International Politics Thread

[theavonlady 2]

How did the sex-change surgery go? Did you recover well?  

I hope so, otherwise he's nichta hin nichta hehr.

[vektorboson 8]

denoir, u have called it great victory of demoracy. I'm calling it great failure. Why? Because it shows tha in EP there is no place for other views than one and only right one. And it is clear signal for everybody - "If u want to be somebody in EP, u have to have correct views".

And to clarify - i'm atheist and fully aggree that gays have to have eqyal rights. But not this way, because now it seems that any repressions against gay's r punished, and against ppl who thinks different r allowed and welcomed.

No. Those correct views include tolerance. I don't want somebody to have in the EP or commission, who is intolerant.

If someone says "homosexuality" is a sin, then it's clearly intolerance. Why should gays defend their sexual preference when they are not harming anyone but some middle age conservatives?

It was a huge victory for democracy - a victory for tolerance and a victory for the directly legitimated European Parliament. The Parliament shows it's no more a teethless tiger.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

How did the sex-change surgery go? Did you recover well?  

I hope so, otherwise he's nichta hin nichta hehr.

you mean "weder dies noch das"!

(neither this nor that)

[theavonlady 2]

How did the sex-change surgery go? Did you recover well?  

I hope so, otherwise he's nichta hin nichta hehr.

you mean "weder dies noch das"!

(neither this nor that)  

I used the Yiddish expression and I should have spelled it "herr".

[xawery 0]

I dont think being a homo is a sin or anything like that, i just think its wrong. And I AM entitled to my own opinion on any subject matter.

Yes, you can have your opinion and he can have his. The common thing however is that neither of you is representative for Europe and hence not an acceptable choice for the role as a commissioner for justice and human rights.

And here lies the rub, I'm afraid. According to a study (which I don't have a link to, saw it on tv) Buttiglione's views are in line with the views of a majority of EU citizens from all over East- and South-Europe.

This presents us with a dillemma - should we do what is right (ensuring that there is no gender- or sexual preference-discrimination), or what the majority wants?

Of course technically speaking the majority has had its chance to speak out when voting for the Europarliament, but that's beyond the point here. What we have here, is a commissioner in-spe, who has been rejected due the incompatibility of his beliefs with his proposed portfolio, while the majority of the EU citizens appears to hold the same beliefs. What do you think of them apples?

I have a clear view on this matter, but I'm asking this question because this issue has sparked some rather heated discussions here in the Netherlands.

[denoir 0]

denoir, u have called it great victory of demoracy. I'm calling it great failure. Why? Because it shows tha in EP there is no place for other views than one and only right one. And it is clear signal for everybody - "If u want to be somebody in EP, u have to have correct views".

And to clarify - i'm atheist and fully aggree that gays have to have eqyal rights. But not this way, because now it seems that any repressions against gay's r punished, and against ppl who thinks different r allowed and welcomed.

Vektorboson has already put it well, but here goes my comment anyway.

The lack of tolerance isn't symmetrical. Nobody is saying that Buttiglione is not entiteled to his opinions: he is. The question is if he is an acceptable choice that is representative for the EU citizens or not. That's where the EP comes in which is the directly elected body of the European Union. They directly represent the opinion of the people.

And that's where the great victory is - democracy over separate national interests. Berlusconi chose Buttiglione as a part of a internal Italian political deal - aimed to please his coalition partner. So to help Berlusconi to get re-elected, all Europeans would get a commissioner that has values that are not representative of the Europeans? Is that the way you think it's supposed to be?

One of the more serious arguments against the EU is the closed structure of the commission and the lack of oversight and accountability. The EP has shown now however that it can indeed bite and that the commission is quite accountable before it. This incident has been very bad news for the national politicians who are suddenly losing power in who they can assign to the commission. For the people however it is very good news as this has been abused for far too long for various high-level political deals. Europe in general has been taking the consequences of various petty local disputes and deals.

This current development will cut through many layers of political bullshit and force the national governments to choose commissioners that represent the people rather than the current self-serving interests of the politicians.

Xawery:

Quote[/b] ]

And here lies the rub, I'm afraid. According to a study (which I don't have a link to, saw it on tv) Buttiglione's views are in line with the views of a majority of EU citizens from all over East- and South-Europe.

They showed the results of an EU wide poll on Swedish TV yesterday. They said something like 23% supported Buttiglione, 60% wanted to get rid of him and the rest didn't care. Only in Italy, Poland and Malta there was a majority support for him. (Surprisingly in even Spain and Portugal a majority was against his appointment).

So I'm afraid your questions are based on incorrect assumptions.

As a more general question, my answer would be that the human rights (both European and UN) take preference over any political ideology, regardless of its popular support. Beyond that, it's up to the people.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]And here lies the rub, I'm afraid. According to a study (which I don't have a link to, saw it on tv) Buttiglione's views are in line with the views of a majority of EU citizens from all over East- and South-Europe.

What study was that? How can the majority believe Homosexuality is a sin when most are actually atheists, protestants (like me), which do not believe in the ultimate existance of deadly sins.

I am not an enemy of polls but pure logic tells me that is not true. Also, I may assume that about 50% of our population are female and hardly believe that the job of women is primarily to breed children.

As for germany and France I can assure you his opinion is not representing the general opinion. And I would bet my car for that.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Quote[/b] ]Malta

Pah, Malta is a tiny country with hardcore catholicism. In Malta it is still against the law to divorce and people do not trust anyone than the church. On the other hand I can assure you that Malta has a large percentage of homosexuals...(but also great girls ) it is a strange country with dusty rules but an open youth.

Malta would support any italian politician because Italy is the only country capable to represent Maltese interests. That is due to the strong economical links between the 2 countries.

[Blake 0]

All this mess could have been avoided had he just kept his mouth shut. How short-sighted, even for a politician.

[Grizzlie 0]

Albert, because Malta is timy country, their votes doesn't count?

denoir & vektorboson - if u r for not allowing intollerant ppl to have voice u r intollerant too, but on other subject.

Problem is u cannot force anobody to anything, if intollerant ppl does exist u have tolerate them, else u become same as them...

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Albert, because Malta is timy country, their votes doesn't count?

denoir & vektorboson - if u r for not allowing intollerant ppl to have voice u r intollerant too, but on other subject.

Problem is u cannot force anobody to anything, if intollerant ppl does exist u have tolerate them, else u become same as them...

Sure those votes count. But they cannot be considered as the average european opinion.

Everyone who ever lived in Malta would agree with me.

[xawery 0]

They showed the results of an EU wide poll on Swedish TV yesterday. They said something like 23% supported Buttiglione, 60% wanted to get rid of him and the rest didn't care. Only in Italy, Poland and Malta there was a majority support for him. (Surprisingly in even Spain and Portugal a majority was against his appointment).

So I'm afraid your questions are based on incorrect assumptions.

Hmm that's not the poll I am referring to - the study I meant looked at the people's stance on Buttiglione's ideas, not on the man himself. I'll try digging it up, kind of hard to make my point without any solid base.

Incidentally (and this is directed at Albert's post), do remember that Buttiglione's ideas went further then just homosexuality - they also included women's position in society etc. Also, please note that the results of the study pointed towards the south-eastern belt of the new EU, which (traditionally) has more conservative views on the role of the family than us northern libruhls. Now before someone strikes me down for generalising: I'm consciously simplifing matters somewhat to make my point.

[vektorboson 8]

Albert, because Malta is timy country, their votes doesn't count?

denoir & vektorboson - if u r for not allowing intollerant ppl to have voice u r intollerant too, but on other subject.

Problem is u cannot force anobody to anything, if intollerant ppl does exist u have tolerate them, else u become same as them...

Tolerance does not include tolerance towards intolerance.

If you tolerate intolerance then this is called "ignorance" and not tolerance.

As soon as we tolerate any intolerance, then it's only a small step that we also tolerate oppression.

It's basically like looking away if someone gets beaten up because of his skin color or his foreign accent.

Edit:

And btw. I don't forbid him to voice his opinion. He may voice his opinion as often as he wants, but you have to accept that we and the majority of the EP don't want him as a commissioner, especially one who is responsable for minorities.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Incidentally (and this is directed at Albert's post), do remember that Buttiglione's ideas went further then just homosexuality - they also included women's position in society etc.

Also, I may assume that about 50% of our population are female and hardly believe that the job of women is primarily to breed children.

thats what I said, yes!  

[xawery 0]

I know you said (wrote) that Albert, but I just cannot join you in your conviction that women in those regions do not view their roles in society as passive. Sure, in well-developed urban centres perhaps, but those hardly contain the majority of the population in those regions.

Anyway, this gets down to semantics mostly, so let's move on.

Here's a rather interesting article by Aleksander Smolar on the issues Europe will be faced with should Kerry be elected. Quite an interesting read, especially as it doesn't appear to be written in the trenches.

Quote[/b] ]Those whom the gods would destroy, they grant their wishes. Those in Europe and around the world who yearn for a victory by John Kerry in the US presidential election ought to keep that bit of ancient Greek wisdom in mind.

During the Cold War, America was the natural leader of the Atlantic community, but the price of this leadership was that the US had to accept the autonomy and influence of its European allies. After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, President Bush embarked on a unilateral foreign policy. The traditional Atlantic alliance was replaced by what the US called “coalitions of the willing†where “the mission determines the coalition†not historic alliances.

This policy divided Europe. It has also fuelled deep divisions in the US presidential campaign, with one of the most potent arguments used by Kerry being that he will restore trust between America and its allies; that as president he will recruit international help in Iraq.

America undoubtedly needs more allies to bring Iraq’s chaos under control and to build an Iraqi state that is seen as legitimate both by Iraqis and the world. Allies are seen as an answer to America’s twin credibility and legitimacy deficits in its occupation of Iraq. But can a Kerry-led US get a fresh start in Europe? Will a President Kerry really be able to rally allies to America’s side?

Iraq’s mayhem has hardened the antagonism of countries like France and Germany, which led the opposition to the war in the first place. Even countries that rallied to Bush’s call for help, like my homeland, Poland, are now wary of their involvement.

Consider the attitudes of France and Germany. Their leaders can scarcely hold their tongues, so badly do they want a Kerry victory. But they are not going to change their policy to help Kerry win, and they won’t change even if he does. As a gesture intending to boost Kerry’s chances, German Defence Minister Peter Struck suggested that his country might reconsider its position on troops in Iraq. But Chancellor Gerhard Schröder instantly shot down that trial balloon, declaring: “To be clear, we will send no troops to Iraq.â€

Actually, Germany, like most European countries, is politically and logistically unable to send meaningful military forces to Iraq. France, which did ponder sending 15,000 soldiers to Iraq had the UN given its blessing to the war, is as clear as Schröder. According to Michel Barnier, France’s foreign minister, “Neither today, nor tomorrow,†will French troops be sent. Both countries firmly believe that military success in Iraq is impossible.

So will transatlantic relations remain as poisoned as they are now if Kerry wins? Is Texas swagger merely to be replaced by the distinguished disdain of a Boston Brahmin? This is probably too pessimistic. Europe cannot give an openly negative answer to Kerry’s request for help, because that would be a slap in the face to the most pro-European American likely to be elected president anytime soon. Such a rejection would not only put transatlantic relations even more at risk than they are today; it would also put relations between European countries in peril.

So some compromise must be found should Kerry win. Fortunately, one is possible. The first part is purely face-saving: both parties must simply declare their good will. Today, European leaders are unlikely to throw even that slender lifeline to Bush. The reality behind such a declaration is that Europe would deliver low-level military and economic involvement in Iraq.

Most European leaders understand the tiny wiggle room that Kerry will have if elected. The near certainty that the House of Representatives will be in Republican hands, and perhaps the Senate, too, means that America’s Congress will pounce on any supposed attempt by Kerry to “sell out†Bush’s war. So Kerry may put even more pressure on Europe to help out in Iraq than the unilateralist Bush ever did.

But there is a second, more fundamental, part to any viable compromise: a redefinition of transatlantic relations. The key point here is joint recognition that a fundamental transatlantic community of values exists, and that both sides need each other. That transatlantic community must jointly feel responsible for maintaining peace and stability in the world.

The US must accept this principle, and recognise that Europe is a partner, not merely a servant, whether willing or unwilling, of American orders. If burdens are to be shared, decisions must be shared as well.

This will require that America recognise the validity of Europe’s view of the Israel-Palestinian conflict as the major roadblock toward a peaceful Middle East. Europe, for its part, must not only show that it feels responsible for the world, but that it is ready and willing to act accordingly by contributing in a significant way to reconstructing Iraq. Europe’s military means may be limited, but it has important experience in peacekeeping and “state building†that can be brought to bear.

Is Europe really ready to undertake such an effort if its wish for a Kerry victory comes true? — DT-PS

Aleksander Smolar is President of the Stefan Batory Foundation in Warsaw and Senior Researcher at the Centre National de la Recherche Scientifique in Paris

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Welcome abroad dear european fellows , hailho to a european constitution. Took us centuries of killing each other to finally learn that there are other ways to prosper.

it is signed and sealed!

[-33ker 0]

Quote[/b] ]Consider the attitudes of France and Germany. Their leaders can scarcely hold their tongues, so badly do they want a Kerry victory. But they are not going to change their policy to help Kerry win, and they won’t change even if he does. As a gesture intending to boost Kerry’s chances, German Defence Minister Peter Struck suggested that his country might reconsider its position on troops in Iraq. But Chancellor Gerhard Schröder instantly shot down that trial balloon, declaring: “To be clear, we will send no troops to Iraq.â€

Actually Struck said this week that Germany is willing to help rebuild Iraq and train Iraqi police and military. But OUTSIDE Iraq! So we won't send any troops, but will try to help.

[xawery 0]

Welcome abroad dear european fellows , hailho to a european constitution. Took us centuries of killing each other to finally learn that there are other ways to prosper.

it is signed and sealed!

Alas, we're not there yet... still 9 referanda to go:S

[Bordoy 0]

Most signs say the UK will have it in early 2006 so that means im old enough to vote and it will be a NO vote.

[vektorboson 8]

Welcome abroad dear european fellows , hailho to a european constitution. Took us centuries of killing each other to finally learn that there are other ways to prosper.

it is signed and sealed!

As much as I support an European constitution, I don't support this constitution. This is the constitution of our politicians and not the constitution of the people.

Unless there is a referendum about it in all European states which signed the constitution it's basically useless.

In the constitution of Germany it is said that only the German people may decide a new constitution. This is a new constitution and we may not decide over it.

Stupid paranoic politicians, they are afraid of the German people voting against the constitution.

What value does this constitution have then?

[Bordoy 0]

Is it really Illegal for a number plate to have a GB flag and say GB. Has it got to be a Euro flag and GB

http://www.rogers.cwc.net/DTF-History.html

[ran 0]

sure, you car will drive a lot worse

oh, I forgot ... you're too young to drive ...

[Bordoy 0]

sure, you car will drive a lot worse

oh, I forgot ... you're too young to drive ...

Ok, ill just get my dad or one of my two older brothers to drive.

Why would it drive worse? Surly it would be better without the EU flag.

[ran 0]

sure, you car will drive a lot worse

oh, I forgot ... you're too young to drive ...

Ok, ill just get my dad or one of my two older brothers to drive.

Why would it drive worse? Surly it would be better without the EU flag.

what does it change really ? it's not like if the rest of Europe forced you and your fellow countrymen to drive on the right side of the road all of a sudden, is it ?

Why don't you just paint yourself an union Jack on a door if you want to have it so bad on your car ?

[Bordoy 0]

sure, you car will drive a lot worse

oh, I forgot ... you're too young to drive ...

Ok, ill just get my dad or one of my two older brothers to drive.

Why would it drive worse? Surly it would be better without the EU flag.

what does it change really ? it's not like if the rest of Europe forced you and your fellow countrymen to drive on the right side of the road all of a sudden, is it ?

Why don't you just paint yourself an union Jack on a door if you want to have it so bad on your car ?

i dont,. Im just saying is it illegal like that site says? Then you start coming out with loads of crap.