"US Air Force fighter 'community' shaken"

[Thud_and_Blunder 0]

A snippet from Flight International 25-31 May 2004 to interest those who like to operate Footmunch's finest offerings:

"The (US)Air Force is meanwhile preparing to launch a major lobbying effort to support the F/A-22 programme, which is expected to cite the results of an air-to-air exercise staged between USAF F15Cs and Indian Air Force Su30MKs last February. Details of the engagements are still classified, but it is clear a poor showing by the F15C has shaken the Air Force's fighter pilot community. Service leaders have claimed that US-trained pilots in Sukhoi fighters usually defeat similar pilots in F15s and F16s, but now appear concerned that they have lost advantages in training and equipment. The exercise "certainly had us take a step back" says (Tyndall AFB commander) Brig Gen Larry New."

[Thud_and_Blunder 0]

Here, what happened to the capital letters I put in my title boxes?

[hellfish6 7]

It's some kind of board-enforced anti-caps thing to help prevent people from typing in all caps. I tried disabling it some time ago, but without luck.

[bucket man 2]

Well that was no suprise for me. Russian fighters have excellent maneurability and have best dogfight missiles on the world. Their long range missiles are quite not as good as AMRAAM's but good enough. Also they lack in radars compared to some western fighters.

I remember reading somewhere that in 10 miles of range or over F-18 has advantage over Su-27. In 5 miles they are pretty much equal and in shorter ranges F-18 really hasnt got any change to down the Su-27 unless it gets extremely lucky.

[Badgerboy 0]

There was a proposal a while back to equip the US Navy with Su27's under license, but with US engines and avionics. Strangely enough it got shelved immediatley.

Shame, the Sukhoi is a bloody fine peice of kit, and has an outstanding airframe.

[Tex -USMC- 0]

And the surprise is... what? The F-15C is 20+ year-old technology, and Boeing was releasing studies like this years ago: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/su-30mk.htm

Quote[/b] ]In May 2002 it was reported that studies in a Boeing simulator complex show that the Su-30MK can defeat an F-15C “every time†by using a combination beyond visual range (BVR) attack with an AA-12, followed by a close approach and attack with an IR-guided AA-11. The Su-30 penetrates the F-15’s Doppler radar net because it can rapidly dump speed to zero relative to the F-15, then attack from below and accelerate away. Similar tactics, say the analysts, would not work against an F-22 or F-35. The maneuver also requires great pilot skill, of a level very rare outside leading Western powers. It is also possible that the test is set up to justify purchase of the F-22 and F-35 along with various new air-to-air missiles. Critics point out that the maneuver will also not work against the F-16 and F-18, since with their smaller radar signatures they are not so vulnerable to the BVR portion of the attack.

Old news.

[Tovarish 0]

Actually, the Indian fighters that took part in the exersize last february were not their Su-30MK's, but the older baseline Su-30K's (no thrust vectoring, older avionics, ect). The US asked the Indians to include their Su-30MK's but they refused. Likewise, the Indians asked the US to bring the F-22, but that didn't happen. Like Tex said, the US military had publically acknowledged that they were worried about F-15's going up against Su-30MK's (in large part due to thrust vectoring, which would give it a great edge in dogfighting, and could also be used to fool Doppler Radar), but in this case, Su-30K's are not that different from standard Su-27's when it comes to air combat.

Some pictures of the event:

and here's a link to the proposal Badgerboy mentioned (this was proposed by a retired US Navy Admiral)

http://www.flightjournal.com/articles/su27/su27.asp

[aj_addons 0]

i cant say im suprised the mig 29 is also exceptionaly manovrable when things get in close

[Veovis 0]

The mig-29 isn't as good as the su-27 or su-30, IMO. What I would like to know is how well the su-37 performs.

[Badgerboy 0]

MiG 29 has no legs on it. The Sukhoi has a very large internal fuel supply.

[Tovarish 0]

What I would like to know is how well the su-37 performs.

Short answer - it doesn't exist anymore. The only Su-37 (711) was converted back to Su-35 standard and later crashed after a flight control system failure. The Su-35 is very much like a single seat Su-30MKI.

[hellfish6 7]

If I was making an air force, I'd buy SU-27s and the associated variants. They seem to be exceptionally versatile.

[ozanzac 0]

If I was making an air force, I'd buy SU-27s and the associated variants. They seem to be exceptionally versatile.

Not to mention extraordinarily cheap for an air-superiority fighter.

[Tovarish 0]

I have some great videos of most of the Flanker variants out there, as well as the initial prototypes and some videos of practice bombing and shooting down drones, but they are around 40 megs a piece (11 videos in all), and I have dial up and no place to host something that hefty .

[Placebo 29]

Here, what happened to the capital letters I put in my title boxes?  

Worked for me

[S_Z 0]

I have some great videos of most of the Flanker variants out there, as well as the initial prototypes and some videos of practice bombing and shooting down drones, but they are around 40 megs a piece (11 videos in all), and I have dial up and no place to host something that hefty .

I also have them or at least 10 of them, never seen the number 6 video anywhere to be downloaded. What is the nr 6 video about?

They are great videos, high quality. I tried to find a link to them but every link I have found so far has been down.

Edit: I think you still can download them through Bittorrent here(scroll down a bit): http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/6....433&p=3

I believe he(Hubsu) zipped them to one big file so its a pretty big download if you dont have a good connection. Well worth it though if you like the russian Su fighters.

[Tovarish 0]

The 6th video, like the 7th is about the Su-35/37. (The title of the video is Su-35, but it starts off with the Su-37 prototype 711, and ends with an Su-35 numbered 709)

Video 1 - Su-27 in combat action

Video 2 - prototypes and early variants

Video 3 - Su-27SK

Video 4 - Su-33

Video 5 - Su-27KUB

Video 6 - Su35

Video 7 - Su35/37

Video 8 - Su-35UB

Video 9 - Su-30MK

Video 10 - Test Pilots aerobatic team

Video 11 - Russian Knights aerobatic team

[S_Z 0]

The 6th video, like the 7th is about the Su-35/37. (The title of the video is Su-35, but it starts off with the Su-37 prototype 711, and ends with an Su-35 numbered 709)

Thanks, I think I found that one too. I had downloaded it separately and the file had another name. It has a bit worse quality then the other ones though  Its only a 12 Mb file, the others are 30 – 50Mb most of them.

[Tovarish 0]

My copy's 33.44mb

[S_Z 0]

Im downloading the videos from the bittorrent link right now, I hope it includes a higher quality number 6 video.

[Tovarish 0]

Either way, If you've seen the Su-33 video You've seen the best of the series I think. Carrier take off and landing, an Su-33 refueling another in mid air, some good maneuvering, Nice HUD and EKRAN shots, and good music to go with it

[S_Z 0]

Either way, If you've seen the Su-33 video You've seen the best of the series I think. Carrier take off and landing, an Su-33 refueling another in mid air, some good maneuvering, Nice HUD and EKRAN shots, and good music to go with it

Yeah, I agree

[Thud_and_Blunder 0]

Quote[/b] ]Quote (Thud_and_Blunder @ May 24 2004,22:29)

Here, what happened to the capital letters I put in my title boxes?

Worked for me

PlAcEbO - sometimes you're just that little bit too cruel, even for OFP! Now, can I have my headline back, neatly, capitals where appropriate, as I wrote it? Pretty please?!

[S_Z 0]

I finished downloading the big zip file with all Su-family videos and it included a high quality version of the number 6 video so I’m happy but unfortunately it didn’t include a complete number 4 video which is the one about Su-33 (the best one). It’s only 1:44 min (18Mb) and the version I have is 3:10 min (33Mb)…

[Tovarish 0]

PlAcEbO - sometimes you're just that little bit too cruel, even for OFP!  Now, can I have my headline back, neatly, capitals where appropriate, as I wrote it?  Pretty please?!

And maybe change Su-30MK to Su-30K since it's as big a difference if not more as the F-15A and F-15C .

Just so you can see I'm not talking out of my ass:

Quote[/b] ]

2/24/2004 - GWALIOR AIR FORCE STATION, India (AFPN) -- Residents who live in the nearby city of Gwalior are accustomed to the sounds of fighter-jet operations -- the noise of takeoff, landings and sonic booms. But the roar of U.S. Air Force F-15 Eagle aircraft in the sky above this north central Indian air force station is something completely new.

The Eagles and about 130 U.S. airmen are in India supporting Cope India ‘04 through Feb. 25, the first bilateral dissimilar air combat training exercise held between U.S. and Indian air forces in more than 40 years.

Following two days of familiarization flights, the F-15s joined the Indian SU-30K Flanker, Mirage 2000, MIG-29 Fulcrum, MIG-27 Flogger and MIG-21 Bison aircraft in a series of offensive counter-air and defensive counter-air engagements.

Indian Air Force web page