The things they do in the name of religion

[ozanzac 0]

Points taken.

You choose to ignore part of my post, so I shall repost it.

Quote[/b] ]Do you try to restrain yourself from bursting out with 'religion is utter crap' statements from the risk of offending those that do celebrate such events (with a religious focus).

Are there religious people in your life? How do you deal with them, without raising your complete opposition to religion? Do you tolerate others choices to observe a religion, or do you try to 'educate' them. If so, do you do it in a polite manner? If you do, what makes these forums so different?

[Scorpio 0]

Baron - dude, I'm gonna try to say this in the friendliest possible way...

IMO, both religious extremists and atheist extremists are utterly annoying and only do harm instead of good.

Choosing to just come up to people and say that their whole religious experiences are a bunch of total bullshit because they are retarded and are not fully educated is a very bad choice to make.

I have nothing against atheists. Many of my friends are atheists and I fully understand them. But they don't go around trying to cram their ideas into peoples minds like dictators, do they?

I like having peaceful discussions like this with reasonable people like Denoir, but when somebody like you comes in goes:

"Don't talk nonsense. Go to school." to somebody like Ex-Ronin, I find it both offensive and amusing.

You are being quite hypocritical in your statements, and also I fear you cold-bloodedly hurt shiRaiden's feelings for his religion - he says he had a unique religious experience - that doesn't make him crazy. Quite the opposite. I've heard from a lot of people the same thing and even I have. If you don't believe us, then don't. But you do not have the power to just say that we didn't have that experience. You are not a 'supernatural being'.

To sum it up, if people want to believe something that may be untrue in your eyes, then boohoo. You can't change that by just cramming your version down their throats.

Have a nice day.

E: F00kin typos - they're rebelling against me.

[m21man 0]

Quote[/b] ]And holidays and celebrations, including giving gifts for the winter solstice, are great fun without having to sit listening to some boring cunt preach at you.

I may be an atheist, but I'm never this abrasive .

Quote[/b] ]Do you stand on the outside looking in, burning within as why any country would allow for a public holiday over something as in your view, as trivial as a religious event.

Nothing wrong with the holidays, I just view them as a time to receive pointless knick-knacks.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Christ - mas ?

Winter- Solstice?

Same time as Xmas??

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Points taken.

You choose to ignore part of my post, so I shall repost it.

Sorry, that was because I already mentioned in this thread my attitude to these things IRL.

Summarily:

IRL I do not bother religious people as long as they don't force things on me. I am quite happy for them to do whatever they like in the privacy of their own homes/ churches/ mosques whatever. I will not burst in and shout at them that they are stupid.

There are very few religious people that I know, I live in a modern, rational country. Most people are irreligious or atheist.

I do have some religious friends, and it is not an issue. I also was good friends with an Army padre in training before he joined a different unit.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Baron - dude, I'm gonna try to say this in the friendliest possible way...

IMO, both religious extremists and atheist extremists are utterly annoying and only do harm instead of good.

Choosing to just come up to people and say that their whole religious experiences are a bunch of total bullshit because they are retarded and are not fully educated is a very bad choice to make.

I do not do that. This is an internet forum; we can exchange opinions frankly and fully.

Quote[/b] ]

I have nothing against atheists. Many of my friends are atheists and I fully understand them. But they don't go around trying to cram their ideas into peoples minds like dictators, do they?

Neither do I

Quote[/b] ]

I like having peaceful discussions like this with reasonable people like Denoir, but when somebody like you comes in goes:

"Don't talk nonsense. Go to school." to somebody like Ex-Ronin, I find it both offensive and amusing.

And when people say something that is TOTALLY nonsense I tell them so. The comment from ex ronin was completely untrue.

Quote[/b] ]

You are being quite hypocritical in your statements, and also I fear you cold-bloodedly hurt shiRaiden's feelings for his religion - he says he had a unique religious experience - that doesn't make him crazy.

Is that just because it was a 'religious experience'? If he believed he had an experience with aliens or ghosts would you treat it the same way? Sorry, but I think THAT is hypocritical, treating delusions specially just 'because they are religious.'

Quote[/b] ]

Quite the opposite. I've heard from a lot of people the same thing and even I have. If you don't believe us, then don't. But you do not have the power to just say that we didn't have that experience. You are not a 'supernatural being'.

I'm not saying you didn't think you had an experience. I'm saying two things:

1) Personal experience is not valid evidence or 'reason' for someone else to believe you.

2) You could just be hallucination or self deluded - you would not know the difference.

A common phenomenon known as 'Night Hags' was responsible for the mythical succubi. Demonic women who came into your room at night, paralysed you and attempted to seduce you. In recent times these are sometimes also 'alien encounters.' But in actuality it is just a sleep disorder where you sort of regain consciousness while your body is asleep. Its the same kind of thing.

Quote[/b] ]

To sum it up, if people want to believe something that may be untrue in your eyes, then boohoo. You can't change that by just cramming your version down their throats.

And strangely enough, that is not what I'm doing. I'm telling them that their belief is just that; a belief. It's not a fact, its not 'true' - its just a belief. Lots of people in this thread treat beliefs as if they are 'true.' That is what I rail against.

Quote[/b] ]

Have a nice day.

Night, but you too.

[igor drukov 0]

The main object of religion is to give a meaning to one’s life. Where do I come from ? Why do I live ? Where will I go ? Many people, and I am one of them, just can not live without at least trying to answer those questions.

Sciences tell me that I am a combination of cells, fine. But they will never tell me what I should or should not do with my life, they will never tell me why it is so that I have instincts or even sometimes rational thoughts, that I MUST not obey.

Let’s take a few of Albert Schweizer’s examples.

Having sex with every fertile female in her teens is both instinctive and rational.

Insulting those who don't think like you is instinctive.

Killing the old, who live off our work, who are both improductive and barren, is rational.

Creating a clone of oneself to use as a spare-part storing device is rational.

Eugenism is rational.

The genocide in Rwanda was rational for the Hutu leaders.

And so on.

It is obvious to me that religions help draw the line between good and evil, that one of their primary objectives is to try to make us live together.

Yes, murders have been, and are still, committed in their behalfs.

Yes, religion as a whole has stood, and sometimes still stands, in the way of sciences.

That is because none of us is perfect, because the inner violence, pride and selfishness contained somewhere in our cells is too often given destructive outlets. We can all fail. Most true pious –those that separate politics, sciences and religion with a CLEAR line- at least care and try.

People –mostly atheists- who watch religions and their believers often see them as a mere bunch of illuminated people. I am a Catholic, I can tell you I would be very worried about my mental health if I ever happened to see an angel by my nightstand. My FAITH does not require me to SEE anything. I am not looking for a PROOF that God exists. I just know that if everyone did love their neighbour, with their faults and their qualities, that is, for what they are, this world would be a way more pleasant place to live in.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Acecombat-

Quote[/b] ]I somehow cant imagine someone standing in the middle with snow falling around with a scornful look on his face while looking at the Xmas tree

Oh, youve never been to Scotland?

Chistmas is so expensive, im surprised is hasnt been cancelled there (speaking as someone with a Scottish father, before i get called a racist or somesuch).

Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX- For a while when your tone was merely highly condescending (rather than abrasively dismissive to the point of offensiveness) i started to think (happily) that people were beginning to attack and feel threatened by your challenges of their ideas and persistent outlining of perhaps uncomfortable facts, rather than your (usually) crude and inneffective means of self expression. However, you soon succeeded in reestablishing your usual contemptuous style. A pity.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

Lets see if we can keep it civil,

Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX- It is precisely because religion and science cater to very different aspects of the human experience  that, as you see it, no one can answer your question on what religion helps us 'find out' or 'prove'. You seem to be attempting to apply rigorous scientific methods to the heart of the religious experience. Yet how can you scientifically measure the level of meaning in a persons life given by their belief in a divine benefactor, much less what feelings of transcendent spirituality might mean to a persons understanding of their place in the universe.? You might at most be working on some model provided by Psychology (a rather incomplete 'science' at the best of times). In short its sheer folly. You regard as irrelevant or nonsense the very core of meaningful religious experience among the faithful because it exceeds what you judge to be the acceptable level of deviation from the scientifically supportable explanations and because of the inherently personal and so relatively untestable and unrepeatable nature of the experience.

Because religious belief is ultimately a personal experience, what a religion helps people find out is quite simply whatever people say it has helped them find out. E.g. that God will help them, that all things have a greater meaning and significance, that there is a life after death in which they will be judged, or the deepest truths of the self etc. This 'finding out' is not as far as i can see of a very scientific nature. It is a process of mental discovery as much as anything and is generally quite untestable. It is above all, personal, and so general laws and theories are not necessarily at all relevant. Whether you or i choose to believe in another persons perceptions and experiences is probably quite irrelevant to him or her (though i cant help wondering as a default atheist whether a bit of this is a subconscious fear on the part of the believer that their nice dreams will be revealed as just that.)

Almost all religious beliefs explaining natural phenomena have been comprehensively superseded by superior scientific explanations, still other religious beliefs relating to morals have been replaced by the modern laws of the state (though in many places old religious notions of right and wrong still hold), some beliefs though are more general and less specific (so as to be difficult to prove or disprove) and some deal with ideas that lie in their conception quite outside of scientific methodology, being unobservable, untestable, personal and specific. In my opinion, in most religions this type of belief (though perhaps less obvious than a belief about the eating of pigs for example) constitutes the essential leap of faith necessary to distinguish a true believer from a non believer.

Everyone responds to the world around them differently and some see or feel a desire for greater meaning beyond that provided by any secular explanation for the existence of the universe and the individual within it. This doesnt make them morons. No two people have the same experiences so why should we expect all to agree about the fundamental nature of experience and reality or the criteria by which believability should be judged? Some think it is preposterous that the universe might exist without a reason. Whilst the increasing complexity, sophistication and interconnectedness of scientific explanations are starting to infringe on the territory of the eternal 'why' it remains the case that beyond the humble stage within which we can observe and test scientifically there remains a great unknown or series of unknowns to which science is not now an answer.  

You have said without caveat "religion does not make people feel better", not wishing to take a leaf from your book, that is like saying 'watching TV does not entertain people' . Self evidently this is not true. Is TV the best form of entertainment? That is debatable but it is indisputably one form. Similarly, true religious belief is a phenomena that can and does make people feel better. Religion is indeed predicated upon faith, it asks for time, sometimes money, or other greater sacrifices. From this we can deduce that people must feel they are getting something in return. What is gained varies from person to person of course but is frequently expressed in terms of pleasure and of feelings better than those experienced before they first embarked upon religious devotions. Perhaps you have not after all heard of religion being the opiate of the masses.

Personally, from my own observations i believe belief gives people an untouchable hope and inner source of happiness. I sometimes wish i could believe in an afterlife and a benevolent creator God watching over us, its a great idea. Unfortunately it seems rather unconvincing to me.

So you ask 'what is the usefulness of it (religion)' and i say WHATEVER YOU CAN MAKE OF IT. If nothing then so be it, but what you seem singularly incapable of understanding is that everyone has a different and unique criteria of belief and some can make use of religious beliefs positively in life. Certainly some people (most people in my experience) are just being foolish and unthoughtful but others have an intelligent and reasoned belief in something beyond what is apparent. As long as theses views do not cause them to negatively interfere with others then i do not begrudge them this small joy. If you and i are right Baron and this life is but a little glint of light between two great and endless shadows (my general if not absolute belief) then dont you think we might at least try to live happily? The breadth of human experience in great and if some can delude themselves into feeling that this life is only the beginning and that a God is watching over them, and if these same nice beliefs allow them to die with a smile on their face then (rather than compare them to children or idiots) i would say, good for them.

I dont believe or follow any religion but i certainly believe the human experience is bigger than science and what science (after all only a tool) can show us (a view which you have also professed to hold though i see little evidence of any toleration for human experience outside of the rational and deductive).

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I would like someone to answer a very simple question.

If you knew someone who was convinced that they were being abducted by aliens every night, to have sex with beautiful alien females, and was quite happy about it, what would you do?*

Now, what if that person started telling others about this and charging them admittance to his house; where he said if they truly believed in aliens they would also get abducted.

What would you do then?

Now, what if that person was a teacher and started teaching your children (/siblings) that they could have sex with beautiful alien women if they gave him some money.

What would you do then?

*there is no evidence, at all, to support his claims, in this example.

*edit*

Just answer the questions. Then we can talk about why and wherefors and you can claim that its not a fair comparison later.

[brgnorway 0]

I would like someone to answer a very simple question.

If you knew someone who was convinced that they were being abducted by aliens every night, to have sex with beautiful alien females, and was quite happy about it, what would you do?*

Now, what if that person started telling others about this and charging them admittance to his house; where he said if they truly believed in aliens they would also get abducted.

What would you do then?

Now, what if that person was a teacher and started teaching your children (/siblings) that they could have sex with beautiful alien women if they gave him some money.

What would you do then?

*there is no evidence, at all, to support his claims, in this example.

*edit*

Just answer the questions.  Then we can talk about why and wherefors and you can claim that its not a fair comparison later.

I'd treat him as if he was insane. However, there's a difference between insanity and religion. Insanity is dealt with by psychology and psychiatry - and religion is not.

Knowledge about other things in life than those that can be measured and recorded in a strict "scientific" way belong to the "other sciences" such as Humaniora. History is a great example. You don't believe in historical interpretations I take it?

How can your "naturalistic inspired science" explain and understand the Baktaman tribe of Papa New Guinea, or the "scottishness of being scottish" ? Being a Baktaman tribesman or the significanse of being scottish is after all a result of imagined community - an identity! It's not "real" - it's not a thing you can meassure or record, it's all in our heads and between our heads!

How can your science explain cultural differences between various societies?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

*Albert* falls of his chair laughing, hits his haid and starts crying while still laughing. Spills his red wine and wakes up the entire house because of a mixture of coughing red wine, crying, and laughing!  

BTW: my behaviour was against you Baron (not at all I assure you) the comment itself was funny on its own!

[Harnu 0]

I would like someone to answer a very simple question.

If you knew someone who was convinced that they were being abducted by aliens every night, to have sex with beautiful alien females, and was quite happy about it, what would you do?*

Now, what if that person started telling others about this and charging them admittance to his house; where he said if they truly believed in aliens they would also get abducted.

What would you do then?

Now, what if that person was a teacher and started teaching your children (/siblings) that they could have sex with beautiful alien women if they gave him some money.

What would you do then?

*there is no evidence, at all, to support his claims, in this example.

*edit*

Just answer the questions.  Then we can talk about why and wherefors and you can claim that its not a fair comparison later.

I'd treat him as if he was insane. However, there's a difference between insanity and religion. Insanity is dealt with by psychology and psychiatry - and religion is not.

Knowledge about other things in life than those that can be measured and recorded in a strict "scientific" way belong to the "other sciences" such as Humaniora. History is a great example. You don't believe in historical interpretations I take it?

How can your "naturalistic inspired science" explain and understand the Baktaman tribe of Papa New Guinea, or the "scottishness of being scottish" ? Being a Baktaman tribesman or the significanse of being scottish is after all a result of imagined community - an identity! It's not "real" - it's not a thing you can meassure or record, it's all in our heads and between our heads!

How can your science explain cultural differences between various societies?

The point I got out of Barons post isn't just about someone being deemed 'insane' for thinking different than the norm.

But that say someone with radical ideas, like Baron's example of sleeping with aliens, were to start teaching this to people, and then their children. Children are gullible, they do not have the life experience or knowledge to think otherwise.  A perfect actual example is the "Boogie Man".  I've known a few parents to say to their children such things as if they do not eat their vegetables, the boogie man is going to get them.  And sometimes, also depending on the age of the children, they believe them.

Now what if someone begins "educating" young children that if they follow the norm and specific set rules of the ideology being taugt, they will live eternal happieness in the clouds with the ability to do whatever they desire.  But if they do not follow the rules as the teachers desire, they are to spend eterenety in a place of swelling heat and being poked by demons, forever.  (Or beign neck deep in dirt never to move, etc etc.)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Oh come on, you know me since quite a while now. i believe in god and still are very open minded and I am probably representing the mayority of protestants around europe. My parents are pretty much atheists, my school was a very strict religious school and still I remained an atheist untill the age of 21. Something terrible happened in my life and religion was one of the things that helped me out. I will never force my children to go to school. I wont force chrisitanity upon them. I will not come along and teach them all sorts of prayer. But in case they are afraid of the dark I might tell them that there is someone watching them while they sleep. That isnt brainwashing, that is simply called care. I feel pressured into the extreme corner here even though I am very liberal and antiauthoritative.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

In order for Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX use of abduction by sexy aliens to be a reasonable metaphor for religion we must make a few alterations.

For example we must suppose that this someone lives in a society where there have been many such alien abduction beliefs (or related beliefs in extra terrestrials) for thousands of years. We might suppose (though this is not essential) that there is some ancient text relating to abduction by said alien babes. We might suppose that instead of their body physically being abducted every night (an essential tenet of their belief which would be measurable and easy to test) they claim that e.g. their mind (or soul) is abducted into space every night when they sleep. Immediatly, whilst still extraordinary, the claims of this someone are starting to take on a little more of the subtlety typical of todays religious belief.

I think in all honesty, as long as this person did not appear dangerous to me i would be happy for them with their fantastic ideas.

When they started telling others and charging admittance to their house i would be suspicious (though such behaviour would probably be an established social practice) but there are few religions which make donations compulsory (except as part of some practical social framework)

Then id tell my kids to stay away and attempt to teach them to think critically and id tell this someone to stop approaching my kids until they were old enough to decide for themselves (+over the legal age of consent). Then we could all live happily ever after until the alien babes came to collect us.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

I'd treat him as if he was insane. However, there's a difference between insanity and religion. Insanity is dealt with by psychology and psychiatry - and religion is not.

I shall continue ignoring your trolling after this, since now you have answered at least in part honestly.

How can you claim this man is insane? He sincerely believes what he says. You cannot prove he is insane. How can you say his stongly held beliefs are the product of insanity, while those of someone who believes he speaks to god are not?

Hypocrite.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Quote[/b] ]In order for Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX use of abduction by sexy aliens to be a reasonable metaphor for religion we must make a few alterations.

For example we must suppose that this someone lives in a society where there have been many such alien abduction beliefs (or related beliefs in extra terrestrials) for thousands of years.

No we don't. Religions have to start somewhere. They all started small like this. Living in a society with such beliefs has nothing to do with this question.

Quote[/b] ]

We might suppose (though this is not essential) that there is some ancient text relating to abduction by said alien babes.

No, we must suppose that the man CLAIMS that there is an ancient text relating to abduction by said alien babes. Slightly different.

Quote[/b] ]

We might suppose that instead of their body physically being abducted every night (an essential tenet of their belief which would be measurable and easy to test) they claim that e.g. their mind (or soul) is abducted into space every night when they sleep.

No, we must not. His belief is that he physically is abducted into space, but that the aliens will not abduct him while anyone is watching.

Quote[/b] ]

Immediatly, whilst still extraordinary, the claims of this someone are starting to take on a little more of the subtlety typical of todays religious belief.

Because you are changing them

Quote[/b] ]

I think in all honesty, as long as this person did not appear dangerous to me i would be happy for them with their fantastic ideas.

When they started telling others and charging admittance to their house i would be suspicious (though such behaviour would probably be an established social practice)

In this case, it is not. It is not commonly accepted at all.

Quote[/b] ]

but there are few religions which make donations compulsory (except as part of some practical social framework)

Stop with the religion comparision and answer the questions honestly, please.

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Then id tell my kids to stay away and attempt to teach them to think critically and id tell this someone to stop approaching my kids until they were old enough to decide for themselves (+over the legal age of consent). Then we could all live happily ever after until the alien babes came to collect us.

Which is EXACTLY what I would do.

[shinRaiden 0]

I don't blindly believe in the bogeyman. I had a nightlight as a kid so I could keep surveilance on my room to confirm that there was no bogeyman. (I'd obviously not considered what might happen while I was asleep)

When ever I lost a tooth as a kid (and told my mom) she'd tell me to put it under my pillow for the tooth fairie, who always came. One time I decided to test the tooth fairie, and didn't tell anybody. Considering the volume of teeth lost daily, the tooth fairie would obviously have to preschedule her pickups. I left the tooth under the pillow everynight for a week. No money. I still have the tooth some ~dozen years later.

I always suspected Mom and Dad were helping Santa, heck, Grandma and Grandpa openly bragged about. So one year my brothers and I launched a sting operation that stretched nearly half the year. We clandestinely copied every reciept and noted the shopping trips. We accounted for every present that year not counting mailed stuff from relatives, and we thought that was the coolest thing busting mom and dad. Somebody leaked though, and we've never been able to nail down all the receipts ever since then.

My religion is my relationship between me and God, and that's it. When I shared the Good Word, the way I taught was exclusively focused on their own internal relationships. I was like the Snapon tools guy, come by your place and offer you tools for your own use. Of course, I'd argue that mine were better than the Mactools guy's stuff, but having proved them myself, thats how I could confidently offer what I had by challenging people to put it to the test themselves.

All religions focus on the 'spiritual' development of the self. If it has made me a better person, why should you knock it? Do you want me to be a worse person? Do you want me to call you what I think of you? I don't because religion tells me that I have no right to impose on you or demean you, something that in your anti-religious state rationally are liberated of.

Where the problems have come in is where various groups of all faiths have split from their beliefs, and sought to purge the world of the stain of infidels. The infidels sin against themselves, not you. Go mind your own business, and worship your God, even if it is yourself.

The way I understand and believe, religion and faith are things that can not be compeled. Thus, even if Christ showed up and shook his fist in your face, you still have the liberty to decide what you are going to do about it, regardless of how many others are around and observing. It's your future, you make the most of it with your limited means, I'll make mine with my own.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

Answer the question please.

[Baron Hurlothrumbo IIX 0]

The main object of religion is to give a meaning to one’s life. Where do I come from ? Why do I live ? Where will I go ? Many people, and I am one of them, just can not live without at least trying to answer those questions.

No, that would be Philosophy and Ethics. Are you saying that all atheists / irreligious don't want to answer these questions? Because that is both insulting and wrong.

Quote[/b] ]

Sciences tell me that I am a combination of cells, fine. But they will never tell me what I should or should not do with my life, they will never tell me why it is so that I have instincts or even sometimes rational thoughts, that I MUST not obey.

Science can tell you why you have instincts and thoughts. Rational thought tells you that you should treat others as you would like to be treated.

Quote[/b] ]

Let’s take a few of Albert Schweizer’s examples.

Having sex with every fertile female in her teens is both instinctive and rational.

It is instinctive, it is not rational. We have intelligence, we don't need to follow our instincts. We can use intelligence to guide our ethics.

Quote[/b] ]

Insulting those who don't think like you is instinctive.

Killing the old, who live off our work, who are both improductive and barren, is rational.

It is instinctive, it is not rational. We have intelligence, we don't need to follow our instincts. We can use intelligence to guide our ethics..

Quote[/b] ]

Creating a clone of oneself to use as a spare-part storing device is rational.

Creating a clone of single organs, or of the whole body but without a brain, is rational. Intentionally making an intelligent human being to use as spare parts (which noone has seriously suggested, BTW) is not rational. We have intelligence, we don't need to follow our instincts. We can use intelligence to guide our ethics.

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Eugenism is rational.

No it isn't.

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The genocide in Rwanda was rational for the Hutu leaders.

No it wasn't.

Quote[/b] ]

It is obvious to me that religions help draw the line between good and evil, that one of their primary objectives is to try to make us live together.

Do you realise that you are being incredibly insulting not just to me (I don't really care) but to every other free-thinker are irreligious person? You are saying that people without religion are sub-human - psychopaths.

Religion is not needed, in any way, for ethics or morality. Neither stem from religion, in fact religon sometimes stems from them. Chimps act with morality (although they are as susceptible to violence as humans) but they have no religion.

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Yes, murders have been, and are still, committed in their behalfs.

Yes, religion as a whole has stood, and sometimes still stands, in the way of sciences.

Always still stands in the way.

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That is because none of us is perfect, because the inner violence, pride and selfishness contained somewhere in our cells is too often given destructive outlets. We can all fail. Most true pious –those that separate politics, sciences and religion with a CLEAR line- at least care and try.

We are all human beings. We are all able of thinking about our actions before we do them... unless we are extremely delusional (and I'm not talking specifically about religion there.)

Quote[/b] ]

People –mostly atheists- who watch religions and their believers often see them as a mere bunch of illuminated people. I am a Catholic, I can tell you I would be very worried about my mental health if I ever happened to see an angel by my nightstand. My FAITH does not require me to SEE anything. I am not looking for a PROOF that God exists. I just know that if everyone did love their neighbour, with their faults and their qualities, that is, for what they are, this world would be a way more pleasant place to live in.

Much like the last time when everyone was a catholic, the Dark Ages. Yes, when everyone was catholic, the world was a bastion of peace, tranquility and scientific advancement....

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]But that say someone with radical ideas, like Baron's example of sleeping with aliens, were to start teaching this to people, and then their children. Children are gullible, they do not have the life experience or knowledge to think otherwise.

Yes, children are very easy to form. That is what childhood is all about. And cognitively a childs experience will form knowledge about behavior that will influence - but not determine future behaviour. But what is wrong with that! Do you seriously believe a madman/preacher comes along and turns everything upside down? A society is a community where there's a general acceptance on norms, ideas and identities. Even communism didn't wipe out religious belief in Russia during all those years! Communism was just as rational as science - and just as ideologic as religion. My point is that values and norms change over time because they are institutionalized in a society.

To get back to your example - a person with charismatic abilities or like Max Weber would have said: charismatic leadership - will always recruit followers. Sects are perfect examples, but they are sects and not whole societies so there's nothing to worry about - unless the hamish take over Washington hehe. On the other hand, this has nothing to do with religion per se, but with manipulating by leadership. Remember what took place in Germany in the 30's and 40's !

The disasterous ingredients where many - including religion, nationalism, and ideas very much a result of the then modern science.

My point is that the nutcase with the slight weir ideas could just as well preach about science. Madmen are to be found in all layers of society - and some have done immense cruelties in the name of science.

Quote[/b] ]A perfect actual example is the "Boogie Man".  I've known a few parents to say to their children such things as if they do not eat their vegetables, the boogie man is going to get them.  And sometimes, also depending on the age of the children, they believe them.

This is not extraordinary! This happens all the time. Parents care for their children and do what they feel is best. Too bad!

Consider this then: I've read in the newspapers that children have been seriously sick from too much consumption of vitamines that their parents had forced down their throat. Children usually don't like to eat vitamins, but the parents thought it was good because scientists had told them in newpapers etc.

Quote[/b] ]

Now what if someone begins "educating" young children that if they follow the norm and specific set rules of the ideology being taugt, they will live eternal happieness in the clouds with the ability to do whatever they desire.  But if they do not follow the rules as the teachers desire, they are to spend eterenety in a place of swelling heat and being poked by demons, forever.  (Or beign neck deep in dirt never to move, etc etc.)

Well, what can I say!

Allthough this in some instances could happen, I'd would also suggest it's smart to learn from history of modernism and progression. Just think about the positivism of the period before the Great War? How good wasn't life going to be: enough food, work and happiness in our life. All due to technical innovation and progress - so much a result of people's hopes for "science galore" . It pretty much ended in 1918.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Oh Baron, there you jsut made a slight mistake. Intelligence would teach you that old people are a waste of resources and girls at the age of 14 are ready for reproduction. Now what makes you stop from killing the first and raping the second is not because of your instincts either, but it is because of your ethics. And what do you think, historical wise, is the base of the ethics of the western world?

And back to my example. When something terribly happened in my life, neither it was you who was there for me, nor my friends, but I didnt need you or my friends but was able to cope with it myself. And it wasnt god who supported me (I am not a fundamentalist) it was my brain and my belief that helped me out. Things could have turned out worse for me, much worse! So you neglecting the usefullness of religion makes me feel like you are neglecting what actually saved me to a certain extent!

[brgnorway 0]

Quote[/b] ]I shall continue ignoring your trolling after this...

LOL - you've already said it once so why should I believe you?

Quote[/b] ]How can you claim this man is insane?  He sincerely believes what he says.  You cannot prove he is insane.  How can you say his stongly held beliefs are the product of insanity, while those of someone who believes he speaks to god are not?

What makes you think people see others as weird or insane?

It's not science - even though it's a concept that comes from science - but other people's judgement about behavior that's not normal.

Quote[/b] ]Hypocrite

Wanker!

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

Seriously, who would have thought that a simple thread about religion would become more heated than a topic on gunlaws, middle east conflict, the US election, the iraq-war, the best military in the world and the issue about who produces the best beer in the world?

Answers to the threads

gunlaws: germany has the best gunlaws

middle east conflict: germany has the best attitude

US election: Kerry likes germany so Kerry should win

Iraq war: germany was agains it so US is wrong

beer: well guess.. germany of course!

[m21man 0]

I would like to add to the Sexpots From Outer Space Theory. This would be a more appropriate analogy if getting sex from human women was completely impossible (Note that I said completely impossible ). This would cause many men to believe in said aliens, giving them the assurance that someday, somewhere, they would get laid.

Quote[/b] ]gunlaws: germany has the best gunlaws

America does    

Quote[/b] ]beer: well guess.. germany of course!

I'd rather have a Heineken