from a Schweizer glider to an Avro Vulcan. I should also be capable of running a country, managing its infrastructure (with the current British government, I could probably do a better job ). I should be able to command armies effectively, and playing Soul Calibure should make me an expert in Chinese and Korean sword and staff fighting, two forms of Kendo, using nunchaku, chain weapons, axes and broadswords.

Fair enough, some people may be influenced by playing videogames or watching violent films, but if you can't differentiate between reality and make-believe, you shouldn't be allowed to watch or play things that may influence you do bad things. It's all to do with the parents. My parents never really stopped me from seeing anything unless unless it would upset me (seeing The Fly when you're about six, for example, would do that well). They've brought me up so that I know that doing bad things brings about bad consequences. I mean, I've on occassion sickened myself playing certain games when I've realised that everything and everybody are totally irrelevant and that you can do whatever the hell you want, especially when what you end up doing is inevitably "wrong."

Besides, if games and films and music really do turn you into raging psychopaths, why the hell aren't the censors all murdering each other, as they've seen films and bits of films that we never will because they were really violent or explicit etc.

[Placebo 28]

Excellent post Kooky

I'll share my own little anecdote.....

As far back as I can remember I've always been fascinated by Westerns, probably one of my favourite genres, used to watch them all the time when I was little, one time when I was maybe 10 or so I was sleeping over at my cousins house, he's about 4 or 5 years older than me, we were playing a cowboys version of hide and seek, I had a child size replica Springfield rifle, metal frame, I found my cousin, I didn't want to shoot him, so instead I did what I'd seen them do on westerns when they wanted to take someone alive, I reversed the rifle and hit him as hard as I could in the head with the metal stock of the gun, this was right in front of my Aunt and Uncle. My Aunt phoned my Mum, my Uncle found his slipper and gave me about 5 hard whacks on the bottom and sent me to bed, guess how many times for the rest of my childhood I re-enacted something violent I'd seen on TV? That's right, none.

[John C Flett 0]

Quote[/b] ]my Uncle found his slipper

Fact 1) Placebo was spanked with a slipper and didn't become a violent criminal. A forum moderator yes. But not a violent one.

Fact 2) Slipper sales have been declining according to a brief glance at the Government Product and sales : Footwear figures.

Fact 3) In this same period violent crime is increasing according to ( often disputed ) UK police figures.

Gentlemen, I believe we have enough evidence to start a news cycle blaming lack of slippers for societies problems.

[Skul 0]

placebo was 10 once?

I bet your cousin wasn't too happy about your butt-whippings.... oops, that came out wrong!

Ya better make sure nobody in the media finds out about this...er...'incident', placey, or you'll get banned!

...Saaaaay......

Well, I'm off to play Halo... sure hope it won't turn me into a huge guy wearing green armour who runs around blasting aliens on a giant ancient ring-world....

[Gareth Gates must die]

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]Game developers, TV, etc are NOT responsible for raising the children of fuckwit lazy parents.

But they are responsible for content control. That´s it.

BIS is best example. Or don´t you think that a lot of people would like to have bodies that splatter and limbs flying through the air. Does BIS do it this way? No they say they have a responsibility to follow and that´s what I mean.

...No, they don't / didnt have the engine that could do it or the resources to spare, so it was never a consideration. Would you have still liked OFP if all the weapons looked like magic wands and shot streams of feathers?

They didn't do it this way because of responsibility, they did it because it was the best choice for them in terms of aesthetic and engine load. And even if it had been implemented, it wouldn't change a thing about the game; just eye candy. You're talking nonsense.

OFP's level of violence would be seen as completely irresponsible by the people complaining about violent games. You might not think so; but some would. Where is the line? Eh? You draw it at manhunt; they draw it at barbies fashion designer. Who is right?

Quote[/b] ]That's not answering the censorship questions.

Would you pls hold your breath ? I did not say that I want total censorship. I neither used the word itself. So pls hold it.

How many times must I show you using the word forbidden until you admit it? How can you sit there and claim you didn't?

You did.

Forbidden = banned.

There is no such thing as only banning 'some' violent games. That is the point. You cannot do it. Can you accept and admit this. (Saying 'I was wrong, I don't want any games forbidden' would do)

Quote[/b] ]

And you have always done what your parents wanted you to do, right ?

That has absolutely nothing to do with it. Parents are responsible for their children until they reach legal age. End of line.

Thats why we have a ratings system.

Ratings system have not much effect this days, parents buy the games and teenagers already know where to download illegal copies of movies and games.

EDIT: There is many PC mags. where it is 18 rated demos on,

where is the rateing on that?

As has been said many, many times in this thread, the rating system is not a law; it is to help parents mainly in knowing which games are suitable for their children and which are not.

How do you know the demos are 18 rated if they don't have ratings on?? That makes no sense. Heres a hint: Look on the cover of the mag or the box, there WILL be a rating on it.

Well, I am talking about America at least, we knowit's the parents' fault, what can you do, fire all mom's to stay home with their kids and restore proper parenting practices? You aren't, so okay ratings, but ratings do not stop kids from looking at this stuff or playing it apparently.

You can stop listening to their whining and their bullshit law suits; you can pass laws making responsibilty matter; it is NOT the companies fault that their stupid selves hurt themselves by using the product wrongly. (eg McDonalds Coffe bullshit)

[bn880 5]

You people can not get over one important principle, blame is one thing, a solution is sometimes found not with the persons being blamed, but with persons who can do something about it. Think about it, so what if we know it IS the parents' fault? (and it is) It is an endless cycle.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

A solution is never found by blaming someone for someone elses stupidity.

[maddogx 13]

In my opion, violence is the fault of the parents but inspired by video games. Let me explain:

Obviously, like many of you have said, we're not all raving maniacs that go out on occasional killing sprees. Even though we all admittedly play Operation Flashpoint and other 'violent' games such as Ravenshield, Max Payne 2, HALO etc. This is (in my opinion) due to the fact that we all have a more or less normal upbringing and have been taught to grasp the concept of right and wrong. We KNOW we shouldn't really go out and shoot people because our parents taught us it is wrong. I believe people like the guy on recent British TV have a pretty fucked up perception of the world. Not because they've been playing violent video games but because of their upbringing. Perhaps they were treated badly by their parents of perhaps they've experienced some other traumatic events. Or perhaps they just never got taught that it's bad to harm people. Whatever the case these people are fucked from the start. The violent potential is already there. Violent video games just give them an idea of what they could do. The gore level of games is in my mind irrelevant - it doesn't matter if, when I shoot someone in the head in OFP, he just drops down dead, or blood squirts, or his head explodes. The fact is I shot him in the head.

In a perfect world this would be a completely harmless way of releasing my latent aggressions because I know I shouldn't really be doing that.

That is why I think it is entirely the parents fault. Obviously like I said the inspiration nowadays comes from the violent games but that's not the fault of the game makers.It's the fault of the parents for 1. Raising their child wrong, 2. Allowing their fucked up child to see/play things he may be inclined to copy and 3. For not noticing he fucked up he was in the first place.

^^ my two cents ^^

[red oct 2]

Excellent post Kooky

I'll share my own little anecdote.....

As far back as I can remember I've always been fascinated by Westerns, probably one of my favourite genres, used to watch them all the time when I was little, one time when I was maybe 10 or so I was sleeping over at my cousins house, he's about 4 or 5 years older than me, we were playing a cowboys version of hide and seek, I had a child size replica Springfield rifle, metal frame, I found my cousin, I didn't want to shoot him, so instead I did what I'd seen them do on westerns when they wanted to take someone alive, I reversed the rifle and hit him as hard as I could in the head with the metal stock of the gun, this was right in front of my Aunt and Uncle. My Aunt phoned my Mum, my Uncle found his slipper and gave me about 5 hard whacks on the bottom and sent me to bed, guess how many times for the rest of my childhood I re-enacted something violent I'd seen on TV? That's right, none.

hey placebo, don't mean to go off topic, but since you say you love westerns, you might be interested in one western that has came out recently on the PS2 and Xbox called "Red Dead Revolver". its made by Rockstar, but its violent content isn't to over the top as in Manhunt or the GTA series theres some blood but thats it. its not a very long game, in fact you could be done w/ it in one day, but its still fun. its just like the old Clint Eastwood movies, there are duels, one level your in a saloon fight w/ only your fists and bottles of whisky to throw at the bad guys and another level where you have to chase a train on horse back. it even has the song from the movie The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

heres the web site and pics:

http://www.rockstargames.com/reddeadrevolver/index2.htm

http://www.rockstargames.com/reddeadrevolver/xbox/xbox_new2.jpg

http://www.rockstargames.com/reddeadrevolver/PS2/PS2-new2.jpg

http://www.rockstargames.com/reddeadrevolver/xbox/xbox03.jpg

[bn880 5]

A solution is never found by blaming someone for someone elses stupidity.

Christ... I already said you have to look past blame.

okay I will give up now

[Placebo 28]

@Baron when you reply to 3 posts make them all in one reply please, not one after another.

@Red Oct yeah I followed that game, it's one that offered much but failed to deliver (according to reviews & feedback from those who tried it). I'm still waiting for the ultimate Western game, Opf's open landscapes, RPG elements, 1 on 1 shootouts, story and plot, with Western games they only seem to think about the action, the genre is so much more than that

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]They didn't do it this way because of responsibility, they did it because it was the best choice for them in terms of aesthetic and engine load. And even if it had been implemented, it wouldn't change a thing about the game; just eye candy. You're talking nonsense.

Ah here comes Mr superchecker. The only problem is that I directly asked Marek eye to eye when I was there. He didn´t say engine limitations are the reason. He said BIS has a responsibilty. And they take it very serious. Go home, eat your pants !

All that for nothing . Haha , I love it sometimes

Quote[/b] ]Where is the line? Eh? You draw it at manhunt; they draw it at barbies fashion designer. Who is right?

Respect for human life is the limit. Same goes for surgical operations on MTV or other bullshit. Don´t you see the results of all this crap every day ? Well maybe you ask my girlfriend who works in a Kindergarden or my neighbour who works at a primary school. Ask them what they think about your ,all is up to the parents stuff. They will tell you that children are more left alone these days. Why ? Because their parents have to work, father fulltime, mother parttime to keep their income up so they can afford living. What do you tell them ? Yeah, check the computers...Hey man , what are you trying to sell us here ? Even I was smart enough to hide my Karateka tape and my Doublke dragon floppy fro my parents. Do you think parents get an computer course automatically with a child ? I know a hell lot of mothers who have no idea of how a comp works other than operating word or doing their online banking. Children are often way more educated with the comp than their parents. That´s nothing new. Now take this in combination with worldwide available file-sharing and peer to peer networks , and tell me that parents do have a chance to control what their kids are playing. You know what ? Alt - Tab is the way.

Don´t tell me that parents have the only obligation. That´s just nonsense as everyboidy knows here it can´t be controlled if the kid doesn´t want it to be controlled.

And that´s part of my opinion I still stand firm with. YOu certainly won´t change that Baron. How hard you try, I don´t mind.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Respect for human life is the limit.

Answer the question, please. If you can.

Who decides where the line is? How do you determine what deserves to be banned and what doesn't. What makes your opinion and mine that OFP shouldn't be banned (or shouldn't take tighter responsibilities) more right than the lobbyists who insist ANY game featuring violence of ANY sort should be banned?

Thats the problem; please try to answer it, not make flip remarks.

Quote[/b] ]

Same goes for surgical operations on MTV or other bullshit. Don´t you see the results of all this crap every day ?

I don't watch any shite like that. That is how we deal with things we don't like in a consumer driven commerce: we don't buy it if we don't want it.

Quote[/b] ]

Well maybe you ask my girlfriend who works in a Kindergarden or my neighbour who works at a primary school. Ask them what they think about your ,all is up to the parents stuff. They will tell you that children are more left alone these days. Why ? Because their parents have to work, father fulltime, mother parttime to keep their income up so they can afford living. What do you tell them ?

I tell them that they are STILL responsible for their children, whether they like it or not. I already told you they don't have to physically be there all the time; they just have to show some slight remote interest in their own children: trust their babysitters, guardians etc. Not leave them in front of a TV or a computer all day: that is simply bad parenting, pure and simple.

Allow them to use the TV or the computer if they want; but not simply dump them in front of it and leave them with no further thought.

'WAAAAAAH ITS NOT OUR FAULT WE ARE BAD PARENTS'

Yes, it is. It is your own fucking fault, not the TVs, not the games.

Its really simple: show an interest in the kids. They do not have to be there all the time (this will be the third or fourth time I say this, just in case you put words in my mouth again.)

Quote[/b] ]

Yeah, check the computers...Hey man , what are you trying to sell us here ? Even I was smart enough to hide my Karateka tape and my Doublke dragon floppy fro my parents. Do you think parents get an computer course automatically with a child ? I know a hell lot of mothers who have no idea of how a comp works other than operating word or doing their online banking.

Let me draw your attention to one simple fact:

THESE PEOPLE BOUGHT THE GAMES FOR THEIR KIDS

Read the article.

The woman KNEW her son and his 'friend' were playing the game; she knew the content of the game; she simply did not give a shit.

Quote[/b] ]

Don´t tell me that parents have the only obligation.

Parents have the only responsibility for their children. GET USED TO IT.

Quote[/b] ]

That´s just nonsense as everyboidy knows here it can´t be controlled if the kid doesn´t want it to be controlled.

Crap. Lazy parents. Can't be bothered. Bad parenting.

Show me a child that makes enough money to own their own computer and internet connection. The parents can stop them playing such games if they want to. They could also talk to their children once in a while, you know, have a discussion with them, find out whats bothering them.

Quote[/b] ]

And that´s part of my opinion I still stand firm with. YOu certainly won´t change that Baron. How hard you try, I don´t mind.

Still waiting for the answers you know you cannot give on forbidden games.

[bn880 5]

Bah, I side with Bals on this one, totally. It is a problem of society, and if anything will fix it, it will have to be solved collectively by the society.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Bah, I side with Bals on this one, totally. It is a problem of society, and if anything will fix it, it will have to be solved collectively by the society.

What is the problem, as you see it, and how will banning good games solve it?

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Its really simple: show an interest in the kids. They do not have to be there all the time (this will be the third or fourth time I say this, just in case you put words in my mouth again.)

I get the impression that you are living in

Wha Wha HU KLU WONDERLAND sometimes. Really.

Maybe you ask some parents what influence they have nowadays on their kids. Go, ask them what they do after school or during school. You can´t control shit when your kid goes to school and spends more time with the kids on the street than with the dad who has to sleep at day because he is on nightshift. You control shit. That´s the bloody truth. Sure the weekends and maybe holiday, hurrah ! But the rest of the time he´s only told to be silent because daddy is sleeping. You know what I mean ?

Anyway I will bail out of this Baron nonsense. I get the impression to get this into the same class as with the religiouse thread. I don´t want such.

It´s just annoying.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

You cannot answer the questions. You cannot make any decent points. All you have done is claimed some games should be forbidden (banned), refused to elaborate, claimed you never said anything of the sort, then started with this line about parents not being responsible for their children.

Its amazing.

Like it or not, parents are legally responsible for their children. That is a simple, demonstrable fact. Go and argue with the government if you do not like it. Don't complain that children don't listen; its still a fact if they listen or not. Don't say parents cant stop children doing certain things, because they can; and usually its a lot easier to do so by talking to the child instead of shouting at them.

*edit*

I am NOT saying, Balschiow, that it is always easy or pleasant for parents to 'control' their children: BUT THEY ARE STILL RESPONSIBLE.*edit* *edit2* Thats responsible as in accountable; liable */edit2*

Don't claim, either, that games companies have some responsibility to tailor their games for an age range they ARE NOT SOLD TO.

[Major Fubar 0]

You all know that parents nowadays dont sit on your shoulder 24 hours a day. And you all know that most of your parents obviously don´t know wich games you play. Right ?

Sure they have responsibility, but game developers have a responsibility either so has the government, so have schools, so have media in general.

Or do you really believe that only parents are guilty for more than ever violence among children and teenagers ?

Quite frankly - yes.

Sure, I realise parent's can't keep a 24/7 watch on chidren, but I mean come on - if parent's did a decent job of teachning their children right from wrong, it woudn't even matter if the kids did have access to R-rated video games.

How about if a young child gets access to a can of petrol, and sets himself on fire? Is it the parents respnsiblity then? Or should they just be absolved again? Or perhaps they should have kept an eye on their child, and perhaps they should have had the petrol securely locked away...

It's endemic of the "if I sue someone my responsibility is absolved" generation around at the moment. No one wants to accept responsibiilty for anyhting anymore, they want a convenient scapegoat to waggle their finger at.